GrimReaper Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 We're STILL getting less payment for the same jobs. This is false. Women make the same pay for the same jobs as men. The reason women in general make less income than men is because of the kinds of jobs they usually take, not because of how much each job pays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Gender_Gap_Report I'd say this is a difficult topic with many variables. Maybe even too many to take them all into account.
Kamen Rider Kuuga Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 If there's one good thing to come from this thread, it's that I know who to block.
windpl Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I'm sorry. I have 45 years of bottled rage behind me and I just explode when I hear people bashing "the feminists". I'll try and stay out of threads like this in the future. Back to mermaids and werewolf sex I go. When feminists are coming up with irrational shit like "positive discrimination" don't be surprised that people don't like to defy logic.
Kamen Rider Kuuga Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 You can't check the news without finding that somewhere a woman has been slaughtered by a man. And nobody gives a damn because it's COMMON. Aren't you exaggerating a bit? At least in the United States, the National Crime Victimization Survey as released by the Bureau of Justice Statistics is quite clear that cisgender women are less likely to be victims of violent crime than cisgender men. There's been a reduction of the gap in recent years, but that's come entirely from drops in the number of male victims of violent crime, and not from any increase in the number of female victims. Only transgender women are at a significantly higher risk of being victims of violence than cisgender men in the United States. Oi, oi! You can't be usin' facts! That's very triggerin' to certain folk on the intrawebz!
Vacaliga Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 That being said though, there are a lot of angry young men on the internet who outright hate women, our beloved friend Darkening Demise being one of them. He hates women because he wants them but they don't want him. Part of the problem is that women who are promiscuous are viewed as sluts or 'used goods' and women who aren't are stuck up bitches because they refuse to have sex with you. It's quite schizophrenic if you think about it. Genderspecific topics are relevant as long as there are genderspecific problems, so proclaiming we need more egalitarianism and less feminism is ignoring the fact that there still are issues you exclusively have to face when belonging to a certain biological gender. Yes, we're all humans and no, we don't get all treated the same. Pretending that everyone gets treated equally does not make the inequality go away. Very true, one problem however is that talking about this is often that it is not a one on one debate, but rather two groups duking it out with there own little theme songs and slogans, and that is where the stereotyping and generalisation really show their ugly faces. But it happens on a person by person basis to sadly, one example of this is a little story about Janice and Michael: A secretary was walking home on night passing by a nightclub, outside the nightclub stud a bouncer, as the secretary passed, the bouncer felt an urge to get some action and decided to act on this sudden impulse by raping the secretary in a nearby ally. Now most people, admittedly myself included would be surprised to learn that the secretary's name was Michael and the bouncer was named Janice, and the horror of the crime would now feel somewhat reduced, even knowing that it shouldn't be. This is not some statement about males being suppressed when it comes to being victims of sexual assault, but merely pointing out that we tend to react on impulse rather than rational thought, and when combined with mob mentality it's a recipe for disaster that further fuels stereotypes that each side is so fond of accusing the other of drawing, and when the oppressed is fueling the very same fire that oppresses them it becomes a really tricky problem to solve. From the definition of rape it's not possible for a women to rape a man - sexual assault yes but not rape Come on now you are just nit-picking, but okay I stand corrected.
Someone92 Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I personally try to wear eighty pounds of plate steel when standing in a small, easily-tipped-over boat on a big lake. I'm sure nothing can go wrong. I'd be more amazed at the special laws of physics that you believe in that manages to create armour that would actually be worth wearing without having any weight or mobility restrictions I'd take the stuff that might actually deflect a blow but runs the risk of immobilising me if i'm stupid enough to lose my footing myself I remember we had a thread about medieval armour here a while ago. Ironically it was also about boob armour: http://www.loverslab.com/topic/17055-realism-vs-cool-blog-criticizes-boob-plate-armor/ A quote from said thread: Watch this. Really, watch it.
