Prison Overhaul Patched (LE)

[Kelinari]

I would need a log for that.

 

For me? How would I go about getting a log? (I'm not very techy)

[Inte]

 

Ok, done!

That just leaves the arm cuffs, armbinder, belt, plugs, etc.

I cannot use magical items in place of those because of the various animations involved.

 

Ok, help me here. We have the whipping scene and the pillory punishment that don't work well with hands tied. That needs to be looked at, yes. What else would break?

 

The belts shouldn't matter (I think), because if DDI is installed (which sort of is a given if the character is wearing a belt), the animation filter should pick a sex animation that works. Same for arm cuffs, they never matter.

 

 

Right, here I go again.

• Armbinder - no hands when in the pillory, suspended, or pretty much all ZaZ poses, and an armbinder backpack - not very immersive. 
• Arm cuffs - block equipping of ZaZ cuffs resulting in walking around with free hands - most definitely not immersive or acceptable.
• Belt - limit way too many animations, and almost all pillory ones, so no go.
• Plugs - pop out of pillory animation to 'Allow hands to wander' ... heck no.
• Harness - same as belt.
• Blindfold - fuck no.
• Boots - maybe - but they throw off the pillory alignment.
• Corset - pop out of pillory or other animations to 'catch breath'?
• Gag - unless ring - limit all oral fun, food consumption, and can't talk to follower.  
• Leg cuffs - do not matter.

 

I would need a log for that.

 

For me? How would I go about getting a log? (I'm not very techy)

 

 

Like in here.

 

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/22241-support-troubleshooting-guide-read-me-before-posting-here/?p=549438

[Kimy]

Ok, 10, 9, 6 = no problem (gags limiting food consumption is a feature, not a bug, so...), 4, 8 I can fix in DDI if you want me to, 3, 7, 5 doesn't matter except with pillory. See below.

 

Actual issues:

2 - would need to check if blocked by a DD item and replace with an actual DD restraint, armbinder or yoke maybe. Not a lot of work to fix. You can use SendModEvent triggers to equip an armbinder without even linking to DD. Probably again in the 10 min range to get done.

1, 3, 7, 5 all boil down to the same thing, which is providing an alternative to the pillory punishment and whipping scene. That's the only thing that needs an amount of work greater than 10 mins, really. My -personal- suggestion would be using a conventional whipping scene in its place when one of these items is present. I implemented one in DCL, feel free to borrow the code if you wish, it should work pretty much 1:1. Again, it's up to you. I am certainly not going to tell you how to code your mod, except saying that wiping off other mods' quest items is not an ideal solution. I would think the alternative whipping scene takes about as much work as you needed to write the brutal function that wipes off DD quest items.

[Inte]

Ok,

• Food consumption is needed as per real needs mods, as in they will kill the PC if food is not available for say 10 days.  
• Yes, 4, 8 - should be fixed in DDi anyway, no?  
• As per No. 2 ... wait, DCL cuffs can be removed and replaced with any DD restraints, but not with a ZaZ one? Why?
• The 1, 3, 7, 5 - there can't be an alternative to the pillory punishment as all furniture poses I know of include ZaZ furniture, unless you know something I don't? Even if I was to change the pillory to say the X, rack or even just chains - the same problems would exist. I do not like furniture-less 'frozen' poses.
• If by conventional you mean for the PC to just sit there 'magically frozen' and take a good whipping, then no - I do not find that to be very immersive.

It seems to me it would be much easier to pause DCL effects for the duration of the arrest. All items are re-equipped after anyways.
You know just add this to your conditions,

(StorageUtil.GetIntValue(PlayerRef, "xpoPCArrested") == 1)

It might be apples to oranges, but I can remove and equip CD items day long with no side effects.

 

Now with all that being said, you are correct quest items of other mods should not be permanently removed, but temporary - should be OK.

[Kelinari]

 

 

Ok, done!

That just leaves the arm cuffs, armbinder, belt, plugs, etc.

I cannot use magical items in place of those because of the various animations involved.

 

Ok, help me here. We have the whipping scene and the pillory punishment that don't work well with hands tied. That needs to be looked at, yes. What else would break?

 

The belts shouldn't matter (I think), because if DDI is installed (which sort of is a given if the character is wearing a belt), the animation filter should pick a sex animation that works. Same for arm cuffs, they never matter.

 

 

Right, here I go again.

• Armbinder - no hands when in the pillory, suspended, or pretty much all ZaZ poses, and an armbinder backpack - not very immersive. 
• Arm cuffs - block equipping of ZaZ cuffs resulting in walking around with free hands - most definitely not immersive or acceptable.
• Belt - limit way too many animations, and almost all pillory ones, so no go.
• Plugs - pop out of pillory animation to 'Allow hands to wander' ... heck no.
• Harness - same as belt.
• Blindfold - fuck no.
• Boots - maybe - but they throw off the pillory alignment.
• Corset - pop out of pillory or other animations to 'catch breath'?
• Gag - unless ring - limit all oral fun, food consumption, and can't talk to follower.  
• Leg cuffs - do not matter.

 

I would need a log for that.

 

For me? How would I go about getting a log? (I'm not very techy)

 

 

Like in here.

