Devious Followers - Continued

[ObedientCat]

8 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I'm not quite clear on what you're saying. Does it show up in the SexLab Animation Loader (SLAL) MCM or not?

 

If it doesn't show up, you probably haven't installed it after all.

 

What is unclear above is that you say "SexLab toggle animations menu", but that's not where you enable SLAL pack animations; you would enable them in SLAL. Did you mean SLAL? Or are you, in fact, not using SLAL at all, in which case ... there's your problem.

Thank you, I am most assuredly missing the SexLab Animation Loader - I must have missed that requirement somewhere.

Edit: Confirmed to be fixed now, thank you! I cannot see SexLab Animation Loader mentioned anywhere, perhaps it should be added to the documentation.

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, Tempy said:

Have you considered using the Virgin state in your dialogs or even mod mechanic?

No. Because it would add game load and maintenance complexity for a feature that most players would probably never even see, or only see for about half an hour in their 100-hour game.

 

It's the sort of thing you probably expect a reputation or fame mod to support, but it's far too rare a state to consider in DF.

 

OK, there are players who fit a quest belt right at the start of their game, but they are also a bit of a minority.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, ObedientCat said:

Edit: Confirmed to be fixed now, thank you! I cannot see SexLab Animation Loader mentioned anywhere, perhaps it should be added to the documentation.

I guess you could say that.

It's so universal, it never even occurred to me.

 

Because LL tells everyone there's a new version every time I update the front page, I won't fix that right away.

[ObedientCat]

5 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I guess you could say that.

It's so universal, it never even occurred to me.

 

Because LL tells everyone there's a new version every time I update the front page, I won't fix that right away.

Thank you! Hopefully my post will contain all the keywords to let other noobs find the solution easier too.

[Balgin]

This might sound like a daft idea (and nobody seems to have suggested it before) but how about the possibility of a Vampire being allowed to feed on their Devious Follower in exchange for debt? It's not something most devious followers would probably agree to so it would have to be a lot of debt (probably with a willpower hit as well for stooping to feeding from a willing follower). Perhaps it would be more like an alternate version of the weird potion quest (especially if the follower extracted the blood first then laced it with drugs for some kind of submissive drug addicted vampiric follower).

[Lupine00]

19 minutes ago, Balgin said:

This might sound like a daft idea (and nobody seems to have suggested it before) but how about the possibility of a Vampire being allowed to feed on their Devious Follower in exchange for debt? It's not something most devious followers would probably agree to so it would have to be a lot of debt (probably with a willpower hit as well for stooping to feeding from a willing follower). Perhaps it would be more like an alternate version of the weird potion quest (especially if the follower extracted the blood first then laced it with drugs for some kind of submissive drug addicted vampiric follower).

I can imagine some feature to sell you blood potions would be reasonable.

And those may or may not contain some awful trap.

[Balgin]

11 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I can imagine some feature to sell you blood potions would be reasonable.

And those may or may not contain some awful trap.

Perhaps the chance of a trap could depend on how heavily in debt you are. Or the price could depend on your debt level in addition to adding debt. There's quite a few options to consider really.

[Lupine00]

25 minutes ago, Balgin said:

Perhaps the chance of a trap could depend on how heavily in debt you are. Or the price could depend on your debt level in addition to adding debt. There's quite a few options to consider really.

Probably the former, so taking deals allows you to avoid it.

[Yanme]

I encountered a bug in DF 2.12, which was not present in 2.10 ( skipped a version). Sorry if the bug was already posted.

I am using a setup with 2 modular deals and exactly 4 T1/T2 rules and 2 T3 rules (so the absolute minimum of rules possible for two modular deals). This worked fine in DF 2.10. However, since then the CheckDeals function in the DealController was changed and I need either 5 T1/T2 rules or 3 T3 rules.

