Devious Followers - Continued

[Lupine00]

17 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

One feature that's not in the mod is rewards.  Obviously this would have to be handled with care, so we don't make things too easy.  A reward trigger could be opening a boss chest or giving the DF a gift.  The follower is pleased.  Chance for a reward could be based on MCM base chance modified by mood, probably with a cap or other factor so the player can't exploit it by giving a gift when the DF's mood is maxed.  As I think about it, the value for gift giving should be inversely proportional to DF mood.  It's most useful to appease an angry follower.  And it should scale with the item value.

 

Occasional rewards would be good, but they shouldn't be cash or have cash value.

Could be devious devices with beneficial effects as well as negative ones.

Sex Slaves has a few such items.

Those aren't "repeatable" though.

 

A repeatable non-cash reward... Hard to come up with because DF has commoditized most services like unlocks, keys, etc.

 

 

To build on other things, maybe a repeatable reward could be "orgasms", and when the follower gives the player a 'special' orgasm, there's a mechanical benefit - like a lingering after-effect that gives a stat bonus?

[danta]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Technically, CBBE versions already exist, they just aren't in the mod. So I guess it's possible.

CBBE is polygons from the 1990s though  

 

Tracking down some new armors (with appropriate use rights) and adding them as custom armor packs you can just DL here would be nice.

There are a lot of slooty armors with generous use rights, so it's more about just getting to it than any other problem.

Well of Couse a man of my vast intellect would know that . But just for the idiots of lovers lab that need help.  Why don't you explain to the plebs how to add custom armours 

[Lupine00]

28 minutes ago, danta said:

Well of Couse a man of my vast intellect would know that . But just for the idiots of lovers lab that need help.  Why don't you explain to the plebs how to add custom armours 

When I update front page for new upload, I will add a custom armors guide.

Maybe also custom armor packs, so all you have to do is unzip and tick the box. I've been meaning to use Melodic armors in my own game, but somehow haven't got around to it.

[Ezioinu]

9 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Subtlety is wasted in Skyrim. It's hard enough to differentiate personalities one from the other when you have three, let alone make a continuum.

Sorry previously I misunderstood. Forget what I said about mood. I thought it would become designing different moods for different followers. If it's just one with dynamic, it's really a good idea and great improvement.

 

When I talk about 'under player's control'. What I'm trying to say is not means you can control in MCM. But have the control in the gameplay. Yes, different user could turn on/off according to their need. But if a system is turned on by player then soon gets turned off, It means the idea is very good but the system is not well designed. I personally don't like the skooma event but I didn't say anything about. Because it's a excellent idea for some user and well designed event. Why I don't like the gift system in other mods is it actually more like a 'would you like to turn on god mode' If PC like, he could gets no matter how many money he like in various ways. Then giving gift with no constraint will easily destroy the mood/debt system because it's too powerful.

 

But yes, you are right, PC need a way to restore follower's mood. How about add cool down for gifts? And gift is only for recovering the follower mood. Then there is no overlap between the paying debt and giving gifts and they have their own aspects. (Actually I don't think it's a good idea to prevent follower adding debt using gift because it's even simpler and quicker than selling them and paying debt).

 

I still think it's not a good idea that directly adding debts/punishing player for random events, like rainy, step on the trap. But with this mood system I personally it will be great if it's affect on followers mood. And mood affect on others. It will be also great that the effect on moods could be gradually restored/decrease to 0 or a small value. Some events like rainy, accepting small deal, step on traps, give small gifts, the effect could be restored in 1-2 days, hours or adjusted in MCM. Some others event like HP hot to 0/accept big deal, the effect could resist longer and gets some permanent value effect.

 

We could also gets more events to get a small effect of the increase/reduce about the moods, like we arrive a place with well sight such as beautiful lakes, top of high mountains to increase, drink/eat in inns to increase, frequently enter durgeons to decrease. It will be more real and gets more optional than simply giving gifts.

 

Another thing I try to express is it's not a good idea to force deals/adding debt to trap PC. We all agreed that if PC really want, he could easily get out of the trap. So it's kind of useless to force do that because PC already kind of want to. A good trap will attract PC to do that by his own will, low effect on the gameplay when PC need focus(like in durgeons, doing some thief quest) and hard to escape. Then what PC is thinking about will be how to get a fine/bad sleep in the trap and enjoy the gameplay. Instead of trying to escape, then step in again and again. It will hurt the PC patience.

