Devious Followers - Continued

[Lupine00]

Nobody has complained about the new willpower option not working how they expect.

 

Is the resist thing turning out useful?

 

My follower isn't putting me through the wringer just now, so I haven't done anything other than artificial tests.

[legraf]

Regarding "Master" and "Mistress", I'll note first that the (now removed?) Captured Dreams mod of course had a female "Master".

 

I'll also agree with Zagzaguel that "mistress" is complicated, but it's not correct to say that "master" doesn't have a female equivalent - both were brought into English from Old French, Maistre (yes with an "s", this is not modern French) and Maistresse, which become Master and Mistress respectively.  They have been equivalent, in their early usage, for centuries - both referred to someone with authority over others (and class standing as well).

 

Zagzaguel's position on how we interpret titles is also far from universal, although it's one some people hold rather strongly.  And although there is a movement to erase gendered titles, claiming that this makes "Master" (as arguably gender neutral) necessarily superior or stronger to "Mistress" is only one intepretation, though I'll agree that in modern usage "Mistress" specifically is freighted by two to three centuries of declining prestige and increasing sexualization.  But Skyrim's not modern, and is filled with archaic titles.

 

So I think there's plenty of room here for using either - I'd consider using a variable anyway, which not only lets players choose if they feel strongly about this (or if they want the flavour more serious or more sexy if that's how these titles are being viewed), but also gives an easier way to modify some dialogue dynamically with decreasing willpower or some other measure... "x, do you have any keys?"  where X can be the NPC's name, or Friend, or Sir, or Mistress, or Hey You (in keeping with Pernitax' post above).  Obviously it's even better if the dialogue is written from scratch for each of twenty overlapping levels of power imbalance ... have fun with that!

[Lupine00]

13 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

 

It definetly sounds like it brings some more dynamic into it and isnt just a back and forth like the old willpower system was

I don't know if the resistance adjustment will solve the collapsing willpower problem, but if you set it to a positive value, I should think it will.

 

Another problem with Willpower is the spiky events that consume huge reserves of resistance, which leads to poor willpower, which leads to more events.

 

e.g.

Piercing deal - follower is forced to strip in town.

Which results in a rape.

Which ends with a device applied.

And that leads to two more rapes.

Then the follower starts a game.

Which has 22 sex events while heavily bound.

 

Your willpower is always going to struggle not to be zero at the end of that.

But simply popping it back up to 10 doesn't seem an answer.

 

With the resistance tweak, you might end it on 2 or 3 willpower instead. Possibly.

And then you might regain 3 points ... fine so far ... unless the event repeats and you crash all your willpower in go again.

 

Part of the problem is other mods that add to the risk, and part of the problem is games that lead to huge resistance loss in one go.

They're supposed to hurt willpower, but maybe not so much.

 

Perhaps a system where the willpower lost per day is capped too? So you couldn't lose more than three (player option) in a single day.

That means you need four days to hit zero, rather than getting there in one straightjacket game session.

 

[Krynn]

the whores armor is under: Meshes / Armor / Shitty / Ebony
In any case, with me this is to change there.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Krynn said:

the whores armor is under: Meshes / Armor / Shitty / Ebony
In any case, with me this is to change there.

If you change it there, you'll change your Ebony bikini itself.

Your ebony bikini from TAWoBA will transform into ... whatever you wrote over it.

 

There's no need, because you can have custom whore armor.

 

If you use the custom armor, you can have a separate armor that is classed as whore armor, and you don't have to lose your ebony bikini.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Zagzaguel said:

It doesnt start without EFF and EFF behaves normaly without DF installed.

I'm getting a strong vibe you have old files in your game somehow.

 

That was an old bug back in 2.02a or something like that.

DF crashed without EFF or AFT installed because the soft-deps weren't soft.

[Pernitax]

16 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Nobody has complained about the new willpower option not working how they expect.

 

Is the resist thing turning out useful?

