Devious Followers - Continued

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, slicksly said:

Depends what sound clips you'd need really

As I have no idea what clips you want to hear other than human voice, I'm open to suggestion.

I can imagine panting, grunts, cry of pain, moaning, and other fx that are mostly probably in sexlab already so can be used from there.

FX from DD could also be used.

[gravediggers240]

Man, the more I think about it the more I think SD+ would be great with DF, but it just does not work with my load order. Like, what the mod adds is really good, but getting random CTDs every 30 mins to an hour just isn't worth it for me. Tempted to throw caution to the wind and try and redo my entire load order, but I'm not sure if it's worth the time for a single mod.

Just gotta make sure, am I somehow the only person who suffers from stability issues with it, or is that like a common thing? Never looked into it really.

Hmm, now I'm second guessing myself. Was it SD+, or its requirements that made my game unstable? Doesn't say so anymore but I previously thought it required DD FTM(What happened to that? Just went looking for it and it's been wiped off of the site.) and a few other larger mods as well, Hmm, maybe I was using the original and not +? Who knows.

Wanted to see the original's page to check for what it required, but it seems like it has disappeared as well.

[slicksly]

16 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

As I have no idea what clips you want to hear other than human voice, I'm open to suggestion.

I can imagine panting, grunts, cry of pain, moaning, and other fx that are mostly probably in sexlab already so can be used from there.

FX from DD could also be used.

I feel the best application would be using both screen-effect elements and audio at once, for instance, with DFC and whipping, which is what spurred this line of thought from me, I'm envisioning a screen-edge mostly transparent pulsing red, veiny overlay displaying for a few seconds, combined with sounds of stressed breathing and a sort of "oh shit you're gonna die!"-ambience in the background, with the normal game sound muffled during the effect. (Actually, now that I think on it, that's pretty much the bleedout-effect (from vanilla? From DAYMOYL? I dunno))

In a broader sense, sound could be used to underline physical and emotional states, and as you mentioned, there's already samples in Sexlab and DD which could probably be of use (although I can't recall the rights given in my head right now). I'm thinking there'd be internal sounds (underlining physical and mental conditions of the character) and external sounds (pointing towards real or imagined sounds around the character). Internal sounds could be groaning from pain and discomfort, moaning or sighing from pleasure and arousal, shaky breath for uncertainty or withdrawal, sharp heavy breath for focus on concentration, rumbling belly for hunger, coughing and choking for breath-related issues, ringing or chiming ears, slow and heavy or excitedly rapid heartbeats. External sounds could be the unsheathing of weapons or rapidly approaching footsteps to indicate fear and paranoia, the clatter of chains or metal-scraping-metal to indicate an aversion from or attraction to slavery, sensual moans and giggles in the distance to indicate getting sex-crazed, and so on.

[valcon767]

On 4/17/2020 at 8:15 PM, Buridan said:

2. What mods do you guys recommend to go along with DF? A lot of the others I've tried (Defeat, Kidnapped etc) don't really gel well with DF - not in terms of mod conflict but more that the others tend to be about unpredictability and sudden reversals of fortune, while DF is (to me) more about slowly sinking into the quicksand. Both aspects of the dubious-consent kink I'm really into, but maybe not at the same time.

 

 

the ones i find most useful (after SLS and STA) are adding 2 types of mods

1 - economy adjustment mods (scarcity or trade and barter etc.) 

i use Trade and Barter to make stuff both cost more to buy and worth less when sold (and worse prices naked) combined with Player Exhibitionist where prices are worse yet again when naked where 90-95% of the time the merchant  will not trade unless i am naked and with it set so that it take a while before i can redress.

 

 

2- mods that add devices to you at times (DCL, DEC{follower force equipping random devices}, Devious Lore, etc) 

[Lupine00]

52 minutes ago, valcon767 said:

1 - economy adjustment mods (scarcity or trade and barter etc.) 

Burdens of Skyrim - makes you need a follower and makes playing a heavy tank something you really have to work at, you'll have big problems carrying any loot at all.

Mortal Weapons and Armor - definitely messes with your ability to wear anything you find. Gear is no longer "forever".

