Aria Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 -snip- I kinda get your point, but if you haven't seen other threads, many threads about getting stuff done were being derailed by someone coming in and starting an argument about whether not sse is a flop or not. Now that is an important conversation, and probably will lead to something productive, but there is no need for every thread to devolve into "beth sux" and "mah 64-bit". So the other threads are for their specific discussion/mod, and this thread is for this specific discussion. And if you want to criticize sse for something specific and how to fix it, then you should make a different thread, so it's not like all criticism is relegated to this thread, just more of the general criticism leveled at beth. Plus, I feel a little insulted by you for insinuating I'm even a little sheepish towards beth. I don't do anything on this website for their goodwill, I do it because they have a shitty game that has nearly limitless potential, and I plan to take full advantage of said potential. (text doesn't have emotion, so that statement is meant to be read with neutrality not anger or any neg. emotion.) Lastly, it's not just journalist websites that suffer. In the video tb talks about how some of those websites don't make a lot of money and if they can't generate revenue by making reviews, because the game companies won't let them, then they might go under and we won't have as much variety when it comes to reviews. There is also the problem that if a company like beth gets away with being bad for long enough they are gonna screw themselves over, and then we won't have elder scrolls and fallout games to mod anymore. If you don't discipline(I mean verbally) a child when they do something bad, then they will almost without fail do it again. And if we don't tell bethesda that their game is shit, and tell them their media policy is shit, then their media policy will stay(or get worse), and they will keep making games that pc players hate, but that console players love. We have to make sure beth knows they can't get away with doing something bad(ignoring/actively treating their fans like garbage) and not deal with any consequences, or they will end up like EA. A company that corners the market with many of their franchises, which means they do whatever they want, because they know everyone will still buy the next sims game. They don't even have to care that the sims 3 is one of the top ten most pirated games, because they sold so many legit copies. Erm no thats not what my post ment and i understand that lots of " bethesda sucks, their games suck" posts add nothing to the discussion and add unnecessary fire, but going through the other threads at LL i seen people with valid arguments being shoved here or to other similar threads. The general attitude of LL that was neutral has pretty much shifted to pro bethesda, you can see it just by how this thread is tagged. Also, i cant insult you unless you let me, since i have'nt mentioned anyone particular as sheep but as a general way of saying that some people buy into anything bethesda says. The goodwill part also wasnt pointed towards modders, if anything they are the ones i have the utmost respect to and it makes me very sad how Bethesda is using them as a way to gain more money. And again the reason why Bethesda made this move is because gaming sites no longer matter, it just shows how many people buy/preorder anything without even reading a review, otherwise they wouldnt do this in the first place. They go to youtubers like piewdiepie watch his vids and buy. Im not saying that this is a good thing, but that it doesnt change anything in how the gamers behave or will behave. Also dont tell me that gaming websites have been pro consumer all this time, when many of them are full of clickbait articles, preorder adds and many times posts that paint gamers in the worst possible ways.
LeFlemard Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 heated thread is heated, calm down a bit people, each of you has some amount of right and wrong. buddha mod ended
Aria Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 heated thread is heated, calm down a bit people, each of you has some amount of right and wrong. buddha mod ended No heat here, just having a discussion
winny257 Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 ---snip--- Yes Bethesda is trying to make money, SO F@CKING WHAT? They are a company the only way they can make games is to make money and be profitable. This is the first remaster I know of in history that allows console player to mod the content of their games not an insignificant added feature. You are quite naive. Of course, can now use with the remaster, console player mods use. but what mods ??? They can not any PC mods Download and install, That is simply impossible. They definitely get NO sex mods, They must wait for garbage, They need Modder for console mods. One thing is clear console mods are doomed to fail. So Bethesda has the people (console players) cheated! And for this Bethesda would have to be held accountable !!!
winny257 Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 Putting it simply? 100% garbage money grab to trick modders and mod authors. "SSE will replace original skyrim" -Nope, not a chance it will. Err really? Because modders and mod authors were all on PC for oldrim and PC users got the game for free so tell me in your warped mind how were they "tricked" into a money grab? What is it with people ignoring facts to push their own narrative? It is almost like people just regurgitate something they heard about remasters in general and just repeat it here ignoring context of the actual issue they spew their sound bite about. Ignoring facts to push my narrative? Oh, so basically doing the same thing you're doing, right? "All pc users get it free." Hey speaking of facts; here's a fact you should put into that little mind of yours: PC users who have "all of the DLC" get it free. Not everyone bought all of the DLC... Also; I don't ignore facts, I ignore bullshit. There's a difference. I also have not all DLC and I would have to SSE BUY! No more a cent for these people, They to vomit at me!
Raelic Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 I also have not all DLC and I would have to SSE BUY! No more a cent for these people, They to vomit at me! So, you voluntarily chose to not buy DLC that's less than 10$, but also for a 5+ year old game, and now you're upset about it, or are you upset at Bethesda? Not trying to start nothin.
yatol Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 So, you voluntarily chose to not buy DLC that's less than 10$ i have voluntarily chose to not buy heartfire and i don't regret it breezhome fully upgradable or other mods are better than that thing the free if you have legendary is a bait to get pc users to switch to convert mods for console users (to give them a reason to buy it) there's no reason to switch for now no skse no mod convertor (loading crap kit, repacking bsa, converting nifs... bethesda didn't bother giving a tool to do that? someone will make it maybe)) no benchmark to compare the engine
yatol Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 Yes, they could have done better. But I have got it for free and I have so far not a single CTD and already over 80 mods and over 20 hours of play. come back after hundred of hours of play if your save is still alive^^
Kaz Aanh Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 wew Now I know why they made this game free for PC players, if it was for 40 bucks people would go total mad and this game would reach around 20% ( <- these 20% are the kind of people who *enjoy* and praise vanilla Skyrim for 500hrs+ and simply blind bethdrones ) . I wouldn't buy this game for sure, its like you come back from work to home , expecting a dinner and all you see is a black guy ravaging your wife on the dinner table. This is how Bethesda games experience feels. I wonder how many times we will receive such underdeveloped half-assed product, I mean come on. I know modders can fix it but how many times? They give Bethesda too much forgiveness. Remasters, how to sell the same game twice.