 

My follower isn't putting me through the wringer just now, so I haven't done anything other than artificial tests.

I only played the original mod for a short while and although it was cool it was so buggy and chaotic that for a while I wasn't really sure willpower ever worked.
The way I am playing now is using the "deals reduce willpower" and "devices reduce max resistance" options. With these willpower has a somewhat steady decline.
That said resistance still drains extremely slowly, some options (like the first few tiers of the slut deal) seem to do nothing for it (or maybe I'm not getting how it's supposed to work).

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Zagzaguel said:

Was the "Deals affect max willpower" always an option? I never reallized that one

Yes, but it's not that useful in practice. You can use with the the new regain mode, or not. Your choice.

[Lupine00]

2 minutes ago, Pernitax said:

That said resistance still drains extremely slowly, some options (like the first few tiers of the slut deal) seem to do nothing for it (or maybe I'm not getting how it's supposed to work).

The resistance cost of certain things probably wants looking at.

I expect that I'm a slut only drains one resistance, at most. Which could be fine.

Depends how often you talk to NPCs.

 

That deal gets you later at stage 2, but only if you have naked rape mods.

[Pernitax]

10 hours ago, legraf said:

Regarding "Master" and "Mistress", I'll note first that the (now removed?) Captured Dreams mod of course had a female "Master".

 

I'll also agree with Zagzaguel that "mistress" is complicated, but it's not correct to say that "master" doesn't have a female equivalent - both were brought into English from Old French, Maistre (yes with an "s", this is not modern French) and Maistresse, which become Master and Mistress respectively.  They have been equivalent, in their early usage, for centuries - both referred to someone with authority over others (and class standing as well).

 

Zagzaguel's position on how we interpret titles is also far from universal, although it's one some people hold rather strongly.  And although there is a movement to erase gendered titles, claiming that this makes "Master" (as arguably gender neutral) necessarily superior or stronger to "Mistress" is only one intepretation, though I'll agree that in modern usage "Mistress" specifically is freighted by two to three centuries of declining prestige and increasing sexualization.  But Skyrim's not modern, and is filled with archaic titles.

 

So I think there's plenty of room here for using either - I'd consider using a variable anyway, which not only lets players choose if they feel strongly about this (or if they want the flavour more serious or more sexy if that's how these titles are being viewed), but also gives an easier way to modify some dialogue dynamically with decreasing willpower or some other measure... "x, do you have any keys?"  where X can be the NPC's name, or Friend, or Sir, or Mistress, or Hey You (in keeping with Pernitax' post above).  Obviously it's even better if the dialogue is written from scratch for each of twenty overlapping levels of power imbalance ... have fun with that!

I mean I am crawling around a sort-of-medieval fantasy world wearing what's pretty obviously 21st century bondage gear. I feel like the need for knowing exactly what title is more historically correct has long passed.
'Mistress' is more widely used today I think and it makes me hornier when I read it on the screen. Those are my arguments

 

Regarding dialogue: I would be happy to assist with writing text or dialogue if needed, I have experience working on adult games (writing and coding) but I have literally zero knowledge of modding skyrim and wouldn't even know how to start editing texts on my own.

[Pernitax]

4 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

The resistance cost of certain things probably wants looking at.

I expect that I'm a slut only drains one resistance, at most. Which could be fine.

Depends how often you talk to NPCs.

 

That deal gets you later at stage 2, but only if you have naked rape mods.

I checked and at least for me it never drains anything, not until I get to stage 3 (or maybe lower willpower?). Being whored out has some weirdness to it as well although I am not entirely sure.

I decided to pass on rape mods, with being whored out, used by my follower and having to work for the antidote to the weird potion I barely have time to do anything in towns as it is

[Darkwing241]

5 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Perhaps a system where the willpower lost per day is capped too? So you couldn't lose more than three (player option) in a single day.

That means you need four days to hit zero, rather than getting there in one straightjacket game session.