 

When CheckDeals is run when you disable a rule, it checks for the minimum number of rules per tier + 1, as the check runs before the deactivation of the rule. However, this is done for both T1/2 and T3 rules always (regardless of which kind of rule you disable). That means, in my example with 2 modular deals, when when I have 4 T1/T2 rules, I cannot remove anymore T3 rules regardless of how many I have (and vice versa).

 

Anyways, thank you for your great work, I really love the mod.

[blarghxxx]

So I've been playing with DF and Survival for some time now and I found one thing that could use an improvement, but I don't know if it's doable and if this is even the right place for this suggestions. And this is meant to be just a suggestions, no criticism or anything negative intended.
So Survival adds negative outcomes to Simply Knock, one of which is Simple Slavery. And herein lies my problem. When I get sent to simple slavery it seems like I'm instantly free from my DF and even get my outstanding credit back. It would be absolutely awesome, if there was some kind of integration between DF and Simple Slavery. There could be several scenarios:

• DF takes part in the auction and buys you back, of course adding the price to your debt
• If you get sold to someone else and manage to get free, DF tracks you down, charges you for the time and punishes you
• Maybe DF could buy/free you from new owner
• most basic integration could just be a dialog stating the the owner of the house bought you from your DF and you get sent to the auction _without_ any of your possessions (apart from quest items). To expand this, possessions could be bought back/stolen from the homeowner

There's probably some potential in this, but I have absolutely no idea if it is at all possible and what kind if effort would be needed to do this. 

Sadly this makes Simply Knock basically just a cheat for a free bed right now, as I also don't use the SD outcome (maybe I just don't get SD Slavery, but it seems pretty boring to me).

 

Anyway just an idea for the future and not even sure if it would need to be done in DF, Simple Slavery or Survival.

Thanks for your awesome work on this mod!

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, blarghxxx said:

It would be absolutely awesome, if there was some kind of integration between DF and Simple Slavery. There could be several scenarios:

I know what you mean... I always thought it was strange that Lozeak made changes to SS but didn't address this.

 

At a guess, his thinking was that slavery outcomes are all bad, and the SS outcome was intended to be an escape from an overwhelming mountain of devices and debt.

 

And that is fine... Unless the person who buys you is your existing DF, in which case it seems a bit odd.

 

Part of the problem here is that it's the SLS Simply Knock scenario, and the follower should be around and preventing the theft.

 

What if it wasn't Simply Knock in SLS?

2 hours ago, blarghxxx said:

• DF takes part in the auction and buys you back, of course adding the price to your debt
• If you get sold to someone else and manage to get free, DF tracks you down, charges you for the time and punishes you
• Maybe DF could buy/free you from new owner
• most basic integration could just be a dialog stating the the owner of the house bought you from your DF and you get sent to the auction _without_ any of your possessions (apart from quest items). To expand this, possessions could be bought back/stolen from the homeowner

Let's number these 1, 2, 3, 4 for discussion purposes.

 

Bear in mind, I'm only half-thinking of the SLS situation here, which is a bit of an outlier.

 

1) If your DF is set as your DF SS buyer, this will happen without the debt ... adding the debt, or at least doing something sensible about it is definitely possible.

2) This is more problematic. It could well be interrupting a quest and creating a serious conflict. However, if you ever take on a different DF, the old one could show up with a grievance... You might end up staying with the new DF but with all your old debts piled on.

3) Hard to explain. Maybe they could steal you? The problems are as with (2) above.

4) See thoughts on how SLS should not steal DFs above. It makes little sense for the homeowner to buy you and then sell you again immediately.

 

 

I'll raise the main issue with Monoman, as that needs a remedy in SLS.

I think the answer is that you shouldn't be enslaved by random NPCs while you have a DF.

 

1) can be dealt with, as its internal to DF; but it shouldn't arise if the SLS issue is resolved.

More generally, scenarios 2 and 3 could be handled for SD+, so as soon as you are released, your DF shows up to claim you. Maybe also for Treasure Hunter Whore...

Other mods that people realistically use...? CD is not supported any longer, and resolving for Devious Cidhna might be a bit complicated, as there are various scenarios.

