Brigade Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Can we get this shit off the forums? Nobody in the real world cares about any of this, nobody in the modding world cares about this. The only place where people care about this is in the little psychoshit world these two sides have built for themselves to play in. Trying to drag LL into this game of theirs is just going to piss people off enough for them to leave, and bring in people we really don't want here.
Kendo 2 Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 well yes, but that also means if there's any issue that some would want to coverup or get people to stop talking about it, all that needs to be done is to cloud both side of the discussion with senseless bs and people will eventually ignore it altogether. Sounds a bit too...convenient But none of this is a real issue. Zoe may or may not have cheated on her boyfriend with some other game dude. Okay, so what? Wanna hash that shit out? Take it to Dr.Phil because no one really cares who is fucking who and the boyfriend doing an on-line slam to 'get even' is just fucking lame. And that werewolf Anita and her crusade against video games is a running joke at this point. Everything out of her mouth is a basically a lie and she has zero credibility. Let it be muddled and senseless, since it was that way from the start. We're not talking about government black ops, secret political agendas or illegal arms deals. We're talking about internet douches going at one another behind skewed ideologies. I don't see a 'bigger picture' in what they're all bitching about. All I see is a bunch of liberal dumb asses tearing at one others' throats over petty personal issues and obvious SJW agendas. Let them do it, and make fun of them while they do it.
afa Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 So...the first thing that comes into people's mind about this is the cheating/relationship and the whole harassment debacle rather than questioning the legitimacy and accusation of corruption/favoritism within the games and games journalism industry. Interesting I guess. Or perhaps even if it is about the industry people still think it isn't a "big enough" deal to care about it.
Myst42 Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 The whole GG thing has been just a massive crap pile of TLDR to me The way I see it from what little I could understand is -People can be corrupt and form mafias in game industry. That's wrong, but it happens everywhere. It's OK to expose corruption but I see it like something near impossible to end. Not in this lifetime anyway. The fight must keep going though -True feminists are (or used to be) women trying to make their place in the world, just like the next guy -Misandrists, call themselves "feminists" but the only thing they do is hate men and make ridiculous excuses to justify their hatred -Misogynist men, are easily trolled by these creatures and response by hating women, which is equally retarded in my opinion -Corrupt people take advantage of this trolling mechanism to divert attention from their own filth -Gamers like fantasy, dudes gonna like shmecsy female characters in skimpy clothing, gals gonna like attractive alpha type male figures probably, give or take a hotness ingredient. Anyone who thinks they can blame a gender for liking shmecsy is the most retarded moron on earth. It has NOTHING to do with hating the other gender and nothing to do with corruption. -The whole GG thing is retarded, or at the very least, it became retarded after it became a stupid "debate", if you can call it that, about gender hate, it's just endless trolling and I see no reason to get involved
DMCDante Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 I dunno if I am the only one but why are some people so mad at various insults even death threats over the internet? What do the people being insulted expect from a platform where everyone is anonymous. I have been insulted based on my looks, likes, beliefs and whatnot in real life, yet I've always just shrugged it off and ignored it. These days some idiots spew bullshit to others and people come running with lawsuits and claims of "psychological" trauma, give me a break. Regarding Anita, I can't believe anyone honestly believe the crap she spews, oh wait, enough idiots believed and donated so she raised over 200k dollars lol. What's even funnier to me, she is victimizing herself and making a big deal out of said threats and insults, kinda of like waiting to be saved like a damsel in distress she dislikes so much lol. I just wished this had more to do with the fact that gaming journalists are mostly full of shit these days.
Rayblue Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 I don't belong to either side. I just got sick of this thing spiraling out of control, to the point the damned thing looked as it was more serious than real threats to humanity.
ToxicKetchup Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 As with most forms of extremism, my take on it is thus - "Quick! Journalistic integrity is at risk - to the death/rape threats!" - you have your priorities mixed up. As I've said time and time again, those people making threats don't speak for us. We abhore and condemn that kind of behavior. And how have you been showing that? I've yet to hear of a counter movement to that which made the threats. We've been pretty on-top of that shit, actually, swarming to get harassing and doxxing twitter accounts reported and taken down. I can't say the other side is doing the same, though. They seem to be preoccupied with spreading the lie that we're horrible misogynists despite a large number of us being women. Oh, and anti-GG also doxxed a trans girl and a 12-year old with asperger's but that's totally not relevant. They don't seem to care who's harassed as long as it's not them.