 

As you said a post useless without sepecific. My personally idea for these is the follower will give PC some really good equipment for PC's level if PC behaves like a good slave and followers in good mood. Like a random good weapon/armour for warrior, some magic books for mage, or some good potions. Then PC will be happier as a slave and enjoy more kinky events. For harder escape. I personally think maybe it will greatly hurt followers mood when we PC buy out deals/slavement? Then PC could not clear all deals at once because after several removal the followers mood is temporarily bad and the next removal is much harder to do even impossible.

 

Edit: remove some rude expression. Sorry I must say I'm a rude guy. I really like and enjoy your work and really want to say my idea. But English is not my native language and my English expression is not good. When I look at my post even I think some of expression are rude. If I hurt anyone, I want to sorry for you.

[legraf]

23 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

There's lots of room to expand on this and build new content too.  Most of these are basically just 'games.'

 

-Gift giving Holidays:  The PC scurries around search for the perfect gift for her DF, a beautiful silver necklace set with a flawless emerald.  The DF gets her a dildo, then insists she go use it (medium willpower) and that the DF gets to watch (low willpower). 

-The DF buys the PC a gift! A sword? Bikini Armor? A padded bra of +1 breast size? 'try the bikini on +1 life' 'wear the bikini for 1 day, 2 days, 7 days +1 life, Stop wearing the bikini -3 lives' (Even if it's an actual beneficial item, it's still kind of hot to have the DF saying "no you use this sword")... maybe this one is too similar to deals?

 

 

I think there is so much room in between 'The PC is the leader and the DF is her paid servant' and "the DF is the master and the PC is a fetish bondage rape slave.'  Filling in this space is what I personally would like to see the most.

Darkwing's ideas for occasional games/events are amusing, and I agree they'd add visible, interesting complexity to the "middle game".  As always they'd need a choice, and a delay - the holiday would have to be set a week or two down the road so the player can choose to spend some time on it if they deign to, without interrupting things if they're in a deep dungeon.

 

DF gifts to the player would be a gentle introduction to "forced deals" - they do have some gameplay benefit, and they don't cause a rapid punishment cycle if the player ignores (or loses) the gift.  Just a little annoyance for the follower when (using a quest delay randomly set each time between 1 hour and 3 days) they "check" if the item is equipped. 

 

It does add some difficulty in coding - the player would have to be able to admit they lost the item or had it stolen and take a one-time hit to end the game, and presumably the DF's disappointment would only be triggered if some other item is equipped in the same slot (to prevent unreasonable demands that a weapon be equipped when illegal, or items worn when bathing, etc.).  It helps with the "game" of managing follower mood - if things are going poorly, "OK, I guess I will use your... lovely... sword instead of my Daedric Instachopper".

 

Of course the player can hotkey some inventory change to actually use other equipment whenever it matters, bypassing the point of the game, but again I think it's up to the player to RP this properly.  If they don't want to, this is of course optional.

 

Not a big deal, just an entertaining idea.

 

Oh, and though there wasn't much reply to your post, Lupine, the parallel non-deal "Skooma" quests are both excellent ideas, even though personally I don't play much with skooma.  Likewise milk/lactacid as an alternative, but skooma is easier on dependencies and broader in appeal I assume.

[Bane Master]

21 minutes ago, legraf said:

but skooma is easier on dependencies and broader in appeal I assume.

Yes please! 

[HexBolt8]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If there are player-visible mechanics, with concrete effects, I'm happy to add more or less complex simulation under it, if the simulation actually delivers value.

But for now, we're mainly talking about some skew on the following:

• when gold control starts and ends

...

 

Also willingness to let the player borrow more gold, and the amount allowed under gold control.  Not everyone uses gold control, but for those who do, it has a big effect on their lives.

 

This is a good start.  Work on follower "personality" should begin small, and proceed iteratively.  When we see mood and gifts in action, it should be more clear what other things should (or should not) be added.

