Starfield and Creation Engine 2

[South8028]

4 hours ago, RohZima said:

 

Well, what else have you done in havok? Anything that can add new possibilities in SKYRIM or FALLOUT?

 

Like more interactions between objects or skeletons? Like a punch to the face or gut and a sort of semi-ragdoll where only the effected part bounces back..?

 

I don't read anything to do with new game tech, so I don't know. I watched some stuff about the new Unreal Engine that was impressive though, in theory.

I haven't played Skyrim at all. I don't like swords and magic, I love sci-fi and that's why I'm really looking forward to Starfield. Rigs for max 2013 (bgs plugins for fo4 only work with max 2013, and without official tools I don't need hct2014) I found a week ago. t.ara shared with me. With ue it is much easier, because it is an open engine for creativity with a huge knowledge base, ce is closed, there are no tool descriptions. I don't care what to animate, objects, or creatures. I love to just make models and animate. I do something all the time, I use fo4 as a renderer. I like fo4 because it has a workshop. You can quickly assemble the interiors.

[RohZima]

2 hours ago, South8028 said:

I haven't played Skyrim at all. I don't like swords and magic, I love sci-fi and that's why I'm really looking forward to Starfield. Rigs for max 2013 (bgs plugins for fo4 only work with max 2013, and without official tools I don't need hct2014) I found a week ago. t.ara shared with me. With ue it is much easier, because it is an open engine for creativity with a huge knowledge base, ce is closed, there are no tool descriptions. I don't care what to animate, objects, or creatures. I love to just make models and animate. I do something all the time, I use fo4 as a renderer. I like fo4 because it has a workshop. You can quickly assemble the interiors.

 

Then why don't you use UE for testing these animations? I often wonder what I could do in UE but it always seems too daunting.

[Wolfstorm321]

Fallout 4 was released in 2015. 

If Bethesda is working in Starfield since 2015, that's seven years. With a team of 300 developers, they would have much more to show in these videos. 

 

[South8028]

2 hours ago, RohZima said:

 

Then why don't you use UE for testing these animations? I often wonder what I could do in UE but it always seems too daunting.

I don't feel like it. Laziness. I'm not going to develop indie games, and I'm not connected in any way with 3D professionally. It's just a hobby. But if I wanted to deal with games or cinema professionally in future, then of course I would have mastered ue. Because this is standard today, and because virtual production will soon replace chromakey everywhere. For virtual production, ue will also become the standard.

[t.ara]

5 hours ago, South8028 said:

I haven't played Skyrim at all. I don't like swords and magic, I love sci-fi and that's why I'm really looking forward to Starfield. Rigs for max 2013 (bgs plugins for fo4 only work with max 2013, and without official tools I don't need hct2014) I found a week ago. t.ara shared with me. With ue it is much easier, because it is an open engine for creativity with a huge knowledge base, ce is closed, there are no tool descriptions. I don't care what to animate, objects, or creatures. I love to just make models and animate. I do something all the time, I use fo4 as a renderer. I like fo4 because it has a workshop. You can quickly assemble the interiors.

You can use the bethi nif exporter (FO4) also with 3dsmax2014...that ´s fine, too. 2014 means you install the ´14 version or the "design" version, both are compatible.

[South8028]

12 minutes ago, t.ara said:

You can use the bethi nif exporter (FO4) also with 3dsmax2014...that ´s fine, too. 2014 means you install the ´14 version or the "design" version, both are compatible.

Thanks, I didn't know that.

[fishburger67]

16 hours ago, dagobaking said:

Then they showed us what they have and it looks like a year of work, at most. And then they delayed release.

I don't think you understand the difficulty and scope of this project.  Rockstar has been working 6 years on GTA6 and are still a year out.  We will wait 5 years for Mass Effect 4 and who knows how long Harry Potter and Avatar.  CP2077 took 5 years and it was still a year from done when it was released.   Starfield is larger in scope and although they do not have all the mocap sessions to administer and integrate, it is a LOT of work. especially given the limited number of people applied to it.

 

 

 

 

[fishburger67]

4 hours ago, t.ara said:

You can use the bethi nif exporter (FO4) also with 3dsmax2014...that ´s fine, too. 2014 means you install the ´14 version or the "design" version, both are compatible.

Anything you know of that might export to Blender.  I don't like using pirated software and I have no intention of buying max or maya for hobby use.

[dagobaking]

On 8/8/2022 at 2:42 PM, fishburger67 said:

I don't think you understand the difficulty and scope of this project.

 

What is this belief about me based on?

