Devious Followers - Continued

[Darkwing241]

4 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

The DF wants you to be capable, and wants your gold.  Isn't it better to let the DF help you?  Of course it is.  

I actually don't know if I agree with this.  I think it's realistic for a follower, a follower wants you capable and wants to get paid.  A devious follower isn't really going for that though, they still want money, after all everyone does, but I think what they really want is a slave.

 

Everything the DF does is to make you less capable not more capable.  You know... the bondage... If the DF makes you less capable they get to punish you more.  They wrap all that up lies and trickery, the biggest lie of all being that they want you to succeed.

 

I do like the training idea though, I just think it should be pointed at a different target. What if the goal of the training was for it to be a trap full of gaslighting, bimbofication and heal-sluttery.   Narrative wise there are a lot of ways you could approach this and there are a ton of kinks you could tie in.

 

--A Less Helpful Training Deal--

 

-Stage x, Pointless training: The DF has you train in skills you don't use in order to drive up your level, the DF's pay andthe overall difficulty of the game, since in skyrim enemies spawn according to your level. (The DF distracts you from what you really should be focusing on you and moves your focus to trivial and useless things)

 

"I've heard some really great things about cross training and a diverse skill set, I think you could be a lot more effective if instead of just swinging that sword all the time and spend some time reading up on herb illusion magic"

 

"I know you wear heavy armor and fight with a Hammer, but I think some training in sneaking and acrobatics would make your shoulders look less man-ish"

 

-Stage x, Support role training: The DF has you train in skills specifically oriented toward making the DF the star of the show.  This could be training in restoration, alchemy, and transmutation.  Maybe even better is if it grants specific buff to you and the follower 

 

"you have received training on how to squire for a brave knight"  your attacks are 5% weaker and your followers attacks are 20% stronger"

 

"you have learned to put another needs and health before your own" -20% PC health +50% DF health

 

Or maybe the training grants you "spells" or shouts that revolve around empowering your follower.

 

"Cheer for your hero" activated, blocks the PC from making physical attacks but increases the followers attack speed and damage

 

"Sacrifice your body"  when your follower would be downed or is down, lose x% of your hp, mana and stamina and revive the follower

 

-Stage x, Deportment training: The DF has you train in speech or some other social skill.  Maybe it unlocks special dialogue options with NPCs?

 

"Look it's important that you understand your role in the party. Your main job is to sweet talk the townsfolk, it's important you focus on that"

 

Another option would be to not use gold at all (there is supposed to be a playable "game" of managing your gold, and deals are supposed to be a useable tool, not a gold drain).  Maybe you pay for your training with other stats and skill.  Kind of like a enforced partial respecs, where the DF manipulates your focus to make you better fit their vision. -5 one handed/+5speech +10mana/-10stamina

 

"you know you spend went far too much time at night restringing your bow, just leave the old string on and spend that time in prayer.  If I'm to be seen in public with you I want to know you are pure of heart, not obsessed with fighting" (-10 archery + 10 restoration"

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

What if the goal of the training was for it to be a trap full of gaslighting, bimbofication and heal-sluttery.

That sounds like DF alright.

 

There are tons of ideas that the "training" theme throws up, from Hexbolt's scenario, to Darkwing's, and beyond.

 

 

But in terms of implementation, it has to fit somewhere in "new deals", "follower quests", or "follower archetypes".

 

The proposals so far sort of split across all these things, but due to that it's less easy to deliver than a standalone deal, unless actually reduced to a standalone deal.

 

As mentioned, deals in DF are not a cash sink, they are a consequence of failing to meet cash targets.

You can configure deals to deliver a net benefit in cash, or a net cost, or be neutral. It's up to you.

Spoiler

 

Personally, I configure deals to return a net benefit, as this encourages taking the deals, and means that when you're forced to take a lot of them, it's self-balancing to an extent - it helps you get out of your cash-shortfall trap. If you configure the reverse, it's a self-reinforcing trap.

 

e.g. I set my deals up to provide say, 1400 debt relief, and cost 800 to buy out, but with a 7 day period. I come out ahead, slightly, but I'm going to have that deal for at least a week unless I have a large excess of cash.

 

You could set your deals up to deliver 1200 debt relief with 2000 buyout, and a 14 day period. That's perfect if you want to accumulate more and more deals.

 

The "problem" I have with deal value configuration right now is that it doesn't scale well with level, and it can't. There's no way what values are right for a given game.

If you were playing at level 20 with no cash sinks, you'd probably be able to make a daily payment of 4000 without much trouble. That might match an enslavement debt of 20,000, and a deal value of 4000.