 

53 minutes ago, valcon767 said:

2- mods that add devices to you at times (DCL, DEC{follower force equipping random devices}, Devious Lore, etc) 

I prefer Devious Lore right now. If DCL gets some new content I might bring it back, but it's fairly compatible with DL.

 

And Sexlab Disparity  of course... So those devices do a bit more than usual.

[Lupine00]

I'm testing a 2.11 beta now. Fixes a few things that have been mentioned.

 

With the modular deals display bug...

 

 

I think I know what's happening, but it seems it should be uncommon.

Spoiler

 

But getting back to the problem ... sometimes modular deals could, feasibly fail to dispense a T1 or 2 deal, returning no deal.

This results in a blank slot in the deals display, because there literally is no deal there.

That's the only way I can see you getting a blank slot.

 

The return of no deal is not handled at all; though it seems feasible, it simply isn't considered.

 

 

The question is, why do some users fail to get a deal back from the modular deal allocator?

I can see it might fail when you're pushing the deal limit and conflicts rule out everything. It's hard to imagine having so many T1/2 deals you can't get anything, but that HAS to be what happens. Because there are potentially so many modular deal sets, a lot of T1/2 deals can be consumed, but regular deals can easily block several too, or the reverse.

 

This means the only real fix is to add more T1 and 2 deals that do not clash.

 

 

I came across another issue in testing, which I think is actually worse - because it's 100% reproducible.

If you set the max deals to something over 9, you will stop getting deals at 9 anyway, and instead be given deal extensions.

 

 

 

Modular deals are (alas) a rather awkward implementation. The most problematic part is the idea that you can optimize or not optimize deals.

In this case optimize is a synonym for "not totally broken and conflicting" so you really, really, really want optimized deals.

 

Non-optimized deals are highly likely to either put you in some impossible situation, or simply give you a free deal you were already meeting the requirements for.

 

Even if you do enable "optimization", which should be on by default, but isn't, it can still be disabled internally, in the case where no deals are available under the optimized case. The player won't see any warning, they'll just get a silly deal.

 

This should happen rather than no-deal being returned, but it seems that no-deal can be returned, as it's the only way to explain the apparent empty slots.

 

 

The no-optimization path needs to be stripped entirely. At first, I thought I'd leave it in, but it's not a good idea and it must be removed, so that's a new chore. Another quirk is that the code is split between the base deal class and the override. I don't actually know why, because all modular deals use the override.

 

I'd like to completely replace the modular deal code, as it's a bit of a mess, but I'm not sure that's possible without forcing a new game.

This means - as usual - patching it up as best possible and bearing the pain of difficult maintenance.

 

Modular deals are poor - as a whole - because they defeat the willpower mechanic. The only willpower decision you can make is to skip a T3 deal. Otherwise, why would you refuse "I'll add a random deal to the Bear Deal" ? You have no idea what deal is being added, so refusing it is of no benefit. Unless... you know Bear is already at T2 so you'll get a T3 deal next, and T3 deals tend to be a bit harsher than T1 or 2.

If the above theory is correct, I should be able to replicate the problem by taking lots of non-modular deals first, but I haven't had a chance to try that yet.

 

One solution is to strip the modular deal code and rewrite it and its dialogs from scratch, so they are dialog driven. That means adding a ton of new dialogs, which is quite a chore.

 

There are other approaches, but they all involve a lot of new dialogs, because that's how deals work unfortunately.

I don't want to do something that big when I still need to fix bugs in SLAX, so for now, it will stay as it is.

 

I just need to come up with several deals that require almost no effort to implement and that can't clash with other deals  

[Buridan]

Brief observations on the new game I started:

 

1. Bumped the base debt to 1000, with level-based debt of 50. Still managed to stay ahead until I wrapped up most of the Whiterun environs and decided I wanted to go west. A couple days of bad decisions and difficulty finding merchants later, I'm spiraling, and hard. Had to take a bunch of deals, but debt interest on its own is killing me. Largely happy with the balance I've found, though I might tune daily debt interest down to 20-30% for the next run, I think. Just so deals taken have a bigger impact.

 

2. Really good synergy with Sexlab Survival and Adventures, like you suggested. Running around Solitude desperately offloading loot and debasing myself for gold (through SLS's begging feature) was super anxiety-inducing, in the best way. The sleep theft event is also a strong incentive to go for gold control.

