Starfield and Creation Engine 2

[fishburger67]

9 hours ago, t.ara said:

After what I saw today about this game I have to change my opinion-at first hand, because the trailers which have been created by third-party-persons did not show what is really happening inside of the game. In between I have a more closer orientation abut the content.

And secondary I feel how much TODD HOWARD is inside this project. He really loves SCIENCE FICTION and this concept of this game, he ´s again feeling like a child-may be he ´s a good actor, or it is from his heart, really. For him it is again a dream which is becoming true. So this I have to accept and to honor and so I deleted before-going comments of mine. I made a mistake. I can only wish bethesda all the best for that release.

Anyway can ´t I imagine to mod into such a game...but anyway is it a unique new concept of this genre, which will really catch lot of gamer ´s fantasy.

 

Maybe somebody can spend me the gamebryo-exporter for SKYRIM ????-Pleasee:-))) LOL

You must have seen the latest Todd Howard interview.   There is another video I saw recently which to me explained the Fallout 76 debacle.  Todd was interested completely in Starfield and pretty much abandoned the Austin team working on 76 and everyone there knew it.  He was focused on Starfield because that was and is his passion.

 

Because Creation Kit games are moddable to the extent they are (new NPCs, new quests, new game areas, etc),  a Creation Kit based game is never going to be as detailed and with such precise animations as a motion capture produced game is.   However, I personally am more than happy to trade the less than perfect fidelity for the modability.  There is no game that I know of where you can do so much as a mod creator.

 

I just hope they figure out how to dynamically upscale the the meshes and textures so it looks great on machines that can support it while still maintaining the modability.  I heard recently that the XBox One S is the target system to run on.  That's like at 5 year old system that couldn't perform as well as a mediocre PC of the day.

 

 

 

[fishburger67]

5 hours ago, HentaiGnome said:

Not sure if this particular video has been linked yet, but if not then this is a good watch.

 

 

I'm definitely excited for Starfield. I've learned my lesson since Oblivion many years ago: play this game on PC. I'd say 75% of any issues will be easily resolved since we can just tweak the .ini files. And then of course we get access to many more (and better) mods than consoles. And last but not least, the mods themselves will make the game better and enjoyable. It's not joke that even to this day Skyrim is still being played, and I'd even argue that interest has risen in the last few months thanks to some revolutionary mods. This is why I'm excited for Starfield and I'm not worried about it unlike the haters out there.

 

 

I have listened to tons of these "reviews" and this one is the best and most reasoned even though it is missing one important point.   .01 percent of the mod creators have the financial resources to do mocap.  Without procedurally generated facial animations, it would be impossible to mod in new NPCs and while not critical for most players, it is an important aspect after you have done multiple play throughs with the same follower.

[South8028]

7 hours ago, fishburger67 said:

You must have seen the latest Todd Howard interview.   There is another video I saw recently which to me explained the Fallout 76 debacle.  Todd was interested completely in Starfield and pretty much abandoned the Austin team working on 76 and everyone there knew it.  He was focused on Starfield because that was and is his passion.

 

Because Creation Kit games are moddable to the extent they are (new NPCs, new quests, new game areas, etc),  a Creation Kit based game is never going to be as detailed and with such precise animations as a motion capture produced game is.   However, I personally am more than happy to trade the less than perfect fidelity for the modability.  There is no game that I know of where you can do so much as a mod creator.

 

I just hope they figure out how to dynamically upscale the the meshes and textures so it looks great on machines that can support it while still maintaining the modability.  I heard recently that the XBox One S is the target system to run on.  That's like at 5 year old system that couldn't perform as well as a mediocre PC of the day.

 

 

 

bethesda doesn't make games in ck. ck is a tool for modders. Most likely, bethesda is using a virtual machine. It's CE itself with a ton of additional developer libraries. These libraries are simply disconnected from the game engine afterwards. Also, all bethesda havok animations are motion-captured. If thousands of havok animations are done by hand, bethesda animators will hang themselves.