 

From that, you can see I pitch my deal value around my daily payment rate, but others might set up with a completely different scale.

 

Darkwing's suggestion is mechanics heavy. Definitely possible, but changing the mechanics of how you play the game and wiring it into DF. I think that's probably going to be a bit divisive. It fits great with the "boss follower" scenario and my most common preferred style, so I like it. It would just need to be counterbalanced by alternative options for players who don't like that sort of thing.

 

If implemented as a deal, it's along the lines of the "introduction deal" that you take, and keep, because it's an easy way to handle follower boredom and boredom driven deal targets. 

 

It would be weird to buy out of that deal at a much later date, but not totally unreasonable.

 

 

For "keeper" deals, it might make sense for them to have a variant buyout mechanic, where the cost increases the longer you keep them, up to some tolerable limit.

e.g.

The deal buyout decreases until the duration is up.

Then, the buyout cost is scaled for every multiple of the duration you keep them after that, so the cost goes up, week by week, until it hits the configured limit (say 15,000).

 

You could consider that a "retraining" cost, and put some appropriate dialog around it.

 

Does mean that once you buy those deals, you are stuck with your current follower.

I guess that naturally leads to the a "follower transfer" deal, where your follower trades you off to a different DF, all deals and debt retained, and you buy out of the deal to transfer back.

 

Which itself leads to the idea of a stageless modular deal that operates to manage as many stageless deals as you want to take. Basically, an options set. They could be archetype linked, or unlocked by level, or time with the follower, or other deals, or reaching a skill threshold - any mechanic at all - but once open you would then "ask" for them via dialog, choosing a specific path. Maybe there is no reward for buying into them other than having a deal to apply against boredom? 

 

e.g.

 

"You're a better fighter than me. I'd like to learn to support you better." => takes restoration Bimbo deal

"I'm not smart, but I'm strong. Stay behind me in combat." => take a dumb tank deal

 

You can bet whatever you take, the follower gets the most benefit, but you get to choose your path, not be forced down it.

 

Having done the work on modular deals for 2.11, I can see how to make more use of some of the mechanics there to create possibilities.

 

I have a reasonable list of new modular deals that will only require a couple of bits of "real" work to implement, the rest being boilerplate, and which will add a bunch of new ways to get into serious trouble with your earning ability.

 

 

Another way of dealing with training and option-style deals is to bind them up with some sort of gambling game.

[Buridan]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Personally, I configure deals to return a net benefit, as this encourages taking the deals, and means that when you're forced to take a lot of them, it's self-balancing to an extent - it helps you get out of your cash-shortfall trap. If you configure the reverse, it's a self-reinforcing trap.

 

e.g. I set my deals up to provide say, 1400 debt relief, and cost 800 to buy out, but with a 7 day period. I come out ahead, slightly, but I'm going to have that deal for at least a week unless I have a large excess of cash.

Deals also reduce daily debt payment by a large percentage when they're active though, right? So even if the buyout cost was higher than the initial debt relief, you tend to still come out ahead over the course of say seven days.

 

Maybe deal debt relief and buyout should also have the option to automatically scale by level like with daily payments? It works well enough there.

[Lupine00]

24 minutes ago, Buridan said:

Deals also reduce daily debt payment by a large percentage when they're active though, right?

The percentage is up to you. It could be zero. It could be large. There's also a configurable cap on the total reduction.

 

As the relief is a percentage of the usual debt, there is no need to scale it by level.

If the debt is level scaled, then the relief is also.

[Buridan]

Sorry, I was being imprecise with the terms there. I mean the upfront reduction in your debt when you take a deal. Like you note, taking 1000 off your debt is a big deal at level 1... less of a big deal at level 20.

7 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

The percentage is up to you. It could be zero. It could be large. There's also a configurable cap on the total reduction.

Ah, I thought I must have missed something. Where is the discount percentage of deals configurable? In the Deals Cost Settings I see:

 

- Debt removed by deal

- Gold to remove deal

- Deal duration (days)

- Early removal (multiplier)

- Discount limit

[Lupine00]

I intend to remove the base plus per-level mechanic for daily debt shortly.

 

It's odd that it only supports per-level for that one cost.

 

Instead I will introduce a universal debt scaling mechanic, which will allow you to set a level-based scaling adjustment for ALL costs, which I think will be more useful.

 

The new mechanic will allow scaling, and a power factor, so you can tweak the power factor to adjust for the way that earnings can suddenly increase at higher levels, or not. Up to you.

[Buridan]

That sounds really good!

[HexBolt8]

13 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

A devious follower isn't really going for that though, they still want money, after all everyone does, but I think what they really want is a slave.

