Devious Followers - Continued

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, Buridan said:

I'm not sure if my tone is coming across as trashing your work

Sorry. No, you didn't give that impression.

 

What I mean is, what would you want changed most? What would make a difference for you?

 

 

I'm thinking that Gold Control might benefit from changing some of the wired-in behaviors to be willpower controlled.

 

Something like...

 

Willpower 10, if you leave you always get your credit back.

Willpower > 7, you are allowed to ask for more gold.

Willpower > 4, you are allowed to ask your balance.

Willpower 0 or 1, if you hit zero gold, you get gold lockout.

 

I already made a change where you can't leave Gold Control with willpower 0 in 2.11.

[SacredDatura]

Thinking some more about how to put my nebulous feeling into words: I guess I'm just a little uncertain about where gold control currently sits in the overall arc of submission to the devious follower.

 

On the one hand opting in seems to be positioned as a relatively "vanilla" level of interaction, where you're negotiating as equals, as the benefit isn't intrinsic (debt relief, etc.) but more of a QoL thing (don't have to constantly remember to pay the follower). On the other hand the actual terms allow the follower to act in an overtly dominant manner from the get-go - they won't tell you how much you owe during the day, they decide how much you get to hold, etc.

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

What I mean is, what would you want changed most? What would make a difference for you?

I really like your idea of tying gold control behavior to willpower. This way if you enter into it at high willpower it's not very exploitative, but as you get worn down the follower feels more and more comfortable taking advantage.

 

Specifically, maybe at max/10 willpower gold control should be pretty much open and non-exploitative  - the follower will still always tell you about your balance, and you can get full credit back when exiting gold control, though you still have to pay an amount to exit.

[Lupine00]

40 minutes ago, Buridan said:

though you still have to pay an amount to exit.

There is no charge to leave gold control (currently) unless you give up your credit.

There is, however, a minimum balance required, which you can set in the MCM.

 

That too, could vary with willpower, but then configuring it might be a bit harder to explain.

 

41 minutes ago, Buridan said:

Specifically, maybe at max/10 willpower gold control should be pretty much open and non-exploitative  - the follower will still always tell you about your balance, and you can get full credit back when exiting gold control

I think that's exactly what I described above.

 

Tying the chance to exit to willpower is a bit more awkward. The follower makes the decision in the morning and tells you what the terms are for the day, so it can only take account of your willpower at that point (which will be your highest, in all likelihood). So, a spot-willpower of 10 would mean you have a very high chance the follower will let you leave that day.

 

Given the other mechanics, I guess there could be a chance - if your willpower is below 7 or so - that when you ask to leave gold control - and leaving was previously permitted - that the follower will decide to refuse anyway, and modify the leave-allowed state accordingly. But TBH, Gold Control is mostly hard enough to leave.

 

What bothered me with it - from day one - was that at Willpower 10 it's as hard to leave as at Willpower 1.

That doesn't feel right to me.

[Lupine00]

An interesting mechanic - and sadly I don't think it will ever be in DF - is follower Willpower.

 

Do "stuff" to get your follower's willpower down, keep yours up at 9 or 10, and dominate the follower.

 

"Haha! The tables are turned Ms Devious Follower, and you are now the property of the Mighty Dragonborn..."

 

Being able to "win" the Devious Follower game makes it more interesting. The goal is to conquer the follower, and become their Mistress. Fail, and you end up enslaved instead. Rather than being a sort of inevitable one-way trip, if feels more like a battle of wills. It gives you a lot more incentive to take a follower, because you can come out ahead if you do things right.

 

In the hilarious-outcome version, both of you drag each other down and end up as Nazeem's sex toys.

 

 

I really have no idea how to implement that beyond "follower has willpower". Is it about choices? Money? Combat outcomes?

For now, it's just the germ of an idea.

[Hex Bolt]

24 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I really have no idea how to implement that beyond "follower has willpower".

In general it would be things going wrong.  A couple of clear factors are bleedout and rape.  Sure, the PC will be punished, but the DF still went through that.  Now who's looking like a "failed adventurer"?  There might be room for the PC to engineer some combat defeats or at least close calls if it seems like added debt or other punishment justifies shaking the DF's confidence.  If the DF is the tanky type, the PC might be able to avoid a lot of hits and keep getting the DF downed.  If the DF is a mage, trying pulling enemies onto the DF.

 

It would be nice if the DF could get locked in restraints to lower willpower, but DD doesn't seem to work well on NPCs.

 

If the PC can stay at 9-10 willpower for long stretches, the DF's failure to undermine the PC's confidence might be a factor.