[davisev5225]

1 hour ago, South8028 said:

bethesda doesn't make games in ck. ck is a tool for modders. Most likely, bethesda is using a virtual machine. It's CE itself with a ton of additional developer libraries. These libraries are simply disconnected from the game engine afterwards. Also, all bethesda havok animations are motion-captured. If thousands of havok animations are done by hand, bethesda animators will hang themselves.

 

Bethesda has gone on record as saying the Creation Kit is more or less the same tool they use in-house.  Yes, it can't do things like rig animations, create meshes/textures, etc., but once assets are created, the Creation Kit is how they're assembled and implemented into the game.

[South8028]

18 minutes ago, davisev5225 said:

 

Bethesda has gone on record as saying the Creation Kit is more or less the same tool they use in-house.  Yes, it can't do things like rig animations, create meshes/textures, etc., but once assets are created, the Creation Kit is how they're assembled and implemented into the game.

whatever they say, ck is not suitable for studio because it doesn't allow realtime editing. But CE itself allows this if you connect the right tools. Obviously, no one will wrap screws with a screwdriver if he has a cordless electric screwdriver in his hands. Bones, models, sounds, textures, etc. are third party resources. They have nothing to do with ck, or the CE virtual machine. Resources are made in various third-party applications and are simply assembled into one game, just like you connect your models, animations, materials, sounds in ck. Only in real time and game rendering.

[Wolfstorm321]

Bethesda does not use the CK to build the games. The CK is meant for the users. 

They build the game directly in the engine. There are certain things that are not available in the CK, like map icons for example. 

They also used procedural forests in Oblivion. Try procedural forests with the CS or the CK and you will have trees in square patterns. 

[fishburger67]

14 hours ago, South8028 said:

bethesda doesn't make games in ck. ck is a tool for modders. Most likely, bethesda is using a virtual machine. It's CE itself with a ton of additional developer libraries. These libraries are simply disconnected from the game engine afterwards. Also, all bethesda havok animations are motion-captured. If thousands of havok animations are done by hand, bethesda animators will hang themselves.

Most of the quests you do in the base game are CE built quest.  There are literally thousands of .psc files produced by Bethesda.  They do in fact eat their own dog food.  While the game engine. animations, textures and so on are not done in CK, it is easy to add them after you create them with another tool.

 

Also:

 

HAVOK IS MOST LIKELY GONE FOR STARFIELD.

 

Try this in Google

 

HAVOK in Starfield

 

 

[bnub345]

24 minutes ago, fishburger67 said:

Also:

 

HAVOK IS MOST LIKELY GONE FOR STARFIELD.

 

Try this in Google

 

HAVOK in Starfield

 

 

I'll believe that when the game ships without it. All of the rumors about the custom animation system lead back to some Beth employee who made a post about it that was quickly taken down... back in 2020. 

[South8028]

6 hours ago, fishburger67 said:

Most of the quests you do in the base game are CE built quest.  There are literally thousands of .psc files produced by Bethesda.  They do in fact eat their own dog food.  While the game engine. animations, textures and so on are not done in CK, it is easy to add them after you create them with another tool.

 

Also:

 

HAVOK IS MOST LIKELY GONE FOR STARFIELD.

 

Try this in Google

 

HAVOK in Starfield

 

 

will fallout. Only in space and more carefully made (not like fo4, which was blinded in 6 months). ) The engine will not differ significantly, and does not need drastic changes. havok along with gamebryo in bethesda games forever. Otherwise, it will no longer be ce, but there will be some kind of new engine, which in itself will cost many times more than the game.

[t.ara]

On 8/3/2022 at 3:35 PM, South8028 said:

bethesda doesn't make games in ck. ck is a tool for modders. Most likely, bethesda is using a virtual machine. It's CE itself with a ton of additional developer libraries. These libraries are simply disconnected from the game engine afterwards. Also, all bethesda havok animations are motion-captured. If thousands of havok animations are done by hand, bethesda animators will hang themselves.