I think the DF wants a capable slave.  This being DFC, the slave part (I thought) is understood.  Maybe I should have explicitly made that point.  Anyway, if for example the DF relies on the PC as a tank, cross training that tank into uselessness doesn't benefit the DF in the long run.  The PC can't tank anymore, can't make enough money to pay the DF, and gets sold for a low price because of poor skills.  Importantly, turning the PC into a useless slave ruins the game for the player.  If I can't play Skyrim anymore it's time to start over.  DFC's strength is that it doesn't blow up my game, it still lets me play.

 

Darkwing and I are probably mostly in agreement, just coming at it from opposite directions.  The DF always seeks the advantage and to control the PC and foster dependence on the DF, but without ruining the PC and the game.  Making the PC a better tank benefits the DF, as long as the DF remains in control, pulling the strings. 

 

The heart of my idea for forced training wasn't so much the training as having the DF spend the PC's money on something that's actually useful to the PC, but at a time when that prevents the PC from paying off the DF.  The PC probably intended to pay off the DF, then buy training with whatever was left over.  By reversing the order, the DF ensures that the PC can't buy out, but in a way that seems ever so helpful.  That seems pretty devious to me.  And the DF states that the training is because the PC sucks as an adventurer, weakening the PC's confidence.  Good news, you're getting remedial training in holding a sword because you don't seem to know which end to point at the enemy.

 

If the training thing doesn't work, that's fine, really.  It was just an idea.  The main aspect that I liked was the DF being helpful in a way that undermines the PC and prolongs the DF's control.  Perhaps there are better ways to do that.  The deals do that of course, but if you're doing well you don't need them, so I was looking for some other insidious way to give the PC something beneficial in a way that extends the DF's influence even if you don't need a deal.

 

I really like Lupine's concept of a player-initiated guided path of development (bimbofication, etc.).  As the player I still choose the path the PC is "forced" into, just as I choose to install this mod to have things happen to my character.  A lot of work there, more for the far future or that dominant follower mod, but a good idea. 

[Darkwing241]

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Darkwing's suggestion is mechanics heavy. Definitely possible, but changing the mechanics of how you play the game and wiring it into DF. I think that's probably going to be a bit divisive. It fits great with the "boss follower" scenario and my most common preferred style, so I like it. It would just need to be counterbalanced by alternative options for players who don't like that sort of thing.

I try to keep my suggestions mechanically ambiguous and instead lean into flavor.  I have no idea what is or is not easy to implement. I'm just trying to offer bits and pieces for you to cannibalize and turn into something useful.

 

[slvsaris]

Quote

Devious Followers (DF) works with most regular followers and follower frameworks. It does not work with special custom followers that have standalone AI.

 

Ha!  Recorder currently has me under her thumb, and she is mean!

[Darkwing241]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I intend to remove the base plus per-level mechanic for daily debt shortly.

 

It's odd that it only supports per-level for that one cost.

 

Instead I will introduce a universal debt scaling mechanic, which will allow you to set a level-based scaling adjustment for ALL costs, which I think will be more useful.

 

The new mechanic will allow scaling, and a power factor, so you can tweak the power factor to adjust for the way that earnings can suddenly increase at higher levels, or not. Up to you.

Yikes! Change is Scary!

 

I'm trying to think if my fear is rational or not though.

 

My default set up aims to be a "get me into trouble later" kind of thing.  So low base costs and high per level scaling.  wages would work the same, punishment debt would probably work better if it scaled, what other costs are there? 

 

Would this include deal buyout costs? If so would it also include deal rewards? I can imagine a situation where deals flip from being long run cash gainers to cash losers.  That might not be ideal?

 

max debt allowed should maybe scale as well?

 

I think scaling most things would probably be a good idea the 400 gold I get from a deal quickly becomes irrelevant, but higher amounts allow you to buy the world at level 1.

 

[Balgin]

1 hour ago, HexBolt8 said:

The heart of my idea for forced training wasn't so much the training as having the DF spend the PC's money on something that's actually useful to the PC, but at a time when that prevents the PC from paying off the DF.  The PC probably intended to pay off the DF, then buy training with whatever was left over.  By reversing the order, the DF ensures that the PC can't buy out, but in a way that seems ever so helpful.

Surely if you have level based costs then forcing training is only going to accelerate those costs. Not necessarily very much, but it's still going to affect the balance of the mod. It's entirely possible (and, in many cases, probable) that the PC intended to pay the DF off then NOT spend any of the money on training because they had other plans and didn't want to rush advancement and spoil the curve.

