Devious Followers - Continued

[legraf]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Function HandleResistanceLoss(String eventNameUnused, String strUnused, Float resistanceToRemove, Form sender)

 

Set the Float parameter to the amount of resistance that you want to remove (a positive amount).

Negative amounts will be ignored.

Why not support resistance increase as well, for the very rare cases where someone wants to mod events that stiffen the PC's spine?  So negative values for the resistanceToRemove parameter?  Or, because I can imagine using positive values for "bad" and negative for "good" outcomes would get under your skin, reword it to "resistanceChange", accepting positive and negative changes?  (Rewording the function and event too in that case)

 

Fantastic addition regardless.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, legraf said:

Why not support resistance increase as well,

Because actually that is a ton of work (resistance increase was allowed to rot in transition from 1.X to 2.X), and nobody seems to need it, so YAGNI applies.

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, Hiderius said:

if I may make a suggestion, have it where if you are wearing a gag you can ask your follower to temporarily remove the gag so that you can eat and drink if you are using a needs mod

I decided on a simpler idea, that would avoid adding a load of dialog options to make this work.

 

I'm going to change things that use a gag for non-enslaved PC to allow no gag in dungeons.

Not wilderness, just dungeons.

This has some nice side effects.

 

Wake up, hungry and thirsty. Can't fix it.

Limp to dungeon to begin working for your follower boss.

You can remove the gag, eat and drink to restore your energy for fighting.

Remember to put your gag back before leaving (or punishment debt).

Leave to return to inn, perhaps a long journey.

Arrive, hungry and thirsty. Can't fix it without annoying the follower.

Sleep.

Wake up feeling worse than yesterday.

 

For fights not in a dungeon, it's just hard luck, but you're no worse off than you were before.

 

 

For slaves, I'm going to make the follower force feed you minimal food and drink in the morning, whether you like it or not.

You may well be consistently impaired due to thirst and hunger, but you won't die.

Get your owner to remove your gag if you want to control your own mouth hole.

 

 

Today I've been working on gold related issues.

Fixed a small issue where credit you had as -ve debt could vanish.

Improved updating of gold generally in gold control.

Less spurious add/remove of gold.

Added a mod event so external mods can adjust debt correctly.

[Bane Master]

May I suggest a possible bug fix?

 

I get occasional bouts of log spam from _dtickPlayerAlias OnLocationChange due to it running when I am in a none location

I have been patching it myself but wondered if you would like to add the fix to the source.

 

Spoiler

 

Event OnLocationChange(Location OldLocation, Location NewLocation)
GoldCont.Recalc()

If NewLocation ; Added Check for None Location
	If NewLocation.HasKeyWord(LocTypeDungeon)
		NewType = "LocD"
	Elseif NewLocation.HasKeyWord(LocTypeCity)||NewLocation.HasKeyWord(LocTypeTown)
		NewType = "LocT"
	Elseif NewLocation.HasKeyWord(LocTypeDwelling)
		NewType = "LocDw"
	Else
		NewType = "LocW"
	endif

	if NewType != Oldtype
		if MCM._DFLocNoti
			MCM.Noti(NewType)
		endif
		;Hum.Use(NewType)
	endif
	OldType = NewType
Endif

EndEvent

 

 

 

[Lupine00]

57 minutes ago, Bane Master said:

I have been patching it myself but wondered if you would like to add the fix to the source.

Done.

[Pernitax]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Collar => Jarl game

Blindfold => straightjacket game

Gag => sleep attack game

Boots => pony game

 

Can you tell the actual triggers? I gave it a try (looked up the suggestions from the original mod as well) but only managed to trigger the jarl game.

Jarl game seems to need a collar, less than 5 willpower and no chastity or harness
Piercings and plug is okay, have not tried it with boots and gloves.

[Sospice]

On 10/15/2019 at 8:32 AM, Lupine00 said:

Good grief.

This is not good is it?

 

It seems that this fragment starts the Jarl game.

 

However, @Sospice the problem you see, is an empty quest property. A quest property that is set in the CK.

The other warning about a None assignment is non-specific and probably just refers to the empty quest as well.

Because your game quest property is empty in the fragment, it can't start the game, and nothing really happens.