 

The project has already had years of time since announcement. They showed us their progress and it revealed nothing difficult or large in scope. Everything they showed either fits exactly within their legacy engine or is routine work. The quality of artwork is very good. But, very little is shown of it. The fact that they had simplistic, placeholder names for the bad guys is not promising toward the speculation that they have already completed a large quantity of characters.

 

Shooter scenes. Basic. Done a million times. Little or no environment destruction or other features that would reflect years of work.

The enemy AI looks basic.

Space flight shooter. Basic. Done a million times even by individual developers.

Face animation does look better as you pointed out. However, that is not new/unique technology that reflects years of effort. Has been standard fare in AAA games for a couple years now.

Beyond faces, animations and character creation look like same system as previous titles.

Spaceship builder. SOME complexity. But, not years worth. And note how they did not really show that system working beyond the builder view.

GUI looks like a re-skin of the same GUI system they've used since Skyrim.

 

On 8/8/2022 at 2:42 PM, fishburger67 said:

Rockstar has been working 6 years on GTA6 and are still a year out.

 

I'm not arguing that it's impossible to spend that much time working on a game. I'm pointing out that Bethesda, specifically in this case, does not look like they spent the time working away passionately on Starfield. For that matter, I don't think the TES sequel was really being worked on either until recently.

[Wolfstorm321]

Well, Dead Space 3 had zero gravity parts, where your character floated in space and you had to use some magnetic boots (or whatever it was) to "glue" into the floor to be able to walk. But not even that is showed in Bethesda's previews. Production of Dead Space 3 took two years, whereas Bethesda had seven years of development. 

[Kendo 2]

I hope the game is good and I'll have something new to play when it goes on sale.  That said, I understand the anticipation but it's going to be a fucking Bethesda game.  Todd is gonna lie and over-sell it (already happening), fanboi Youtubers are gonna shill for it (also already happening), and so-called game journos are gonna play it for a couple of hours and churn out glowing 1000 word 'best game evah' reviews.  It's the typical horseshit we're all familiar with.  Prediction: Bethesda will sit on the CK for a year so they can push their Star Shop or whatever the fuck they'll call their paid modding scam.

 

What I don't understand is people defending and justifying the actions of a multimillion dollar corporation.  It's the Church of Bethesda and they are self-appointed crusaders.

 

 

[bnub345]

Star Shop, that's pretty good. 

[South8028]

2 hours ago, Wolfstorm321 said:

Well, Dead Space 3 had zero gravity parts, where your character floated in space and you had to use some magnetic boots (or whatever it was) to "glue" into the floor to be able to walk. But not even that is showed in Bethesda's previews. Production of Dead Space 3 took two years, whereas Bethesda had seven years of development. 

In the concept art of Fo4 before release,  planned its own flying institute transport with synth paratroopers on jetpacks (called Skyhunters). In the end, Beth abandoned this due to the complexity of the implementation. This implied the difficulty of 3D maneuvering in confined spaces (for example, heads falling through textures and arms sticking out of walls), and the difficulty of creating npc capable of moving from a pedestrian state to a flying unit state. To seriously control the animation of creatures in weightlessness, in confined spaces, some procedure for processing npc coordinates in collision projections, in 3 dimensions, will be required. I don't know how, for example, npc flight can be implemented in fo4. It would be interesting to recreate the transport of the Institute and skyhunters.

[Wolfstorm321]

10 hours ago, South8028 said:

In the concept art of Fo4 before release,  planned its own flying institute transport with synth paratroopers on jetpacks (called Skyhunters). In the end, Beth abandoned this due to the complexity of the implementation. This implied the difficulty of 3D maneuvering in confined spaces (for example, heads falling through textures and arms sticking out of walls), and the difficulty of creating npc capable of moving from a pedestrian state to a flying unit state. To seriously control the animation of creatures in weightlessness, in confined spaces, some procedure for processing npc coordinates in collision projections, in 3 dimensions, will be required. I don't know how, for example, npc flight can be implemented in fo4. It would be interesting to recreate the transport of the Institute and skyhunters.

 

 

Bethesda made $1.2 billion with Skyrim. If they don't know how to implement flying, they can just buy it from a third party. 

Or change the engine, if that's the case. Just buy a license to use a better engine. 

They are literally swimming in money and can solve these issues easily. 

They don't do that because they know they have a cult who will fix it for them. 

[flatline99]

As they are now a part of microsoft i think there will be much more money than this 1.2 billion ?

[fishburger67]

19 hours ago, dagobaking said:

The project has already had years of time since announcement. They showed us their progress and it revealed nothing difficult or large in scope. Everything they showed either fits exactly within their legacy engine or is routine work. The quality of artwork is very good. But, very little is shown of it. The fact that they had simplistic, placeholder names for the bad guys is not promising toward the speculation that they have already completed a large quantity of characters.