[HexBolt8]

54 minutes ago, Balgin said:

It's entirely possible (and, in many cases, probable) that the PC intended to pay the DF off then NOT spend any of the money on training because they had other plans and didn't want to rush advancement and spoil the curve.

Fair point.  Lupine had also noted that players use training differently, so yeah the training idea falls flat. 

 

I like the concept of something sneaky but helpful being done to make it harder for the PC to be in a position to dismiss the follower, I just can't think of anything better.  To your other point, my intention was that this would only occur when the PC is doing so well financially as to be on the verge of breaking away from the DF, so if your costs are high then this would never occur, and it would only increase costs at the margin.  Lupine also said that another gold sink isn't needed, so that scraps the part about the DF spending money on your behalf. 

 

With training and spending both out, what's left?  Some enticing offer to keep you from leaving, maybe?  Perhaps a voluntary deal with a longer than usual duration and no buyout, but something attractive in return.  For example (not actually a "deal") the current contract is about to expire (or has expired) and you're debt free or nearly so, and the DF might lose you.  So the DF offers a new contract with a longer duration, but with terms that at least seem better than the current contract.  There's probably a hidden surprise, but you won't find out until you re-enlist sign up.

[The Ashen]

I have a random suggestion. 

 

When in debt and low on cash a "whore yourself out functionality" could be fun. But based on frequency of use and resistance it can result in getting the whore deal added. 

 

In the first case reasonable gold (150 ish) is made and taken from your debt. In the later case it behaves as the deal normally does. 

 

P.S. : I love this mod, you are doing a hero's work. 

[slicksly]

21 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

You could lock real training to zero and then all training would have to go through DF.

 

As a concept, it doesn't sound as exciting as new deals, or follower driven quests, or follower personality types though.

 

I'm not even 100% sure about the immersive rationale for it.

 

People who use training as their main progression mechanism are a bit of a niche audience, and for everyone else, training is kind of unimportant.

 

It's an interesting idea for a slavery mod in general, but I'm not even sure it's 100% a DF appropriate. It seems like an idea that either wants its own mod, or fits into a general cash sinking/gameplay mod, like SLS.

 

The actual proposal, as a narrative, sounds great, but I think so much more needs to be done before there's a good place for it. 

I like the sound of a DF who appoints themselves as your "master" in a traditional trainer sense, or who you have to persuade to be your master, and having that character provide training in a skill area in return for ridiculous demands. But it might work better without so many devices and with more tasks ... i.e. a completely different mod with a completely different, non devious, focus. Or, it could lead to the idea of a "devious teacher" who sets challenges that are supposed to be about improving combat or magic, but which always seem to be about binding the PC in devious devices and having a lot of sex. Some of these things sort of exist in Slaverun, or ToH, or the old DD built-in quests, or Arngrim's Apprentice, etc, etc. so there's a pattern for them.

 

So, it sounds like there's plenty of possibility there, but DF is largely mapped out in terms of general direction for now: more deals, more impression of the follower taking charge, basic follower personality types / archetypes. improving the slavery experience, and boss-follower type scenarios. There's enough to keep me busy indefinitely there I should imagine.

 

Having addressed modular deals to the extent that 2.11 manages, I think the primary area of bugginess remaining in DF is around the scanner and sex-scene management. The latter is quite diffused throughout the code-base and will likely be an ongoing issue. The scanner is a specific thing that needs replacing at some point. It should be ... OK ... now, but I suspect the future is to get all that kind of scanning done to a high standard in SLAX, and then DF can simply use the SLAX results, avoiding any additional scans altogether.

As a concept, the DF fiddling with PC skills might be interesting, both as a punishment mechanic, and as a way of showing the DF exerting his will over the character, shaping the PC into the sort of tool he wants her to be. If the game can track most recently gained skills, it could reduce a number of those whenever the retraining would trigger, instead increase the skills preferred by the DF. So you'd be fighting and gaining Light Armor and 1Hand, but your DF wants you to be a graceful healslut, so away goes your combat and armor skills, and in goes Restoration and Speech.

 

The entire thing could be triggered as a deal, where the DF would have you study every day x hours or face penalties if delayed.

 

As for an immersive way for the DF to have you do the retraining, it could either be triggered through reading a given book initiating a studying idle on the PC and fast-forwarding time a few hours (while the payment meter is running, of course...), or skip the animations and black-screen with SFX and descriptive text with time change as well.