Dr. Thang Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 They seem to be preoccupied with spreading the lie that we're horrible misogynists despite a large number of us being women. Yeah, shit like that has been getting super annoying. I didn't like the gamergate douchebros any more than any other decent human being would, but what a lot of pretentious hipsters have been shouting down from up on their high horses over this whole issue is that gamers are all woman-hating basement-dwelling parasites. Not specifically the 4chan turds or whoever started this shit, just gamers in general. That's like saying everyone who watches movies is an asshole. Video games don't appeal to a specific type of person, it's just a form of media like music or TV. Calling "gamers" anything is slightly more ridiculous than stereotyping any race, country, religion, or even gender, because all of those are more likely to have more things in common than "gamers", who make up people of all ages and nationalities. So basically, people who bitch about gamers sound as insufferable and transparent to me as the people who never miss an opportunity to announce that they don't own a TV, they just want to feel superior to everyone, and it's pretty pathetic.
ToxicKetchup Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 They seem to be preoccupied with spreading the lie that we're horrible misogynists despite a large number of us being women. Yeah, shit like that has been getting super annoying. I didn't like the gamergate douchebros any more than any other decent human being would, but what a lot of pretentious hipsters have been shouting down from up on their high horses over this whole issue is that gamers are all woman-hating basement-dwelling parasites. Not specifically the 4chan turds or whoever started this shit, just gamers in general. That's like saying everyone who watches movies is an asshole. Video games don't appeal to a specific type of person, it's just a form of media like music or TV. Calling "gamers" anything is slightly more ridiculous than stereotyping any race, country, religion, or even gender, because all of those are more likely to have more things in common than "gamers", who make up people of all ages and nationalities. So basically, people who bitch about gamers sound as insufferable and transparent to me as the people who never miss an opportunity to announce that they don't own a TV, they just want to feel superior to everyone, and it's pretty pathetic. A new msnbc interview piece just surfaced and I raged hard. I can't believe msnbc's giving these pseudo-intellectual hipsters a platform to spread their bullshit. None of the stuff they're saying is even remotely true. They're just talking heads at this point. And of course they don't even bother bringing somebody from the opposing side on, because they know their verbal diarrhea can't hold up under scrutiny. Leigh Alexander, didn't she threaten someone? A death threat, IIRC? Why would you let someone like that on your station? Msnbc's just destroying their reputation. I actually feel bad for them.
blueballbob Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 As a gamer the whole thing seems like some game 'journalists' (lol) are jerking themselves off in a mirror and telling everyone else how important they are. Getting really sick of the topic frankly. Not really sure what it has to do with gaming at all. Personally I'm glad more women are playing games. It think that'll change things a lot more than stamping your feet and telling everyone your offended. . . .
LordJerle Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Fine example of my earlier point. http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=spiderwomans_ass Commentary on controversy over a comic book cover, but still entirely relevant.
backthere Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 You know it says an awful lot about a social issue when those of us that spend our time here, can have a more civil and meaningful conversation on a subject that we could ostensibly be accused of enabling, than the people that are arguing about it anywhere else. The fact that misogyny and misandry have been brought to the forefront of the discussion to obscure the facts of journalistic and ethical corruption is somewhat sad and frustrating. I mean if you really and truly thought that "real news" outlets like CNN or Fox or MSNBC or whatever were attempting to hide their own corruption by screaming about social issues at the top of their lungs and white knighting various talking head pundits to push that agenda....most of these news sources would end up under Congressional investigation. But since its just "vidya games"....who cares that the entire argument is being directed and controlled by the people that are attempting to downplay their own ethical failings when whats really important is to focus on how crazy gamers are and how male gamers are all psychotic rapist murderers just waiting for an opportunity to join ISIS and mutilate female genitalia in the name of Allah. This entire scenario is disgusting, and the fact that, we, the actual deviants in the equation, actually have a clearer and more substantive view of it than most other parts of the internet and mainstream media involving themselves in the discussion is, frankly, laughable.