 

3. Any suggestions for custom whore armor? The default ones don't fit on CBBE bodies.

 

On 4/19/2020 at 7:37 PM, valcon767 said:

2- mods that add devices to you at times (DCL, DEC{follower force equipping random devices}, Devious Lore, etc) 

I've been using Deviously Enchanted Chests for unwilling device installation in my current game, but gotta say I like Deviously Enslaved's method of the follower forcing it on you more. Feels like there's more malicious intent in that case.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, Buridan said:

3. Any suggestions for custom whore armor? The default ones don't fit on CBBE bodies.

You can lift the CBBE equivalents from TAWoBA CBBE version.

 

If you tweak the armor values Melodic's Reverse Bunnysuit is tempting.

 

Remember that you don't really need all three suits. You're only going to wear one, so you can leave the unworn ones UNP and it won't matter.

 

Actually, the UNP ones should fit you just fine if you Bodyslide them for your CBBE body because they are UUNP and will take on a CBBE -shape-.

The bodyslide data isn't in DF, but it is in TAWoBA UUNP and CBBE versions.

 

They don't have body textures in, so they work ok on a CBBE body. At least as far as I remember.

[Lupine00]

Spent some more time on modular deals...

 

There are a bunch of bugs in there.

 

I strongly recommend you do not ever adjust what deals are enabled once you have a follower, even if it appears to do nothing and tells you that you can't it probably corrupted your deal state.

 

It's going to take a little while to clean up this one.

 

 

Somebody asked for the merchant deal to use more animations. I notice that - if you have sex with a human - it deliberately only picks oral animations.

I should think this is because you could be wearing quite a lot of restraints at the point you get that deal, but it is a little inflexible.

 

Clearly, it needs to not try oral if you have a gag, otherwise I think oral is the best option.

[Buridan]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

You can lift the CBBE equivalents from TAWoBA CBBE version.

 

If you tweak the armor values Melodic's Reverse Bunnysuit is tempting.

 

Remember that you don't really need all three suits. You're only going to wear one, so you can leave the unworn ones UNP and it won't matter.

 

Actually, the UNP ones should fit you just fine if you Bodyslide them for your CBBE body because they are UUNP and will take on a CBBE -shape-.

The bodyslide data isn't in DF, but it is in TAWoBA UUNP and CBBE versions.

 

They don't have body textures in, so they work ok on a CBBE body. At least as far as I remember.

Thank you, I will just lift one from TAWoBA's files. BodySlide is not quite idiot-proof enough for me, I can't really make heads or tails of how to use it to resize meshes. :[

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, Buridan said:

Thank you, I will just lift one from TAWoBA's files. BodySlide is not quite idiot-proof enough for me, I can't really make heads or tails of how to use it to resize meshes. :[

There are many online guides, including those by the BodySlide devs. Some are detailed. Some are video. So many guides. The best guides. Everybody is saying it!

 

But really, for normal use, it just comes down to opening BodySlide, picking the shape you like, clicking the little "build morphs" tickbox, then ctl-clicking Batch Build, ticking everything, picking a destination then letting it build. Dump the results into your MO override folder and made a new mod of them.

 

That skips over playing with sliders to make the shape you like a bit... Open a preview window, load your preferred body mesh, and just mess around. The slider at the top of preview lets you preview weight 0 on the left, weight 100 on the right. The sliders in the left column of the main BodySlide window are for weight 0, and on the right weight 100.

 

When you have a setup you like, save a preset.

 

Or you can use a preset somebody else made.

[Lupine00]

For those that like betas...

2.11 is mainly a bugfix version.

 

 

 

It should fix the following:

 

• problem excluding ex-followers - should now be able to exclude ex-followers
• could not pay priests to reduce resistance fatigue unless they were also your DF - should be able to pay priests as intended
• added additional dialog if you don't have enough money to impress the priest
• tape-gag and regular-gag conflict - you shouldn't get these deals together now
• weird potion breaks scenes - weird potion weakness should not kick in mid-scene, or while on a horse, or in other silly places
• corruption of modular deal state - several fixes here
• modular deals - should not give crawl and bound in towns deal together
• failure to process the add-follower mod-event - should work now?