Anything involving a Delzaron mod is probably better left alone.

I'm not sure if DCL slavery is even a thing any longer. I'm not convinced it's a feature worth using at the moment. Maybe next DCL release?

[shiagwen]

what happens to pc when enslaved except crawl on all four ?

 

[valcon767]

just an fyi

Submissive Lola has been updated (Submissive Lola: The Resubmission https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/13564-submissive-lola-the-resubmission/)

it does now require Devious Devices, and (in my very limited testing, just getting it to start and trying 2 events from it total) as far as i can tell it does

play nice with DFC, but there is a quirk starting its main quest.  more info in the Submissive Lola Resubmission support thread.

 

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, valcon767 said:

Submissive Lola has been updated (Submissive Lola: The Resubmission https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/13564-submissive-lola-the-resubmission/)

it does now require Devious Devices, and (in my very limited testing, just getting it to start and trying 2 events from it total) as far as i can tell it does

play nice with DFC, but there is a quirk starting its main quest.  more info in the Submissive Lola Resubmission support thread.

While I want to try it, I sort of don't have time, and it is already hard enough to figure out what is causing events in my game sometimes.

 

I think I would want to try it without DF first. Also, my guess is that mixing it with ToH and DF together is not a good idea.

Maybe if you aren't using SLS, SW, etc... But with those things already in place, adding more sex and submission is madness; it's already overwhelming.

[drunken toad]

For some reason I can't get Stenvar to follow me. Other followers and hirelings work fine though. 

After trying to give Stenvar the 500g, he makes a comment "Onward something" but there is no sound and the dialogue menu stays open.

 

Things I've tried

 

I ran the game without DF and he followed me like he's supposed to. NFF was still active.

 

I tried running the game with DF and no follower framework and the problem came back.

 

I ran them both together trying different install options from NFF, but he still wouldn't follow me.

 

Then I made a new profile in MO with a minimal install, DF was about the only mod active. He still refused to finish dialogue/follow.

 

All these tests were done on a new game. Is anyone else experiencing this? 

Rest of the mod works fine as far as I can tell.

 

 

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, drunken toad said:

All these tests were done on a new game. Is anyone else experiencing this? 

Rest of the mod works fine as far as I can tell.

I haven't tested Stenvar specifically.

 

As each hireling has some unique dialog, it's possible he has a specific bug.

 

This kind of report is useful, as people have mentioned hireling issues, but not specific hirelings.

Then, I'd test Jenassa or something, they would be fine.

[Zaflis]

After debt came to enslavement level and i was running on Whiterun street, follower put "Iron Prisoner Chains" on. Then she complains i'm not wearing town collar, but i can't put it on because of the chains.

 

She also gave me mittens but isn't attempting to put them on. Maybe because i have rubber gloves?

 

Edit: Oh i see there's a dialog about it when asking about removing devices, to take gloves off.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Zaflis said:

follower put "Iron Prisoner Chains" on. Then she complains i'm not wearing town collar, but i can't put it on because of the chains.

That probably wants looking at. Follower adds chains when you are in dungeons and they want to go home.

They should not complain about the collar if the chains are worn.

 

They could remove the chains and fit the collar when you get to civilization, but I'm not sure to what extent the follower should just be changing your devices around.

Probably, they should, as they are able to remove clothes, or add bindings due to deals. In enslavement, it's not a surprise if they can do more.

 

I'm not sure I'm even in love with them putting the chains on in dungeons in the first place. It can feel quite random.

[Lupine00]

I sort of forgot that I hadn't uploaded 2.12.2 properly to the front page.

So I fixed that. 

 

There's also a small fix for the spanking cooldown, which was broken when the slider was added in 2.12.1, and is fixed again now, so if you have the "old" 2.12.2 (beta), you should update to get corrected spanking cooldowns.

 

Current work in progress has moved on, and I can't push those changes to a new version yet.

New modular deals coming as noted in the Roadmap, and some minor bug fixes, including wording and functionality details for pony game.

