HDT SMP for SSE?

[Vyxenne]

On 4/30/2019 at 8:22 PM, cminnow said:

Speaking of "hindsight"

 

 

I don't understand what you're trying to tell me- my "Hindsights" video most assuredly exists! here's another linky to it:

Spoiler

 

 

Even more fun, since making the video, I have gotten two more butt pics as book-page loot drops! So now I'm wondering which mod is generating this funny stuff!

[Vyxenne]

16 hours ago, SunJeong said:

Tons of content out there waiting to be given the smp treatment.

According to one of @Shizof's recent Nexus posts, he plans to incorporate "cloth physics" (blowy wigs, dangly-jangly earrings, swinging pendants, rippling capes and cloaks, swishy skirts, etc. etc. etc.) into CBPC. He stated that he expects to be able to work with Oldrim HDT-PE and SSE HDT-SMP models seamlessly, using their existing xml's.

 

If I read his announcement right, this changes everything- it is the "holy grail" of Skyrim physics to provide physics for Havok and Bullet physics items with no xml rewrite required for the Havok HDT-PE items. If Shizof can pull it off, the only remaining barrier to using HDT-PE physics models in SSE is to find some way to convert the HDT-PE meshes to SSE specs without breaking them as Nif Optimizer (and/or Outfit Studio >> BodySlide) invariably do... or just risk using them in SSE without any conversion.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Vyxenne said:

According to one of @Shizof's recent Nexus posts, he plans to incorporate "cloth physics" (blowy wigs, dangly-jangly earrings, swinging pendants, rippling capes and cloaks, swishy skirts, etc. etc. etc.) into CBPC. He stated that he expects to be able to work with Oldrim HDT-PE and SSE HDT-SMP models seamlessly, using their existing xml's.

 

If I read his announcement right, this changes everything- it is the "holy grail" of Skyrim physics to provide physics for Havok and Bullet physics items with no xml rewrite required for the Havok HDT-PE items. If Shizof can pull it off, the only remaining barrier to using HDT-PE physics models in SSE is to find some way to convert the HDT-PE meshes to SSE specs without breaking them as Nif Optimizer (and/or Outfit Studio >> BodySlide) invariably do... or just risk using them in SSE without any conversion.

Wow this is great news. Especially if we can reuse the same xml file. However is this exclusive to PE? or can the same be said for SMP?

 

Personally I've learned that it's much easier to just redo the entire project from scratch when converting from Oldrim PE to Newrim SMP. Especially if you want the outfit to work with bodyslide. So it's not actually converting you're doing but just redoing the whole thing. Like you said, converting PE meshes to SMP and attempting to give it bodyslide will just break the mesh.

 

You'll save a lot more time and headache just redoing it 

[cminnow]

3 hours ago, SunJeong said:

Wow this is great news. Especially if we can reuse the same xml file. However is this exclusive to PE? or can the same be said for SMP?

 

Personally I've learned that it's much easier to just redo the entire project from scratch when converting from Oldrim PE to Newrim SMP. Especially if you want the outfit to work with bodyslide. So it's not actually converting you're doing but just redoing the whole thing. Like you said, converting PE meshes to SMP and attempting to give it bodyslide will just break the mesh.

 

You'll save a lot more time and headache just redoing it 

And that's why I'm looking forward to seeing what CPBC ends up with. Much simpler system he appears to be trying to create.

 

So is it worth it to push people to learn how to create SMP content right now? Seems like a difficult question.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, cminnow said:

And that's why I'm looking forward to seeing what CPBC ends up with. Much simpler system he appears to be trying to create.

 

So is it worth it to push people to learn how to create SMP content right now? Seems like a difficult question.

Of course it is.

 

All this talk about CBP being better is of course only in theory as we haven't seen it in action and none of us have explored it enough to truly say it's simpler.

 

If people were to learn SMP now, it would make things A LOT easier if they choose to learn CBP's system. If in theory they're supposed to be similar, why not learn it now with HDT-SMP so that CBP becomes more familiar?