migal130 Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 So, you voluntarily chose to not buy DLC that's less than 10$ i have voluntarily chose to not buy heartfire and i don't regret it breezhome fully upgradable or other mods are better than that thing Hearthfires only cost me $5 dollars. I thought it was worth it not for the homes, but for Rayya, Valaria, Gretta, Sonir, Oriella and Lulu, plus the ability to hire stewards and adopt kids. It seemed weird that you could get married but couldn't have kids. Granted, a genuine pregnancy system would be preferable, but adoption was better than nothing. If you look inside the Hearthfires plugin and check all the resources that come with it, it's definitely worth $5 bucks, just because of the amount of time that went into it. The code for the adoption system is probably some of the most complex papyrus ever written by someone at Bethesda. Although, it's pretty buggy and had to be fixed by Arthmoor and others. lol
mudda911 Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 @yatol Thanks for the warning. I have deleted my post becouse my english is so bad, dosent expected a answer. I have some savegame issue too, but no problem, since i have more as one savegame. I'm a player who can wait. I bought skyrim myself for 25 euros. For me personally, there is simply nothing I can complain about. If I'm after sexmods, I can still play the original.
Malo Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 So yeah, Beth sucks since a very long time and even more so when paid mods was introduced. It was the beginning of the end and ever since, they've been nothing but money hungry, greedy big fat liars. Who have produced games with the best modding systems around that has enabled the community to build anything we desire and spend literally thousands of hours in.... for $60.
winny257 Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 So, you voluntarily chose to not buy DLC that's less than 10$ i have voluntarily chose to not buy heartfire and i don't regret it breezhome fully upgradable or other mods are better than that thing the free if you have legendary is a bait to get pc users to switch to convert mods for console users (to give them a reason to buy it) there's no reason to switch for now no skse no mod convertor (loading crap kit, repacking bsa, converting nifs... bethesda didn't bother giving a tool to do that? someone will make it maybe)) no benchmark to compare the engine it is exactly like that, Hearthfire is for me a joke, just like in Oblivion the * horse armor dlc * a joke was! With hearthfire it is also a little more problematic, many mods are in the conflict, Thus not compatible!
winny257 Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 So yeah, Beth sucks since a very long time and even more so when paid mods was introduced. It was the beginning of the end and ever since, they've been nothing but money hungry, greedy big fat liars. Who have produced games with the best modding systems around that has enabled the community to build anything we desire and spend literally thousands of hours in.... for $60. and that TIMES 10,000,000 people or more. Then you know what Bethesda has earned on Skyrim! And now for the same game once again Money, Money, Money !!!!!!
Guest enip Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 So yeah, Beth sucks since a very long time and even more so when paid mods was introduced. It was the beginning of the end and ever since, they've been nothing but money hungry, greedy big fat liars. Who have produced games with the best modding systems around that has enabled the community to build anything we desire and spend literally thousands of hours in.... for $60. And what has Bethesda done lately? They've been utilizing mods and modders since 2014 to benefit themselves. Till this day people still upload mods on STEAM, and for what? Generate more sales for them because mods are incentive and entice consumers into buying the game on PC to experience mods. What do modders get out of it? Nothing.
TamaChan Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 -snip- No heat here, just having a discussion Alright, that all sound reasonable. I don't make custom content for others anymore, which is why I don't have anything uploaded, but I have in the past, and still frequently help others with their creations, so if it wasn't obvious I was giving you my personal reasons for why I choose to continue making personal mods and helping others make their's for beth games. Nothing but love. -snip- I also have not all DLC and I would have to SSE BUY! No more a cent for these people, They to vomit at me! This is in reply to all your posts since yesterday winny. I guess I could understand not wanting them because they cause compatibility issues, but not wanting to buy hearthfire to get sse for free just seems to be against your best interests to me. But then again, I haven't taken a vow against beth(yet), so we will see how I feel about this in another couple years. I like the idea of idea of boycotting console mods until beth learns they can't keep jerking their fans around. Seeing all that money, I can see how beth might have been corrupted, but I would still rather be poor and apart of this modding community(like I am now) than rich and taking advantage of it. wew -snip- I wonder how many times we will receive such underdeveloped half-assed product, I mean come on. I know modders can fix it but how many times? They give Bethesda too much forgiveness. Remasters, how to sell the same game twice. From the information I could find(not much, since they want to silence everyone) consoles sales are doing somewhat worse than expeected and pc sales are exactly as expected, absolute shit. Beth wouldn't dare expect us to make mods for their shitty console releases and pay another $40+ for the 64 bit engine just to make said mods. They gave it to us hoping it would entice us to make mods that they could market to consoles. I have a bad feeling that at some point in the future beth is gonna require all mods be hosted on beth.net, and that all adult mods will be officially frowned upon, because "oh we can't be hosting adult mods with our normal stuff on beth.net." -snip- Who have produced games with the best modding systems around that has enabled the community to build anything we desire and spend literally thousands of hours in.... for $60. The fact that the original game costed $60 is incidental. They aren't charging us for a community membership, they are charging us for a license to use their software and play their base game. We spend thousands of hours because there are other people who allow us to, and who will do it for free. If I was the only person modding a beth game, I would spend as much time playing it as any other rpg, maybe as high 70 hours. If nexus had a membership charge(obviously everyone would go somewhere else, but this is a hypothetical), then I would be paying $60 for the software license, and a monthly fee of say $20 to actually have mods. If I had been paying that since the beginning, then I would have payed $1260+ for the thousands of hours I have put into skyrim. I don't think I'd pay that, would you? But because modders work for free, then I have payed $160+(had to buy the game 3 times, 2 were legendary for pc because of some bs, and the 3rd was the original copy I got for 360) for the license and maybe 70 hours of game time, and a whopping $0 for the content I have sunk thousands of hours into because modding beth games is as much about community as content. -snip- And what has Bethesda done lately? They've been utilizing mods and modders since 2014 to benefit themselves. Till this day people still upload mods on STEAM, and for what? Generate more sales for them because mods are incentive and entice consumers into buying the game on PC to experience mods. What do modders get out of it? Nothing. We get rewarded with surprise(or maybe expected?) butt-sex from beth. The 2 reasons game generally get pirated is because the games is commercially a success(pirating generally mirrors sales figures), and because people hate the developer. It'll be a fun surprise when the next elder scrolls game is one of the most pirated.