Guest Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Can we get this shit off the forums? Nobody in the real world cares about any of this, nobody in the modding world cares about this. The only place where people care about this is in the little psychoshit world these two sides have built for themselves to play in. Trying to drag LL into this game of theirs is just going to piss people off enough for them to leave, and bring in people we really don't want here. Nobody's attempting to drag anybody into anything. It's just a discussion among adults, in the area intended for general discussion, on a topical subject for which some of us adults here might have a perspective. We deal in adult mods, mostly of a sexual nature. At least one side of the war have had us firmly in their iron sights, and the other are saying they're standing up for us. You seem a bit overly sensitive flower. Let's not turn it into a crisis just yet.
backthere Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Can we get this shit off the forums? Nobody in the real world cares about any of this, nobody in the modding world cares about this. The only place where people care about this is in the little psychoshit world these two sides have built for themselves to play in. Trying to drag LL into this game of theirs is just going to piss people off enough for them to leave, and bring in people we really don't want here. Nobody's attempting to drag anybody into anything. It's just a discussion among adults, in the area intended for general discussion, on a topical subject for which some of us adults here might have a perspective. We deal in adult mods, mostly of a sexual nature. At least one side of the war have had us firmly in their iron sights, and the other are saying they're standing up for us. You seem a bit overly sensitive flower. Let's not turn it into a crisis just yet. He does have a point though. We can have a fairly constructive and objective conversation amongst ourselves, but LL is search engine indexed and this thread could attract the attention of people that would gladly crucify this site to serve their own agendas.
Guest Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Can we get this shit off the forums? Nobody in the real world cares about any of this, nobody in the modding world cares about this. The only place where people care about this is in the little psychoshit world these two sides have built for themselves to play in. Trying to drag LL into this game of theirs is just going to piss people off enough for them to leave, and bring in people we really don't want here. Nobody's attempting to drag anybody into anything. It's just a discussion among adults, in the area intended for general discussion, on a topical subject for which some of us adults here might have a perspective. We deal in adult mods, mostly of a sexual nature. At least one side of the war have had us firmly in their iron sights, and the other are saying they're standing up for us. You seem a bit overly sensitive flower. Let's not turn it into a crisis just yet. He does have a point though. We can have a fairly constructive and objective conversation amongst ourselves, but LL is search engine indexed and this thread could attract the attention of people that would gladly crucify this site to serve their own agendas. Nah, not really. We've been pretty good at running sock puppets out of town in the past. We're a pretty tight-knit community here, not a lot gets past us. Oh, and do a search on Gamergate, see how many hits you get, then see where this site features in that very long list. Unless people are deliberately looking for a connection between it and this site, they're going to have to wade through just about every other specialist and MSM outlet before they get a sniff of this. Stop wishing the sky is going to fall. Have a little faith in the ability for adults to engage in discussion without resorting to sticks and stones.
Guest Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 I dunno if I am the only one but why are some people so mad at various insults even death threats over the internet? What do the people being insulted expect from a platform where everyone is anonymous. I have been insulted based on my looks, likes, beliefs and whatnot in real life, yet I've always just shrugged it off and ignored it. These days some idiots spew bullshit to others and people come running with lawsuits and claims of "psychological" trauma, give me a break. Regarding Anita, I can't believe anyone honestly believe the crap she spews, oh wait, enough idiots believed and donated so she raised over 200k dollars lol. What's even funnier to me, she is victimizing herself and making a big deal out of said threats and insults, kinda of like waiting to be saved like a damsel in distress she dislikes so much lol. I just wished this had more to do with the fact that gaming journalists are mostly full of shit these days. Well I think there's been a fair bit of obfuscation and all round muddying of the water on both sides. That's self-evident when you try to find a clear path through it all without treading in some shit. I also think that's bound to happen when the main weapons of choice are 4chan, Reddit and Twitter. But maybe that's just my age What some folks seem to think of as a coordinated movement of people, I see as a solid tangled mass of folk with often very individualised ideas about what the agenda really is,having ad hoc discussions about where the revolution is going to be next. Versus a cabal of useful idiots who have a very clearly laid out agenda and a mainstream platform to shout it from. We've all known for years that gaming journalism has been eating itself. First it was print that came under fire, then inevitably the net magazines have succumbed to the same diseases. But I see it is as just another facet of a much wider problem with mainstream media generally, people are losing faith in something that was once considered a sacred font of information by most average people. Now it's commonplace for people to question any sources of news that isn't off the beaten track. It's why so many vloggers have carved out territory for themselves. I think we feel we can trust them, that they're not taking kickbacks, or they're not being lobbied by anybody....until they get famous and start earning big bucks of course. And so it goes on.