 

What about pickpocketing the DF (or can you do that to a follower)?  The PC gets searched of course when the DF discovers the loss, but if the PC ditched the item somewhere then the DF starts getting paranoid about losing stuff.  You probably couldn't have it in-game, but imagine gas-lighting the DF.  "Are you sure you ever had that necklace?  I never saw you wear it."

32 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

In the hilarious-outcome version, both of you drag each other down and end up as Nazeem's sex toys.

That's just sick!!  ?

[Balgin]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

In the hilarious-outcome version, both of you drag each other down and end up as Nazeem's sex toys.

Or as Belethor's new sisters.

[SacredDatura]

55 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

There is no charge to leave gold control (currently) unless you give up your credit.

There is, however, a minimum balance required, which you can set in the MCM.

Ahhh right, my mistake. Got it confused in my mind and thought that was just the cost to leave.

17 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I really have no idea how to implement that beyond "follower has willpower". Is it about choices? Money? Combat outcomes?

I've been playing with the Lucien Flavius follower mod in my non-DF setup currently. Lucien doesn't actually level up like normal, but once a day you can train him if your skills are higher than his, or if you have a spellbook for a spell he doesn't know. That could be one way to do it - you accrue credit/reduce debt and erode follower willpower for every training session. (Lucien in general is an interesting inversion of the usual follower formula, as he's the one paying you to bring him to cool places around Skyrim. Coming fresh off a few DF-centric games, I did idly wonder what it would be like to be the devious follower in that case.)

 

Or perhaps it could be tied into the gambling game? Like if you roll a six you could take the gold... or try to slap a device onto your follower. Follower could then take a willpower hit, or accept the device.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

That's just sick!!  ?

Credit to Kimy for that one.

[DonQuiWho]

Reverse the tables on the DF?  Without undue complexity?  OK:

 

Create a DF Willpower/Equivalent variable.  Set at 10 on Follower becoming DF

 

Create a 'DF Willpower Poison Potion' requiring set ingredients, which PC needs to collect, with a periodic chance rolled that the DF will detect that PC is stashing them in inventory, and if found, penalties are added to the PC.  Only needs the suspicion that that is their purpose ?

 

Once PC has enough required ingredients, create potion by Alchemy

 

Then, PC required to reverse pickpocket the DF 

 

On success, instant effect, reduces DF Follower Willpower by value (option for player set value from variable slider in MCM? - allows for repetition of task before actual success)

 

If DF Willpower < Follwer Willpower, reduce all DF abilities to 0, add full set of restraints (excl movement slowdowns), and give PC opportunity to make them available for sale to <whoever>

 

If DF Willpower still > Follwer Willpower,  Rinse and repeat ingredient collection/potion creation/reverse pickpocket

 

Added benefit that it can become harder to do,, the more PC Willpower reduces.  A sort of built in, optional, incentivised, race against time

 

FWIW (probably tuppence ? )

[Scrab]

Its not that easy

 

For one reverse pickpocketing isnt aviable while the Follower is still with you, you needed to leave him and then do it which is somewhat unimmersive or enable reverse pickpocketing for this follower alone which might come with other issues - code and gameplay wise

 

Next to the "how do you get the PC into a dominant position in first place" theres also the issue of "what do you do with a submissive follower" and "how does the follower get back into a dominant position". Unlike the few other slavery mods you cant just lock the follower into a cage for X amount of days, let him out when you feel like it and lock him back into the cage later

You have that follower around with you all the time so you kind of want to interact with him too Id assume

 

DF being build around as the follower being basically a hireling doesnt make things any easier as well

[Lupine00]

It's really like, "if we had some bread, we could have bread and jam, if we had some jam."

 

One approach would be to add mechanics based on you keeping follower boredom low while not losing willpower.

Once you've sustained that for a while, "games" would start to unlock.

Games are like the game the follower plays, but in reverse. You have to do a quest to set up the situation... Pay-off inn-keepers, persuade Jarls, bribe stable-masters, obtain the necessary devious devices, and all the while keep the follower in the dark.

 

Then in certain circumstances you get a chance to spring the game on the follower.

Execute the quest steps correctly and you advance the follower enslavement quest.

 

Repeat for other games while keeping boredom low and willpower high.

 

And then a finisher quest to finally put the follower in their place.

e.g. Get them to strip and wear DDs, then visit various locations and NPCs.

 

This time the preparations are more difficult than before.

 

And so on... Sure, just make those quests and it's done  

 

Except once you're done, you still have to make the entire system of follower enslavement.

Or not.

 

But it was just an idle thought bubble. I don't think DF can support it. Maybe some better architected mod, in some newer shinier TES game?