I think I have a solution to the spikey willpower issue

 

Keep the two variables, resistance and willpower.

 

Resistance gets reduced by events, usually rape and submissive actions, It's restored by rest and defiant actions (other things?).  Resistance has no direct impact on gameplay.

 

Willpower gets reduced over time when the player is at low resistance, regardless of what else is happening,. The PCs willpower will drain off at a set rate. At high resistance Willpower recovers at a set rate.  Willpower determines what choices the PC can make.  A high willpower PC can refuse deals, can spot the DF cheating and can give sassy responses.  A low willpower PC can not refuse deals, is easily tricked and has more submissive dialogue options.

 

Scenario 1: mega rape fest for 1 day then escape

-resistance gets smashed instantly, and willpower starts to degrade

-PC escapes with most willpower intact and vows to never let that happen again (resistance starts to recover, preventing further willpower loss)

-PC is not conditioned to be accepting of the situation, despite the "spike"

 

Scenario 2: DF regularly humiliates the PC and avoids giving her a chance to recover

-resistance tapers off, the PC spends a week or so behaving normally

-the PC's willpower degrades far enough that she becomes conditioned to accept the DF's treatment 

-The DF takes advantage and enslaves the PC or tricks her into further deals

-One good nights rest doesn't necessarily free the PC as her low willpower still makes it difficult to say no, despite her resistance having recovered

 

Scenario 3: mega rape fest unending

-resistance gets smashed instantly, and will power gets to degrade

-the PC's willpower degrades and she becomes conditioned to accept the treatment if she spends to long living like this

-The DF takes advantage and enslaves the PC

-One good nights rest doesn't necessarily free the PC as her low willpower still makes it difficult to say no

 

Scenario 4: The DF has insufficient power over the PC to break her

-Resistance goes up and down, the PC never loses willpower

-the PC retains the freedom to make her own choices and takes/rejects deals to her own advantage, occasionally allowing the DF to humiliate her for money.

 

I think these 4 scenario's pretty accurately describe most of the possibilities.  I think they make a certain amount of logical sense, and they also clearly differentiate what resistance and willpower are (rather than the original system of them being hitpoints and "more hitpoints").  I think this system also give a nice variety of RPG choices to players and the mod maker.  Deals are currently very cosmetic in many cases and managing deals often tends to be 'just avoid getting put in bondage that blocks gameplay"  Varying penalties (or even rewards) for deals gives a ton of agency to the player, while still keeping the theme of the mod about the pc gradually selling away her freedom.

 

Some less strictly cosmetic deal effects.

-Every time you confess you are a slut you feel a wave of humiliation, maybe eventually the pc starts to believe it (take resistance damage)

-Wearing a collar makes you feel submissive all the time (caps your willpower at 80%)

-Wearing an armbinder makes everything just a little more rape-y (multiply other resistance losses by 1.5)

 

Now the player can be presented with options and gets to make meaningful choices.  It feels like an RPG. Here are some example gameplay decisions.

 

-Can I afford a big one time resistance hit?  (strategy)

-I've been bottoming out on resistance from time to time maybe I need to keep my base willpower up? (strategy)

-Psh, free money for calling myself a slut, I'm on board! (strategy)

-My character would look great in that! (cosmetic)

-Ugh this deal is so time consuming and not fun or even sexy to me right now (preference)

 

TLDR: Use a classic hunger/starvation mechanic. Don't eat for too long and HP start to drop.  Eat well and HP starts to heal.

[Bound]

I kind of like the concept of limiting how much willpower you can lose in a day, it fixes the problem of a single event/bad day breaking you to 0. BUT, it also seems to somewhat trivialize that horrible single event/bad day.

 

Maybe there is a way to invert that fix so instead of limiting how much you lose during a day, it provides a minimum of how much you can recover after sleeping at least, say, 3 hours, no matter how uncomfortable that sleep might be. So if you start the day-from-hell at 10 will, by the end you may well be down to zero, but with at least a little rest you're guaranteed to be back to at least 10-3 = 7?  You'd get the short term beatdown into compliance, but it would take 4 days of downhill slide to get fully broken.