Gameplay-wise, it could be annoying to have your character skills go different ways than you were intending your chararcter to play, so I suppose there should be some options, such as "I want you to train as an assassin / tank / healslut / something else", all which would drain your most recent skills and instead give you gains from a selected pool. However, there should also be an element of inconvenience or weakening in there, I feel, as to mesh with the entire overarching theme of the DF slowly enslaving the character.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, The Ashen said:

When in debt and low on cash a "whore yourself out functionality" could be fun. But based on frequency of use and resistance it can result in getting the whore deal added. 

Slightly better prostitution functionality has been on the wish list for a while now.

My first thought is that this would be in the form of a deal - it's briefly outlined in the blog post on the 2020 roadmap.

The existing whore deal really only amounts to the sign, and occasional customers in inns.

Strictly: plug, armor, then whoring with, or without sign.

 

Personally, I disable the sign, as it's annoying.

 

Voluntary whoring pre-deal wasn't something I thought about. It's a slightly different problem. I guess I'll see when I get to it.

[Lupine00]

  

3 hours ago, slicksly said:

Gameplay-wise, it could be annoying to have your character skills go different ways than you were intending your chararcter to play, so I suppose there should be some options, such as "I want you to train as an assassin / tank / healslut / something else", all which would drain your most recent skills and instead give you gains from a selected pool. However, there should also be an element of inconvenience or weakening in there, I feel, as to mesh with the entire overarching theme of the DF slowly enslaving the character.

One possibility is that any genuinely DF driven skill changes could be slavery-only.

 

There's a need for ideas to punish low willpower, and I guess that's another way of gating it.

 

However, for low willpower, I'm looking for things DF can do when you don't even have a DF, related to low willpower.

 

SLS can erode your willpower with no follower at all, but it means nothing at the moment, until you get a follower, and even then the impact is not huge.

 

There's the forced follower mechanic on low willpower, but that has to be kept for very low will.

Something for moderate will, that isn't so overwhelmingly intrusive.

 

Events like a merchant screwing you over, or SexLab Approach type molesting spring to mind.

Another possibility is "demands" from NPCs in terms of "fetch me a shrubbery".

 

This could work with new radiant quests, or existing vanilla quests.

 

So, instead of the PC *offering* to do some quest for an NPC: "I could get you that mammoth tusk." ...

The NPC could demand it. "You look like some kind of adventurer. Make yourself useful for once and fetch me a mammoth tusk. Don't dawdle, it's important."

And so you get the vanilla quest, but by a different dialog route.

Nothing really changed, but it feels different.

 

Sort of TCIY in reverse.

 

And for the radiant quests, the requesting NPCs could punish you with a one-off device add if you don't deliver on time, or complain to the guards, or some other minor punishment.

 

It's an interesting possibility, but there's a lot of research work in making the vanilla interoperations, and the radiant quest thing might wear thin if it's also used in other scenarios.

 

At least it wouldn't be as harsh and random as DEC, where people just seem to stick devices on you for no reason - and you let them.

I guess that raises another possible consequence of low willpower if you don't have a DF. But just having NPCs randomly device you, for no real reason, is ... kind of dumb ... and DCL does it and DEC does it and it doesn't add much in either case, so while I guess it's a feature that's straightforward to add, is it really fun? It feels a bit 2016  

 

At a high level, I can break the possibilities of low-willpower disadvantage down to: impositions, taking your stuff, bad deals, abusive dialog, unwanted sex, unwanted followers. ToH sort of does the whole range of this stuff, but without a willpower mechanic (dignity is not a willpower mechanic in ToH).

 

I like ideas that are mini-quests - the ToH approach - but they aren't very repeatable. It would be funny if someone like Erikur decided you should be his maid, and due to low willpower, you just cave.

"My housekeeper is looking for a new maid. You look like a maid. Go and report to her."

And then a series of amusing events ensue...

Well that's great, but it's a lot of effort to create one-time content.

ToH is all about that, but the content it has is coded with extremely minimalist mechanics and a lot of tell-not-show pop-ups that inevitably end in a SexLab scene ... and then it's done, and you move on. The only way to make all those little stories is to keep it very simple, and even then it's a full-on project and a mod in its own right, not just a feature.

 

 

What other things could happen due to low willpower?

Returning to the list impositions, taking your stuff, bad deals, abusive dialog, unwanted sex, unwanted followers, what offers good combinations of fun, replayability, and ease of implementation?

[slicksly]

 

 

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

However, for low willpower, I'm looking for things DF can do when you don't even have a DF, related to low willpower.

 

Events like a merchant screwing you over, or SexLab Approach type molesting spring to mind.

Another possibility is "demands" from NPCs in terms of "fetch me a shrubbery".

 

This could work with new radiant quests, or existing vanilla quests.