 

Also adds a button to restore player controls in the Debug menu.

 

 

There were several issues in modular deals:

1) attempting to enable/disable deals in the MCM with any deals in progress could corrupt the deal state

2) when there are no applicable deals, you could get no deal, but it would show as nothing in the MCM

3) when there were no valid deals, you could get a nonsensical deal

4) bound and crawling deal could be given together, creating an animation conflict

5) deal allocation and checking was unnecessarily slow

 

You can still run out of valid modular deals and be allocated nothing - a freebie basically - but at least you'll be able to tell now.

The fix for this is to add more deals that aren't easily invalidated by conflicts, which I will get to eventually.

The workaround for this is to avoid enabling too many modular deals, and avoiding disabling candidate modular deals.

Alternatively, do not mix modular and classic deals - because they don't mix well and can easily jam each other up.

If you go modular, go all modular and disable the classic deals, or most of them if there's one you really love.

If you prefer using classic deals, I suggest using only one modular deal. Two at most, and zero is better.

 

The add follower mod event only fixed for new games. Will be fixed for updated games in next beta.

 

See more recent posts for newer beta.

[Monoman1]

I've been having some trouble dismissing followers with EFF. 

Short story:

I had one follower for a long time. The contract with her has expired. Then I took on some extra followers to take out a particularly difficult dungeon. Now I want to dismiss these extra followers but using the wheel menu or dialogue doesn't seem to work...

I've also tried paying all debt [Your follower will be dismisable] but that didn't work. The extra followers don't seem to have the dialogue "I won't need your help any longer" though they do have the old "It's time for us to part ways" which does the usual dialogue but doesn't dismiss them. 

 

Is that as intended or am I missing something? How is it meant to work?

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

I've been having some trouble dismissing followers with EFF. 

Short story:

I had one follower for a long time. The contract with her has expired. Then I took on some extra followers to take out a particularly difficult dungeon. Now I want to dismiss these extra followers but using the wheel menu or dialogue doesn't seem to work...

I've also tried paying all debt [Your follower will be dismisable] but that didn't work. The extra followers don't seem to have the dialogue "I won't need your help any longer" though they do have the old "It's time for us to part ways" which does the usual dialogue but doesn't dismiss them. 

 

Is that as intended or am I missing something? How is it meant to work?

Sounds to me like it's calling the wrong script. Checking in my LO, it seems like it's more of an issue with RDO than EFF, since it also overwrites the infos in DialogueFollowerDismissTopic.

 

Quickly checking DF's EFF script, and _df_global.psc, it DF seems to block dismissing via EFFs wheel, unless the stage of _DFlow is less than 10, which sounds like it would block on extra followers.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Monoman1 said:

Is that as intended or am I missing something? How is it meant to work?

It is not intended.

 

I think what *should* happen is that one of the extra followers should be detected as a DF after a short while, and then you can dismiss them through DF. 

It shouldn't be any different to a follower you recruit fresh being detected as a DF.

 

Funnily enough, it normally drives off Hello, so if you hello one of those orphan followers, they should give you "I hope you don't try to cheat me..."

 

Maybe your DF has not reset properly after sacking the "master" follower, and maybe that "just happened" or maybe it's a bug.

Or maybe something else is going on.

 

It was a bit over-ambitious trying to work with three different follower frameworks. Testing one, then the other, is awkward because the dev machine is so slow that doing the uninstall and reinstall in NMM takes hours. That's why I can't just pop into Skyrim and check out your scenario in EFF.

 

2.11 may let you exclude those orphan followers and let you part ways. You should just be able to reset them out of EFF using its wheel.

 

 

Ultimately, DF modifies EFF to check the CanDismissFollower function in _df_global, which is this:

 

Bool Function CanDismissFollower(Actor who) Global

    Quest dfMain = Game.GetFormFromFile(0x00000D62, "DeviousFollowers.esp") As Quest
    If dfMain && dfMain.GetStage() < 10
        Return True
    EndIf
    
    Faction facIgnore = Game.GetFormFromFile(0x090B8A73, "DeviousFollowers.esp") As Faction
    If facIgnore && who.IsInFaction(facIgnore)
        Return True
    EndIf
    
    Return False
EndFunction

 

So, if the follower is ignored, you can always dismiss them - you can set the ignored from the console, and remove it the same way.