 

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

To build on other things, maybe a repeatable reward could be "orgasms", and when the follower gives the player a 'special' orgasm, there's a mechanical benefit - like a lingering after-effect that gives a stat bonus?

I like this.  It has no cash value and doesn't need a device slot.  And it doesn't diminish the follower's control. 

[Sally Sinamon]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

Occasional rewards would be good, but they shouldn't be cash or have cash value.

Could be devious devices with beneficial effects as well as negative ones.

Sex Slaves has a few such items.

Those aren't "repeatable" though.

 

A repeatable non-cash reward... Hard to come up with because DF has commoditized most services like unlocks, keys, etc.

 

 

To build on other things, maybe a repeatable reward could be "orgasms", and when the follower gives the player a 'special' orgasm, there's a mechanical benefit - like a lingering after-effect that gives a stat bonus?

Rewards don't need to be bags of diamonds.

 

In the vanilla game, your spouse would offer you a home cooked meal once a day. It was pretty worthless until you added iNeed (or RND or miniNeeds or w/e) and a survival mod and were out in the middle of nowhere. All of a sudden it was a life saver.

 

So, with SLSO, a stamina regen potion could be really useful. One that lasts all day and sends your arousal through the roof becomes a bit of a kiss-curse reward. A really devious follower might even say "Drink this, darling - you'll feel better!" <glug glug> "Oh, but I'm feeling a bit jealous so every time you have sex today, I'll add X gold to your debt XXX".

Maybe that even leads into your weird potions?

 

Just a thought.

 

And yes, I would like to see a bit of romance between the PC and the DF (assuming you play by the rules, of course!). Probably most people wouldn't and that's cool but I can dream

 

Glad to see continuation of DF. Up to about v1.3 it was always in my load order. After that it went a bit away from me. Not a complaint - the mod was always awesome - it was just no longer quite my cup of tea. But it is a truly great mod that deserves a long life so kudos, Lupine, for carrying on the torch!

 

 

Edited to add:

SLSO does have a 'player allowed to orgasm' control. I don't think any mod has used that yet but DF does seem like the perfect candidate...

[HexBolt8]

I was thinking about the concept of gift giving holidays.  I like the concept, but I think the implementation would be messy.  There are many holidays in Elder Scrolls lore, though quite a few are regional (only celebrated in Hammerfell), and tying it to the calendar has the problem of clusters and droughts of holidays. 

 

I ended up coming back to the idea of a follower from time to time demanding a gift in recognition of the many things the follower does for you.  Or else.  This could be configured with a minimal and maximum interval between gifts, and configurable number of days to deliver.  It would probably need a minimum required value setting, so you can't get away with gifting a low value item like a plain silver ring.  

 

Basically it's another kind of forced deal, which or course could be toggled off.  If configured to be weekly or monthly, it could be like an anniversary of your time together.  In a sense it's just a gold sink, but I like that if the follower demands a certain type of item, you have to be on the lookout for that sort of thing.  And once you've acquired a nice gift, do you give it immediately to avoid risking losing it?  Or do you wait until the last day to delay starting the next demand?  If you get robbed of that lovely necklace on the last day, you'd be so screwed. 

[Bound]

One thing that worries me about all this excitement and discussion of mood and follower mechanics is that one of the core principles of this mod which made it unique is that it was focused on the whole idea of player choice. If the PC becomes enslaved it's through their own bad decisions maybe combined with bad luck, not follower coercion or deceit. Tempt the player into making one too many deals, yes. But leave that her choice. Force them on her, no. And don't cheat by changing the rules of a deal after it's been made. Save that stuff for after they are enslaved.

 

Don't get me wrong, I *love* the idea of a good follower dominant, and maybe this mod can grow to provide that. But please keep that as fleshing out the enslaved mode, not by corrupting the deal mode.

 

 

[HexBolt8]

2 hours ago, Bound said:

One thing that worries me about all this excitement and discussion of mood and follower mechanics is that one of the core principles of this mod which made it unique is that it was focused on the whole idea of player choice.

I agree with everything you said, and I know that Lupine00 is a strong believer in meaningful player choice.