You end up with DFlow in the waiting for game-end stage, waiting for a game to end that was never started.

 

You can "fix" by doing a setstage in the console to put _DFlow back to stage 100.

 

 

Notice that the source for this is: TIF_Dfloww_090BD9AC.psc not TIF_Dflow_090BD9AC.psc ?

 

If you think this is trying to equip a straightjacket in your game, it's probably because the script being called is the old one, not the new one, as I see in the CK.

The new one does no equips at all.

 

It looks like this was swapped to a new fragment in the CK, but possibly your game has a reference to the OLD fragment embedded in the save (or maybe the ESP?), or maybe in a merge patch, or bashed patch, or somewhere that keeps coming back in new games?

 

Or possibly, the fragment was never compiled in its correct state, and is the same as the old code.

 

And that might be why you are seeing empty properties too.

 

 

Open up your entire game in Tes5Edit and check for overwrites on the script for dialog XX0BD9AC, where XX is the ID for DF.

 

 

I'm not sure how this is in 2.05, but I'm confident it will be fine in 2.06  

Thanks for the help, also with interpreting and following the flow of the code. What your saying makes sense to me, and I'm guessing either the upgrade didn't totally work, or maybe my save is messed up because as you pointed out... skyrim.

I ended up doing a fresh install on a new game and it works fine now.

One thing I didn't mention and I don't know if it matters, but I was using the custom whore armors and forgot to change out the outfit files in the install of your version to the outfit files I was using for the old version (I was using my own armours for that), and when I went in game and equipped one immediately caused a CTD. Putting the custom outfit files in the proper folder fixed that.

In case you think it's worth putting a warning up for people upgrading, I figured I'd mention it. 

 

[Lupine00]

I will upload Fish0's patch file to the main page downloads list, if Fish0 is happy with that.

 

However, I notice that the USLEEP patching doesn't really work. It does patch Skyrim's dialog correctly, which sort of half-solves a problem.

But the incorrect DF dialog will still be there.

 

This is related to the cause of those annoying double dismiss dialogs.

 

DF needs to be fixed to overwrite the vanilla dialogs, rather than create alternatives.

 

 

Also, I'm thinking of adding some support for SD+, so you can set a weight slider for that and DF slavery, then when you get enslaved via debt, you have a configured chance to get enslaved via SD+ rather than DF. If you are released, you return to DF debt and deals. If you run away/escape, you get debt collectors. If you are sold on, DF debt is added to your SD+ debt and cleared.

 

I'd like to run both slavery paths at once, and actually that may be possible. With a few changes, DF followers don't have to actually be followers.

 

Also, could incorporate SD+ slavery level into max willpower limitation, e.g. max-willpower = 11 - SD+ slavery level (if you enable that option).

 

Is this an exciting route? Or do people generally consider SD+ and DF exclusive experiences?

 

 

Don't panic. I might not do it, and I certainly won't do it for a while, and if I do it, it will be just another option.

[Monoman1]

29 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Don't panic. I might not do it, and I certainly won't do it for a while, and if I do it, it will be just another option.

Options are always good

My only concern is how does SD end? I don't know really. Most of my characters 'masters' meet an untimely end. If your master is essential is it possible to 'get out of it'? 

But of course this really is a problem for SD. 

[Darkwing241]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Is this an exciting route? Or do people generally consider SD+ and DF exclusive experiences?

I consider them exclusive.  Generally I avoid using two large scale mods in the same load order if i'm not actually going to use them at the same time.

 

I don't see any advantage to having them installed at the same time.  I'd always be either choosing my 'favorite experience' or looking to experiment with a 'new experience.'

[Gimlord]

Collar => Jarl game

Blindfold => straightjacket game

Gag => sleep attack game

Boots => pony game

 

Can someone write what happens if these are triggered? I tried the gag and the collar one. Not sure i think i triggered the one with the jarl.
What is the outcome to the rest?

[Reesewow]

1 hour ago, Gimlord said:

Collar => Jarl game

Blindfold => straightjacket game

Gag => sleep attack game

Boots => pony game

 

Can someone write what happens if these are triggered? I tried the gag and the collar one. Not sure i think i triggered the one with the jarl.
What is the outcome to the rest?

