Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[Veladarius]

2 hours ago, Hanshurtig11 said:

Do i understand right, that, as soon as the item is applied it uses the settings in MCM ? And changing the settings later will only affect Items that are attached after change ?

So if you got bound in a device with setting set to high difficulty, the difficulty for THAT Item does not change, even if you change the setting in MCM to low difficulty ?

Regards and thx for all your work.

 

From the sounds of things, yes. From what I gather the settings are adopted by the device properties upon being equipped at which point you can't change them because, as far as I have been able to see, you can't change script properties on an item that has been created. This is part of their system to allow different mod makers to have varying difficulty devices from each other especially concerning special items. You could likely remove said device via console, change the settings then spawn a new one and put it on and it would use the new settings. At least that is what I get from reading things here.

 

I understand the reasoning for this and I think I now understand what Kimy was trying to tell me before but I was not getting the entire picture and not entirely been in the correct frame of mind to figure this out. I have been doing better and actually modding more so things are processing in my brain correctly (mostly). I apologize again, Kimy for misunderstanding things and what you were trying to say.

[LHM]

4 hours ago, Hanshurtig11 said:

Do i understand right, that, as soon as the item is applied it uses the settings in MCM ? And changing the settings later will only affect Items that are attached after change ?

So if you got bound in a device with setting set to high difficulty, the difficulty for THAT Item does not change, even if you change the setting in MCM to low difficulty ?

Regards and thx for all your work.

 

From my experience, it doesn't work quite like that.

 

I can put the setting on hardest, and then get locked for instance with an armbinder. I would struggle a lot and it would seem impossible to escape.

 

But if I change the setting to easiest, that same armbinder will feel much easier to escape, managing to escape in less than 3 attempts reliably.

 

And not just the armbinder, but also able to lockpick restraints etc.

[Kimy]

Ok, to clear this up: Each device has device-specific settings for escape difficulty. Item A can be very hard to struggle out from, Item B would be super easy to wiggle out. The escape modifier is applied as a multiplier on the device setting, at the exact time the escape attempt is being made. That means that if a player changes the difficulty modifier BEFORE making an escape attempt, the new multiplier IS getting applied to that attempt.

 

Next, DD had a "MCM lock-out when bound" feature long before DCL did. There was no conscious decision to remove it, back then. It happened because we removed ALL difficulty sliders/toggles from DD's MCM, including the lock-out feature. When we brought back the difficulty modifier, we just didn't re-implement the MCM lock feature. There is no good reason not to being it back, and it likely will be - as an OPTIONAL toggle, like in DCL. People who want to use it, can. People who don't, well, don't have to.

While Princessity is correct that players also could just not use MCM when they are bound, I think this compares a bit to self-bondage games. If you put a pair of cuffs on yourself and place the key on the nightstand next to you, it sure feels like you're wearing cuffs - but it doesn't quite feel like you're actually restrained, because you can unlock yourself whenever you wish. Which is why in self-bondage, people often make sure they can't get to the key before a certain time has passed - to get the feeling of actually being restrained, without any immediate means of escape. The MCM lock-out has a similar purpose - it's putting the key outside of your reach when you're bound. Mind you, that there are STILL means to get rid of devices when you absolutely have to - the console, or the Debug feature in MCM.

[Anooon]

That's a pretty good analogy, Kimy. Heck, there's even a mod with a deliberate self-bondage setting where you can set a timer for the devices to be removed (plus, lockshields are something very similar).

 

I assume the lock-out will default to off?

[LHM]

28 minutes ago, Kimy said:

When we brought back the difficulty modifier, we just didn't re-implement the MCM lock feature. There is no good reason not to being it back, and it likely will be - as an OPTIONAL toggle, like in DCL. People who want to use it, can. People who don't, well, don't have to.

Thank you, Kimy! 

[Loki15kun]

Is there a way to trigger the items to be treated as armbinders and such, but without applying the bound idles in the new animation filter?

I believe previously it was called zbfEffectKeepOffsetAnim on DDI3.3. Does it still work on the new DDI 4.0?

 

I'm testing applying the Dwarven Cyborg mod body as a "armbinder/straightjacket" but I don't want it to use armbinder idles.

[Punga]

On 12/6/2017 at 5:13 PM, Slorm said:

Thanks Kimy, sounds like it shouldn't be a problem then. I'll double check when DD4 is released, I think the rest of DH should be okay but may need to check the rusty chastity belt and key still works (the rest are generic devices so should be okay).