 

I believe the only non-choice feature being talked about is forced gift giving.  Lupine00 has said that everything can be toggled, so it could be ignored.  Viewed one way, it's just another aspect of voluntary gift giving, just with rules imposed, so it wouldn't necessarily detract from the development of a choice-based feature.  Viewed another way, forced gift giving is an extension of paying the follower, and payment is definitely not optional (though one could probably set the amount to zero).  Paying the follower has always been an essential part of the mod.  Most real-life jobs offer pay plus other benefits, so it seems fair that a follower might require something in addition to mere pay.

[Monoman1]

Hi

Would it be possible to normalize follower debt against timescale? 

Having more time to gather more gold per hour with a lower timescale is a clear advantage and distorts the default settings of debt somewhat. I guess I could just increase the current debt setting but thought maybe I'd mention it anyway. 

[Lupine00]

33 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Would it be possible to normalize follower debt against timescale? 

Having more time to gather more gold per hour with a lower timescale is a clear advantage and distorts the default settings of debt somewhat. I guess I could just increase the current debt setting but thought maybe I'd mention it anyway. 

You mean to run the debt clock off real time instead of game time?

 

Or put another way, if I did that (as an option), do you see a problem?

 

 

I can see sense in it, but it hasn't been mentioned much in the history of DF...

My personal take is that if I changed my timescale, then I'd adjust my debt per day anyway.

 

 

In both DF and SLS, the player decides the debt obligations, so using odd ways to cheat seems self-defeating.

However, if a mod were messing with time-rate, then automatic compensation for it would be very useful.

Using PoP by any chance?

 

 

I've got obligations this weekend, but I want to try to get the basic willpower changes done.

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, Bound said:

If the PC becomes enslaved it's through their own bad decisions maybe combined with bad luck, not follower coercion or deceit.

I'm not sure I get why you're so worried about that.

 

If any features get added, I'd say they will not do that. But even if something was added to do that, and was even intended to do it, it would be optional.

[Monoman1]

14 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

You mean to run the debt clock off real time instead of game time?

Well just to compensate the debt calculation for timescale. Default is 20 so (Usual debt * (20 / Current Timescale))

Something like that. That way my generous timescale of 5 means paying four times as much debt. 

 

My aim in changing timescale isn't to cheat the system. I just prefer longer day/night cycles instead of the sun hurtling around me. It has advantages like: MME - not stopping to get milked every 5 mins, Needs mods - not stopping to eat, drink every 5 mins, decreases script load from mods that run hourly etc. 

I can see how it might complicate things with Pop and dynamic timescale but it still seems fair... sort of. If Pop increases timescale to 120 then you pay less debt as you had less time to make the gold in anyway. 

 

My character is now level 17 and she hasn't had to take a single deal so far. You can see how this interferes with DFs mechanics and it's aim of trying to enslave the player. But it IS a delicate balance I'll admit. 

[Lupine00]

6 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Something like that. That way my generous timescale of 5 means paying four times as much debt. 

In your case, just multiplying the debt factors by four would have a similar effect. If you want the debt more evenly spaced, you could make it update debt more often.

 

Clearly, if I add an option to allow real-time debt, then you still have to adjust the debt amount, but it will - by default - be applied every 18 (real) minutes or something like that (if the normal debt update is per six game hours).

[Monoman1]

45 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

In your case, just multiplying the debt factors by four would have a similar effect. If you want the debt more evenly spaced, you could make it update debt more often.

True but I'll get absolutely crucified when Pop does push up that timescale then. 

My intention was to level to playing field and make the mod 'work the same' for everyone, no matter what your timescale is, out of the box but whatever you think is best. 

 

Edit: btw, I didn't mean to run the debt system off of real time but just to compensate the debt calculation itself for timescale. Which is sort of the same thing but not exactly. 

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

Which is sort of the same thing but not exactly. 

For it to work as a compensator scale, it would have to sample frequently, and secretly accumulate micro-debt, otherwise mods that flip you in and out of fast time rates would be highly sample-time dependent.

 

OTOH, with real-time rates, there is always one consistent rate, and it's tied to player perception, not anything to do with game time at all.

 

So I think that sums up the difference for people.

 

The real-time version is less trouble than a compensator scale. I think. Will see when I dig through the functions, which I am cleaning up one by one in the order the appear in the code.