[valcon767]

finally got the Jarl mini game to trigger consistently, played thru it before going back to save made just prior to using debug to trigger it.

as i used the debug to adjust both debt and resistance i prefer to not save those manual changes and if they occur i deal with them then.

 

it can be rough to progress it depending on follower mod used (if any) as there is a dialogue that has to trigger which requires your DF to be extremely close

to the Jarl.  the dialogue is not an instant trigger dialogue, it can take some time to trigger which means your follower may have to stay close to the Jarl for a while.

the follower i have currently tends to hang back at a distance (combat archer/ranger type) more than most so was not able to do at Whiterun or Solitude,  

just could not get follower close enough for long enough to trigger the dialogue.

 

for those interested the preconditions are listed in the spoiler.  you need to meet ALL the conditions for it to trigger.

debt over half way to enslave level

willpower below 6

be in correct location (keyword LocTypeCast)

must have 5 deals made (more is probably acceptable providing no device conflicts prevent it) the deals is total deals made so a stage 3 and a stage 2 does = 5 deals

can occur on day 8 after hiring a DF

must have a devious collar equipped and NO chastity gear (piercings, corset, arm and leg cuffs are all ok though)

 

if you do meet the requirements and want to prevent it from triggering the 3 easiest methods to prevent it (that i know of) are

1 - remove devious collar

2 - wear a chastity device (belt is safest)

3 - have total number of deals currently running at less than 5 (buy your way out of some if needed)

 

 

[Zaflis]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I'm not sure I'm even in love with them putting the chains on in dungeons in the first place. It can feel quite random.

My experience was only for when she put them on in town. It's done by the gate quite aggressively. There's almost no time to put on boots, collar and mittens and it should be done before fast traveling to a town.

 

As for why i always recommend modders to avoid all kinds of chains and HDT restraints in general, i still had chains on from town when i entered a dungeon. She doesn't auto-remove them in combat or in dangerous places, i learned that later... you do it by asking. But what happened soon after entering was the chains started glitching and i somehow clipped through the floor to the last room. But DF has taken the path to favor chains in all things, such as plugs.

 

This might be bug too but i don't know, i have plug-signs disabled in MCM but when i asked to be given a new plug she gave one with sign.

[Lupine00]

12 hours ago, Zaflis said:

There's almost no time to put on boots, collar and mittens and it should be done before fast traveling to a town.

Fast travelling?

What's that?

 

I've had it off for so long that even if it was turned on I probably wouldn't use it. So I don't test fast-travel scenarios...

 

I don't think it's really a fast-travel issue. It sounds like it can occur just as easily without that. It doesn't matter how you cross the cell boundary, the problem is that conflicting conditions are enforced in one cell to the next cell entered, requiring you to respond instantly. It's a flaw in the design of the mechanics.

 

The follower needs to remember that they decided to put you in chains, and act accordingly, regardless of location. On return to an inn or similar, they should swap your items back to mittens/collar/boots and reset their internal state. This can be fixed, it just needs me to do it  and it won't matter whether you fast travel or not.

 

12 hours ago, Zaflis said:

But DF has taken the path to favor chains in all things, such as plugs.

That wouldn't have been my choice, but it seems like a lot of mods do it (SLAV for example) and SLS did it by default though I'm not sure it was intended.

 

12 hours ago, Zaflis said:

This might be bug too but i don't know, i have plug-signs disabled in MCM but when i asked to be given a new plug she gave one with sign.

Probably not a bug. It stops the sign being used for the whore deal. So if you got it in another situation, it would not be a bug.

That option simply excludes one version of the whore deal, but does not disable signs in general, nor does it claim to.

 

The difference is that if you get a plug with a chain in some other situation, you can swap it for one you prefer, but for the deal, it requires the plug with chain and sign, unless you disable that possibility via the MCM.

 

If you want to disable the chains generally, disable them in the LDC json. That should work for everything but the whore-deal sign,  and the prisoner chains / chains of debt (basically the same thing).