 

I'm planning on releasing another patch to correct some of the exterior sandboxing timing but wasn't planning on looking at it until SL1.63.

But we need that patch now. 

[Slorm]

36 minutes ago, Punga said:

But we need that patch now. 

That's OT in this thread Punga, but have a bucket instead

[Princessity]

7 hours ago, Loki15kun said:

Is there a way to trigger the items to be treated as armbinders and such, but without applying the bound idles in the new animation filter?

I believe previously it was called zbfEffectKeepOffsetAnim on DDI3.3. Does it still work on the new DDI 4.0?

 

I'm testing applying the Dwarven Cyborg mod body as a "armbinder/straightjacket" but I don't want it to use armbinder idles.

You can simply apply the HeavyBondage keyword. That's the one that actually tells the game to treat the thing as a heavy restraint. The Armbinder, Yoke, YokeBB, ArmbinderElbow and CuffsFront keywords are responsible for assigning animation sets but otherwise have no bearing on functionality.

[Lupine00]

What does disabling MCM's actually achieve? If, as a player, you somehow can't stop yourself from changing settings to how you want them (because presumably you don't change them to how you don't want them), then that's fine, but no amount of code will ever cure your split personality disorder.

 

But seriously, disabling MCM can only make trouble for the player. So many times I had some little thing set wrong, and because I keep my MCM enabled, I could fix that. If I'd locked my MCM, I would have had no choice but to be annoyed by some bug, or be forced to reload some old save, depending on the particulars of the situation. You can't create a more immersive experience by locking a menu. Ultimately, you can always reload a save, start a new game, but more often than not, you want access to that MCM to fix a genuine problem that is breaking your enjoyment.

 

Conversely, a player determined to hack the hardcore mode can easily do so, even if they have to apply their own patch mod on top.

 

In short, if you don't want to open the MCM, then don't open it. No code required.

 

If Skyrim scripts were 100% reliable, and coded with no bugs, even then, locking the MCM wouldn't make much sense, but as is, locking it (or worse, locking the console) only stops you from fixing things that are broken.

[Lupine00]

I think there are some animations in the big FunnyBizness SLAL pack that would work with alternative style armbinders. They might not have the right keywords on them at the moment though. 

 

This one: https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/2702-funnybizness-v25-slal-pack-by-shashankie/

(Edited this because there are quite a few FB packs, some of which have only a few animations in).

[Veladarius]

You can no matter what is done you can usually get around it via the console if you know what you are doing because unless the variable for the toggle is locked away in some json file or something like that you can always find it and change it via the console. So long as it is a variable that is a script property somewhere then it can be changed so long as you know what to look for.

[LHM]

9 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

What does disabling MCM's actually achieve? If, as a player, you somehow can't stop yourself from changing settings to how you want them (because presumably you don't change them to how you don't want them), then that's fine, but no amount of code will ever cure your split personality disorder.

 

But seriously, disabling MCM can only make trouble for the player. So many times I had some little thing set wrong, and because I keep my MCM enabled, I could fix that. If I'd locked my MCM, I would have had no choice but to be annoyed by some bug, or be forced to reload some old save, depending on the particulars of the situation. You can't create a more immersive experience by locking a menu. Ultimately, you can always reload a save, start a new game, but more often than not, you want access to that MCM to fix a genuine problem that is breaking your enjoyment.

 

Conversely, a player determined to hack the hardcore mode can easily do so, even if they have to apply their own patch mod on top.

 

In short, if you don't want to open the MCM, then don't open it. No code required.

 

If Skyrim scripts were 100% reliable, and coded with no bugs, even then, locking the MCM wouldn't make much sense, but as is, locking it (or worse, locking the console) only stops you from fixing things that are broken.

Nobody will force you to disable the MCM, it will be an OPTION (and I'm pretty sure disabled by default).

I suppose people should be free to make the choices they want, if you wanna play safe because you are scared of bugs/bad choices, then don't enable it...

 

I personally find it more fun to play having as realistic locks as possible.

Locking the MCM and the console (yeah, judge me, call me crazy...) is almost like playing a kinky Realistic Needs or Frostfall. Believe me or not I have very little frustration with bugs doing that...

 

Of course I wouldn't enable it if I'm testing a beta or some mod filled with bugs (dont see a reason to even play it seriously anyway), but its good to know the OPTION to disable the setting is there when I feel like playing that way with mods I know well.