 

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/22241-support-troubleshooting-guide-read-me-before-posting-here/?p=549438

 

 

I kinda have 107 mods active but heres all the log data ^^' sorry I can't help more. Papyrus.0.log

[Kimy]

Ok,

• Food consumption is needed as per real needs mods, as in they will kill the PC if food is not available for say 10 days.  
• Yes, 4, 8 - should be fixed in DDi anyway, no?  
• As per No. 2 ... wait, DCL cuffs can be removed and replaced with any DD restraints, but not with a ZaZ one? Why?
• The 1, 3, 7, 5 - there can't be an alternative to the pillory punishment as all furniture poses I know of include ZaZ furniture, unless you know something I don't? Even if I was to change the pillory to say the X, rack or even just chains - the same problems would exist. I do not like furniture-less 'frozen' poses.
• If by conventional you mean for the PC to just sit there 'magically frozen' and take a good whipping, then no - I do not find that to be very immersive.

It seems to me it would be much easier to pause DCL effects for the duration of the arrest. All items are re-equipped after anyways.

You know just add this to your conditions,

(StorageUtil.GetIntValue(PlayerRef, "xpoPCArrested") == 1)

It might be apples to oranges, but I can remove and equip CD items day long with no side effects.

 

Now with all that being said, you are correct quest items of other mods should not be permanently removed, but temporary - should be OK.

 

1. It's again nothing that doesn't occasionally occur with general use of DD. At least it's absolutely not a problem between DD and PO. If anything it's a problem between DD and RND. Myself, I have been using RND for ages together with DD, and yes, every now and then it would have killed me, admitted. Tbh, I used to just switch it off until I get rid of the gag then. These days I have added a feature to DCL to allow you to ask for food, so NPCs can feed you. Yes, through the gag. No, it's not hyper realistic, but it solves the issue and satisfies RND.

 

2. It's not yet in, because it's not a general issue. This is an actual incompatibility between DD and PO that would require a fix specific to it. As I said, I can add it.

 

3. I didn't say remove the arm cuffs, I meant adding a DD wrist restraint when the arm cuffs slot is occupied by a DD item, so that the proper bound animation will play. This can occur only in situations when arm cuffs are worn, but wrist restraints (armbinder, yoke) are not, mind you. So you can just equip something in the free slot.

 

4. I didn't mean using another furniture pose, I mean using NO furniture pose. The code I had in mind for the scene is an NPC (in your case the jailer) whipping the player while she's just standing. Both DCL and Sex Slaves have such scenes. I wrote mine -specifically- for situations when the player is already bound and thus can't be suspended etc.

 

5. Well, ok, that's the real issue. Actually this means I wouldn't have had to write anything about 1-4, but I suppose I wanted to be constructive and show that's quite possible to make PO fully compatible with DD. I can't of course force you to. Your mod. Your decision.

 

And finally, I -do- pause all DCL events while the character is arrested in PO. That's not the problem. The problem is when someone wipes other people's quest items when they shouldn't, and thus trigger code that's not supposed to be triggered at this moment. The CD Master's set works because it's a different type of quest. That set doesn't trigger code in the OnRemoveItem() event in DDI, because that type of quest doesn't have to. It's not a bondage escape quest that would need to track unequip events, that's why. And that's why it's NOT ok to even temporarily remove quest items, because you don't know what type of quest you're dealing with. As soon as these items make use of OnRemoveItem() events, you're going to break stuff left and right.

Thing is that DDI is actually designed to deal with mods that just unequip stuff like that. It can catch RemoveAllItem() calls by other mods as well as detect mods unaware of DDI trying to unequip DD items (that's part of the reason why there are Inventory and Rendered items, in case you ever wondered). We certainly don't expect every other Skyrim mod to adhere to DDI framework conventions. That would be silly. The difference between a random other mod obliviously trying to wipe restraints from a player and your approach is that you are explicitly using DDI to break DDI, and we didn't really expect a DDI mod not to respect framework conventions. Which is the core of the issue here. If we have to expect DD mods to regularly behave like yours does, it basically makes the OnRemoveItem() event totally obsolete, because there is no way to tell if it got triggered because it should, or because another mod wiped the items off because it felt like it. In short, it changes the design paradigm for DD quests to the degree that some quests now easily supported by DDI become much harder or even impossible to implement. The difference between a random incompatibility and what you are doing is that you are using the DD framework in a way that unilaterally changes the way it can be used by making part of its mechanics obsolete, not only for you, but for everyone making DD mods.

 

Anyway, I still acknowledge that I can't force you to respect these framework conventions. It's a decision you have to make. It's your mod. I will not bug you about it any more.

[spoonsinger]

Re: "through the gag. No, it's not hyper realistic, but it solves the issue and satisfies RND"

 

Pig bladder tubing, stuck up the gagged persons nose. Then nutritious and hearty, warming soup passed down it.

[Slorm]

I've used RND for years without problems. I do have the death option turned off but it's pretty easy to toggle for someone that has it on and actually really spends 10 game days in prison.

 

But as I said earlier just use the petty crime routine or suspend the animations for the sentence if the pc wears an incompatible item. I've only been in jail with DCL collars fitted so there were no problems with those at all but for the DCL items it would seem to be a workable compromise.