Location, current willpower and/or debt level and if you have other DD's already equipped blocking the game items also matters.

 

As far as I can recall off the top of my head:

 

Boots - triggered in dungeons, requires gloves slot to be available

Blindfold - triggered in dungeons, requires chest slot to be available

Gag - requires you to sleep in an inn specifically, I *think* requires either chest slot or armbinder slot to be available. 

 

As to what exactly happens, what's the fun in knowing beforehand? 

 

Quote

Is this an exciting route? Or do people generally consider SD+ and DF exclusive experiences?

This isn't something I'd personally use as I've never had a very rewarding experience with SD+, but more options more better IMO.  For me DF definitely covers the gameplay I originally looked for in SD+, but I don't think they are mutually exclusive experiences.

 

While I'd personally like to see DF's "enslavement" scenario become a fleshed and interesting aspect of the mod in line with the rest of the content, I think solid bridging to other mods that offer that type of scenario is a viable alternative.  Endless mode existing means that even if DF's enslavement is currently not very good, it can be ignored.

[TaylorBandini]

Same i agree

[legraf]

5 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Is this an exciting route? Or do people generally consider SD+ and DF exclusive experiences?

I probably wouldn't use it, but might if it's handled well.  I've removed SD+ as I wanted to try leon/leah and it trampled over that,

Like some others, I'd prefer DF's own slavery to be "better", or I'd like some of the less voluntary options (like the forced feeding you mentioned) available pre-slavery, or in endless mode.

[Pernitax]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Is this an exciting route? Or do people generally consider SD+ and DF exclusive experiences?

 

I also do not think those two work well together. DF is just better at what it does than SD (having a dominant, interactive companion you actually go adventuring with in between humiliating episodes). While there is a lot of fun stuff involved in SD, it's mostly just a slave roleplay experience that either falls apart or becomes extremely metagame-y when you try to integrate it into regular gameplay.
It's also extremely forgiving and easy compared to DF which might be a problem when trying to tie the two of them together.

[Pernitax]

5 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

Options are always good

My only concern is how does SD end? I don't know really. Most of my characters 'masters' meet an untimely end. If your master is essential is it possible to 'get out of it'? 

But of course this really is a problem for SD. 

SD ending is...weird. Once you get to a high enough level of slavery your character starts accepting his/her new role as a slave and then

Spoiler

suddenly your master lets you go.
There is a choice to join their faction as a member, or remain a slave or just go home. If you choose to remain a slave or join then you essentially just pacified an entire faction of enemies in the game which makes things feel a bit cheap.

If you are into the slavery roleplay it's still very enjoyable and the slow descent into a subservient role is quite well written but you need to be willing to do some metagaming otherwise it's very easy to either get rid of your master or pacify him/her completely.

[donttouchmethere]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Is this an exciting route? Or do people generally consider SD+ and DF exclusive experiences?

I like your idea!

A lot.

Think it's exciting too.

If you make it optional, no one has to fear anything anyways.

 

I like SD+ and DF and if they would marriage, it would help mostly SD to feel more restrictive.

Most of the time I have a DF follower while enslaved by SD+ anyways.

 

DF is a bit harsher than SD+, so SD+ would profit from the DF rules, if they work at the same time on the same NPC master.

A local SD+ enslavement to the DF follower (or any follower in the party), if you fail to pay the debts, is a great alternative to SS+ or the "hole" transfer.

 

The DF debt enslavement is even more secure than the SD enslavement.

Also a big part of the SD+ enslavement is all about collecting values and gold, that's something DF can do much better.

 

Woow! So much possibilities =D

[Lupine00]

If there's on interesting take-away from the posts about allowing DF to use SD+, it's that a lot of DF users don't have much experience of SD+.

 

I don't want to write an SD+ tutorial here, but the master personality types influence how you can escape. Some masters will not let you go. Some masters will sell you, others will not.

 

If I used it in DF, I would control the personality type to get a desired outcome, and not leave it randomly floating.

 

 

SD+ does have some issues, that is for sure. Some tasks are kind of broken. Some masters are incredibly dull, and master pathing rarely works usefully.