 

The answer is most likely because people are too lazy or are relying on others and perhaps using that as an excuse not to learn SMP and wait for CBP.

 

It's almost the same as someone saying "Why learn how to be a mod author for Skyrim Special Edition when The Elder Scrolls 6 is coming out next?". Just learn it now....

[cminnow]

6 hours ago, Vyxenne said:

Even more fun, since making the video, I have gotten two more butt pics as book-page loot drops! So now I'm wondering which mod is generating this funny stuff!

Wait.. you didn't know where this comes from???? That's from the glorious Misty Skye by nerdofprey. Even with such a silly mod, he makes some hilarious stuff. And as for the video... hahaha.... looks like I got banned so you can't see the video. Guess you can't show too much like here.

 

It's actually surprisingly hard to get a rotating motion in SMP. Either stuff is like a rock, twitchy, or balloon-like. I can see why mod authors leave their XMLs looking like a pile of crap. I can't imagine what the PE xml guys went through.

 

[Guest]

[Jasil]

19 hours ago, SunJeong said:

Of course it is.

 

All this talk about CBP being better is of course only in theory as we haven't seen it in action and none of us have explored it enough to truly say it's simpler.

 

If people were to learn SMP now, it would make things A LOT easier if they choose to learn CBP's system. If in theory they're supposed to be similar, why not learn it now with HDT-SMP so that CBP becomes more familiar?

 

The answer is most likely because people are too lazy or are relying on others and perhaps using that as an excuse not to learn SMP and wait for CBP.

 

It's almost the same as someone saying "Why learn how to be a mod author for Skyrim Special Edition when The Elder Scrolls 6 is coming out next?". Just learn it now....

From the viewpoint of a non-modder / a user that likes to play a game his way, I recall the CBP technique being created with TES4:Oblivion and I believe the current iteration is just an update from that old version. Where as SMP was created for TES5:Skyrim and is a newer technology. Unfortunately SMP has had a few issues whenever Bethesda updates their Creation Club, thus forcing SKSE to push out an update and break SMP until it is updated. Still the current version of SMP seems to be stable and I would recommend it for any modders.

 

As for waiting for TES6:Blades, it my opinion it would be a waste for modders. Blades seems to be focused on micro transactions, where the player receives time-locked chests (that can be opened faster with micro transactions) to possibly get better loot from those chests. And I foresee that Bethesda would want to block loot from modders that is better than the time-locked chests. 

[cminnow]

1 hour ago, Jasil said:

From the viewpoint of a non-modder / a user that likes to play a game his way, I recall the CBP technique being created with TES4:Oblivion and I believe the current iteration is just an update from that old version. Where as SMP was created for TES5:Skyrim and is a newer technology. Unfortunately SMP has had a few issues whenever Bethesda updates their Creation Club, thus forcing SKSE to push out an update and break SMP until it is updated. Still the current version of SMP seems to be stable and I would recommend it for any modders.

 

As for waiting for TES6:Blades, it my opinion it would be a waste for modders. Blades seems to be focused on micro transactions, where the player receives time-locked chests (that can be opened faster with micro transactions) to possibly get better loot from those chests. And I foresee that Bethesda would want to block loot from modders that is better than the time-locked chests. 

 

Thanks for ending Elder Scrolls and the Fallout series, Bethesda. They are going full Telltale games

 

Crossing my fingers for Outer Worlds.

[Jasil]

9 minutes ago, cminnow said:

 

Thanks for ending Elder Scrolls and the Fallout series, Bethesda. They are going full Telltale games

 

Crossing my fingers for Outer Worlds.

I agree that Bethesda seems to be shifting to the mobile casual gamer, rather then their tried-and-true hardcore gamers. This is one of the reasons why I am supporting SudioFOW and their new game project. They seem to be focused on creating a high quality adult game for the player that is highly polished rather than try to add on a bunch of broken crap to a mediocre game. I just hope that they stay true to their word and make the high quality game, after that I hope the triple-A game makers see the success of this new game and go back to making high quality games for the hardcore players rather than forcing everyone to the mobile platform with micro transactions. 