 

 

HDT chain glitching seems like it could not possibly change the player's collision and cause you to glitch through floors. I've never seen anything like that.

It is more likely to be caused by something else, such as a ragdoll, animation overrides, or some crazy mod like Devious Framework jerking the player about and ragdolling at the same time.

HDT chain glitching can certainly cause rendering problems though, and even CTD your game, but I don't believe HDT can impact the player's normal collision,; that comes from a straightforward collision box, and some foot IK if enabled. HDT on outfits is a purely visual effect, and larger scale physics that move the player collision box has to be applied explicitly, or as a result of combat or effects.

 

Personally, I have more problems with DD items that cause the player belly to constantly jitter than with chains; typically associated with belts of many kinds. I don't see it on the harness but do see it on corset + belt combos. (If anyone can suggest some XML files, or other approach, that would stop this, I'd be happy). In contrast, my chains function smoothly and reliably nearly all of the time.

 

 

I suggest you raise DD HDT issues on the DD forum, because it's ultimately DD that is distributing dozens of assets that have systemic problems.

Spoiler

If there are fixes or patches (for HDT generally) that would help players not have these bad HDT experiences, DD is not promoting or disseminating them. 

 

Instead, it appears that DD distributes a number of problematic items that are presented in a superficial way as working perfectly, when they are not.

 

DD does not (for example) offer a global option to replace all HDT items with non-HDT equivalents. While the equivalents might not look as good, a lot of players would choose them, I think. While that might require replacing some long chains with short, stubby, ones, I could live with that.

 

DD places an awkward burden on mod-developers to be careful not to use the many DD items that have problems that include, but go beyond, HDT ... set up with bad slotting, unsatisfactory bodyslide data, poorly considered encumbrance values, or using HDT in ways that are almost always problematic.

 

Good luck with raising that problem on the forum.

 

Despite my posting object IDs and specific problems, none were ever fixed, and there is no way to know if the posts were even read, let alone recorded as bugs to fix. Some modders, apparently, get so many hundreds of forum posts and PMs every day that they just don't have time to acknowledge bug reports with a simple one-line reply, or to keep a list of bugs they intend to fix in a public place, or say anything about what they're working on except in a pay-gated patreon post. I would fix these things myself, but as is well known, that is prohibited by the DD license: you may derive, but you may not patch. When asked if my patches would even be considered ... silence ... and complaints about the silence were followed by absurd claims that everyone was responded to, combined with self-contradictory remarks that there was no time or need to respond, and buttressed by the assertion that any contributions might be considered, maybe, if they feel like it and they're in a good mood, and the wind is blowing the right way, which to me reads as "don't bother, it will be ignored." I may be wrong on that inference, and others may have had a wonderful experience, but you have to look at who those people are.

 

Decisions to embed HDT items into DF in various ways were made by the original author, and Lozeak mostly "fixed" that by the addition of the LDC config.

Some other items, such as chains of debt, are deeply embedded into the fabric of the mod, hardwired into dozens of fragment properties, and even mentioned in dialogs.

Personally, I've had those items make my game look bad, but never cause game-breaking problems, so I have not prioritized the task of removing them.

There are probably bigger problems to fix, such as the item conflicts you identified.

[Balgin]

21 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Fast travelling?

What's that?

Fast travel is cheating. It's one thing if you're paying for a Silt Strider ride or if some old guy in a wagon outside Whiterun is taking you somewhere for money but just instantly teleporting without crossing the intervening space because some stupid tooltip told you to just magically teleport to Weynon Priory. That's straight up cheating right there.

 

How did you manage to turn it off? I just avoid using it or carry so much stuff it's not an option anyway but is there w ay to actually disable it in the options menu that I've been overlooking or something?

[gravediggers240]

99% certain there's a simple mod that disables the feature, I'd have to check (which I will do now)

 

[gravediggers240]

Bam, here's one from 2016. I'd bet money there's countless others as well.
https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/75102/?