 

I'm sorry I even mentioned it now as it was not my intent to cause any ill will between Inte and Kimy

[Punga]

 

Ok,

• Food consumption is needed as per real needs mods, as in they will kill the PC if food is not available for say 10 days.
• Yes, 4, 8 - should be fixed in DDi anyway, no?
• As per No. 2 ... wait, DCL cuffs can be removed and replaced with any DD restraints, but not with a ZaZ one? Why?
• The 1, 3, 7, 5 - there can't be an alternative to the pillory punishment as all furniture poses I know of include ZaZ furniture, unless you know something I don't? Even if I was to change the pillory to say the X, rack or even just chains - the same problems would exist. I do not like furniture-less 'frozen' poses.
• If by conventional you mean for the PC to just sit there 'magically frozen' and take a good whipping, then no - I do not find that to be very immersive.

It seems to me it would be much easier to pause DCL effects for the duration of the arrest. All items are re-equipped after anyways.

You know just add this to your conditions,

(StorageUtil.GetIntValue(PlayerRef, "xpoPCArrested") == 1)

It might be apples to oranges, but I can remove and equip CD items day long with no side effects.

 

Now with all that being said, you are correct quest items of other mods should not be permanently removed, but temporary - should be OK.

1. It's again nothing that doesn't occasionally occur with general use of DD. At least it's absolutely not a problem between DD and PO. If anything it's a problem between DD and RND. Myself, I have been using RND for ages together with DD, and yes, every now and then it would have killed me, admitted. Tbh, I used to just switch it off until I get rid of the gag then. These days I have added a feature to DCL to allow you to ask for food, so NPCs can feed you. Yes, through the gag. No, it's not hyper realistic, but it solves the issue and satisfies RND.

 

2. It's not yet in, because it's not a general issue. This is an actual incompatibility between DD and PO that would require a fix specific to it. As I said, I can add it.

 

3. I didn't say remove the arm cuffs, I meant adding a DD wrist restraint when the arm cuffs slot is occupied by a DD item, so that the proper bound animation will play. This can occur only in situations when arm cuffs are worn, but wrist restraints (armbinder, yoke) are not, mind you. So you can just equip something in the free slot.

 

4. I didn't mean using another furniture pose, I mean using NO furniture pose. The code I had in mind for the scene is an NPC (in your case the jailer) whipping the player while she's just standing. Both DCL and Sex Slaves have such scenes. I wrote mine -specifically- for situations when the player is already bound and thus can't be suspended etc.

 

5. Well, ok, that's the real issue. Actually this means I wouldn't have had to write anything about 1-4, but I suppose I wanted to be constructive and show that's quite possible to make PO fully compatible with DD. I can't of course force you to. Your mod. Your decision.

 

And finally, I -do- pause all DCL events while the character is arrested in PO. That's not the problem. The problem is when someone wipes other people's quest items when they shouldn't, and thus trigger code that's not supposed to be triggered at this moment. The CD Master's set works because it's a different type of quest. That set doesn't trigger code in the OnRemoveItem() event in DDI, because that type of quest doesn't have to. It's not a bondage escape quest that would need to track unequip events, that's why. And that's why it's NOT ok to even temporarily remove quest items, because you don't know what type of quest you're dealing with. As soon as these items make use of OnRemoveItem() events, you're going to break stuff left and right.

Thing is that DDI is actually designed to deal with mods that just unequip stuff like that. It can catch RemoveAllItem() calls by other mods as well as detect mods unaware of DDI trying to unequip DD items (that's part of the reason why there are Inventory and Rendered items, in case you ever wondered). We certainly don't expect every other Skyrim mod to adhere to DDI framework conventions. That would be silly. The difference between a random other mod obliviously trying to wipe restraints from a player and your approach is that you are explicitly using DDI to break DDI, and we didn't really expect a DDI mod not to respect framework conventions. Which is the core of the issue here. If we have to expect DD mods to regularly behave like yours does, it basically makes the OnRemoveItem() event totally obsolete, because there is no way to tell if it got triggered because it should, or because another mod wiped the items off because it felt like it. In short, it changes the design paradigm for DD quests to the degree that some quests now easily supported by DDI become much harder or even impossible to implement. The difference between a random incompatibility and what you are doing is that you are using the DD framework in a way that unilaterally changes the way it can be used by making part of its mechanics obsolete, not only for you, but for everyone making DD mods.

 

Anyway, I still acknowledge that I can't force you to respect these framework conventions. It's a decision you have to make. It's your mod. I will not bug you about it any more.

WoW, you make it sound like Inte's mod here is the evilest mod ever conceived, removing devices willy nelly on a whim, when that is simply just not the case.

Actually POP does not remove ANY locked devious devices unless I want it to. Believe it or not, POP has a shit load of menu options to customize my playthrough as much or as little as I want.

[WaxenFigure]

Mods that remove quest items can break quests, quest items that block mod activities can break mods.

 

Sounds like a chicken or the egg type problem here.

 

To be honest, I'm glad to see some earnest discussion about the problem. Please don't let it get personal, that will do no one any good.

[aspirine2]

is there a way to pass the punishment time somthing like pressing the T key ..i can't figure the slow time and fast time options at the mcm ..since i played with their values game keep crashing up at the pillory scene beside the scene takes too long and it's kind boring ..is there a solution for that ??

GUYS ?? any help

[Inte]

 

 

 

 

Ok,

• Food consumption is needed as per real needs mods, as in they will kill the PC if food is not available for say 10 days.  
• Yes, 4, 8 - should be fixed in DDi anyway, no?  
• As per No. 2 ... wait, DCL cuffs can be removed and replaced with any DD restraints, but not with a ZaZ one? Why?
• The 1, 3, 7, 5 - there can't be an alternative to the pillory punishment as all furniture poses I know of include ZaZ furniture, unless you know something I don't? Even if I was to change the pillory to say the X, rack or even just chains - the same problems would exist. I do not like furniture-less 'frozen' poses.
• If by conventional you mean for the PC to just sit there 'magically frozen' and take a good whipping, then no - I do not find that to be very immersive.