[Bound]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I'm not sure I get why you're so worried about that.

 

If any features get added, I'd say they will not do that. But even if something was added to do that, and was even intended to do it, it would be optional.

I trust you to defend this core feature of the mod, you have in the past, even when Lozeak might have fudged it a bit. My intent was merely to try to steer the conversation a bit away from it's trajectory towards dominant followers and back towards tricky situations that could tempt the player to take unwise risks with kinky consequences.

 

That said I can't wait for you to get past the incredibly valuable and much appreciated grunt work of cleaning up the bugs here so you can finish up your dreams for SLAX and SLD and that as yet unacronymed nameless dominant follower Mod that keeps trying to get out!

 

Oh, and I love the ideas for making a persistent follower personality to play against a transient and hopefully renamed and reworked and expanded "lives" mechanic!

 

And restoring the willpower mechanic to it's past glory and fixing and improving and expanding it.

 

And ... erm, you have an awful lot on your plate, need some Skhooma to help with that?

 

 

[Naps-On-Dirt]

I'm in a game where DF has totally ceased to show up in dialogue with  my follower.  The MCM is still there and I try to reset it and use the debug dialogue to force an NPC to be your DF but the topic never shows up.  Is there any fix to this or is it time for a new game?  

[stobor]

DF modular deals stop working if you use the Pause/Resume feature in the Debug menu.  They still show up in the MCM (but the details of the deal are replaced by the current Resistance stat), but you can violate the deal to your heart's content, and the DF will never notice.

 

The older non-modular deals continue to work through a Pause/Resume cycle.

[Lupine00]

6 hours ago, Naps-On-Dirt said:

I'm in a game where DF has totally ceased to show up in dialogue with  my follower.  The MCM is still there and I try to reset it and use the debug dialogue to force an NPC to be your DF but the topic never shows up.  Is there any fix to this or is it time for a new game?  

Are you using my version?

If you have an older DF, and you lose dialog, 99% certain you are stuck in a scene. Ending the scene will cure it. That can be awkward, as if changing cell doesn't clear it, you need to find what mod started it and reset it. Rape mods are usually to blame. SL Adventures, HH or Sexlab Approach for example. SLAdv will tell you if its stuck in its MCM.

 

If you have my update, then you should see some odd dialog about "Am I stuck in a scene" if you are stuck in a scene.

 

If you see nothing like that, and you just have no dialog for DF, you should investigate your _DFlow quest stage. It should be between 10 and 100 normally. If it's a high value, you're in some game. If it's 0, DF stopped normally. 

[Naps-On-Dirt]

50 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

If you see nothing like that, and you just have no dialog for DF, you should investigate your _DFlow quest stage. It should be between 10 and 100 normally. If it's a high value, you're in some game. If it's 0, DF stopped normally.

It is 0, is there a way to start it up again?

[Lupine00]

42 minutes ago, Naps-On-Dirt said:

It is 0, is there a way to start it up again?

Remove your current followers, if you have any.

 

Recruit a new follower. They should become devious.

If they don't. Try the debug menu option to force them to be devious.

The debug menu option should restart the quest if it got stopped.

 

Check that is isn't paused in the Debug menu.

You might want to try pause and unpause, as that might unstick some things if you had problems - or might break stuff worse  

I haven't reviewed that function yet, and from recent reports, it's broken for modular deals, so I need to look at it.

 

In extremis, you can try doing a console reset on the _DFlow quest, as that might clear up some oddities.

 

 

For information sake, a stage 0 in _DFlow means that DF is not started. It's normal to see this if you have no DF.

It should transition to 10 if you start up normally.

 

Sometimes it fails to start due to a crash during startup. This is usually due to a missing dependency - some early 2.0X versions had this issue.

I believe such dependencies were removed, but I have yet to reivew that properly either.

 

I haven't done any code this week, and have to clean up some stuff on my dev machine before I can more forward, but I want to get an update of some sort out for DF this weekend.

[Krynn]

Hi
I have a question please.
What should that be good for, if I ask my companion if she has any devices?
If I choose the bra, then I get a belt.
and the colors or what kind you want is random, right?

I also have a mistake in the override folder, where I get a collar written by Lozaek.