DoctaSax Posted November 8, 2016 Author Posted November 8, 2016 Though Total Biscuits vid made me realize LL is becoming something like this as of late ..."here you have your criticsm thread, dont get in our way, now shoo shoo and let us continue our free work for bethesdas good will" Even the way this thread is taged is ment to ridicule anyone that criticizes bethesda. The general attitude of LL that was neutral has pretty much shifted to pro bethesda, you can see it just by how this thread is tagged. You're reading far too much in the tags. I can't say much thought went into picking them. Otherwise, the reasons for this thread are explained in the OP.
Aria Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 -snip- No heat here, just having a discussion Alright, that all sound reasonable. I don't make custom content for others anymore, which is why I don't have anything uploaded, but I have in the past, and still frequently help others with their creations, so if it wasn't obvious I was giving you my personal reasons for why I choose to continue making personal mods and helping others make their's for beth games. Nothing but love. Im perfectly fine with that TamaChan, as long as you have fun in doing what you doing, all is fine, i was more pointing towards people who blindly defend Bethesda and are offensive towards anyone who doesnt. Perhaps i should start to add more smileys to my posts so people dont think im offended by everything Though Total Biscuits vid made me realize LL is becoming something like this as of late ..."here you have your criticsm thread, dont get in our way, now shoo shoo and let us continue our free work for bethesdas good will" Even the way this thread is taged is ment to ridicule anyone that criticizes bethesda. The general attitude of LL that was neutral has pretty much shifted to pro bethesda, you can see it just by how this thread is tagged. You're reading far too much in the tags. I can't say much thought went into picking them. Otherwise, the reasons for this thread are explained in the OP. Alright, perhaps i judged too harshly, felt the tags just like before on the FO4 thread were ment to say all we do is hate, but there are some valid points being brought up here. Im aware these threads are the outcome of what happened in general discussions when people got emotional over a bunch of opinions, still i feel LL atmosphere changed from neutral to against anything regarding criticism, but i leave it at that as i dont want to poke into this anymore.
Gothfather Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 -snip- And how the f@ck does that effect anyone on this forum? If you used loverslab to mod skyrim you owned the PC version and you got skyrim SE for FREE. Again how does this hurt any of us? And if you talk about console players alone they got the ability to mod the bloody game which they never could before. For people that WANT to mod a what $40 USD game giving them mod features is a lot cheaper then buying a computer. If they don't want mod capability they don't have to buy the game. How is the existence of the CHOICE a black mark on Bethesda? Yes Bethesda is trying to make money, SO F@CKING WHAT? They are a company the only way they can make games is to make money and be profitable. This is the first remaster I know of in history that allows console player to mod the content of their games not an insignificant added feature. ! warning wall of text ! I'm someone who will let beth raw-dog me all my life, and will definitely get the next game too. I have also been sucking their dick about 64-bit so I do personally agree that it is a big deal. But I think you are misunderstanding this thread, and possibly even a lot about beth too. This thread is mostly us hating beth for being money-hungry, lazy, arseholes. Despite being 64-bit being extremely useful, it's almost certain they did it not for the modding community, but for console players, so that they could sell a 5 year old game at retail price with the promise of mods to casuals. Now if I were a casual I prolly wouldn't hate beth so much, but the fact is, they gave it to us for free likely because they new how much the modding community would flip a b*tch if they expected us to pay full retail price for just a better engine(since that's the only part we care about) after everything else they have done since oldrim's release(see paid modding for starters). We know from beth's own accounts and from looking inside the engine, that sse first and foremost is aimed at consoles players. Now if the company was about to go bankrupt, this might be acceptable, but this is just the beginning of it. Because now we are getting all kinds of reports from big names in the modding scene talking about how they expected the cre-kit beta to be a fun experience to pay back pillars of the modding community, and instead, it was beth making sure there would be mods at release for the console plebs. They took advantage of the modding community's good will again. I'm not someone who hates console players, or who thinks a company making money is bad. But when a company decides they are going to ignore the pc players(their most important demographic) in favor of the console players, and make the game shittier because they are sacrificing things to try and sell more copies, then they are prioritizing money TOO much, and showing us they, are not likely to change their ways. For the first 5-ish days, I was glad about sse and had hopes about beth thhinking they learned their mistakes from skyrim, eso, and fo4. But that was because beth had a gag-order on the beta-modders. They weren't aloud to talk about the game until after it came out, or at the very least many of them were not told whether or not they could. This resulted in the release being good and the response being bad. Beth expected the modding community to fix their games, now that they are selling mods to consoles in the form of a 5yo game at retail price, they are now expecting the modding community to sell their game for them. Unacceptable. #bethesdasux -snip- Ignoring facts to push my narrative? Oh, so basically doing the same thing you're doing, right? "All pc users get it free." Hey speaking of facts; here's a fact you should put into that little mind of yours: PC users who have "all of the DLC" get it free. Not everyone bought all of the DLC... Also; I don't ignore facts, I ignore bullshit. There's a difference. I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Ever since beth announced pc players with all dlcs would get it for free, websites have been having sales on and off. Some of them for as low as $1 dollar for all the dlc. So the only excuse to not have the dlc before the game came out was not knowing you get it for free if you have the dlc. I am not sure I follow you. how has Bethesda screwed over PC players? We got it free and as you said any moron using the excuse of I don't have the DLC