It seems to me it would be much easier to pause DCL effects for the duration of the arrest. All items are re-equipped after anyways.

You know just add this to your conditions,

(StorageUtil.GetIntValue(PlayerRef, "xpoPCArrested") == 1)

It might be apples to oranges, but I can remove and equip CD items day long with no side effects.

 

Now with all that being said, you are correct quest items of other mods should not be permanently removed, but temporary - should be OK.

 

 

1. It's again nothing that doesn't occasionally occur with general use of DD. At least it's absolutely not a problem between DD and PO. If anything it's a problem between DD and RND. Myself, I have been using RND for ages together with DD, and yes, every now and then it would have killed me, admitted. Tbh, I used to just switch it off until I get rid of the gag then. These days I have added a feature to DCL to allow you to ask for food, so NPCs can feed you. Yes, through the gag. No, it's not hyper realistic, but it solves the issue and satisfies RND.

 

2. It's not yet in, because it's not a general issue. This is an actual incompatibility between DD and PO that would require a fix specific to it. As I said, I can add it.

 

3. I didn't say remove the arm cuffs, I meant adding a DD wrist restraint when the arm cuffs slot is occupied by a DD item, so that the proper bound animation will play. This can occur only in situations when arm cuffs are worn, but wrist restraints (armbinder, yoke) are not, mind you. So you can just equip something in the free slot.

 

4. I didn't mean using another furniture pose, I mean using NO furniture pose. The code I had in mind for the scene is an NPC (in your case the jailer) whipping the player while she's just standing. Both DCL and Sex Slaves have such scenes. I wrote mine -specifically- for situations when the player is already bound and thus can't be suspended etc.

 

5. Well, ok, that's the real issue. Actually this means I wouldn't have had to write anything about 1-4, but I suppose I wanted to be constructive and show that's quite possible to make PO fully compatible with DD. I can't of course force you to. Your mod. Your decision.

 

And finally, I -do- pause all DCL events while the character is arrested in PO. That's not the problem. The problem is when someone wipes other people's quest items when they shouldn't, and thus trigger code that's not supposed to be triggered at this moment. The CD Master's set works because it's a different type of quest. That set doesn't trigger code in the OnRemoveItem() event in DDI, because that type of quest doesn't have to. It's not a bondage escape quest that would need to track unequip events, that's why. And that's why it's NOT ok to even temporarily remove quest items, because you don't know what type of quest you're dealing with. As soon as these items make use of OnRemoveItem() events, you're going to break stuff left and right.

Thing is that DDI is actually designed to deal with mods that just unequip stuff like that. It can catch RemoveAllItem() calls by other mods as well as detect mods unaware of DDI trying to unequip DD items (that's part of the reason why there are Inventory and Rendered items, in case you ever wondered). We certainly don't expect every other Skyrim mod to adhere to DDI framework conventions. That would be silly. The difference between a random other mod obliviously trying to wipe restraints from a player and your approach is that you are explicitly using DDI to break DDI, and we didn't really expect a DDI mod not to respect framework conventions. Which is the core of the issue here. If we have to expect DD mods to regularly behave like yours does, it basically makes the OnRemoveItem() event totally obsolete, because there is no way to tell if it got triggered because it should, or because another mod wiped the items off because it felt like it. In short, it changes the design paradigm for DD quests to the degree that some quests now easily supported by DDI become much harder or even impossible to implement. The difference between a random incompatibility and what you are doing is that you are using the DD framework in a way that unilaterally changes the way it can be used by making part of its mechanics obsolete, not only for you, but for everyone making DD mods.

 

Anyway, I still acknowledge that I can't force you to respect these framework conventions. It's a decision you have to make. It's your mod. I will not bug you about it any more.

 

 

It's like banging my head against the wall, you keep twisting the facts to fit your argument.

• I am not removing your quest items, I give the players the OPTION to do so. Last time I checked players are still allowed to make their own decisions in how they are playing their own game. For you to dictate how players should play their own game is just silly.
• So it's OK for your devices to break POP, but it's not OK for POP to optionally remove them, brilliant! Now admittedly, neither of those outcomes is ideal so I've compromised and I left it up to the player, now you are saying that I am not even allowed to do that? Nazi much? 
• What are you talking about POP breaks ALL DD mods? As far as I know only your devices are this sensitive - that they do not allow even temporary removal before they will implode the game. I've played @Min's DD starting quest where Urag gro-Shub locks me in a belt, did a stint in the jail the belt was removed, then added back and Urag gro-Shub was none the wiser, all worked fine, so it did not break that mod. If you have a mod in mind, a mod that will be obliterated by POP temporary removing its DDs ... please, let me know so I can test it for myself. 
• Just to be clear POP is fully compatible with DD, just not your DCL.

It's because I try to adhere to the DD framework conventions that I give players options and don't dictate how they should play.