Adorkable Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 It's true that the wage gap is not so much about being paid less for the same position in the same company as a woman than you would as a man, but about women in general earning less than men. Which is because women tend to work lower class jobs or go into the service sector. And the reason for that is usually because, you know, gender roles. They exist, they're here, and we all force them on people subconsciously. As a girl, you usually get encouraged to be quiet and kind and caring and shit. It's what people expect of you, because that's what people expect women to be like. Or want women to be like, who knows. Point is, media enforces those stereotypes. (I mean, have you looked at commercials aimed at children? It's one big clusterfuck of stereotypes.) Children grow up thinking they should be a certain way. Men are supposed to be practical and often get defined by their status (their job, how much money they make..etc.), so they decide to go for a job that makes a lots of money. Women are supposed to be caretakers, so they go for jobs that cater to that. It's a subtle influence, but it's there and anyone who can't see or refuses to acknowledge that media does have an influence on society (I know, I know, evil Anita Sarkeesian and her audacity to...I don't know, talk about stuff that might actually not be all that wrong?) is....well, quite honestly, I have no idea, because it's utterly nonsensical to deny it. Nobody's saying that playing violent video games will make you go on a rampage, but being bombarded with imagery like that throughout your life WILL influence it. We're constantly influenced by everything around us, nobody's above it. That's why awareness is so important.The problem with stuff like quotas ('positive discrimination') is that it's incredibly hard to judge. One one hand, I'm inclined to say that no, it's not equality to give women a better shot. On the other hand, one has to consider that they're trying to equalize a wrong here. Centuries of sexism have kind of left their mark on...well, everything. Women get promoted into leadership positions less often because of a lot of reasons. Left-over sexism, the fact that women are less likely to be demanding in their work place and are often looked down upon when they are (hello gender roles my old friend)...etc. Moreover no company is forced to fill the quote and most don't.It's not an ideal solution, that much is clear, but no one has come up with a better one yet.
pinky6225 Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 My only grudge is against people who don't know anything about history and don't care but instead measure everything with their personal experience. I'm not holding "all men" or "you" responsible for the atrocities men have done and still do to women. But when I read the "the feminists" "ruin" equal rights, I explode. There would be no equal rights for women if feminists hadn't fought for them. There would be no legal framework that gave ANY rights to women. Educate yourself about who fought for these rights we (read: western women cause others have it worse than us) have today. Hint: it was not men. Another hint: that fight isn't over just because some guy thinks it doesn't concern him. Fuck, I knew I should never have read the opening post. Comparing the feminists of history (like the suffragattes) to the feminists of today does a huge disservice to the sacrfice the women from history have made, today a scientist tells a bad joke and he's blasted with insults and calls to resign etc in the name of feminism this was not what they marched for. I'm sorry i don't see how you can compare the two and call them the same, perhaps i'm being harsh on the most vocal ones today or perhaps i'm being overly generous in my respect for historical figures As I've never murdered, raped, violated, degraded etc anyone I again am not taking responsibility for this - I'm a bit confused as to why you expect all men to take responsibility for this when they haven't actually done this as this seems the exact sort of discrimation that they have been fighting against This is true for most men, but that doesn't matter. Think about how black people were treated back then in the USA - many white people didn't own slaves or didn't beat and humiliate black people. But there was a consensus amongst most of the white folks that black people are inferior, only good for something when there was a white guy telling them what to do. This consensus created an atmosphere that made it possible for the more radical elements to flourish. It provided the slave owners the fuel - i.e. justification and opportunity - to treat their slaves how they wanted to. So the white guys and gals that didn't own slaves or at least didn't degrade black people directly were still a big part of the problem, because they provided the fundament more extreme people needed. The same, more or less, applies to women. Do women have it better now? Yes, sure. But it's not enough yet as it seems. There are still plenty people around who act apologetic for any violence against