[legraf]

59 minutes ago, Darkwing241 said:

Resistance gets reduced by events, usually rape and submissive actions, It's restored by rest and defiant actions (other things?).  Resistance has no direct impact on gameplay.

I really like Darkwing241's solution, which puts some limits on both the rising and falling rate of willpower.  Perhaps it can use the same timer as the payment frequency (to give easy configurability and not add a new timer), and be tuned to a default 3 willpower rise/fall maximum for a day (also easily configurable).  Every "tick", willpower is adjusted:

 

Resistance 0-3: -1 willpower (or (max willpower change per day / frequency of checks))

Resistance 4-6: no change

Resistance 7-10: +1 willpower

 

Resistance's main restoration is from sleep, although some events could raise it ... most events should lower it, however, to balance out the sleep gain.  This also means that a sleep-deprived PC is subject to more willpower loss, as is proper.  If some devices or deals cap maximum resistance this would have to be handled carefully - max resistance should never drop below 7 using the above table, or doom is too inevitable.

 

Thinking of sleep deprivation, perhaps sleep that leaves the PC less than "well rested" could bring willpower up to a lesser maximum value?  It would need a delay on waking to catch events (like SL Survival's) that "correct" restedness on waking.  Only after this is the morning "willpower" check performed (presumably one would be due unless sleep was very short, which is possible).

 

Well Rested = 10

Rested = 8 or 9?

Mildly fatigued = 7?

etc.

 

 

Also:

Since other mods (SL Survival, to start) are interested in toying with willpower, a great additional feature for DF would be an event other mods could trigger - then DF could decide how best to handle their "request" to raise or lower willpower according to its own (unfairly?) balanced rules.

[stobor]

17 minutes ago, legraf said:

Since other mods (SL Survival, to start) are interested in toying with willpower, a great additional feature for DF would be an event other mods could trigger - then DF could decide how best to handle their "request" to raise or lower willpower according to its own (unfairly?) balanced rules.

That is an excellent suggestion.  Spank That Ass is another mod which changes willpower in ways that may not be 'balanced' with DF as things currently stand.

[Darkwing241]

4 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

I just wonder if that changes anything tho. It definetly sounds more intresting than having Resistances just working like a shield but if you dont have any other mods to effectively drop resistance than youre running around with 10 willpower all the time

I'd assume it would be at least somewhat configurable, Lupine is one of the best in the business about letting players self balance.  If you are playing in a kink wasteland, devoid of sexy outside of DF, just turn up a global resistance loss multiplier and turn down resistance regeneration on rest.

 

The primary goal of the design was to deal with the opposite end of the spectrum though.  Where lots of mods pile on events and result in an instantly broken down PC.

 

Even if resistance and willpower regeneration has no customization options I think you could still make this system work in a low kink environment.  All you would have to do it turn up your DF's pay/interest.  The DF then would provide all the resistance lowering events you could ever need.

[Reesewow]

42 minutes ago, legraf said:

I really like Darkwing241's solution, which puts some limits on both the rising and falling rate of willpower.  Perhaps it can use the same timer as the payment frequency (to give easy configurability and not add a new timer), and be tuned to a default 3 willpower rise/fall maximum for a day (also easily configurable).  Every "tick", willpower is adjusted:

 

Resistance 0-3: -1 willpower (or (max willpower change per day / frequency of checks))

Resistance 4-6: no change

Resistance 7-10: +1 willpower

 

I also want to +1 Darkwing's ideas for willpower/resistance gain and loss.  

 

I think my one suggestion to such a system would be an option to have a "critical" resistance value, where willpower falls faster than the base low-resistance.  Essentially meaning that if you bottom out on resistance completely, you would lose 2/3 willpower per "loss" calculation.  This would add some incentive to still try to sleep in an environment where you are spending most of your time at low resistance and don't really have hope of gaining much willpower.  It would also make situations where that is not possible more devastating as you are stuck at 0 resistance with no hope of rest for a long period vs situations where you are just stuck at low (but not 0) resistance over a period of days.