[Kimy]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok,

• Food consumption is needed as per real needs mods, as in they will kill the PC if food is not available for say 10 days.  
• Yes, 4, 8 - should be fixed in DDi anyway, no?  
• As per No. 2 ... wait, DCL cuffs can be removed and replaced with any DD restraints, but not with a ZaZ one? Why?
• The 1, 3, 7, 5 - there can't be an alternative to the pillory punishment as all furniture poses I know of include ZaZ furniture, unless you know something I don't? Even if I was to change the pillory to say the X, rack or even just chains - the same problems would exist. I do not like furniture-less 'frozen' poses.
• If by conventional you mean for the PC to just sit there 'magically frozen' and take a good whipping, then no - I do not find that to be very immersive.

It seems to me it would be much easier to pause DCL effects for the duration of the arrest. All items are re-equipped after anyways.

You know just add this to your conditions,

(StorageUtil.GetIntValue(PlayerRef, "xpoPCArrested") == 1)

It might be apples to oranges, but I can remove and equip CD items day long with no side effects.

 

Now with all that being said, you are correct quest items of other mods should not be permanently removed, but temporary - should be OK.

 

 

1. It's again nothing that doesn't occasionally occur with general use of DD. At least it's absolutely not a problem between DD and PO. If anything it's a problem between DD and RND. Myself, I have been using RND for ages together with DD, and yes, every now and then it would have killed me, admitted. Tbh, I used to just switch it off until I get rid of the gag then. These days I have added a feature to DCL to allow you to ask for food, so NPCs can feed you. Yes, through the gag. No, it's not hyper realistic, but it solves the issue and satisfies RND.

 

2. It's not yet in, because it's not a general issue. This is an actual incompatibility between DD and PO that would require a fix specific to it. As I said, I can add it.

 

3. I didn't say remove the arm cuffs, I meant adding a DD wrist restraint when the arm cuffs slot is occupied by a DD item, so that the proper bound animation will play. This can occur only in situations when arm cuffs are worn, but wrist restraints (armbinder, yoke) are not, mind you. So you can just equip something in the free slot.

 

4. I didn't mean using another furniture pose, I mean using NO furniture pose. The code I had in mind for the scene is an NPC (in your case the jailer) whipping the player while she's just standing. Both DCL and Sex Slaves have such scenes. I wrote mine -specifically- for situations when the player is already bound and thus can't be suspended etc.

 

5. Well, ok, that's the real issue. Actually this means I wouldn't have had to write anything about 1-4, but I suppose I wanted to be constructive and show that's quite possible to make PO fully compatible with DD. I can't of course force you to. Your mod. Your decision.

 

And finally, I -do- pause all DCL events while the character is arrested in PO. That's not the problem. The problem is when someone wipes other people's quest items when they shouldn't, and thus trigger code that's not supposed to be triggered at this moment. The CD Master's set works because it's a different type of quest. That set doesn't trigger code in the OnRemoveItem() event in DDI, because that type of quest doesn't have to. It's not a bondage escape quest that would need to track unequip events, that's why. And that's why it's NOT ok to even temporarily remove quest items, because you don't know what type of quest you're dealing with. As soon as these items make use of OnRemoveItem() events, you're going to break stuff left and right.

Thing is that DDI is actually designed to deal with mods that just unequip stuff like that. It can catch RemoveAllItem() calls by other mods as well as detect mods unaware of DDI trying to unequip DD items (that's part of the reason why there are Inventory and Rendered items, in case you ever wondered). We certainly don't expect every other Skyrim mod to adhere to DDI framework conventions. That would be silly. The difference between a random other mod obliviously trying to wipe restraints from a player and your approach is that you are explicitly using DDI to break DDI, and we didn't really expect a DDI mod not to respect framework conventions. Which is the core of the issue here. If we have to expect DD mods to regularly behave like yours does, it basically makes the OnRemoveItem() event totally obsolete, because there is no way to tell if it got triggered because it should, or because another mod wiped the items off because it felt like it. In short, it changes the design paradigm for DD quests to the degree that some quests now easily supported by DDI become much harder or even impossible to implement. The difference between a random incompatibility and what you are doing is that you are using the DD framework in a way that unilaterally changes the way it can be used by making part of its mechanics obsolete, not only for you, but for everyone making DD mods.

 

Anyway, I still acknowledge that I can't force you to respect these framework conventions. It's a decision you have to make. It's your mod. I will not bug you about it any more.

 

 

 

It's like banging my head against the wall, you keep twisting the facts to fit your argument.

• I am not removing your quest items, I give the players the OPTION to do so. Last time I checked players are still allowed to make their own decisions in how they are playing their own game. For you to dictate how players should play their own game is just silly.
• So it's OK for your devices to break POP, but it's not OK for POP to optionally remove them, brilliant! Now admittedly, neither of those outcomes is ideal so I've compromised and I left it up to the player, now you are saying that I am not even allowed to do that? Nazi much? 
• What are you talking about POP breaks ALL DD mods? As far as I know only your devices are this sensitive - that they do not allow even temporary removal before they will implode the game. I've played @Min's DD starting quest where Urag gro-Shub locks me in a belt, did a stint in the jail the belt was removed, then added back and Urag gro-Shub was none the wiser, all worked fine, so it did not break that mod. If you have a mod in mind, a mod that will be obliterated by POP temporary removing its DDs ... please, let me know so I can test it for myself. 
• Just to be clear POP is fully compatible with DD, just not your DCL.

It's because I try to adhere to the DD framework conventions that I give players options and don't dictate how they should play.