 

And for the radiant quests, the requesting NPCs could punish you with a one-off device add if you don't deliver on time, or complain to the guards, or some other minor punishment.

I've always been partial to the concept of an NPC locking devices on you and then sending you off to do a radiant quest, your release from the devices being meant as a motivating factor for the quest's completion. I agree that random devices wouldn't really feel right, so the NPC instead picking from a set of layouts might be more appropriate, the severity of the outfits higher the lower your willpower.

But why'd the NPC need to motivate you through devices if your willpower is already low? You'd just want to complete his request with little resistance anyhow, right? Yes, however I feel this should also be about what the NPC wants (locking you in devices for control, humiliation, inconvenience etc) , not just what your charcacter wants (to help, to serve, to be of use, to just get on with it to stop the nagging etc); at high willpower, it's not very likely you'd allow some stranger to boss you around and tell you what to do - and especially not allow them locking you in inconvenient devices - but as your willpower wanes, you'd might be more accepting to having some stuff locked onto you, resulting in harsher bondage as your low willpower denies your disapproval.

Gameplay-wise, it'd hopefully mesh with the regular radiant system sending you to dungeons to do the regular Skyrim stuff. In order to preserve gameplay viability, the devices I'm envisioning here wouldn't be the harshest  (as in; nothing that locks hands, denies main body armor slot, or reduces movement speed too much (meaning yes to boots, no to hobbledresses)) - on decently high willpower, we could be talking some light devices such as escapable leather cuffs and harness and possibly the restrictive leather-line of gear, while on lower willpower you'd get locked into metal devices with appropriately frustrating plugs. I'm feeling collars, hoods and masks should be at the lowest levels of willpower, as while not too impractical for gameplay, it does signify a sort of surrender of personality in a BDSM perspective, and thusly would fit best when the character's no longer really  thinking about what she wants anymore.

 

A system such as this would get the you into devices in a way that makes sense, I feel, and it'd be for a limited period of time (potentially, unless the quest NPC wants you to keep working for them) rather than the typical "life of bondage"-flavours that's more common (and typically gameplay-breaking). 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

  

Spoiler

 

One possibility is that any genuinely DF driven skill changes could be slavery-only.

 

There's a need for ideas to punish low willpower, and I guess that's another way of gating it.

 

However, for low willpower, I'm looking for things DF can do when you don't even have a DF, related to low willpower.

 

SLS can erode your willpower with no follower at all, but it means nothing at the moment, until you get a follower, and even then the impact is not huge.

 

There's the forced follower mechanic on low willpower, but that has to be kept for very low will.

Something for moderate will, that isn't so overwhelmingly intrusive.

 

Events like a merchant screwing you over, or SexLab Approach type molesting spring to mind.

Another possibility is "demands" from NPCs in terms of "fetch me a shrubbery".

 

This could work with new radiant quests, or existing vanilla quests.

 

So, instead of the PC *offering* to do some quest for an NPC: "I could get you that mammoth tusk." ...

The NPC could demand it. "You look like some kind of adventurer. Make yourself useful for once and fetch me a mammoth tusk. Don't dawdle, it's important."

And so you get the vanilla quest, but by a different dialog route.

Nothing really changed, but it feels different.

 

Sort of TCIY in reverse.

 

And for the radiant quests, the requesting NPCs could punish you with a one-off device add if you don't deliver on time, or complain to the guards, or some other minor punishment.

 

It's an interesting possibility, but there's a lot of research work in making the vanilla interoperations, and the radiant quest thing might wear thin if it's also used in other scenarios.

 

At least it wouldn't be as harsh and random as DEC, where people just seem to stick devices on you for no reason - and you let them.

I guess that raises another possible consequence of low willpower if you don't have a DF. But just having NPCs randomly device you, for no real reason, is ... kind of dumb ... and DCL does it and DEC does it and it doesn't add much in either case, so while I guess it's a feature that's straightforward to add, is it really fun? It feels a bit 2016  

 

At a high level, I can break the possibilities of low-willpower disadvantage down to: impositions, taking your stuff, bad deals, abusive dialog, unwanted sex, unwanted followers. ToH sort of does the whole range of this stuff, but without a willpower mechanic (dignity is not a willpower mechanic in ToH).

 

I like ideas that are mini-quests - the ToH approach - but they aren't very repeatable. It would be funny if someone like Erikur decided you should be his maid, and due to low willpower, you just cave.

"My housekeeper is looking for a new maid. You look like a maid. Go and report to her."

And then a series of amusing events ensue...

Well that's great, but it's a lot of effort to create one-time content.