[zarantha]

5 hours ago, Jasil said:

As for waiting for TES6:Blades,

Blades is not TES6, that won't be out until probably 2021 at the earliest. We'll get Starfield before TES6. Blades can be done without the micro transactions, but it takes *a lot* of grinding to do so, and quests/dungeons can get repetitive quickly. It works for getting an ES fix on my break at work tho.

[Vyxenne]

On 5/2/2019 at 10:08 PM, cminnow said:

And that's why I'm looking forward to seeing what CPBC ends up with. Much simpler system he appears to be trying to create.

 

On 5/2/2019 at 10:58 PM, SunJeong said:

All this talk about CBP being better is of course only in theory as we haven't seen it in action and none of us have explored it enough to truly say it's simpler.

I think whether or not @Shizof's CBPC is or will be "better" and/or "simpler" is partly academic, as SunJeong says, but also partly visible now based on the clues we already have based on the only functions so far that both CBPC and SMP have in common: Body Physics.

 

It's undeniable that nobody but HydrogensaysHDT has the source code for SMP, and so nobody here can say if CBPC is technically "better" or "simpler" than SMP. Still, I would have to agree with cminnow that we have enough evidence already to suggest that it is probably functionally better and/or simpler- CBPC does approximately the same job as SMP with less than half of the frame rate penalty and none of the slideshows/freezes/CTDs afflicting SMP. Some have said that SMP may provide slightly more realistic breast movement than CBPC, but I can't tell the difference.

 

Personally, I can't use SMP for both body and cloth physics without dipping into the low 20's on frame rate in Whiterun, Riften and a couple of other places, like the Stinking Weevil  in Solitude. On the other hand, I run around in an SMP wig, SMP earrings, an SMP skirt and sometimes an SMP amulet, and my twin-sister-slash-follower wears the same stuff I do.... plus, of course, breast, butt and belly physics for both of us. So I may be "consuming" more Physics goodness than some players do. With CBPC I'm able to achieve body physics indistinguishable (to me) from SMP body physics and still equip both of us with SMP clothing, jewelry and wig while never dipping below 45 FPS even in Riften. Not bad for an old i5-3570K+GTX970 rutabaga.

 

The other area where CBPC shines is in documentation and simplicity of configuration, especially if you use 3aq's CBPC-MCM mod as an in-game configurator. No xml coding to learn, no conflicting documentation claiming that "prenetration" is an actual parameter or tag, no jumping out and into of the game to tweak and test a setting. Just open MCM and tick a different box.

 

So while CBPC may not really be "better/simpler" than SMP by some as-yet-unknown measurements, my in-game results using it for body physics are better than when I used SMP for it. Much better. And simpler, too, thanks to 3aq's mod.

[Guest]

The Effects of Wind

 

 

 

 

 

[realclone]

I feel that you have misunderstanding about smp. In fact, SMP does not consume more resources than others. The essence of the problem is that SMP can generate a large number of physical collisions in an instant. If you are not skilled in XML writing, SMP will consume your machine resources. Smp collisions are generated based on the number of meshes on the surface of the model, so collision is the key. When CBP add the collision changed to CBPC, we can see a loss in the number of frames, as for HDT-PE. So far, I haven't seen much use of long skirt physics, either CBPC hdt-smp or hdt-pe,they're all CPU software acceleration, not GPU

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, realclone said:

I feel that you have misunderstanding about smp. In fact, SMP does not consume more resources than others. The essence of the problem is that SMP can generate a large number of physical collisions in an instant. If you are not skilled in XML writing, SMP will consume your machine resources. Smp collisions are generated based on the number of meshes on the surface of the model, so collision is the key. When CBP joins the collision changed to CBPC, we can see a loss in the number of frames, as for HDT-PE. So far, I haven't seen much use of long skirt physics, either CBPC hdt-smp or hdt-pe,they're all CPU software acceleration, not GPU

 

"Resource" ?

 

[Rynnes Master]

@Vyxenne, what or where is 3aq's CBPC-MCM mod ?  Apparently I missed this one.