is transferring their own anger at themselves onto Bethesda. They gave us a free upgrade to an engine that eliminates the 4 gb memory limitation that allows for impressive modding. The ability of the engine to handle large numbers of NPCs in a given cell means to more Civil war mods that see combatants just standing because the engine can't control that many bodies. This isn't an insignificant boost. Rivers actually flow in the direction of a river not in a single direction. Yes the remaster was geared to improve console users experience primarily but not exclusively, but pray tell me how does that hurt you? How is that an insult? how is improving one groups experience of skyrim lessening your experience? PC users got huge benefits that the ignorant are ignoring. The jump to 64 bit is the most important change to SSE and we pc users can make the most out of this benefit. Allowing console users access to mods (at least xbone users PS4 users get an inferior experience but that is on Sony not Bethesda. Also SSE is below full retain price, SSE is $50 CND which is $30 less than what I pay for a AAA title today. So not sure why people think this is a rip off. Oldrim sells for $44 CND for the game and all the DLCs, so again hardly this huge money grap. The facts don't line up with the critisisms. 1) Money grab - Well it was free for the players that would benefit from the upgrade the least hardly a gesture that should be brushed off. So many companies wouldn't have made such a gesture at all. The benefits are of substance and not merely cosmetic. Console users got value from this upgrade they got access to mods and I challenge anyone to honestly say that is an insignificant benefit. Do they have complete access to all the mods PC users get? No but how is that a problem to PC users how are we hurt by this? How are console users hurt by giving them access to something they never had before? Well "PC gamers would b!tch if they made us pay for it..," how the F@ck is that a strike against Bethesda? OMFG they didn't make us pay for it they told us right at the reveal that PC gamers would get it free if we owned the game and all the DLCs. So why are they money grabbing for something they DIDN'T do? 2) SSE is lazy? Really lazy? How is putting most of the changes to the game under the hood so to speak instead of simply upgrading the textures, lazy? Lazy remasters are like marvel universe games by activation. The controls didn't work on PC for keyboard or controllers. When you spend the budget on a remaster in improving the engine and physics (water flowing in multiple directions around objects for example) jumping from 32 bit to 64 bit which isn't as simple as just recompiling the 32 bit engine into a 64 bit engine. You are getting real improvements not just a prettier paint job. How is this lazy? This is a remaster remember not a completely new game, it was only ever pitched to people as a remaster. They never promised or implied new content. 3) They released the creation kit early and use that to have mods available for console players at launch. How is that a bloody bad thing? It gives creators a chance to see the new creation kit and learn its idiosyncrasies and it give players mods. This is known as mutually beneficial, just because one side also gets a benefit doesn't negate the benefit we got. And again how does this action HURT PC gamers? How are we injured by this action? How does this lessen our gaming experience? The answer is it doesn't . 4)"But when a company decides they are going to ignore the pc players(their most important demographic) in favor of the console players, and make the game shittier because they are sacrificing things to try and sell more copies..." WTF? The game is BETTER for PC users. How is SSE sh!tter for Pc gamers? In what instance is SSE worse than Oldrim? This is your direct quote. You said we are ignored and they made the game sh!ttier, give me an example how SSE is sh!tter for PC players? You can't be so self centred that unless PC users get something only THEY can use it means PC users are ignored and sh!t upon, are you? Are you trying to tell me the benefits to gamers are a zero sum game? Every benefit a console player gets is a benefit a PC player loses or doesn't count as a benefit? Come on. 5) Using modders to sell their games. Unacceptable. So the alternative is that Bethesda makes their next game unmoddable because god forbid they use the strength of a dying feature in gaming modability as a selling point? This makes no sense. by this logic any feature in their games that strengthens modding can be used as an excuse to accuse Bethesda of using mods and by extension modders to sell their games. This is logically inconsistent, you can't use mods personally to improve your gaming experience and then hate on the company that uses this feature to sell their games. Mods are a FEATURE of the game a feature that isn't an after thought but that is part of the core of the games feature set. It is perfectly acceptable to use this feature as a selling point and use mods to show player just what a better experience the game is. WTF do you think PC gamers who own consoles as well will choose to buy the game on PC? Because of MODS mods sell the game on PC and always have and it was the modders that sold the game. Because if modders didn't make the mods we love we would have no mods. On PC this is acceptable but when Bethesda does the same thing on Consoles it is money grubbing and unacceptable? How do you square that circle? 6) Using modders to fix their games. This is something that is overblown by most mod users. First most mods are not game fixes. They are enhancements and tweaks. Changing how x feature works to make it more in line with your subjective tastes isn't a bug fix. Fixing a missing texture is a bug fix but improving a set of textures to be of a better quality isn't a bug fix. This is not to say that bug don't exist and that modders don't fix them but it isn't as ubiquitous as you imply. Does Bethesda make the game knowing that some things will be changes by players? yes the key is they give people a decent game vanilla and allow people to take this base skeleton and improve on it. If the base games is as bad as some PC users imply this game wouldn't have been a hit on consoles. Bethesda games are console hits so the base game has to have some value to some people. So I don't think you are being fair. And just to be clear I am boycotting Bethesda games the first month of release (as in I wont buy their games until one month after release) so I am no mindless fanboi but it amazes me that people are QQ over BS and ignoring the fact that Bethesda is trying to limit professional reviews on their products and giving "influencers" access to their game early so they can get day more uniformed day one purchases. But I haven't seen a single 'real' issue being raised why SSE is sh!te. It is just game BS.