women, such as people who blame a rape victim for the rape because 'she was asking for it' etc. If you compare the complains most men have it's most of the time that they are frustrated because they don't get laid. And then they call it getting oppressed. Just read a bit about PUA-communities or the aftermath of the Isla Vista killings. Many angry men called Elliot Rodger a hero for finally doing something about the female oppression against men (read: they don't get laid), many stating that if women were more ready to give blow jobs and spread their legs this wouldn't have happened, blaming women indirectly for the massacre. These people are the radical elements, like the slave owners. People bashing on feminism and talking about how men are the poor sods nowadays provide the necessary fuel for those people to feel accepted by their peers. As you see, it's a big problem and it isn't over yet. Yes, there are very important problems that only affect men. For example, if you're gay or transgender, prepare for a lot of heat, and not in a good way. Or if you are a father and getting divorced from the mother of your children and you are arguing who is getting the right of custody, you're screwed in most cases. But nobody really talks about that, it's always the same deal: WAH WAH NOBODY WANTS MY D I can think about this but again i wasnt alive during segregation and Martin Luther had been long dead before i was even a glint in my daddies eye, I've grown up accepting that people of different race are pretty much the same under the surface so again i wouldn't apologies for the racist actions of whites even though i'm white as i've never taken any part in any racist actions So i think it still does matter Out of those of us that met are grand parents / great grand parents do you honestly think every great grand daddy beat every great nan? as it would have been socially permissible still during their time but i would still think it was very much a rarity Speaking for my own grand parents no i don't think its likely. Edit: Gotta say even i'm pretty amazed at how this thread has digressed
Someone92 Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 We're STILL getting less payment for the same jobs.I find it amazing that there are gullible people around who believe in the gender pay gap. Do you really believe a significant number of companies do pay certain employees ~33% more just to have more dicks hanging around in the office? Even in Germany there is no conclusive evidence that women are paid less for the same job. Yes, I know that according to the Federal Office of Statistics the cleaned pay gap is 7-8%. However if you read said study you will find (iirc on page 5) that they did not consider parental leave and other breaks in their calculations as they were lacking data about it. The Institut der deutschen Wirtschaft Köln (IW) considered parental leave and other breaks longer than 18 months in their calculation, and came to the result that the cleaned by gap is 2%. But they, too, stated that just because the calculated pay gap is not zero women get paid less because they are women, as there are a lot of other factors that lead to a different income but cannot be or almost impossible to statistically measured. You can't check the news without finding that somewhere a woman has been slaughtered by a man. And nobody gives a damn because it's COMMON.Globally men are about four times more often the victim of homicide. In hotspots the situation is even more loop-sided, e.g. in Mexico men are about eleven times more likely to be killed. Yet, as you have stated, you hardly read about homicides in the news if the victims are male. I find it amusing that in your twisted mind that is not proof that we, humanity, care far less about the lives of men but care less about the lives of women. When e.g. when Boko Haram abducted about 200 girls it was global news, and the *BringBackOurGirls hashtag went viral. However, nobody cared that just 2 months earlier, Boko Haram raided a school, killed every boy in it they could find, then barricaded all entrances and burn the school down, burning all boys alive who were still hiding inside; maybe this event did not become global news because Boko Haram let all the girls who were also in the school run away? Not to mention, in the two years prior Boko Haram abducted in total over 1000 boys and either trained them to be child soldiers, used them as sex slaves or sold them into slavery. Again, back when Boko Haram only targeted boys and men their atrocities were not global news, either. Hm, I'm starting to see a trend here...
Suludi Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 Yes, it's horrible and I didn't know about the Boko Haram thing. However, I'm a woman and in this csae, I talk about women being killed by men. Most men are not being killed by women, so yours is a strawman argument cause it has absolutely nothing to do with gender. Don't bother replying, I refuse to talk to somebody who calls me gullible and says I have a twisted mind just because my experience is different from yours. Go fuck yourself. Oh, and happy birthday.