And this I can also top once more with the fact that on bethesda development computers is not even running windows. Or they consume the content-tools from third-party-engineers, like the 3dsmax-nif-exporter is coming from. I even can not imagine that they make changes to the engine semselves...I guess they have their wishes-plan and then the stuff is being engineered somewhere in different countries. Same for PAPYRUS.

 

Animations which are humanoid have been made by MOCAP and also without windows o.s..

 

Animal animations are hand-crafted, very easy to see...

 

Creation Engine + HAVOK physics = no go / not possible to integrate serious...mostly the stuff causes nonsence-effects->bethesda only made some few movable parts like the sign-plates and the tree-moves (which don ´t have to do with havok)-arrows and balistic stuff and effect are fine-rest of ideas has been wasted...carriage has been not working ideal, so for best to let it stand still...travelblending...handcarts : dangerous to touch...pots-plates and other stuff-works with some funny effects...thanks to some try-and-error gamebryo-file-settings....but they needed to release the game....

HAT + Creation Engine is working -HAT would have made possible lot of more-but they needed to relese the game...

HAVOK-clothing-physics: too complex at all....why spending so much time on long-cloth-some skirt-bones can simmulate a physics...

 

CK is perfectly a tool for a single working place to integrate some stuff-maybe for smaller additional content and quests, and usable for some static-mesh creations, adding npcs and animals-it ´s access is quite professional and I think it has been used also by bethesda in some professional workflow in maybe a different version with more or less options, quite logical. Anyway do we see also development concerning the CK. and the different game-versions ....compare the first versions with newer ones. And so you can also use.....which I can ´t officially tell here....but it works:-)))

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by t.ara

[South8028]

1 hour ago, t.ara said:

And this I can also top once more with the fact that on bethesda development computers is not even running windows. Or they consume the content-tools from third-party-engineers, like the 3dsmax-nif-exporter is coming from. I even can not imagine that they make changes to the engine semselves...I guess they have their wishes-plan and then the stuff is being engineered somewhere in different countries. Same for PAPYRUS.

 

Animations which are humanoid have been made by MOCAP and also without windows o.s..

 

Animal animations are hand-crafted, very easy to see...

 

Creation Engine + HAVOK physics = no go / not possible to integrate serious...mostly the stuff causes nonsence-effects->bethesda only made some few movable parts like the sign-plates and the tree-moves (which don ´t have to do with havok)-arrows and balistic stuff and effect are fine-rest of ideas has been wasted...carriage has been not working ideal, so for best to let it stand still...travelblending...handcarts : dangerous to touch...pots-plates and other stuff-works with some funny effects...thanks to some try-and-error gamebryo-file-settings....but they needed to release the game....

HAT + Creation Engine is working -HAT would have made possible lot of more-but they needed to relese the game...

HAVOK-clothing-physics: too complex at all....why spending so much time on long-cloth-some skirt-bones can simmulate a physics...

 

CK is perfectly a tool for a single working place to integrate some stuff-maybe for smaller additional content and quests, and usable for some static-mesh creations, adding npcs and animals-it ´s access is quite professional and I think it has been used also by bethesda in some professional workflow in maybe a different version with more or less options, quite logical. Anyway do we see also development concerning the CK. and the different game-versions ....compare the first versions with newer ones. And so you can also use.....which I can ´t officially tell here....but it works:-)))

 

They do everything themselves. They have a staff of c++ programmers working on the engine in collaboration with nvidea, intel, microsoft, amd, etc. Animations are made by specialized departments and entire companies, and freelancing is perhaps partially used. For example, my friend works with several companies in US and Israel at once, both in game development and in film production. He does animation and special effects at Houdini. His animations are simply exported later in various formats and used in games and movie serials. He is not a full-time employee and receives money for specific work performed. Most likely, freelancing, hiring intellectual slaves, is widely used in game development.

[t.ara]

On 8/4/2022 at 5:33 PM, South8028 said:

They do everything themselves. They have a staff of c++ programmers working on the engine in collaboration with nvidea, intel, microsoft, amd, etc. Animations are made by specialized departments and entire companies, and freelancing is perhaps partially used. For example, my friend works with several companies in US and Israel at once, both in game development and in film production. He does animation and special effects at Houdini. His animations are simply exported later in various formats and used in games and movie serials. He is not a full-time employee and receives money for specific work performed. Most likely, freelancing, hiring intellectual slaves, is widely used in game development.