[nocte7]

34 minutes ago, Rynnes Master said:

@Vyxenne, what or where is 3aq's CBPC-MCM mod ?  Apparently I missed this one.

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/24313

 

Pretty sure it's just this, SINful CBP, has a MCM to allow you to store presets and switch between them on the fly.

[Rynnes Master]

Thank you.   I had missed that one!

[cminnow]

6 hours ago, realclone said:

I feel that you have misunderstanding about smp. In fact, SMP does not consume more resources than others. The essence of the problem is that SMP can generate a large number of physical collisions in an instant. If you are not skilled in XML writing, SMP will consume your machine resources. Smp collisions are generated based on the number of meshes on the surface of the model, so collision is the key. When CBP joins the collision changed to CBPC, we can see a loss in the number of frames, as for HDT-PE. So far, I haven't seen much use of long skirt physics, either CBPC hdt-smp or hdt-pe,they're all CPU software acceleration, not GPU

I believe this is also referred to as the "no free lunch" theorem. But you've explained the predicament exactly. Optimizing collisions and perhaps adding the GPU with Physx are the only ways to really improve the actual performance. Otherwise, it's just simplifying it for the end user and distributors of content (which isn't unimportant either).

[Bluegunk]

HDT-SMP DLL issues....

 

Has anyone recently had their game losing animations - usually fired arrows instantly vanishing is the first sign - and then when saving it goes into deep freeze?  

Opening the map can induce the freeze too.

 

Since the last Windows 10 Update (Home Edition) a couple of days back, I have had this happen. I can play for about a minute and then down it goes.

 

I ran a DMP analysis and up comes good old HDTSSEPhysics.dll and a memory stack overflow issue on c0000409.  Unfortunately my DMP analyser does not seem to be able to get the right symbols for correct analysis. But I guess something in WIndows 10 may have changed that's altered HDT's up-to-now successful run?

 

Curious for ideas and any info. Thanks!

 

UPDATE - turns out the default HDT XML was corrupted. Reloading the mods sorted it.  Case closed!

 

 

[Vyxenne]

10 hours ago, Rynnes Master said:

@Vyxenne, what or where is 3aq's CBPC-MCM mod ?  Apparently I missed this one.

Yes, it's apparently now named Sinful CBP, the 3rd or 4th name it has had in the past month or so. Sorry I referenced it using last week's name.

[Guest]

 

[Sakatraka]

SUPERB!

[Vyxenne]

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 5:31 AM, Kokan said:

 

"Resource" ?

 

I see you have some system tools. Do you know of a tool that can troubleshoot my GTX970? I keep getting Windows messages that my system is slow due to graphics overload (!!!!) and do I want to shift to an 8-bit desktop color scheme? I tell it "Keep the current scheme and don't ask me again" but *sigh* it asks me again every time I come out of SSE or most other games and apps. I need something that will let me find out if my GTX970 really is "broken" or if it's just Windows being stupid. So far I have not been able to Google up anything helpful, and NVIDIA offers no such tools or any other help except BUY THIS CARD AT QUADRUPLE THE USUAL PRICE BECAUSE BITCOIN."

[nocte7]

21 minutes ago, Vyxenne said:

I see you have some system tools. Do you know of a tool that can troubleshoot my GTX970? I keep getting Windows messages that my system is slow due to graphics overload (!!!!) and do I want to shift to an 8-bit desktop color scheme? I tell it "Keep the current scheme and don't ask me again" but *sigh* it asks me again every time I come out of SSE or most other games and apps. I need something that will let me find out if my GTX970 really is "broken" or if it's just Windows being stupid. So far I have not been able to Google up anything helpful, and NVIDIA offers no such tools or any other help except BUY THIS CARD AT QUADRUPLE THE USUAL PRICE BECAUSE BITCOIN."

The prompt asking you to switch to an 8-bit color scheme implies that you have it set to something higher like 10 or 12. Unless you specifically have a monitor that handles higher bit colors you should use 8 bit, and you should probably use 8 bit anyway with a 970. If you are on 8 bit color already, Windows probably is being dumb again.