 

 

You don't break all DD mods, but you would break all that make use of the OnRemoveItem() event and rely on it being called when it should. That's not a DCL function, that's a DDI function. I have no clue how many mods other than mine make use of this mechanic, but even if I am the only one it doesn't change the fact that you're knowingly breaking a feature of DDI.

 

Next, I realize that my mod breaks all sorts of things by just being itself. I try to minimize these things to the best of my abilities, but sometimes it's just not possible. The difference between you and I is that I don't preemptively break other people's mods to prevent them from breaking mine, but that's exactly what you are doing. You know that DD and some things about how PO is implemented are not 100% compatible. That is correct. It always has been that way, and it was fine because DD and PO were not developed to be compatible. But your solution to fix said incompatibility isn't fixing it on your end, your solution is to break other people's stuff before it can break yours. I could obviously do the same - when a quest of mine that's not compatible with PO is running, I am pretty sure I could just snipe PO from my end and prevent it from doing anything so it can't break my quests. Is that how you think modders should work? Because that's essentially what you are doing.

 

And finally: "I am not breaking anything, I just give people the option to (and enable it by default)"... that's priceless, really.

 

Anyway, it's quite obvious that we will not reach an accord on this. As I said above, I am done trying to convince you to find a proper solution for this. I offered my help and that's all I can do.

[Punga]

Its good you guys are still hammering this out, I like seeing a firerly discution like yours, like Waxanfigure said.

By the way, what is &nbsp?

 

Keep it friendly, I am already popping some popcorn.

[Inte]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok,

• Food consumption is needed as per real needs mods, as in they will kill the PC if food is not available for say 10 days.  
• Yes, 4, 8 - should be fixed in DDi anyway, no?  
• As per No. 2 ... wait, DCL cuffs can be removed and replaced with any DD restraints, but not with a ZaZ one? Why?
• The 1, 3, 7, 5 - there can't be an alternative to the pillory punishment as all furniture poses I know of include ZaZ furniture, unless you know something I don't? Even if I was to change the pillory to say the X, rack or even just chains - the same problems would exist. I do not like furniture-less 'frozen' poses.
• If by conventional you mean for the PC to just sit there 'magically frozen' and take a good whipping, then no - I do not find that to be very immersive.

It seems to me it would be much easier to pause DCL effects for the duration of the arrest. All items are re-equipped after anyways.

You know just add this to your conditions,

(StorageUtil.GetIntValue(PlayerRef, "xpoPCArrested") == 1)

It might be apples to oranges, but I can remove and equip CD items day long with no side effects.

 

Now with all that being said, you are correct quest items of other mods should not be permanently removed, but temporary - should be OK.

 

 

 

1. It's again nothing that doesn't occasionally occur with general use of DD. At least it's absolutely not a problem between DD and PO. If anything it's a problem between DD and RND. Myself, I have been using RND for ages together with DD, and yes, every now and then it would have killed me, admitted. Tbh, I used to just switch it off until I get rid of the gag then. These days I have added a feature to DCL to allow you to ask for food, so NPCs can feed you. Yes, through the gag. No, it's not hyper realistic, but it solves the issue and satisfies RND.

 

2. It's not yet in, because it's not a general issue. This is an actual incompatibility between DD and PO that would require a fix specific to it. As I said, I can add it.

 

3. I didn't say remove the arm cuffs, I meant adding a DD wrist restraint when the arm cuffs slot is occupied by a DD item, so that the proper bound animation will play. This can occur only in situations when arm cuffs are worn, but wrist restraints (armbinder, yoke) are not, mind you. So you can just equip something in the free slot.

 

4. I didn't mean using another furniture pose, I mean using NO furniture pose. The code I had in mind for the scene is an NPC (in your case the jailer) whipping the player while she's just standing. Both DCL and Sex Slaves have such scenes. I wrote mine -specifically- for situations when the player is already bound and thus can't be suspended etc.

 

5. Well, ok, that's the real issue. Actually this means I wouldn't have had to write anything about 1-4, but I suppose I wanted to be constructive and show that's quite possible to make PO fully compatible with DD. I can't of course force you to. Your mod. Your decision.

 

And finally, I -do- pause all DCL events while the character is arrested in PO. That's not the problem. The problem is when someone wipes other people's quest items when they shouldn't, and thus trigger code that's not supposed to be triggered at this moment. The CD Master's set works because it's a different type of quest. That set doesn't trigger code in the OnRemoveItem() event in DDI, because that type of quest doesn't have to. It's not a bondage escape quest that would need to track unequip events, that's why. And that's why it's NOT ok to even temporarily remove quest items, because you don't know what type of quest you're dealing with. As soon as these items make use of OnRemoveItem() events, you're going to break stuff left and right.

Thing is that DDI is actually designed to deal with mods that just unequip stuff like that. It can catch RemoveAllItem() calls by other mods as well as detect mods unaware of DDI trying to unequip DD items (that's part of the reason why there are Inventory and Rendered items, in case you ever wondered). We certainly don't expect every other Skyrim mod to adhere to DDI framework conventions. That would be silly. The difference between a random other mod obliviously trying to wipe restraints from a player and your approach is that you are explicitly using DDI to break DDI, and we didn't really expect a DDI mod not to respect framework conventions. Which is the core of the issue here. If we have to expect DD mods to regularly behave like yours does, it basically makes the OnRemoveItem() event totally obsolete, because there is no way to tell if it got triggered because it should, or because another mod wiped the items off because it felt like it. In short, it changes the design paradigm for DD quests to the degree that some quests now easily supported by DDI become much harder or even impossible to implement. The difference between a random incompatibility and what you are doing is that you are using the DD framework in a way that unilaterally changes the way it can be used by making part of its mechanics obsolete, not only for you, but for everyone making DD mods.