backthere Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Can we get this shit off the forums? Nobody in the real world cares about any of this, nobody in the modding world cares about this. The only place where people care about this is in the little psychoshit world these two sides have built for themselves to play in. Trying to drag LL into this game of theirs is just going to piss people off enough for them to leave, and bring in people we really don't want here. Nobody's attempting to drag anybody into anything. It's just a discussion among adults, in the area intended for general discussion, on a topical subject for which some of us adults here might have a perspective. We deal in adult mods, mostly of a sexual nature. At least one side of the war have had us firmly in their iron sights, and the other are saying they're standing up for us. You seem a bit overly sensitive flower. Let's not turn it into a crisis just yet. He does have a point though. We can have a fairly constructive and objective conversation amongst ourselves, but LL is search engine indexed and this thread could attract the attention of people that would gladly crucify this site to serve their own agendas. Nah, not really. We've been pretty good at running sock puppets out of town in the past. We're a pretty tight-knit community here, not a lot gets past us. Oh, and do a search on Gamergate, see how many hits you get, then see where this site features in that very long list. Unless people are deliberately looking for a connection between it and this site, they're going to have to wade through just about every other specialist and MSM outlet before they get a sniff of this. Stop wishing the sky is going to fall. Have a little faith in the ability for adults to engage in discussion without resorting to sticks and stones. Thats not specifically what I'm saying. I have personal experience with social pressures forcing me to abandon this site, in the past, even before this whole smoke screen dressed up as a social crusade against misogyny/misandry to divert attention from questions of journalistic ethics even occurred. I had a well established community persona, I enjoyed the collaborative efforts of it and members of my family wanted me not associated with it due to how that could be publicly and politically construed, I had to request my previous account get fully wiped out of the system and only came back some months after based on a twitter registration that is masked through a dummy gmail account attributed to someone else entirely that is a friend, and understands the situation I'm stuck in. No one is wishing the sky is going to fall and I have no concerns with the ability of this community to discuss this internally with maturity seeing as maturity is what we do around here....my concerns are the thread will attract the attention of journalists looking to continue throwing gas on the fire and I don't want this site, or its rather quirky community subjected to the judgment of this kangaroo court going on in gaming media and social journalism right now.
Guest Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Let's leave it for our moderators to assess the risk if there is any, though personally I think you're way over-thinking this, and probably inadvertently providing cause for a discussion to be shut down purely on the basis of your personal fears. You have my sympathy, I'm sure that situation wasn't a good one to be in. But respectfully, your experience isn't ours to bear collectively. If we allow what happened to you personally to dictate the terms for the rest of us, well these forces you describe have already won. edit: and just because I'd rather we didn't leave this open to speculation, I've asked a mod to take a look at the topic
nutluck Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 It is somewhat similar to the pen and paper RPG games, best know of which is Dungeon and Dragons. I started playing that and other games long ago and many men didn't want women involved in their hobby. Or they automatically assumed she had some hidden agenda cause she couldn't possible want to play pretend. Which girls do a lot more than boys do growing up. Similar with video games. I have friends that won't revel their gender online for that reason. Or won't play competitive games because of getting harassed as soon as they speak on vent or the like. I watch female youtubers do lets play and while most comments are fine, there is a small fraction that attack them. Worse they get some very nasty PM's from people who don't have the balls to speak out publicly so send private messages to berate them. Lucky they are the minority and it is changing and getting better. But one of the things slowing it down are that tiny percentage of women that flirt with guys to manipulate them or screw with them. Or just do stuff for the attention good or bad and revel in it. Which promotes all the negative stereotypes that some men have about women in gaming. A example of this, is I was in a gaming group playing DnD and a girl joined. Her only goal was to sleep with all the guys and then turn them against each other and make them jealous of each other. It ripped the group apart and ended friendships, once goal was accomplished she moved on and never talked to anyone from the group again.
Guest Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 It is somewhat similar to the pen and paper RPG games, best know of which is Dungeon and Dragons. I started playing that and other games long ago and many men didn't want women involved in their hobby. Or they automatically assumed she had some hidden agenda cause she couldn't possible want to play pretend. Which girls do a lot more than boys do growing up. Similar with video games. I have friends that won't revel their gender online for that reason. Or won't play competitive games because of getting harassed as soon as they speak on vent or the like. I watch female youtubers do lets play and while most comments are fine, there is a small fraction that attack them. Worse they get some very nasty PM's from people who don't have the balls to speak out publicly so send private messages to berate them. Lucky they are the minority and it is changing and getting better. But one of the things slowing it down are that tiny percentage of women that flirt with guys to manipulate them or screw with them. Or just do stuff for the attention good or bad and revel in it. Which promotes all the negative stereotypes that some men have about women in gaming. A example of this, is I was in a gaming group playing DnD and a girl joined. Her only goal was to sleep with all the guys and then turn them against each other and make them jealous of each other. It ripped the group apart and ended friendships, once goal was accomplished she moved on and never talked to anyone from the group again. Not every female gamer is going to be a paragon of virtue, we have our fair share of jerks. Just as some blokes are afflicted with very rigid minds and tend to judge everybody else according to the last encounter they had that didn't go according to their plan. We've all had to deal with tossers like that, it's not just women who come across it. The onus isn't on female gamers to constantly behave like nuns, it's on you guys to challenge each other when you know in your gut that something's just not right. Thankfully that's been my experience more often than not, I've rarely come across anything worse than some misjudged horseplay.