Gothfather Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 Yes Bethesda is trying to make money, SO F@CKING WHAT? They are a company the only way they can make games is to make money and be profitable. Again this companies need money to exist? How about taking off the blindfold from your eyes for once? If that's all you can say, we can safely ignore you as there's no real argument you're trying to make. Also, your pitiful attempt to be funny failed. Yes Bethesda needs money to exist. WTF do you think companies make one profitable product then stop trying to make money because they don't need it anymore? How stupid do you have to be to think because Bethesda has been successful with past games they no longer need to make money? Who would invest in a companies who's goal it is to make a profit once then stop making money after? What world do you live in? Seriously that is how a child thinks. Companies make products and sell products to make MONEY. That is their sole reason for existing. How the f@ck is this news to you? How do you not understand that every product Bethesda has created or will create will be with the sole purpose of making money? And that isn't a bad thing. This is how we get games. SSE gives value to console users, where once they could not use mods now they can. This isn't an insignificant gain for them and given that current consoles have decent memory compared to last generation consoles they can get some pretty good mods going. It isn't as good as PC users but it will be ROUGHLY as good as we had for Oldrim and that is value in and of itself. How is this not a value worth paying for? I would never myself buy a Bethesda game on console because I value mods so much, how is giving console gamers mods of no value and a value not worth paying for? Also this is a choice not a requirement. if people are happy with oldrim be they PC users or console users they are not required to f@cking buy SSE. They haven't even remove the option to buy oldrim from people. Steam still sells it, this is entirely up to the consumer to decide is SSE worth the money to me? PC users that don't have all the DLCs are not forced to buy SSE they can still just buy the missing DLCs if that is a better value for them. how is this a bad thing? Bethesda realised for PC gamers the value of the remaster was less so they addressed this by giving us the remaster free, if this was a the money grab you suggest wouldn't they charge use for the remaster and accept many if not most players on PC wouldn't buy it but some people would and that would mean more money? Given the facts isn't it more reasonable to conclude, Yes SSE was created and released to make a profit but it was released a lower than full retain price and was only charge to the players that got the most value from the upgrade?
winny257 Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 -snip- And how the f@ck does that effect anyone on this forum? If you used loverslab to mod skyrim you owned the PC version and you got skyrim SE for FREE. Again how does this hurt any of us? And if you talk about console players alone they got the ability to mod the bloody game which they never could before. For people that WANT to mod a what $40 USD game giving them mod features is a lot cheaper then buying a computer. If they don't want mod capability they don't have to buy the game. How is the existence of the CHOICE a black mark on Bethesda? Yes Bethesda is trying to make money, SO F@CKING WHAT? They are a company the only way they can make games is to make money and be profitable. This is the first remaster I know of in history that allows console player to mod the content of their games not an insignificant added feature. ! warning wall of text ! I'm someone who will let beth raw-dog me all my life, and will definitely get the next game too. I have also been sucking their dick about 64-bit so I do personally agree that it is a big deal. But I think you are misunderstanding this thread, and possibly even a lot about beth too. This thread is mostly us hating beth for being money-hungry, lazy, arseholes. Despite being 64-bit being extremely useful, it's almost certain they did it not for the modding community, but for console players, so that they could sell a 5 year old game at retail price with the promise of mods to casuals. Now if I were a casual I prolly wouldn't hate beth so much, but the fact is, they gave it to us for free likely because they new how much the modding community would flip a b*tch if they expected us to pay full retail price for just a better engine(since that's the only part we care about) after everything else they have done since oldrim's release(see paid modding for starters). We know from beth's own accounts and from looking inside the engine, that sse first and foremost is aimed at consoles players. Now if the company was about to go bankrupt, this might be acceptable, but this is just the beginning of it. Because now we are getting all kinds of reports from big names in the modding scene talking about how they expected the cre-kit beta to be a fun experience to pay back pillars of the modding community, and instead, it was beth making sure there would be mods at release for the console plebs. They took advantage of the modding community's good will again. I'm not someone who hates console players, or who thinks a company making money is bad. But when a company decides they are going to ignore the pc players(their most important demographic) in favor of the console players, and make the game shittier because they are sacrificing things to try and sell more copies, then they are prioritizing money TOO much, and showing us they, are not likely to change their ways. For the first 5-ish days, I was glad about sse and had hopes about beth thhinking they learned their mistakes from skyrim, eso, and fo4. But that was because beth had a gag-order on the beta-modders. They weren't aloud to talk about the game until after it came out, or at the very least many of them were not told whether or not they could. This resulted in the release being good and the response being bad. Beth expected the modding community to fix their games, now that they are selling mods to consoles in the form of a 5yo game at retail price, they are now expecting the modding community to sell their game for them. Unacceptable. #bethesdasux -snip- Ignoring facts to push my narrative? Oh, so basically doing the same thing you're doing, right? "All pc users get it free." Hey speaking of facts; here's a fact you should put into that little mind of yours: PC users who have "all of the DLC" get it free. Not everyone bought all of the DLC... Also; I don't ignore facts, I ignore bullshit. There's a difference. I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Ever since beth announced pc players with all dlcs would get it for free, websites have been having sales on and off. Some of them for as low as $1 dollar for all the dlc. So the only excuse to not have the dlc before the game came out was not knowing you get it for free if you have the dlc. I am not sure I follow you. how has Bethesda screwed over PC players? We got it free and as you said any moron using the excuse of I don't have the DLC is transferring