[Hanshurtig11]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

What does disabling MCM's actually achieve? If, as a player, you somehow can't stop yourself from changing settings to how you want them (because presumably you don't change them to how you don't want them), then that's fine, but no amount of code will ever cure your split personality disorder.

 

But seriously, disabling MCM can only make trouble for the player. So many times I had some little thing set wrong, and because I keep my MCM enabled, I could fix that. If I'd locked my MCM, I would have had no choice but to be annoyed by some bug, or be forced to reload some old save, depending on the particulars of the situation. You can't create a more immersive experience by locking a menu. Ultimately, you can always reload a save, start a new game, but more often than not, you want access to that MCM to fix a genuine problem that is breaking your enjoyment.

 

Conversely, a player determined to hack the hardcore mode can easily do so, even if they have to apply their own patch mod on top.

 

In short, if you don't want to open the MCM, then don't open it. No code required.

 

If Skyrim scripts were 100% reliable, and coded with no bugs, even then, locking the MCM wouldn't make much sense, but as is, locking it (or worse, locking the console) only stops you from fixing things that are broken.

"In short, if you don't want to open the MCM, then don't open it. No code required."

 

even shorter..  if you dont want to have the MCM locked, dont check the lock button ;)

Maybe its possible just to lock the difficulty setting and leave the rest of the MCM.

regards

[SkyAddiction]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

What does disabling MCM's actually achieve? If, as a player, you somehow can't stop yourself from changing settings to how you want them (because presumably you don't change them to how you don't want them), then that's fine, but no amount of code will ever cure your split personality disorder.

 

But seriously, disabling MCM can only make trouble for the player. So many times I had some little thing set wrong, and because I keep my MCM enabled, I could fix that. If I'd locked my MCM, I would have had no choice but to be annoyed by some bug, or be forced to reload some old save, depending on the particulars of the situation. You can't create a more immersive experience by locking a menu. Ultimately, you can always reload a save, start a new game, but more often than not, you want access to that MCM to fix a genuine problem that is breaking your enjoyment.

 

Conversely, a player determined to hack the hardcore mode can easily do so, even if they have to apply their own patch mod on top.

 

In short, if you don't want to open the MCM, then don't open it. No code required.

 

If Skyrim scripts were 100% reliable, and coded with no bugs, even then, locking the MCM wouldn't make much sense, but as is, locking it (or worse, locking the console) only stops you from fixing things that are broken.

 

To answer your initial question? Immersion.

 

Consider this example: I recently made a throwaway playthrough to test a few mods. Usual stuff, i.e.: copy the MO profile, strip down the load order, load character preset, breeze through MCMs, etc. Well, it stuck with me because I ran the "I was attacked and left for dead" LAL start, and it occurred to me that it would make sense if my character had nothing at all to work with. Except I did. It's easy enough to toss everything on the ground, select it piece by piece in console, and type "disable", but my focus was on the new mod to test, so I just unequipped everything and pretended my inventory was empty.

 

However, I could not shake the knowledge that I had basic food, clothes, etc. if I wanted them. I wasn't going to use them and I wasn't tempted, but they were there and I knew it. It may seem insignificant, but as I do eventually plan to start making mods myself, I've been paying attention to the little things and how they inform the player about their environment. Two people at odds over an MCM setting might not seem a big deal, but if you can please them both at little cost and greater functionality it may well be worth the effort.

[Veladarius]

For me how I set up DD and mods like DCUR depends on what sort of mood am I in at the time. If I don't want to bother with a lot of things I set everything rather low while other times I crank it all up. Sometimes I care about immersion while other times I don't and having options in the MCM menu so I can change them is what I want as that can change dramatically from one game session to the next. This is why the menu is there, set it to your tastes and go. Everyone has a preference as to what degree of difficulty they want to use, so long as people can tailor the experience to how they want to play what difference does it make in your game play? Set it up how you want and don't worry about what anyone else is doing. As far as I'm concerned the more options I have the better.

[Reesewow]

MCM menu locking is one of those flavour features that some people enjoy having, and other simply can't understand the purpose of.  Being as it is being talked about as an optional feature to likely be added post-release and already has support on the dev team, the likelyhood that it impacts anyone who doesn't want the feature is probably pretty minimal.

 

Obviously very few controls will stop a user who wants to cheat from cheating in Skyrim, and as others have said the feature is more one of immersion rather than lack of self control.  In some ways it is the same idea as a scarcity mod - technically you could get the same results by simply telling yourself "I will not pick up anything from corpses and I will only loot boss chests, and only take items steel tier or lower".  The person using a scarcity mod can still use console to give themselves full daedric armor, but for them it is more fun to have the illusion of having very restricted access to items/power.