ToH is all about that, but the content it has is coded with extremely minimalist mechanics and a lot of tell-not-show pop-ups that inevitably end in a SexLab scene ... and then it's done, and you move on. The only way to make all those little stories is to keep it very simple, and even then it's a full-on project and a mod in its own right, not just a feature.

 

 

What other things could happen due to low willpower?

Returning to the list impositions, taking your stuff, bad deals, abusive dialog, unwanted sex, unwanted followers, what offers good combinations of fun, replayability, and ease of implementation?

 

 

Something I considered adding to Deviously Vanilla was making some Solutions events more forced or demanding based on willpower, but that might also fit as a standalone for DF.

Though that does of course rely on people having Solutions installed, so it might be too much effort for something not everybody is going to see.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, slicksly said:

I've always been partial to the concept of an NPC locking devices on you and then sending you off to do a radiant quest, your release from the devices being meant as a motivating factor for the quest's completion. I agree that random devices wouldn't really feel right, so the NPC instead picking from a set of layouts might be more appropriate, the severity of the outfits higher the lower your willpower.

When I was thinking of punishment for not doing the quest, I was thinking there would be a time limit - not a tight one, but intrusive enough to stop you just slotting in the quest when it's convenient to you - and if you don't do it in the time limit, next time you come within range of the NPC - if your willpower is still low, then they punish you with a device, and if it isn't, they complain to the guards in an ambiguous way that leads to you getting some bounty as a punishment.

 

But you wouldn't be expected to complete the quest in devices; the devices would be avoidable too, if you do the quest in a reasonable time.

 

 

1 hour ago, Targultoon said:

Something I considered adding to Deviously Vanilla was making some Solutions events more forced or demanding based on willpower, but that might also fit as a standalone for DF.

Though that does of course rely on people having Solutions installed, so it might be too much effort for something not everybody is going to see.

It depends on how much effort it takes. Checking willpower is easy, but if the extra consequences are a lot of trouble, it might not be a good return on effort.

OTOH, when you add a feature, people tend to install the things to see it, because they want to see all the features if they can.

 

Unless getting that feature requires installing DD or Zaz when you don't want them; that seems to be an obstacle some people can't get over.

Even with latest FNIS, the override limit is still an issue, and with DD+Zaz installed, you don't have a lot of overrides left.

I am currently "over" the advised limit in FNIS, but either I'm getting lucky, because it's just an estimate, or the patch DLL is doing its job.

 

Personally, I'm likely to put DV in any new game - for a while at least - because I like Devious, and it's more of that, and in a better way than just randomly.

There hasn't been anything good like that since Trapped in Rubber. OK, DCL of course, but it's a drip-feed and I've done those DCL quests a lot.

Sometimes I wish something random and different would happen. It never does. Or if it does, my game is broken. For a while now, DCL has been removed but if new content appears for it, then it will be back for sure.

 

Maybe a lot of people would install DV + SLS + DF? I don't have any idea. If they had synergy, maybe people would do it simply because of how they add together?

[valcon767]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

When I was thinking of punishment for not doing the quest, I was thinking there would be a time limit - not a tight one, but intrusive enough to stop you just slotting in the quest when it's convenient to you - and if you don't do it in the time limit, next time you come within range of the NPC - if your willpower is still low, then they punish you with a device, and if it isn't, they complain to the guards in an ambiguous way that leads to you getting some bounty as a punishment.

 

just my 2 cents worth, dunno if this idea would be better here on in a different mod.

 

radiant quests only (with or without a DF along).

they give you a time limit (say 1 or 2 weeks). 

if high willpower and not done in time they just add a device (no heavy bondage).

if low willpower they put you in a device (no heavy bondage or gag), but if not finished in time they add another device (heavy bondage and gags possible).

 

example:

high willpower

you talk to Amren and he says go get my family sword from crypt quickly.

if you turn it in within the time limit he just pays you as normal.

if you are late turning it in, he locks a device on you with a comment "Maybe that will motivate you to do thing quickly next time someone asks for help." no regular pay.

 

low willpower 

you talk to Amren and he says go get my family sword back from crypt, and to give you some motivation to do it quickly (he then locks a single device on you, excluding heavy

bondage and gags).

if you turn it in on time, he pays you as normal with a comment like "I guess the motivation worked." (does not remove device)

if you are late turning it in he comments "I guess you like wearing stuff like that, so here is a reward you would prefer." (locks another device on you, heavy bondage and gags possible)

 

 

[LAXL02]

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

At least it wouldn't be as harsh and random as DEC, where people just seem to stick devices on you for no reason - and you let them.