Very interesting:-)) Is a hard job to work steady in such sort of industry...mostly that ´no fairytale-job/work.

[South8028]

14 minutes ago, t.ara said:

Very interesting:-)) Is a hard job to work steady in such sort of industry...mostly that ´no fairytale-job/work.

He has been working for a long time. More than 10 years already. It's just that people in Eastern Europe are ten times cheaper (because the prices for everything are much lower). If a job in the USA, for example, is valued at $1,000, in Eastern Europe, Ukraine, Russia, it costs $100. Naturally, companies take advantage of this. There are many intermediaries in the US who specialize in this. As far as I understand, there are always a lot of orders, and people sort them out depending on the professionalism and equipment. Of course, we are mainly talking about film production, but game dev is also present.

[Wolfstorm321]

I decided to try RDR2, after the recommendations in this thread. I was very impressed by the visuals.

It is the most realistic game I have ever seem. The entire screenspace looks like a movie. A uninformed viewer cannot tell at first sight if the scene is from a game or a movie. And if you hold the V key, the character go to auto-run, showing the landscape in a cinematic way. It reminded me of those old Marlboro commercials. 

The game have a strong survivalist approach. I always hated survival games, because they are just bar management. But not this one, survival in this game looks natural and spontaneous. The game shows the character skinning the animals and opening them. I never saw this in any other game before, it was always menu and take item. 

The combat was good too, but since this is a game strongly focused in realism, characters move slowly. Personally I prefer faster games.

I scored many headshots in the first shooting, so it is not hard to aim the weapon. I did not notice any recoil in the weapons, so they reduced the realism in this area, else it would be like Arma. 

I did not notice any SJW agenda in the game. In fact, I think the game is pretty binary. I'm currently at the Valentine area. 

Bethesda should learn with Rockstar how to make good graphics. I only noticed chromatic aberration in cutting scenes, where the character is dizzy or dreaming.
No purple filter was detected in the screenspace. Contrast was pretty good and I did not need to use curves to fix it. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Wolfstorm321

[t.ara]

On 8/5/2022 at 6:01 PM, South8028 said:

He has been working for a long time. More than 10 years already. It's just that people in Eastern Europe are ten times cheaper (because the prices for everything are much lower). If a job in the USA, for example, is valued at $1,000, in Eastern Europe, Ukraine, Russia, it costs $100. Naturally, companies take advantage of this. There are many intermediaries in the US who specialize in this. As far as I understand, there are always a lot of orders, and people sort them out depending on the professionalism and equipment. Of course, we are mainly talking about film production, but game dev is also present.

illusion softwork-praha-merged later with more bigger teams...they made trains and working railways possible....(take2->rockstar)

[t.ara]

1 hour ago, Wolfstorm321 said:

I decided to try RDR2, after the recommendations in this thread. I was very impressed by the visuals.

It is the most realistic game I have ever seem. The entire screenspace looks like a movie. A uninformed viewer cannot tell at first sight if the scene is from a game or a movie. And if you hold the V key, the character go to auto-run, showing the landscape in a cinematic way. It reminded me of those old Marlboro commercials. 

The game have a strong survivalist approach. I always hated survival games, because they are just bar management. But not this one, survival in this game looks natural and spontaneous. The game shows the character skinning the animals and opening them. I never saw this in any other game before, it was always menu and take item. 

The combat was good too, but since this is a game strongly focused in realism, characters move slowly. Personally I prefer faster games.

I scored many headshots in the first shooting, so it is not hard to aim the weapon. I did not notice any recoil in the weapons, so they reduced the realism in this area, else it would be like Arma. 

I did not notice any SJW agenda in the game. In fact, I think the game is pretty binary. I'm currently at the Valentine area. 

Bethesda should learn with Rockstar how to make good graphics. I only noticed chromatic aberration in cutting scenes, where the character is dizzy or dreaming.
No purple filter was detected in the screenspace. Contrast was pretty good and I did not need to use curves to fix it. 