 

Myself, I couldn't care less about MCM menu locking as I am quite happy to goof around with settings on the fly, or console myself a bunch of keys because the DD mod I have in the background triggered when I was more interested in doing something else in-game.  I can see where some people would get value out of the feature however, and as long as they aren't badgering a dev about it or a dev themselves is interested in adding the feature, more power to them IMO.

[charfed]

well for me no matter what I do some of the devices don't see to apear at all just my character stading there naked , all though I've installed every requierement needed for it to run

properly I've never had trouble like this before with other modes I've always did follow the instruction given !

[josh97]

14 minutes ago, charfed said:

well for me no matter what I do some of the devices don't see to apear at all just my character stading there naked , all though I've installed every requierement needed for it to run

properly I've never had trouble like this before with other modes I've always did follow the instruction given !

Did you run Bodyslide? If no then that is your issue

[charfed]

10 minutes ago, josh97 said:

Did you run Bodyslide? If no then that is your issue

yes of corse I did ! some devices apear and others do not :(

 

and by run you mean adding body slide and outfits studio with nmm  right ?

 

that I did I have it for a while It's needed for many mods

[SkyAddiction]

5 minutes ago, charfed said:

yes of corse I did ! some devices apear and others do not :(

 

It's important to be specific. Which devices appear? Which do not? Do you have any specific mods which conflict with the DD mods? Simply stating you're having trouble and not providing the necessary context to understand that information isn't going to help you in fixing your issues. ;)

[charfed]

4 minutes ago, SkyAddiction said:

 

It's important to be specific. Which devices appear? Which do not? Do you have any specific mods which conflict with the DD mods? Simply stating you're having trouble and not providing the necessary context to understand that information isn't going to help you in fixing your issues. ;)

yes you're right I'm sorry 

 

black restrictive collar
black restrictive corset
chestity belt padded
chestity bra  padded
cuffs lether arms
cuffs legs   padded
nipple piercing soulgem

 

I don't get and just a minute ago blindfold active ? does it mean even if they're equipped doesn't mean they will appear ? 

 

well for me  no matter what I do some of the devices don't see to apear at all just my character stading there naked , all though I've installed every requierement needed for it to run

properly I've never had trouble like this before with other modes I've always did follow the instruction given !

 

everything !

 

[Hanshurtig11]

15 minutes ago, charfed said:

yes of corse I did ! some devices apear and others do not :(

 

and by run you mean adding body slide and outfits studio with nmm  right ?

 

that I did I have it for a while It's needed for many mods

Running means more then just adding via NMM, you need to actually "run" the program Bodyslide and prepare the outfits/devices.

It can be started from within NMM under "Supported Tools" (right upper area) ... you might need to configure path before you can use from within NMM..

Bodyslidefolder itself should be found in your Skyrim\Data folder.

[SkyAddiction]

9 minutes ago, charfed said:

yes you're right I'm sorry 

 

well for me no matter what I do some of the devices don't see to apear at all just my character stading there naked , all though I've installed every requierement needed for it to run

properly I've never had trouble like this before with other modes I've always did follow the instruction given !

 

everything !

 

 

Don't be sorry... adjust. ;)

Your problem sounds suspiciously like you don't have the actual products of BodySlide working in your game. I'm not sure for NMM because it's been a long time, but for Mod Organizer you have to create a mod of the textures you build in BodySlide and actually activate it. If you're using NMM, it should be a similar process - whatever allows you to add the textures to your load order is the method you use here.

 

Note: you need your generated files from BodySlide to actually overrite or otherwise replace your base meshes from the files. e.g.: you need BodySlide generated files to replace XXXX.nif, where XXXX.nif is the original file. Meshes and textures disappearing is the hallmark of mods that can't compensate for BodySlide.

 

Hopefully that helps. :)

[charfed]

20 minutes ago, Hanshurtig11 said:

Running means more then just adding via NMM, you need to actually "run" the program Bodyslide and prepare the outfits/devices.

It can be started from within NMM under "Supported Tools" (right upper area) ... you might need to configure path before you can use from within NMM..

Bodyslidefolder itself should be found in your Skyrim\Data folder.

yes I did that of corse I kow that duh !

 

well thanks anyway 

 

it apears that the devious even if the're forced equipped by the master they don't show up until a msg apear "the device is now active !"