 

I do think there should also still be an option for getting a full nights sleep to restore some willpower directly, as that leaves a bit of room for small variations between say 2 willpower and 0 to keep happening while actively playing, even if resistance never stays high enough to restore willpower itself.

[Reesewow]

58 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

Id guess that the real issue with handling it this way is how everything is regenerated. I like the idea of having some timebased events

Im just wondering if its not too much work to make the system as you suggested and you cant just expect that everyone modstheir game into a "kinky wonderland"

I don't think you'd need to mod your game into a kinky wonderland for a decaying willpower system to work.  For sure it would take some effort to implement however.

 

I do think you would need to be able to control how DF and other mods affect resistance however.  A few ideas for that:

 

• An option for DF to directly reduce your resistance over time, regardless of anything else happening.  This would make it even more like a needs mod stat, and might be important for someone who is using DF without any other mods that either trigger rapes or affect resistance/willpower directly.

 

• An option to control how much external events reduce resistance.  Meaning someone who rarely gets into kinky situations in their game could have the few they do encounter hurt resistance a lot, or even crash it entirely. 

 

Setting the mod this way would make DF treat rapes more like a "trauma" event - if it does happen, you need to find a bed to stop your willpower from falling and let the PC recover from the event. 

 

People who run a more kinky setup could have each scene only do a small amount of damage, and need to see a lot more sex before they need to sleep to recover (and recover all their other stuff like Apropos W&T/Spank that Ass masochism/SL Survival cum breath debuffs... yea my setup definitely is more kinky wonderland than not ).

[Clea Strange]

I have read through the posts to see if my question is answered but I do not see it, so I apologize if the answer is given but did not see it

 

My question is this do I overwrite Devious Followers with this?

[BigOnes69]

3 hours ago, Hiderius said:

I have read through the posts to see if my question is answered but I do not see it, so I apologize if the answer is given but did not see it

 

My question is this do I overwrite Devious Followers with this?

No it is standalone

[Lupine00]

16 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

With Lupines new system, each Willpower basically has its own shield of a few resistance points

They always did. But in DF 1.X, IIRC resistance diminished as willpower fell, so willpower loss accelerated.

 

Lozeak removed that for 2.X

 

I've made it so you can recreate the old system, or the opposite, so you can have extra resistance as willpower drops - because willpower tends to get more pressure on it to drop, as it drops, which leads to the the classic willpower graph of 10 10 10 9 9 8 4 0 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 1 ... etc.

 

But the pressures on willpower will vary in your game. Like follower debt-rates, it's something you need to set up for your build, and it takes a lot of tweaks to get it right in most cases. I can't really fix that, and probably shouldn't.

 

After all, we want willpower to vary, but we want it to vary for a clearly visible reason.

 

The main reason for willpower loss in the average DF game, is sex while wearing devices.

This can happen due to rape, or follower games.

 

Follower games don't require any other mods to destroy a good chunk of willpower.

However, they are limited to only occur every so many days, so they shouldn't wreck your willpower constantly.

 

In contrast, some other mods that result in frequent rape, and particularly rape because you are naked or bound hit willpower fast and consistently.

Once you get bound, you get raped, and you lose willpower, and you stay bound, and it repeats.

By the time you get free you are "broken".

 

In DF 1.X you couldn't recover a meaningful amount of willpower if you had devices on. Otherwise, you probably could.

 

DF 2.X always recovered all the willpower, which is now something you can choose not to have.

 

What options are best for your game will vary, but I think there is a fair amount of options.

 

 

If I added a max loss per day, it would give another tool for players to tune their game, but there is no right answer for what is needed.