windpl Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 It's true that the wage gap is not so much about being paid less for the same position in the same company as a woman than you would as a man, but about women in general earning less than men. Which is because women tend to work lower class jobs or go into the service sector. And the reason for that is usually because, you know, gender roles. They exist, they're here, and we all force them on people subconsciously. As a girl, you usually get encouraged to be quiet and kind and caring and shit. It's what people expect of you, because that's what people expect women to be like. Or want women to be like, who knows. Point is, media enforces those stereotypes. (I mean, have you looked at commercials aimed at children? It's one big clusterfuck of stereotypes.) Children grow up thinking they should be a certain way. Men are supposed to be practical and often get defined by their status (their job, how much money they make..etc.), so they decide to go for a job that makes a lots of money. Women are supposed to be caretakers, so they go for jobs that cater to that. It's a subtle influence, but it's there and anyone who can't see or refuses to acknowledge that media does have an influence on society (I know, I know, evil Anita Sarkeesian and her audacity to...I don't know, talk about stuff that might actually not be all that wrong?) is....well, quite honestly, I have no idea, because it's utterly nonsensical to deny it. Nobody's saying that playing violent video games will make you go on a rampage, but being bombarded with imagery like that throughout your life WILL influence it. We're constantly influenced by everything around us, nobody's above it. That's why awareness is so important. The problem with stuff like quotas ('positive discrimination') is that it's incredibly hard to judge. One one hand, I'm inclined to say that no, it's not equality to give women a better shot. On the other hand, one has to consider that they're trying to equalize a wrong here. Centuries of sexism have kind of left their mark on...well, everything. Women get promoted into leadership positions less often because of a lot of reasons. Left-over sexism, the fact that women are less likely to be demanding in their work place and are often looked down upon when they are (hello gender roles my old friend)...etc. Moreover no company is forced to fill the quote and most don't. It's not an ideal solution, that much is clear, but no one has come up with a better one yet. About first part I was more in to punk culture so really I shit on what media say, cant relate to that. About second part, oh no they aren't forced but they will get tax cuts. And what companies are for? To make profit, thing that feminist tend to forget. Employers don't look what you have in pants, they want effective worker. My friend is a bank manager, you know what ratio is? 100 female employees, he is only one male in his agency, and only male manager in region (124 total).
Vacaliga Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 We're STILL getting less payment for the same jobs.I find it amazing that there are gullible people around who believe in the gender pay gap. Do you really believe a significant number of companies do pay certain employees ~33% more just to have more dicks hanging around in the office? Well in certain industries mine included the wage gap is very real, not uncommon that i have to pay a female model 35-70% more than a male after a photoshoot. Forgive me, could not resist whining just a little bit.
Luminar Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 Yes, it's horrible and I didn't know about the Boko Haram thing. However, I'm a woman and in this csae, I talk about women being killed by men. Most men are not being killed by women, so yours is a strawman argument cause it has absolutely nothing to do with gender. Don't bother replying, I refuse to talk to somebody who calls me gullible and says I have a twisted mind just because my experience is different from yours. Go fuck yourself. Oh, and happy birthday. Male on Male violence has nothing to do with gender? That's a new one to me. If gender didn't come into play in the way that people commit violence you wouldn't see the victimization gap between men and women when it comes to violent crime. Most murdered men might not be murdered by women, but male on male violence definitely has something to do with gender. Let's not willfully sink into the mire of gender parochialism when discussing the issue of violence, as parochialism is the number one way that feminism has done a disservice to women and minorities throughout its history. (Women of color, poor women, trans-women, etc. have all been harmed by this habit) And I don't think it's a strawman argument to point to examples of people giving a damn about violence against cis-women as a counterargument to your claim that people don't give a damn, nor do I think it's a strawman argument for a person to suggest that what society pays attention to regarding violence and victim gender is the opposite of what you suggested in your post. The reality is that feminism has had a great deal of success in denormalizing violence against cis-women in western society, and has created substantial awareness about the dangers faced by cis-women. It is not unfair for cis-men to point out that a similar level of denormalization has not occurred for them, or that the reporting on violence occurs in such a way that male victims are de-gendered. (A notable example is the reporting on the violence in Kosovo from the 90s. While female victims were often explicitly gendered, male victims were not [often described as simply "people" or some other gender-neutral identifier], even when men were the only victims in a particular circumstance) That men most often suffer the violence committed by other men should not diminish these complaints. Comparing the feminists of history (like the suffragattes) to the feminists of today does a huge disservice to the sacrfice the women from history have made, today a scientist tells a bad joke and he's blasted with insults and calls to resign etc in the name of feminism this was not what they marched for. Although many of the cultural criticisms made by modern feminists ring hollow to many ears, the reality is that modern feminists are much better than the suffragettes and their other predecessors. The feminists of today have worked hard to embrace the multifaceted and complex nature of the people they advocate for, and have made great strides in moving away from the classism of the suffragettes, the racism and race parochialism of the mid 20th century feminists, and the homophobia and transphobia of older feminists. Feminists have a lot of problems, but the reality is that the older parts of the movement were in many ways worse. We'd have had a much better feminism today if the suffragettes were more like third-wave feminists.