 

The nonsence and sad aspects of this game you might find out if you played it little longer. It is no professional product and can ´t be compared with bethesda´s games. I play often with the lasso...anyway is the engine not able to keep the action in presence...it ´s problems appear between server speed and the speed of the animation-engine. Technically at it ´s limits in different ways. I bet it has been coded bad. And I think that rockstar has no clue how to fix the stuff. Lot of nonsence inside, just from the first release.

[dagobaking]

I suspect that Bethesda dropped the ball big-time on Starfield from a production stand-point. I don't think they had even started working on it in earnest until after MS acquired them.

 

For that reason, I don't expect big engine changes or massive amounts of content. Instead, I think they are going to try to salvage it by focusing on modding. I'm expecting a big, blank-slate world along with a more complete modding toolset than we've seen before.

[fishburger67]

1 hour ago, dagobaking said:

I suspect that Bethesda dropped the ball big-time on Starfield from a production stand-point. I don't think they had even started working on it in earnest until after MS acquired them.

 

For that reason, I don't expect big engine changes or massive amounts of content. Instead, I think they are going to try to salvage it by focusing on modding. I'm expecting a big, blank-slate world along with a more complete modding toolset than we've seen before.

Where precisely did you get your information?

 

[South8028]

on topic of weightlessness in starfield. )  

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by South8028

[fishburger67]

19 hours ago, South8028 said:

on topic of weightlessness in starfield. )  

 

Not Starfield.  This is a mod for fallout 4

 

 

[South8028]

4 hours ago, fishburger67 said:

Not Starfield.  This is a mod for fallout 4

 

 

this is just a havok animation made by me in 5 minutes on my knee. I was just joking. ) But I'm really interested in how they implement weightlessness. I read that there will be 3 environments in the game. Usual animation, water and space. Those animations will switch depending on the interiors (or worlds). I read that weightlessness will be a complete environment with its own physics. In zero gravity, it will be possible to shoot and the recoil will affect the movement of the character.This is extremely difficult to do (if at all possible). Bethesda dropped the concept of flying institute hunters in fo4 for this reason.

Edited August 7, 2022 by South8028

[dagobaking]

On 8/6/2022 at 1:05 PM, fishburger67 said:

Where precisely did you get your information?

 

I don't have any information that isn't public. That's why I qualified my opinion with "suspect" and "I think."

 

To break down my reasoning:

 

Bethesda gained a huge windfall from Skyrim and to a lesser degree Fallout 4. Ever since then, they've been talking about games without ever showing any actual progress or screens. I see no practical explanation for this as they have had more than enough time and budget to complete multiple games by now.

 

This is why I think they haven't really been working at a normal production rate. They literally have nothing to show for the time.

 

Now that MS has purchased the company, The Wolf of Wallstreet party is probably over. But, it still takes time to actually make games. So, they are behind public expectations. And they must know that Skyrim and Fallout are sure bets that they have to get right. While Starfield frankly does not matter very much. It then makes sense that they would look for ways to save face by at least releasing something for Starfield [soon]. It only has to not be embarrassing.

 

The most obvious way that I can see for them to release something that won't be seen as a total flop is to gear it toward modding.

 

Again, this is just my 10 cents thrown in for fun. I could be wrong.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by dagobaking

[Code Serpent]

26 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

Ever since then, they've been talking about games without ever showing any actual progress or screens.

This is their default operations. Todd has said on multiple occasions that they don't like to show off the game until they're a few months away from release.

26 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

they have had more than enough time and budget to complete multiple games by now.

No. They haven't had enough time and budget. They have a relatively small team of about 300 people working on the main BGS titles. And each game they try to make bigger, and with higher graphical fidelity. They have also overhauled the game engine between Fallout 4 and Starfield, and have built in several enormous systems to handle the space game. Adding planet procedural generation and spaceflight to the Creation Engine would likely take as much effort as making Skyrim over from scratch.