 

Anyway, I still acknowledge that I can't force you to respect these framework conventions. It's a decision you have to make. It's your mod. I will not bug you about it any more.

 

 

 

 

It's like banging my head against the wall, you keep twisting the facts to fit your argument.

• I am not removing your quest items, I give the players the OPTION to do so. Last time I checked players are still allowed to make their own decisions in how they are playing their own game. For you to dictate how players should play their own game is just silly.
• So it's OK for your devices to break POP, but it's not OK for POP to optionally remove them, brilliant! Now admittedly, neither of those outcomes is ideal so I've compromised and I left it up to the player, now you are saying that I am not even allowed to do that? Nazi much? 
• What are you talking about POP breaks ALL DD mods? As far as I know only your devices are this sensitive - that they do not allow even temporary removal before they will implode the game. I've played @Min's DD starting quest where Urag gro-Shub locks me in a belt, did a stint in the jail the belt was removed, then added back and Urag gro-Shub was none the wiser, all worked fine, so it did not break that mod. If you have a mod in mind, a mod that will be obliterated by POP temporary removing its DDs ... please, let me know so I can test it for myself. 
• Just to be clear POP is fully compatible with DD, just not your DCL.

It's because I try to adhere to the DD framework conventions that I give players options and don't dictate how they should play.

 

 

 

You don't break all DD mods, but you would break all that make use of the OnRemoveItem() event and rely on it being called when it should. That's not a DCL function, that's a DDI function. I have no clue how many mods other than mine make use of this mechanic, but even if I am the only one it doesn't change the fact that you're knowingly breaking a feature of DDI.

 

Next, I realize that my mod breaks all sorts of things by just being itself. I try to minimize these things to the best of my abilities, but sometimes it's just not possible. The difference between you and I is that I don't preemptively break other people's mods to prevent them from breaking mine, but that's exactly what you are doing. You know that DD and some things about how PO is implemented are not 100% compatible. That is correct. It always has been that way, and it was fine because DD and PO were not developed to be compatible. But your solution to fix said incompatibility isn't fixing it on your end, your solution is to break other people's stuff before it can break yours. I could obviously do the same - when a quest of mine that's not compatible with PO is running, I am pretty sure I could just snipe PO from my end and prevent it from doing anything so it can't break my quests. Is that how you think modders should work? Because that's essentially what you are doing.

 

And finally: "I am not breaking anything, I just give people the option to (and enable it by default)"... that's priceless, really.

 

Anyway, it's quite obvious that we will not reach an accord on this. As I said above, I am done trying to convince you to find a proper solution for this. I offered my help and that's all I can do.

 

... and round and round we go!

• That option was not my solution, it was a compromise - there is a difference.
• Since you ask all mods to change their code to make them ‘compatible’ with yours, I would say your mod is the one that needs a code revision.

You want a solution, here is mine.

 

How about you provide a ModEvent all other mods (including POP) can use to remove your devices the proper way, something like so:

Event DcurOnRemoveQuestDDs(STRING eventName = "DcurRemoveQuestDDs", STRING sCallingMod = "NoName Mod", FLOAT fRemove = 1.0, Form eSender)
;Whatever functions you need to remove/equip your devices and store them in a StorageUtil form list.  
EndEvent

Here

• sCallingMod - the name of the mod that requested the devices removal, so you can show it in the MCM (optional).
• fRemove = 1 will remove the devices.
• fRemove = 0 will add them back.

For example before the arrest I can call something like,

 PlayerRef.SendModEvent("DcurRemoveQuestDDs", “POP”, 1.0) 

This will remove all your DCL devices the proper way and terminate all relevant quests.

 

Then on release I can call (I promise, I will) something like

 PlayerRef.SendModEvent("DcurRemoveQuestDDs", “POP”, 0.0) 

This will add back all removed devices and start all relevant quests.

 

The beauty of this is that this will make DCL compatible with all mods that need to temporary remove your oh so sensitive items.

[Kimy]

Inte logic:

Problem: My mod has an incompatibility issue with another mod. Inte Solution: Break the other mod before it can break yours!

Problem Part 2: The author of the other mod objects to using the other mod's own code to break the other mod. Inte Solution: Tell the author of the other mod to rewrite their mod, so it doesn't cause incompatibility issues with yours anymore!

 

 

Seriously, I bow in awe. Life must be so much easier when you don't have to care about others.

 

 

You do realize that what you just asked me amounts to "Terminate your quests and get out of my mod's way, because my stuff is more important than yours!", yes? If I could pause my quests all that easily I'd have offered this solution already. I can't. I can terminate them. I can start them from scratch. But I have no mechanics in place to remember their state at an arbitrary position, as I honestly didn't think that another mod would ever go ahead and intentionally break them halfway through. Among things because DDI conventions say "don't touch other mods' quest items". I admit I was gullible enough to think people would actually respect that. I should have known better.