Years is not too much.  5 years at a minimum is more than reasonable and you can bet your sweet ass that given the money they will earn, they will get it out as fast as they can possible do it.  Remember what happened to CP2077 because they released it a year early.  ALL major studios have taken this to heart.

 

Beth is working hard on this and have been for at least 5 years.

[bnub345]

4 minutes ago, fishburger67 said:

Remember what happened to CP2077 because they released it a year early.  ALL major studios have taken this to heart.

 

 

Releasing games that are unfinished and buggy at release has been the industry standard for at least a decade now. As long as people keep buying and pre-ordering them at release that won't change. I'm not sure where you get the idea that any publisher is taking lessons to heart that don't impact their bottom line. 

 

As for Starfield, I expect it to release feature complete but full of bugs. That's how all of Bethsofts prior flagship titles have been anyway. 

[27X]

On 8/4/2022 at 9:33 AM, South8028 said:

They do everything themselves. They have a staff of c++ programmers working on the engine in collaboration with nvidea, intel, microsoft, amd, etc. Animations are made by specialized departments and entire companies, and freelancing is perhaps partially used. For example, my friend works with several companies in US and Israel at once, both in game development and in film production. He does animation and special effects at Houdini. His animations are simply exported later in various formats and used in games and movie serials. He is not a full-time employee and receives money for specific work performed. Most likely, freelancing, hiring intellectual slaves, is widely used in game development.

 

Japan has been using entire "white label" studios since the 90s, much less individual contractors.

[27X]

12 hours ago, fishburger67 said:

CP2077 because they released it a year early. 

 

2077 was never going to release in the state Badowski wanted, because he had no idea what he wanted until it happened. If they had Blizzard money they'd still be working on it right now.

Edited August 11, 2022 by 27X

[flatline99]

Even if i doubt that "ALL major studios have taken this to heart." i think they have noticed CP2077 and maybe there are some publisher who will take a bit more time till release.

[Clea Strange]

game studios have been releasing games buggy and unfinished games for decades now. Or as they like to call it early access, where people buy the game and play what is out. Then while they are playing they report the bugs and anything else and send it back in. Then over the months and years the studios will release patches to fix the bugs and add more content until the game is fully released.

 

Which is I want to say is mostly or if not all on steam. I could be wrong on that cause their is other game platforms

 

For starfield I can see it will be up to the modders to make the game even better. Mods to make the combat better, better graphics, more content and quests. Of course their will be modders will add NSFW content "maybe"

Edited August 11, 2022 by Clea Strange

[dagobaking]

21 hours ago, fishburger67 said:

Years is not too much.  5 years at a minimum is more than reasonable and you can bet your sweet ass that given the money they will earn, they will get it out as fast as they can possible do it.  Remember what happened to CP2077 because they released it a year early.  ALL major studios have taken this to heart.

 

I somewhat disagree. On one hand, I'm open to there being games that are so revolutionary that they require 5 years of work. But, if we are talking about making "another Skyrim" or "Skyrim in space with customized spaceships", from the company that made and owns the original Skyrim code/engine, I am quite confident that this does not reflect 5+ years of work. In fact, Skyrim itself only took 3 years to make back when they had less money to spend on scaling the team up via freelance artists, etc.

 

Look at Assassin's Creed. They have made a sequel every 1-2 years from 2007 to 2020.

 

Each of those sequels includes completely new world artwork. All new NPCs. New storyline, writing, cut-scenes. Often times new engine/gameplay mechanics.

 

I think that CP2077 reinforces my position. It's very difficult for game development companies to transition from young, scrappy upstarts to genre-dominating behemoths without losing steam in the quality and production speed department. There are just a lot of business pitfalls that come with a windfall of cash: increased corporate influence to milk IP, taking on more projects than the company is ready for, hiring more people than they are ready for, spending too much time in pre-production because its fun and the budget is there, and more.

 

Same pattern often happens with music bands, movie directors, etc.

 

21 hours ago, fishburger67 said:

Beth is working hard on this and have been for at least 5 years.

 

I respect that you believe that. But, what evidence is that belief based on?

[Kendo 2]

So who at Bethesda actually said Starfield will be modifiable outside the next incarnation of their official paid modding platform? 

 

 

[dagobaking]

That's always possible. But, I think it would be huge flop for them.

 

It's just a guess by me. But, I think it will be the opposite direction. I think they will bank on the mod-friendliness of Starfield to offset not meeting public expectations for production scope. Which, imo, isn't really a bad outcome.

[fishburger67]

2 hours ago, Kendo 2 said:

So who at Bethesda actually said Starfield will be modifiable outside the next incarnation of their official paid modding platform? 

 

 

Todd Howard