But the normal way to dismiss is to Reset the DF main quest to stage 0, which should always happen on devious master dismiss.

[Lupine00]

47 minutes ago, Targultoon said:

Quickly checking DF's EFF script, and _df_global.psc, it DF seems to block dismissing via EFFs wheel, unless the stage of _DFlow is less than 10, which sounds like it would block on extra followers.

No. It's not that simple. Or is EXACTLY that simple, but the conclusion is wrong.

 

DF's extra followers are used only for debt calculation. That's all they do. The mod integration simply counts them.

None of those followers are THE devious follower, and when you dismiss THE devious follower, the quest should be reset. To stage 0.

And at that point you can either:

* quickly dismiss remaining "extra" followers

* wait, and one should Hello you with "I hope you don't try to cheat me..." and they are now THE devious follower.

 

 

There is, as far as I can remember, no funny magic when you pay off the follower. It sets stage 0, it doesn't check extra followers; that wouldn't make any sense. Debt it paid, DF is dismissable ... all followers are dismissable at that point.

[Monoman1]

Hmm. I'll tinker around a bit more and see what happens. 

For the record I am using RDO but DF is loaded after it and nothing is overwriting DF files except for some armors. So DF should be winning out. 

Oh and I'm not trying to dismiss the master follower, only all the extras I hired. 

 

Edit: And why do you mod in NMM? I would have thought MO would be your preference for modding. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

No. It's not that simple. Or is EXACTLY that simple, but the conclusion is wrong.

 

DF's extra followers are used only for debt calculation. That's all they do. The mod integration simply counts them.

None of those followers are THE devious follower, and when you dismiss THE devious follower, the quest should be reset. To stage 0.

And at that point you can either:

* quickly dismiss remaining "extra" followers

* wait, and one should Hello you with "I hope you don't try to cheat me..." and they are now THE devious follower.

But while you have a devious follower, it does block dismissing extra followers, or am I wrong?

 

Maybe I read @Monoman1's problem wrong then, but that is a situation I ran into last playthrough, where I wanted to swap out an extra follower for a different one, but I was unable to dismiss them. (Although that installation was all sorts of fucked up, so it might just have been some kind of conflict too)

[Lupine00]

15 minutes ago, Targultoon said:

But while you have a devious follower, it does block dismissing extra followers, or am I wrong?

 

Maybe I read @Monoman1's problem wrong then, but that is a situation I ran into last playthrough, where I wanted to swap out an extra follower for a different one, but I was unable to dismiss them. (Although that installation was all sorts of fucked up, so it might just have been some kind of conflict too)

Yes. When you have a DF running, and you owe money, and didn't just pay them off, the "extra" followers (unless they are excluded from DF handling) are considered buddies of the DF and will hang around no matter what. They "pretend" to be devious, but run none of the dialogs or packages, and simply count towards your billing calculation.

 

Lozeak didn't want to go through and work out, then edit, what dialogs needed to be limited to a single follower and what could be on anyone, so he kept the extra followers "fake" DFs and didn't let you have DF dialogs with them or anything else.

 

You can even set the extra cost to 0, so you aren't billed for them providing no meaningful deviousness.

[Lupine00]

19 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

For the record I am using RDO but DF is loaded after it and nothing is overwriting DF files except for some armors. So DF should be winning out. 

Oh and I'm not trying to dismiss the master follower, only all the extras I hired. 

You can't dismiss the hangers on without dismissing the boss unless you "pay off" the DF.

In that case the quest should reset, and everyone is fair game for dismissal until the DF updates debt.

 

If the DF dismissal dialog is working, you will not see it at all until you pay off.

If you saw a "It's time for us to part ways" dialog prior to paying out the DF, your install was broken.

 

I deliberately changed the "fake" dismissal dialogs to differ from the proper dismissal, so you can easily tell which is which when things go wrong.

[Monoman1]

Hmm. So I think I learned something new today. Topic sub-infos seem to stack regardless of the winning override for the topic itself.....

My follower has a dark elf voice (not Jenassa). When you 'It's time to part ways' one of her replies is: "I understand. Come and find me if you decide you miss my companionship"

Which is a reply from RDO, despite DF winning the dialog topic for "It's time to part ways" since it's loaded after RDO. 