[shane4244]

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this I do enjoy cursed loot and some of the other DD mods but what is wrong with allowing other mods to have the ability to terminate the quest? If your concerned with lore it is reasonable that your captives may remove restraints in order to use restraints more suited to what they want to do with you. It's not like your not going to be put back in restraints again to restart the DD quest. (depending on settings this happens easily)

 

It would be nice to use DD and enjoy features from other mods at the same time but because of how intrusive DD is it seems to interfere with the original intent of mods other than this one (Play all DD or nothing). When PO kicks in I want to play PO and give DD a break.

 

I enjoy both DD content and this mod plus others but you may be a little backwards in saying "Inte Solution: Tell the author of the other mod to rewrite their mod, so it doesn't cause incompatibility issues with yours anymore!" DD mods are way more intrusive than any other mods I can think of.

 

Again I'm not trying to get in the middle of the argument here just giving an opinion of a user of both mods.

[Inte]

Inte logic:

Problem: My mod has an incompatibility issue with another mod. Inte Solution: Break the other mod before it can break yours!

Problem Part 2: The author of the other mod objects to using the other mod's own code to break the other mod. Inte Solution: Tell the author of the other mod to rewrite their mod, so it doesn't cause incompatibility issues with yours anymore!

 

 

Seriously, I bow in awe. Life must be so much easier when you don't have to care about others.

 

 

You do realize that what you just asked me amounts to "Terminate your quests and get out of my mod's way, because my stuff is more important than yours!", yes? If I could pause my quests all that easily I'd have offered this solution already. I can't. I can terminate them. I can start them from scratch. But I have no mechanics in place to remember their state at an arbitrary position, as I honestly didn't think that another mod would ever go ahead and intentionally break them halfway through. Among things because DDI conventions say "don't touch other mods' quest items". I admit I was gullible enough to think people would actually respect that. I should have known better.

@Kimy's hypocritical logic.

 

1. Even though you break all the mods you touch with DCL, you ask the other mods to make themselves compatible with DCL and fix the DCL's compatibility problems, truly astonishing. Also when called on this fact, just twist what has just been said to support your hypocritical logic by sounding like a broken record ... break the other mod before it can break yours... break the other mod before .... whatever ... . You obviously can't see the hypocrisy in your own statements.  

 

2. I offer you a working solution, you disregard and ignore the solution and proceed to insult me for offering it, nice!

I suppose that's how mod authors are supposed to work together. Also, I never said my stuff is more important than yours (again you pull stuff out of your ass just to support your argument).

 

I offer you a working solution since the one you offered me will not work and will still break other mods as well as mine. But no ... all mods have to accommodate yours, while you keep repeating the same dogma "don't touch other mods' quest items". Are you so stiff that you can't even see that sometimes there just is no way around that? In order for the game to flow and to be immersive and most importantly fun, sometimes you have to deviate from it a bit. Otherwise, everything will come crashing down. Besides, if you implement my solution that 'dogma' will be upheld, since you'll be removing your own devices.

 

My solution will make all these mods compatible and work with DCL like they should. So, you have to terminate your quests and then start them from scratch - so what? Why is that such a deal breaker for you? I am sure the player will understand that has to happen, since the items were re-equipped again after being temporary removed, and the quest will have to start anew. Actually that will be quite immersing and it simply makes sense.  Don't you have a safe word in DCL? Just think of it as that.

 

After I offer you all this where I try to bring all the mods to work together, you proceed to insult me and say that I do not care about others? But you do? I have no words for what you are ... and yet, here you are.  

 

 

[Kimy]

@Kimy's hypocritical logic.

 

1. Even though you break all the mods you touch with DCL,

 

 

So far, I have never, ever broken a mod or terminated another mod's stuff -intentionally-.That's in the end the difference between you and me. And let's just end this debate before it gets really nasty. I am done talking to you.

 

[Inte]

 

@Kimy's hypocritical logic.

 

1. Even though you break all the mods you touch with DCL,

 

 

So far, I have never, ever broken a mod or terminated another mod's stuff -intentionally-.That's in the end the difference between you and me. And let's just end this debate before it gets really nasty. I am done talking to you.

 

 

 

See what I mean? How is any mod supposed to proceed when the player is bound like a pretzel? No dialog, no animations, etc.. Like I said, sidestepping the issue and hypocrisy at its finest.

 

Whatever!

 

[hammocktroll]

Hi I have a suggestion:

 

It would be nice to have a MCM option for the amount of food you get in the cells. I would like to get punished more often in the cell without having like 20 tomatosoups. So for example you set it to 3 and get 3 tomatosoups every day wenn you first get send to the cell. Or after 3 punishments you wont get more tomatosoups untill the next punishment on the next day.

[aspirine2]

 

is there a way to pass the punishment time somthing like pressing the T key ..i can't figure the slow time and fast time options at the mcm ..since i played with their values game keep crashing up at the pillory scene beside the scene takes too long and it's kind boring ..is there a solution for that ??

GUYS ?? any help

 

i think i fixed this with loading an older save.

[aspirine2]

well it's kind of strange ..can't sleep inside cell or wait ..keeps telling me you can't sleep while taking health damage.. and the same while pressing the waiting key ??

[krighaur]

well it's kind of strange ..can't sleep inside cell or wait ..keeps telling me you can't sleep while taking health damage.. and the same while pressing the waiting key ??

 

Have you disabled hardcore mode in POP MCM menu? By default it is on (hardcore enabled) and disallow waiting.

 

[Kelinari]

Um sorry to ask you seem kinda busy with Kimy, but did the log help? If not I'll try work out a way to get one that might ^^'