 

OTOH, rewriting the system to work quite differently, as Darkwing suggests, is probably a lot more work, and I think it merely changes the problem, but doesn't remedy it. There will still be cases where you get willpower collapse, or resistance collapse then willpower collapse (most likely). Those cases will just vary a bit from now. Maybe more, maybe less. 

 

I think it would help more to review ways in which resistance is lost and possibly tune a few out of balance cases, or add a few new ones, so there's more early pressure on willpower, so you can lose a point here or there - if you keep deals long term - without having to get a lot of deals.

[Pernitax]

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Follower games don't require any other mods to destroy a good chunk of willpower.

However, they are limited to only occur every so many days, so they shouldn't wreck your willpower constantly.

Are follower games that much of an issue? They seem extremely hard to trigger from my end, I only ever seen the Jarl game despite actively trying to trigger some in the past.
In my experience by the time you have a low enough willpower to trigger one of them you are already wearing too many restraints for it to occur (the chastity belt especially seems to complete,y block most of them)
Or am I missing something?

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, Pernitax said:

Are follower games that much of an issue?

I'm not saying they are an issue. They are a feature, and they do much what we expect regarding willpower. I don't see a problem with them in that regard.

 

If there is a problem, it's that some players never see them. Some, like the Jarl game have a number of restrictive conditions and are not easy to trigger.

 

 

Each one is related to you wearing a certain kind of device. If you aren't wearing any of the trigger devices you won't see them.

 

Collar => Jarl game

Blindfold => straightjacket game

Gag => sleep attack game

Boots => pony game

 

There's the thing with DF... Lozeak tried to fill it with surprises, that you discover slowly and by luck, but people just want to see all the content in a rush.

 

Modular deals make it a lot more likely you'll be wearing a device from the trigger list, except blindfolds. The straightjacket game is pretty nasty if you have rape mods that fire on bound PCs. If you also have DCL device comments, it can really get out of hand. I guess that's fine. People put those mods in and set them up that way expecting results.

 

A gloves or cuffs triggered game would be nice. Cuffs are a particularly ineffectual device, so having an eventful game that triggers off them would be a nice surprise for people who thought they got a soft option in a deal.

[Lupine00]

The next release will have support for a mod event to remove resistance.

Mods that directly remove willpower should stop doing that, because they circumvent player options in Devious Followers (and always did).

If you want to be backwards compatible, it's the caller's responsibility to check the mod version.

 

A call to _DFlowMCM.GetScriptVersion() that returns 20600 or higher indicates a version of DF that will support the event.

 

ModEvent: DF-ResistanceLoss

 

Implemented as:

Function HandleResistanceLoss(String eventNameUnused, String strUnused, Float resistanceToRemove, Form sender)

 

Set the Float parameter to the amount of resistance that you want to remove (a positive amount).

Negative amounts will be ignored.

 

 

If your mod currently remove Willpower directly, you might think, how can I work out what resistance to remove to remove one willpower.

Don't think about it that way. The entire point of resistance is that the player decides how fast they lose willpower.

 

You can essentially remove the mechanic from your own mod that determined how much willpower gets stripped, and instead let DF handle it, as it was always intended to do. The player configures the ratio of resistance to willpower, and how resistance gets regenerated in the DF MCM, and you shouldn't worry about it.

 

Instead, pick a fixed amount of resistance to remove, or let the player select how much resistance to remove.

 

However, naively, there will probably be a ratio of around 20 resistance to 1 willpower point lost.

 

The range of max resistance is 5 to 30, with a default of 20, but this can be varied by other mechanics, including deals and player options.

Don't waste effort trying to reverse this calculation. Work in terms of resistance and stop thinking in terms of willpower points lost.

 

Setting willpower directly causes other issues as well. It always messed up resistance handling in DF, and still does. So please avoid it.

[Clea Strange]

if I may make a suggestion, have it where if you are wearing a gag you can ask your follower to temporarily remove the gag so that you can eat and drink if you are using a needs mod