However, SD+ lets an external mod alter just about everything, so you can set it straight into "master followers you" mode, or you can do something else.

 

I see some tremendous untapped potential in SD+. It's a very complex mod. Over the years enormous effort has been put into solving its code issues. Like DF, it was continued (in a way). SD+ is not the original SD but did inherit its code base. Sadly, fixing the code has soaked up a lot of the effort, and not enough has been left over for solving the design issues. There's a story quest in there, but it isn't finished either. So I have some mixed feelings about SD+. It's in my game, and it doesn't break DF for me ... except in one way.

 

SD+ crawling controls break the forced crawl in DF. Totally.

DF sets your animations into crawl mode, and then SD+ will let you stand back up with a key-press, resetting your animations again.

SD+ crawling is also incompatible with the pet-suit, and other new DD items that set animation modes that SD+ knows or cares nothing about.

 

The answer to this is that - in the future - DF will need to move to SD+ style crawling controls. Sort of.

Then forced crawling will simply punish you for standing.

This will be far better anyway, and has several benefits.

Downside, I need to add a bunch of code to DF ... and make it compatible with SD+ too.

And fix the DD incompatibility issues, so you can't stand in a pet suit.

[legraf]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

The answer to this is that - in the future - DF will need to move to SD+ style crawling controls. Sort of.

Then forced crawling will simply punish you for standing.

This will be far better anyway, and has several benefits.

Downside, I need to add a bunch of code to DF ... and make it compatible with SD+ too.

And fix the DD incompatibility issues, so you can't stand in a pet suit.

That would be preferable, definitely.  And the only negative is ... more work for someone other than me.  Huzzah!  

[Pernitax]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If there's on interesting take-away from the posts about allowing DF to use SD+, it's that a lot of DF users don't have much experience of SD+.

 

I don't want to write an SD+ tutorial here, but the master personality types influence how you can escape. Some masters will not let you go. Some masters will sell you, others will not.

 

If I used it in DF, I would control the personality type to get a desired outcome, and not leave it randomly floating.

 

 

SD+ does have some issues, that is for sure. Some tasks are kind of broken. Some masters are incredibly dull, and master pathing rarely works usefully.

However, SD+ lets an external mod alter just about everything, so you can set it straight into "master followers you" mode, or you can do something else.

 

I think there are three main issues with SD+ that make it hard to get the most out of it.

First is the issue with how bad skyrim's AI is regarding pathfinding. For most hostile faction NPCs it's usually enough if you just run away towards the nearest thing that can kill them. And since (without mods) almost everything is leveled to the player in skyrim this is very easy, especially at low level. This is something DF integration could help, I suppose - or make it obsolete as long as you get picked by a master who is already a follower.

Second is the issue of how unimmersive pleasing your master is. The 'allowance' statistic drains every hour (even when you are doing exactly as you were ordered) but is raised every time you give your master anything. Unlike DF there is no well designed 'economy' and this hurts immersion.  You can essentially always keep your master pleased if you want to but never with 'slave actions'. Your best bet is giving him a bunch of cabbages you found in a nearby barrel. And if you want to play a reluctant, rebellious slave then instead of refusing orders your best bet is just standing still.
I have no idea how fixable this is with DFs debt system but I imagine it would take a lot of work.

The third and most problematic for me is the lack of interactivity. Unlike DF, SD+ never really feels like your master is interested in you. Almost all actions are initiated by the PC, and one of the most common early orders from your master is 'leave me alone now'. Since you are mostly forced to be around your  - likely stationary - master this can lead to a very dull experience with you crawling around in some bandit cave, listening to repeated NPC dialogue as you approach everyone hoping that someone will finally rape you to advance the plot.
And the being sold plotline is a nightmare (and not in a good way), very long, arduous and extremely prone to break.