nutluck Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Oh I agree that's why i said a tiny percentage. I have run into far more guys that cause problems than I have girls. Was only saying both exist and both are part of the problem.
nutluck Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 it's on you guys to challenge each other when you know in your gut that something's just not right. I disagree slightly with this statement. I think it is on everyone to call anyone out that is doing something inappropriate regardless of gender, ethnicity etc. People are people and should all be treated equally and held to the same standards.
pinky6225 Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 I think that's my big problem with movements like GG, they have no discernible organisational structure so they can't be held accountable for anything reprehensible that happens in their name, like dragging Anil Dash's name through the mud for no obvious reason other than he happened to be in the firing line during one of GG's co-ordinated Twitter campaigns against Gawker journos. GG isn't a company, an organisation, a political party or anything. At best it can be described as a movement. It's a conglomerate of people with a similar goal in mind. The fact that it doesn't have a leader or a group of people assuming command is its greatest strenght. Leader figures or organisations can be smeared, black mailed or co-opted. It only opens you up to more ad hominem attacks which this ordeal has had plenty of - on both sides. Furthermore, #GG isn't looking to replace the current powers that be. It has been very clear that it just wants more transparency and integrity; people can stay exactly where they are (mostly), but they must revise their journalism and work ethics. Before #GG was GG it was a small issue that could've been easily resolved. After the coordinated article wave of the 'Gamers are dead' it became very clear it was going to be an us-vs-them fight - resembling a war. As for people getting caught in the crossfire I'll be very blunt; casualties of war. As I mentioned in my previous post, these casualties have been on both sides of the argument. It's something that shouldn't happen, but it always does in conflicts. Both sides should acknowledge these faults - and they do to a certain extend. I've seen pro-GG being very strict amongst itself and calling people out when they're being retarded. Naturally there will always be trolls or idiots who just want to see the world burn. This is the Internet after all. I'm sure anti-GG follows the same ideas in self-policing. Thing is, this argument is just secondary or tertiary to what, at least pro-GG, see as the main issue. All this emphasis on misoginy, women in gaming, bullying, death threats and harassment, while problematic, all serve as a giant smoke screen for the initial issue of corruption in (games)journalism. I'm just extremely frustrated that the goalposts get shifted everytime pro-GG tries to bring this up. What is most frustrating to me is that there is hardly any debat among the more prolific people of both sides. Why don't Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, Brianna Wu, etc. go into a direct debat with Dr. Sommers, Milo Yiannopoulos, Internet Aristocrat, Sargon, etc. I know there are plenty of streams and radio shows that are completely willing (and have shown so in the past) to host a platform for this discussion, but it seems the anti-GG side doesn't want to. The only time Quinn got close to debating a pro-GGer the comparison was made, if people should be talking to ISIS (again comparing GG to ISIS). Thing is, people actually do that... So no leader, no organisation, no accountability That sounds very much like mob rule to me which we discourage in society I will admit i've not done a lot of research just a few googles but it seems neither side is actually clear on what they want which is never a good place to start from
windpl Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 That shit is not about girls, boys, or fuck whatever you can think off, it is about personal gain. And where is point of discussing that?
DoctaSax Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Let's leave it for our moderators to assess the risk if there is any, though personally I think you're way over-thinking this, and probably inadvertently providing cause for a discussion to be shut down purely on the basis of your personal fears. You have my sympathy, I'm sure that situation wasn't a good one to be in. But respectfully, your experience isn't ours to bear collectively. If we allow what happened to you personally to dictate the terms for the rest of us, well these forces you describe have already won. edit: and just because I'd rather we didn't leave this open to speculation, I've asked a mod to take a look at the topic You did. Topic's fine by me, as long as people don't tear each other's heads off or make blanket statements about certain groups of people that are likely to cause a flame war among the participants. That looks to be under control. I barely know what it's about - seems like everything is a 'gate' these days, and gaming journalism is a job now. Nice work if you can get it, eh. In any case, LL abides.
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