their own anger at themselves onto Bethesda. They gave us a free upgrade to an engine that eliminates the 4 gb memory limitation that allows for impressive modding. The ability of the engine to handle large numbers of NPCs in a given cell means to more Civil war mods that see combatants just standing because the engine can't control that many bodies. This isn't an insignificant boost. Rivers actually flow in the direction of a river not in a single direction. Yes the remaster was geared to improve console users experience primarily but not exclusively, but pray tell me how does that hurt you? How is that an insult? how is improving one groups experience of skyrim lessening your experience? PC users got huge benefits that the ignorant are ignoring. The jump to 64 bit is the most important change to SSE and we pc users can make the most out of this benefit. Allowing console users access to mods (at least xbone users PS4 users get an inferior experience but that is on Sony not Bethesda. Also SSE is below full retain price, SSE is $50 CND which is $30 less than what I pay for a AAA title today. So not sure why people think this is a rip off. Oldrim sells for $44 CND for the game and all the DLCs, so again hardly this huge money grap. The facts don't line up with the critisisms. 1) Money grab - Well it was free for the players that would benefit from the upgrade the least hardly a gesture that should be brushed off. So many companies wouldn't have made such a gesture at all. The benefits are of substance and not merely cosmetic. Console users got value from this upgrade they got access to mods and I challenge anyone to honestly say that is an insignificant benefit. Do they have complete access to all the mods PC users get? No but how is that a problem to PC users how are we hurt by this? How are console users hurt by giving them access to something they never had before? Well "PC gamers would b!tch if they made us pay for it..," how the F@ck is that a strike against Bethesda? OMFG they didn't make us pay for it they told us right at the reveal that PC gamers would get it free if we owned the game and all the DLCs. So why are they money grabbing for something they DIDN'T do? 2) SSE is lazy? Really lazy? How is putting most of the changes to the game under the hood so to speak instead of simply upgrading the textures, lazy? Lazy remasters are like marvel universe games by activation. The controls didn't work on PC for keyboard or controllers. When you spend the budget on a remaster in improving the engine and physics (water flowing in multiple directions around objects for example) jumping from 32 bit to 64 bit which isn't as simple as just recompiling the 32 bit engine into a 64 bit engine. You are getting real improvements not just a prettier paint job. How is this lazy? This is a remaster remember not a completely new game, it was only ever pitched to people as a remaster. They never promised or implied new content. 3) They released the creation kit early and use that to have mods available for console players at launch. How is that a bloody bad thing? It gives creators a chance to see the new creation kit and learn its idiosyncrasies and it give players mods. This is known as mutually beneficial, just because one side also gets a benefit doesn't negate the benefit we got. And again how does this action HURT PC gamers? How are we injured by this action? How does this lessen our gaming experience? The answer is it doesn't . 4)"But when a company decides they are going to ignore the pc players(their most important demographic) in favor of the console players, and make the game shittier because they are sacrificing things to try and sell more copies..." WTF? The game is BETTER for PC users. How is SSE sh!tter for Pc gamers? In what instance is SSE worse than Oldrim? This is your direct quote. You said we are ignored and they made the game sh!ttier, give me an example how SSE is sh!tter for PC players? You can't be so self centred that unless PC users get something only THEY can use it means PC users are ignored and sh!t upon, are you? Are you trying to tell me the benefits to gamers are a zero sum game? Every benefit a console player gets is a benefit a PC player loses or doesn't count as a benefit? Come on. 5) Using modders to sell their games. Unacceptable. So the alternative is that Bethesda makes their next game unmoddable because god forbid they use the strength of a dying feature in gaming modability as a selling point? This makes no sense. by this logic any feature in their games that strengthens modding can be used as an excuse to accuse Bethesda of using mods and by extension modders to sell their games. This is logically inconsistent, you can't use mods personally to improve your gaming experience and then hate on the company that uses this feature to sell their games. Mods are a FEATURE of the game a feature that isn't an after thought but that is part of the core of the games feature set. It is perfectly acceptable to use this feature as a selling point and use mods to show player just what a better experience the game is. WTF do you think PC gamers who own consoles as well will choose to buy the game on PC? Because of MODS mods sell the game on PC and always have and it was the modders that sold the game. Because if modders didn't make the mods we love we would have no mods. On PC this is acceptable but when Bethesda does the same thing on Consoles it is money grubbing and unacceptable? How do you square that circle? 6) Using modders to fix their games. This is something that is overblown by most mod users. First most mods are not game fixes. They are enhancements and tweaks. Changing how x feature works to make it more in line with your subjective tastes isn't a bug fix. Fixing a missing texture is a bug fix but improving a set of textures to be of a better quality isn't a bug fix. This is not to say that bug don't exist and that modders don't fix them but it isn't as ubiquitous as you imply. Does Bethesda make the game knowing that some things will be changes by players? yes the key is they give people a decent game vanilla and allow people to take this base skeleton and improve on it. If the base games is as bad as some PC users imply this game wouldn't have been a hit on consoles. Bethesda games are console hits so the base game has to have some value to some people. So I don't think you are being fair. And just to be clear I am boycotting Bethesda games the first month of release (as in I wont buy their games until one month after release) so I am no mindless fanboi but it amazes me that people are QQ over BS and ignoring the fact that Bethesda is trying to limit professional reviews on their products and giving "influencers" access to their game early so they can get day more uniformed day one purchases. But I haven't seen a single 'real' issue being raised why SSE is sh!te. It is just game BS. You should crawl Bethesda in the ass. I need 3-4 years to get my Oldrim perfect! And one is sure SSE I never get perfect! Because quite simply different mods, will not be available for SSE, As for example SG hair pack 268, 350. And moreover, I have no desire again 3-4 years only to screw around and again the same game, I'm tired!