 

That said, it would be amazing to see some of its features in DF. Having to kneel to address your follower, having to ask permission to eat, sleep, drink, having forced crawling, ZAP furniture scenes...:)

[Bound]

It's probably too late now, but I really think having DF "own" the Willpower/Resistance mechanics is a mistake. DF is a follower/relationship mod. Willpower/Resistance mechanics could be relevant to many other parts of the game in the complete absence of followers or without the devious follower mechanic. Ideally, as a fundamental character attribute it should be managed either as it's own mod (as was attempted by the well-intended but poorly adopted Devious Framework) or rolled into one of the existing core mods that already manage other character attributes, such as SLA or SexLab itself. Adding it to SexLab is probably a non-starter, but it seems putting it in SLAX would make a lot more sense than having it in DF.

 

Refactoring both mods to do that would almost certainly be a nightmare. But it would make for a better, more extensible foundation. A foundation which would be available for any mod with D/S themes or effects, especially if it included tracking NPCs as well.

[cailic]

23 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

Also, I'm thinking of adding some support for SD+, so you can set a weight slider for that and DF slavery, then when you get enslaved via debt, you have a configured chance to get enslaved via SD+ rather than DF. If you are released, you return to DF debt and deals. If you run away/escape, you get debt collectors. If you are sold on, DF debt is added to your SD+ debt and cleared.

 

 

Where SD+ is kind of boring, DF slavery seemed to have way to much going on.  I'm going by memory, since I haven't used DF slavery for a while.  I do know that I did not like the items equipped in the last version.  I did like the items equipped in the earlier versions.  Such as the transparent corset.  Those items were not ugly like a lot of the Devious Devices.  It's great people get into those things, but I prefer to keep it simple.  It's more lore friendly in my opinion.  No latex, no gloves, just iron slave boots, wrist cuffs and collar.  But, as I said I liked the transparent corset since it wasn't all that invasive.  I also saw an open straight jacket that I kinda liked somewhere.   But I only saw it once and I don't know from what mod.  But enough of that.

I seem recall so much happening with the DF slavery that my character was bouncing around, having different equipment being placed on her, sometimes during an "activity".  Yes, I think the switching of devices was crazy.  One set of devices when you are enslaved.  A few seconds later, a new one is added. 

As I said I'm going by memory.  I only endured one such enslavement before reverting to an earlier version.

 

Oh, In answer to your question, it would be nice to have the option of SD+, as long as it is not a dependency.

[legraf]

2 hours ago, Bound said:

Refactoring both mods to do that would almost certainly be a nightmare. But it would make for a better, more extensible foundation. A foundation which would be available for any mod with D/S themes or effects, especially if it included tracking NPCs as well.

Huh.  Despite my enthusiasm for the mod event approach in DF, I think Bound's right in every way.  I can easily see willpower taking off as a concept for other mods, ones likely to want SLAX as a common requirement but not DF.  Of course one could take the much easier route and just say "leave DF suspended in load order" to get that tracking, but a common framework would be wonderful.  And I don't think we can look to Devious Framework for this - I do have it in my LO, but I don't remember what was using it.  Not much.

 

It means converting all of DFs willpower changes to calls to SLAX though, and moving functions to SLAX (possibly including the sleep recovery, or one could add a "sleepRecovery(int hours)" event to SLAX).

[Reesewow]

16 minutes ago, legraf said:

I can easily see willpower taking off as a concept for other mods, ones likely to want SLAX as a common requirement but not DF. 

It would be cool if this happened, altho the very low adoption rate of some reasonably cool frameworks in the past is concerning (without much knowledge about what exactly they were trying to accomplish).

 

I think my suggestion for something like this would be to have willpower/resistance mechanics added to a core mod (like Lupine's version of SL Aroused) first, without having DF hook into them immediately.  That way DF could keep using its current system, and willpower/resistance mechanics could be made available to be adopted by other mods without requiring DF as a master.  If a user has no mods enabled using this alternate willpower system, they could hopefully disable it in the SL Aroused to reduce overhead.  

 

DF could always be converted to use a SL Aroused version of willpower at a later date, after enough adoption has happened for it to make sense.  Two parallel willpower systems in the meantime wouldn't be ideal, but converting DF immediately in the absence of any added value seems like a lot of effort that might be better spent elsewhere.

[Fish0]

On 10/19/2019 at 11:28 AM, Lupine00 said:

I will upload Fish0's patch file to the main page downloads list, if Fish0 is happy with that.

Go for it.