I guess that raises another possible consequence of low willpower if you don't have a DF. But just having NPCs randomly device you, for no real reason, is ... kind of dumb

I got tired of that in DCL, if I wanted to be locked in random bondage devices, i could just open my inventory, close my eyes and click randomly. (even if the device reactions thingy in DCL made it kind of interesting anyway) Most of the fun for me comes from the interactions with others, the acknowledgement that others are seeing and reacting to the situation. Also, unless you code it in yourself (or make a mod with this functionality a requirement), there is always the possibility that someone can't get out of a certain restraint, meaning they'll be permanently (or at least permanently enough for them to start over/remove your mod) locked in a potentially game-(or at least fun-)breaking device.

 

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

TCIY   ToH   SLS

From what I've read in this tread, I'd certainly like to at least check out these mods, but I am definitely blanking on which ones these are, if I have even actually come across them, any hints?

[Buridan]

ToH is Troubles of Heroine, SLS is SexLab Survival. Not sure about TCIY.

 

5 hours ago, slicksly said:

I've always been partial to the concept of an NPC locking devices on you and then sending you off to do a radiant quest, your release from the devices being meant as a motivating factor for the quest's completion.

I like this a bit better than a time limitation. I like the idea that I could just learn to live with the device for a while if it's not something I want to do just right this moment - either way it's a sort of imposition, but I get to choose the specific flavor of my degradation.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Buridan said:

Not sure about TCIY.

TCIY is The Choice is Yours

[Kharadin]

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

What other things could happen due to low willpower?

Returning to the list impositions, taking your stuff, bad deals, abusive dialog, unwanted sex, unwanted followers, what offers good combinations of fun, replayability, and ease of implementation?

Since people started dropping in their two cents, I thought why not to put in a bit myself.

The sequence for putting on devices on player depends on the (radiant) quest giver's goals. I read the propositions from Slicksly, and it reminded me of a certain mod, called "Treausure Hunter Whore", where upon sleeping in the wilderness you have a chance to be sent to an ancient Vampire, who would then proceed to bind you character in lots of devices and unleash you to roam Skyrim in search of an item, Quick As You Like-style (with a few twists). So the Vampire's goal - same as with any character that puts devices on player before quest completion - is to have fun with PC. If you, on the other hand, want things done, why would you put restricting devices on anyone before they are doing it? There are other, more civil (do we have place for anything civil in devious mods?..), incentives to make PC do things, like: payment upon completion, threat of complaints to the guard or even Jarl (if the NPC is Nazeem) etc. So maybe the in-character motivation for NPCs might be a major consideration when deciding on when to put devices on player. Maven wouldn't put those on her errand gal, but Erikur just might. Not telling that all game NPCs should be sorted into a reasonable bunch ("Maven"-type) or a more erratic/gleeful ("Erikur"-type) - I suspect that would be a) time-consuming b) probably unnecessary.

Besides devices, you have yourself mentioned an option for punishing PC for not making it on time - a complaint to the guard. That seems perfectly scalable with any amount of willpower and even opportunities to uphold it; that encounter does not need to always lead to player getting a bounty. So, say, you fail to deliver an item to an NPC on time. NPC calls the guard. The guard comes and says "What say you in yer defense?!". You could, for example, say that there was no contract or anything that would compel you to do the task. Depending on your WP, PC would deliver it in different lines - with moderate WP, Guard will reluctantly agree, with low WP "B-b-b-but I didn't..." just doesn't cut it, leading to a fine or else. Afterwards, even if the Guard has to reluctantly agree with your argument, he might say that nevertheless he wants to search you (it might be just for stolen items, as usual, or it might include search and confiscation of items for which you have no SLS licence?..). Then you might increase your WP by saying "On the grounds of what exactly?". Or you could submit to the search. BTW, maybe there's a chance that disgruntled Guard would try to plant something illegal on you - but that is a whole other incident, and considering that most logical consequence of such thing would be fine/arrest, I'm not sure that implementing such event would be a good gameplay event - after all, you just made things to avoid unfair arrest, and now you are immediately getting punished by the law regardless of your WP and choices? Though maybe a plant of a stolen/illegal item might be just that, with no immediate action from the guard which planted it (leaving planted item to be discovered by another guard/enforcer later on if the PC doesn;t do anything with this heat).

Also, if the (radiant) task offered some kind of payment, the NPC could try and reward you with just a "thank you" upon completion. Moderate WP character could try to collect the payment through dialog - which might auto-succed or require to pass a Speech check (on check fail, maybe instead of payment you would get one of the task failure outcomes, like a device or a guard complaint).

Sorry if my bit looks more like pound, I hope its at least constructive enough to warrant all that reading ?