 

I would have thought that since DF wins the "It's time to part ways" topic it would have just wiped all the sub-entries from other mods. Apparently not. 

 

Seems no matter your load order with RDO it's going to throw people off. Might be a good idea to flag it's as possibly incompatible. Or at least has some quirks. 

 

Managed to dismiss them in the end.

1. Deleted all the extra "It's time to part ways" responses in RDO + RDO Patches. 

2. Paid off debt [Follower will be dismissable]

3. Chose "It's time to part ways" which often didn't work still.

4. Immediately open the EFF Wheel and hit dismiss - this seems to work now.

5. DF master will pretty much immediately transfer to one of the other followers so you've got to do it all again. (needs a bit more of a cool off here I think)

 

Oh and you might need to reset the mod and change minimum contract to zero or you'll be waiting a lot. 

[Lupine00]

22 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Hmm. So I think I learned something new today. Topic sub-infos seem to stack regardless of the winning override for the topic itself.....

Indeed they do, because they are a completely different KIND of record; they aren't strictly bound to the topic at all.

 

23 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Seems no matter your load order with RDO it's going to throw people off.

Historically, people said it made DF CTD, so there's that.

I suspect the answer is to patch the RDO INFO.

Not that I think RDO is good for much, but some people seem to like it.

 

24 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Oh and you might need to reset the mod and change minimum contract to zero or you'll be waiting a lot. 

They don't want to let you go. They love you!

 

 

I spent some time testing modular deals. It turns out Lozeak never made any effort whatsoever to stop classic deals stomping all over them.

 

While modular deals try not to stomp on classic, there is no reverse check. The results are never good.

 

e.g. You are required to wear the crawling tail AND the whore sign at the same time. The follower continually "helps" you by swapping them and adding punishment debt.

 

 

I'm going to have to add checks to ALL the classic dialogs. Not going to be done quickly, but without it, you really can't use both systems at once.

 

I suspect I will release 2.11 with this known defect so people can have the fixes it DOES bring ASAP.

Then I'll make an RDO patch, but I'm not making a stupid FOMOD just for that.

Any sane person would want to merge it into their RDO anyway, to save the slot.

[Darkwing241]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I spent some time testing modular deals. It turns out Lozeak never made any effort whatsoever to stop classic deals stomping all over them.

 

While modular deals try not to stomp on classic, there is no reverse check. The results are never good.

 

e.g. You are required to wear the crawling tail AND the whore sign at the same time. The follower continually "helps" you by swapping them and adding punishment debt.

 

 

I'm going to have to add checks to ALL the classic dialogs. Not going to be done quickly, but without it, you really can't use both systems at once.

If you are looking for a way out of all that work, it's my opinion that modular deals aren't worth it.  They are vastly less interesting than the other deals.  The "DF story" just doesn't work as well when things occur in a random order. 

 

The modular deals I think were an effort to add replay value by adding more possibilities.  I really don't see the merit in that though, even simple set of like 6 linear deals offers 120 3 deal combinations, no one plays that much DF. 

 

 

[Buridan]

When the follower equips pony mittens on you and when confronted says "head to the nearest stables and I'll take these off for you", what counts as "stables" in this context? I'm around Solitude so I assumed that was Katla's Farm outside the town (it has a horseshoe map icon). I've tried being in the horse stall beside the horse itself as well as being in the interior called "Solitude Stables" before speaking to my follower, nothing seems to advance this mini-quest.

 

Are there any requirements I'm missing? I can't seem to find any information about this.

 

edit: okay, solved it. coc'd over to a couple of other holds' stables (Whiterun Stables, Riften Stables etc) and the quest proceeds. Seems like Katla's Farm specifically is not included.

 

2nd edit: for future people coming in from google, Hexbolt8 below has the right solution. Also, the carriage horse doesn't count as a horse for the purpose of this quest.

[HexBolt8]

39 minutes ago, Darkwing241 said:

If you are looking for a way out of all that work, it's my opinion that modular deals aren't worth it.

That's a really good point.  Streamlining the deals rather than fixing the modular ones would simply the mod and reduce the effort and maintenance.