TamaChan Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 -snip- This is meant in response to both your posts. 1)They may have given people with all dlc the game for free, but if you've seen my posts, I point out they did this out of almost certainly desperation and manipulation. a:(deperation) they needed mods to be available at release for consoles, the only way to really offer this would be to offer pc players a free upgrade and beta access. b:(manipulation) sse is basically skyrim mods for console being sold as a retail game. if they expected us to pay another $40+ for sse, it is unlikely a lot of modders would have been as willing to upload stuff to beth.net for consoles user. 2)Bethesda is lazy, because a lot of the "remastering" they did already existed in the game by modders or was simply ported from fo4. If they wanted to do a real remaster, I would expect maybe some better textures, instead of just running them through a program to make them bigger, and especially better faces. Also, much of the stuff they added, not only looks worse than mod available for oldrim, but makes it impossible to port stuff from oldrim to see(see enb and how image modifiers/adapters were changed in sse). 3)You are absolutely right, in theory a beta for the cre--kit is great. The problem is how beth handled it. Go read testimonials from some of the people who participated in the beta, and how they didn't enjoy it. One modder decided he would not upload any of his content to beth.net because of how much the beth personnel neglected him. 4)It is a direct quote, so I will correct myself, it is worse for pc modders. If they only cared about keeping the pc modding community happy, then they wouldn't have made sse in the first place, they would have made a simple skyrim64. Literally the only thing sse has that is really useful to the modding community is 64bit, all their bullshit visual effects, were not only already available, but more stable and generally better looking. Instead they decided to essentially load it up with all this bloatware, so that lots of mods that edit cells have to be fixed because of clipping, all meshes, animations, and esp have to be recompiled, all mods that edit cells where water is have to be edited a bunch to keep the new water(this one is the most excusable of the bunch), and because of their bullshit visual effects, many features of enb would not be viable, and that's if borrus even decides to make enb for sse. So yeah, I am getting a 64bit skyrim, but I am also getting a bunch of shitty lighting effects that can't be easily turned off or edited, and a lighting engine that stops me from being able to use programs and features that made the original skyrim looks 10 times better than sse by default. We might have come out with more positive than negative with sse, but if they really cared about the pc players and not pandering to console players, then they would have put "maintaining as much compatibility with mods as possible" very high on the list of priorities, rather than "how can we take a 5yo game and update it to sell to consoles players". And because I'm pretty sure enb would be incompatible with consoles, which is the main insentive behind deciding to try to make the game look better. 5) Of coarse mods sell the game. The problem is that beth said they would not sacrifice pc quality just to make the game more viable to consoles. And they are taking advantage of the goodwill of modders to sell their game. Because now content creaters are suggested to make their mods compatible with consoles which can be a lot of extra work, and if they don't make their stuff for console, then they're the asshole, because beth has set a standard that you should make stuff for consoles too. When making stuff compatible with consoles starting getting in the way of pc modding, then it becomes a problem. This same problem is happening with fo4. Many of ellianora's house mods cannot be played in their default state on consoles, because you need good hardware to run them. So now you have people stealing her stuff, uploading it to beth.net, and then getting mad at her when she takes all her stuff down, because she doesn't want people stealing her stuff. 6) Modifications are one thing, fixes are another. Have you ever tried running skyrim with max plugin count(250-ish) and at least 10 mods that had constant running scripts like "on updates" and cloak spells without the unofficial patches? I can guarantee you, it is harder by an order of magnitude. After I started using the unofficial patches the game became so much more stable and creates universal application of the rules beth set up in the vanilla game. Without the consistency provided by the patches, it is so much harder to keep track of stuff. I will never go back to not using them. There are also small mods that fix stuff like "crash fixes" and that one mod that fixes the dawnguard quest "impatience of a saint". The problem with beth is that they are trying to interact with the community too much, and are causing problems as a result. They wanna give modders an incentive(I'm being naive here, because I have no proof beth was being greedy), and instead fracture the modding community with paid modding. (fo4)They try to get the console and pc players to get along(being naive again here) and instead get us hating each other more by allowing piracy to be rampant on beth.net. They try to get us friendly again, and instead give the pc modders not enough guidance in the beta, it results in more animosity towards console players. If they want money, it very simple, keep pumping out new games, and talk to the modding community before you make any major gameplay decisions(like getting rid of half the skill trees), and you will make tons of money. The problem was that beth wasn't happy with how much they were making, so they decided to change major aspects or gameplay or try to police the modding community in an attempt at making even more money, and in the end, they piss a bunch of people off, but still make tons of money. We are pissed because they keep doing bad thing to this community and don't have to be held accountable for their actions. Now this last paragraph was mostly full of emotion and blind optimism, but here is a very big problem fact. If beth keeps to bad shit to the modding community, and still making tons of money, they will end up like ea and we will end likes sims modders. Where they do shit, and we have no choice but to accept it because we are their little bitch.