26 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

This is why I think they haven't really been working at a normal production rate. They literally have nothing to show for the time.

Bullshit, see above.

26 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

Now that MS has purchased the company, The Wolf of Wallstreet party is probably over.

Bethesda aren't the kind of people to sit on their wealth, I have no idea where you're getting that cynicism. If anything, they were being pushed to make more money by Zenimax in the years before the purchase. The Creation Club, the Bethesda Launcher, Elder Scrolls Blades, even Fallout 76 all reek of corporate influence to make the purchase as expensive as possible for Microsoft and lucrative as possible for Zenimax's share holders.

26 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

Again, this is just my 10 cents thrown in for fun. I could be wrong.

You are absolutely wrong here.

 

Edit: Just to add some evidence here. This article that came out two months ago, in addition to talking about the mess of development that was Fallout 76, they mention Todd wanting nothing to do with the development of that game, and instead trying to focus on Starfields development, which seems to have started concurrently after Fallout 76's development, directly after the release of Fallout 4.

 

In short, they've been working. They'll show stuff when it's ready. You know nothing Jon Snow.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Code Serpent

[dagobaking]

7 hours ago, Code Serpent said:

This is their default operations. Todd has said on multiple occasions that they don't like to show off the game until they're a few months away from release.

 

Then they showed us what they have and it looks like a year of work, at most. And then they delayed release. ?

 

7 hours ago, Code Serpent said:

No. They haven't had enough time and budget. They have a relatively small team of about 300 people working on the main BGS titles. And each game they try to make bigger, and with higher graphical fidelity. They have also overhauled the game engine between Fallout 4 and Starfield, and have built in several enormous systems to handle the space game. Adding planet procedural generation and spaceflight to the Creation Engine would likely take as much effort as making Skyrim over from scratch.

 

This is entirely dependent on the nature of the changes. Not all "procedural generation" is the same. And from their own promotional materials, there is so far no evidence that they did anything "enormous" outside of how the creationkit already works.

 

7 hours ago, Code Serpent said:

Bullshit, see above.

 

This is just an opinion. No reason for you get cunty over it.

 

7 hours ago, Code Serpent said:

Bethesda aren't the kind of people to sit on their wealth, I have no idea where you're getting that cynicism.

 

I'm getting that cynicism from the amount of time they've had since announcement until now with nothing to show for it. The promo videos they showed do not reflect years and years of work.

 

If they really did advance the engine in some intense way it would be the first thing they showed when promoting the title. Instead, they showed functionality that can be plugged into any game engine in a short time.

 

7 hours ago, Code Serpent said:

If anything, they were being pushed to make more money by Zenimax in the years before the purchase. The Creation Club, the Bethesda Launcher, Elder Scrolls Blades, even Fallout 76 all reek of corporate influence to make the purchase as expensive as possible for Microsoft and lucrative as possible for Zenimax's share holders.

 

What that reeks of to me is that the entire original team was promoted and has been tangled up managing new hires on all of those IP-milking projects.

 

7 hours ago, Code Serpent said:

You are absolutely wrong here.

 

Maybe I am. I definitely am going out on a limb a bit with my hunches. But, is it really something for you to freak out about if you disagree?

[RohZima]

10 hours ago, South8028 said:

this is just a havok animation made by me in 5 minutes on my knee. I was just joking. ) But I'm really interested in how they implement weightlessness. I read that there will be 3 environments in the game. Usual animation, water and space. Those animations will switch depending on the interiors (or worlds). I read that weightlessness will be a complete environment with its own physics. In zero gravity, it will be possible to shoot and the recoil will affect the movement of the character.This is extremely difficult to do (if at all possible). Bethesda dropped the concept of flying institute hunters in fo4 for this reason.

 

Well, what else have you done in havok? Anything that can add new possibilities in SKYRIM or FALLOUT?

 

Like more interactions between objects or skeletons? Like a punch to the face or gut and a sort of semi-ragdoll where only the effected part bounces back..?

 

I don't read anything to do with new game tech, so I don't know. I watched some stuff about the new Unreal Engine that was impressive though, in theory.