RitualClarity Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 We're STILL getting less payment for the same jobs.I find it amazing that there are gullible people around who believe in the gender pay gap. Do you really believe a significant number of companies do pay certain employees ~33% more just to have more dicks hanging around in the office? Well in certain industries mine included the wage gap is very real, not uncommon that i have to pay a female model 35-70% more than a male after a photoshoot. Forgive me, could not resist whining just a little bit. Female porn stars also demand more wages for their work.. That's right.. demand.. and they get it if they are popular or in demand.
GrimReaper Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 It's a subtle influence, but it's there and anyone who can't see or refuses to acknowledge that media does have an influence on society (I know, I know, evil Anita Sarkeesian and her audacity to...I don't know, talk about stuff that might actually not be all that wrong?) is....well, quite honestly, I have no idea, because it's utterly nonsensical to deny it. Nobody's saying that playing violent video games will make you go on a rampage, but being bombarded with imagery like that throughout your life WILL influence it. We're constantly influenced by everything around us, nobody's above it. That's why awareness is so important. As far as videogames go, studies revealed that their influence is only temporary. As you said, violent games don't make you violent. Our brain is capable of distinguishing betweeen reality and fiction, I don't know why sexism should be any different.
Ayn Sof Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 It's a subtle influence, but it's there and anyone who can't see or refuses to acknowledge that media does have an influence on society (I know, I know, evil Anita Sarkeesian and her audacity to...I don't know, talk about stuff that might actually not be all that wrong?) is....well, quite honestly, I have no idea, because it's utterly nonsensical to deny it. Nobody's saying that playing violent video games will make you go on a rampage, but being bombarded with imagery like that throughout your life WILL influence it. We're constantly influenced by everything around us, nobody's above it. That's why awareness is so important. Welcome to Loverslab! the amazing place where you can find thousands of objectified virtual womyns, rape and bestiality simulators, and also...loli mods! We hope you enjoy your stay here!
Kamen Rider Kuuga Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 There are no loli mods, you liar. YOU'RE A BIG FAT PHONY!
Guest endgameaddiction Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 A game is supposed to be an escape from reality. What ever you do to your game is your own business. No one else's. People who can't understand that shouldn't be modding their game(s) to begin with,
Chbaakal Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 A game is supposed to be an escape from reality. What ever you do to your game is your own business. No one else's. People who can't understand that shouldn't be modding their game(s) to begin with, Exactly the point that should have been adhered to before the discussion....de-evolved. Yes we all know humans, both male and female, can be ignorant, careless, unthinking, blind, brainwashed, driven by their lusts and fears, self-absorbed, controlling, belligerent, spiteful, and generally bad news. Duh. They can also be the opposite of everything formerly listed, another well-known fact. But do you really think that ALL males are hidden rapists and killers just because of what's in the games they play and mod? Do you think that ALL women who put the same mods (including sex, rape and bdsm) into their games are sluts or deranged psychotics? I only have skimpy armor mods in MY games because I worship and adore the healthy female form in many aspects. The sex mods only make the game more challenging to get through without.... 'getting fucked' as it were. I have no BDSM, no oversized, grossly exaggerated women in my games. And I have no desire whatsoever to abuse any women (or go on a killing spree) because of gaming and modding. And that's taking into account that MY brain has a benign tumour-like growth residing in it that affects my personality, memory and thought processes, and that I've kept rigid control over my mind (including the ramdom 'Imps of the Perverse') without chemicals or medical aids successfully for MANY, many years. So. Let's get back to the bloody topic, shall we? Or not. Either way, I'm going back to continue my Torchlight 2 Skimpy Armor modding. I have still TONS of crap to remake and add before I can FINALLY release the damn thing here (the only mature site that it'll be uploaded to.....). Peace.
DoctaSax Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Closing due to politics and everything that comes with it.
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