yatol Posted November 9, 2016 Posted November 9, 2016 1) Money grab - Well it was free for the players that would benefit from the upgrade the least hardly a gesture that should be brushed off. So many companies wouldn't have made such a gesture at all. The benefits are of substance and not merely cosmetic. Console users got value from this upgrade they got access to mods and I challenge anyone to honestly say that is an insignificant benefit. Do they have complete access to all the mods PC users get? No but how is that a problem to PC users how are we hurt by this? How are console users hurt by giving them access to something they never had before? Well "PC gamers would b!tch if they made us pay for it..," how the F@ck is that a strike against Bethesda? OMFG they didn't make us pay for it they told us right at the reveal that PC gamers would get it free if we owned the game and all the DLCs. So why are they money grabbing for something they DIDN'T do? it is free for players that have legendary edition to get them to switch and convert their mods to sse to make console players re buy a 5 years old game 2) SSE is lazy? Really lazy? How is putting most of the changes to the game under the hood so to speak instead of simply upgrading the textures, lazy? Lazy remasters are like marvel universe games by activation. The controls didn't work on PC for keyboard or controllers. When you spend the budget on a remaster in improving the engine and physics (water flowing in multiple directions around objects for example) jumping from 32 bit to 64 bit which isn't as simple as just recompiling the 32 bit engine into a 64 bit engine. You are getting real improvements not just a prettier paint job. How is this lazy? This is a remaster remember not a completely new game, it was only ever pitched to people as a remaster. They never promised or implied new content. those changes you are talking about it's just fallout 4 engine update add to skyrim did they put fallout 4 character creation in skyrim? does fallout 4 grass get lightning at night? or have moving trees? or... (it's time to replace that old engine, updates can't do miracles) 3) They released the creation kit early and use that to have mods available for console players at launch. How is that a bloody bad thing? It gives creators a chance to see the new creation kit and learn its idiosyncrasies and it give players mods. This is known as mutually beneficial, just because one side also gets a benefit doesn't negate the benefit we got. And again how does this action HURT PC gamers? How are we injured by this action? How does this lessen our gaming experience? The answer is it doesn't . they are so much help they didn't bother giving to modders the nif convertor to convert skyrim nif to fallout nif (they haven't done that manually... too many nifs) they didn't bother either making a tool to convert mods to sse (there will probably be a convert plugin for tesedit next year) 4)"But when a company decides they are going to ignore the pc players(their most important demographic) in favor of the console players, and make the game shittier because they are sacrificing things to try and sell more copies..." WTF? The game is BETTER for PC users. How is SSE sh!tter for Pc gamers? In what instance is SSE worse than Oldrim? This is your direct quote. You said we are ignored and they made the game sh!ttier, give me an example how SSE is sh!tter for PC players? You can't be so self centred that unless PC users get something only THEY can use it means PC users are ignored and sh!t upon, are you? Are you trying to tell me the benefits to gamers are a zero sum game? Every benefit a console player gets is a benefit a PC player loses or doesn't count as a benefit? Come on. you only have 64 bits skyrim because consoles can handle 64 bits now game would run better if it wasn't optimised for consoles 5) Using modders to sell their games. Unacceptable. So the alternative is that Bethesda makes their next game unmoddable because god forbid they use the strength of a dying feature in gaming modability as a selling point? This makes no sense. by this logic any feature in their games that strengthens modding can be used as an excuse to accuse Bethesda of using mods and by extension modders to sell their games. This is logically inconsistent, you can't use mods personally to improve your gaming experience and then hate on the company that uses this feature to sell their games. Mods are a FEATURE of the game a feature that isn't an after thought but that is part of the core of the games feature set. It is perfectly acceptable to use this feature as a selling point and use mods to show player just what a better experience the game is. WTF do you think PC gamers who own consoles as well will choose to buy the game on PC? Because of MODS mods sell the game on PC and always have and it was the modders that sold the game. Because if modders didn't make the mods we love we would have no mods. On PC this is acceptable but when Bethesda does the same thing on Consoles it is money grubbing and unacceptable? How do you square that circle? many games release the tools use to do content for it, to make the players buy the extensions that are required by some of that content (of course that's for $$$) old game are remake, because it's easy $$$ (game is already done you just have to update graphics) but what did bethesda pick for that? skyrim because making fallout 4 remaster would have been a bad joke (morrowind remaster would have probably make more $$$, but cost much more too) 6) Using modders to fix their games. This is something that is overblown by most mod users. First most mods are not game fixes. They are enhancements and tweaks. Changing how x feature works to make it more in line with your subjective tastes isn't a bug fix. Fixing a missing texture is a bug fix but improving a set of textures to be of a better quality isn't a bug fix. This is not to say that bug don't exist and that modders don't fix them but it isn't as ubiquitous as you imply. Does Bethesda make the game knowing that some things will be changes by players? yes the key is they give people a decent game vanilla and allow people to take this base skeleton and improve on it. If the base games is as bad as some PC users imply this game wouldn't have been a hit on consoles. Bethesda games are console hits so the base game has to have some value to some people. So I don't think you are being fair. some things had to be fixed because the game wasn't ready for release (it's the same with sse no? there's some patchs coming) look for the mod that replace the nifs with broken uv maps, unzip sse bsa, and compare, did they bother putting those fix in sse? some nif don't load the good textures too the blockys nose were because wrong compression format for msn don't remember much skyrim without mods problems since mods take care of most of them (but not all) sse is nothing for now, maybe next year after the ones that already switch got most problems after a lot of mods are updated right after tools are made etc etc maybe it will be worth the trouble of updating (if you are still playing skyrim)
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