[Reesewow]

Alternative idea to the "getting even with the DF" theme could be for it to not really involve the player dominating the DF, but instead involve the PC orchestrating their current DF's downfall from the shadows.

 

Idea being that a "strong" PC could cause a series of events that puts the current DF in serious debt to a another current follower. This could both be a way to get some much needed "revenge" and to swap out your current follower for a new one without paying out all deals/debts or using the MCM menu.  Mechanically it could be the same as being "sold" to a new DF, except the current DF is doing it to try to dig out of their own debt and the PC secretly helped set it up to happen.

 

I think that may fit the overall mod better than a dominant PC enslaving the DF, as the PC is still in a neutral or submissive role but is strong enough to secretly betray her current follower, even to little advantage to herself.

 

 

Idea on how it could flow:

 

1. PC talks to a current follower who is *not* the DF and picks a dialogue option that initiates the "revenge/swap" quest.  There could be various conditions for this dialogue to appear, such as significant debt levels or enslavement status/high enough willpower/low enough follower boredom and fatigue.
2. PC convinces the follower that they would do a much better job being in control of the situation than the current DF, and that they have a plan to put them in their place.  Dialogue could take place in *whispers* to hand-wave away why the DF standing 3 feet away doesn't overhear the conversation.
3. The player needs to cause the current DF to lose all their money in some manner, and then initiate an event that causes the DF to owe a large sum.
4. Once the DF is in a terrible position, facing possible jail time/enslavement and is likely currently getting railed by an enraged NPC - the non DF could step in and offer to pay off the DF's debts, for a price.
5. The non-DF could "buy" the PC's debts for a fraction of their value, and take on the balance as debt between the former DF and the new DF.  End result is the PC having a new DF (but is in the same position debt/deal wise) and the former DF is now essentially on the same level as the PC, at least for a time.
6. Former DF could go through a period of "simulated" DF gameplay - such as taking on a selection of "deals" initially (DDs/games ect).  Over time, the former DF could dig themselves out of their financial hole and buy their freedom, returning to the status of a regular follower.

 

 

• There could be various scenarios that the player could choose to compromise the DF and fulfill the "revenge" part of the feature (IMO most should offer the possibility of the DF getting raped, but ideally with some way for the PC to avoid scenes they don't like, such as if the DF is male) - random ideas:
  • party visits a city and manages to pin a serious crime on the DF without them suspecting.  The guard take the party in and threaten the DF with serious jail time.  The guards could begin "punishing" the prisoner on the spot (probably a good spot for a player dialogue option to avoid SL scenes here if they would result in scenes they aren't into).  Non-DF steps in on the player's signal and offers to pay out the DF's bounty.
  • party visits a stables and causes the death of a horse, and the owner blames the DF.  As horses are serious money (especially in a SLS game), the DF is looking at major jail time or enslavement.  Optional creature content before the non-DF steps in to "save" the DF by paying for the dead horse.
  • prospective DF says they know of a few lowlifes that could help with the plan.  A trap is organized where the party gets news of a location with lots of easy loot, and camps outside before entering.  DF sneaks off to get an early start on looting, and is captured by the "bandits" waiting in ambush.  PC and non-DF follower head in and find the DF captured/being abused, and the non-DF offers to buy back their "friend" and leave peacefully.

 

 

Scenarios available could also have various prerequisites if that would help them be more believable.  Perhaps the city scenario is only available if the PC is a Thane in that city for example.  There could also be scenarios based on various other factions the player is a part of as a reward for joining that faction, and to make it more believable that the PC could orchestrate such a revenge with no finances.

[Hex Bolt]

On the subject of swapping which follower is the devious one, would it be fairly easy to add a feature to force the swap?  I've seen people ask how to change which one is the DF after it's too late, and that could be a remedy.  I could also imagine doing a manual daily rotation using a swap feature, to simulate all followers being devious and they take turns which one abuses you on a given day.

[Clea Strange]

I have Chaos mode activated but with the daily cost to pay the DF 600 gold a day but the follower only charges me around 244 a day instead of 600 a day that I chose. Is their a reason its not charging around 600 gold a day but is only charging 244 a day. If the DF charges only 244 a day then that would be easy to pay for unless I'm missing something

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, Reesewow said:

I think that may fit the overall mod better than a dominant PC enslaving the DF, as the PC is still in a neutral or submissive role but is strong enough to secretly betray her current follower, even to little advantage to herself.

It's curious that there are so many different ideas of how the scenario could work. There are clearly a lot of different possible stories, and everyone has their favorite.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

would it be fairly easy to add a feature to force the swap?

Probably. 

 

Something like every follower who isn't excluded gains the dialog:

 

"I want to talk to you about deals and things."

 

And if you use it, the dialog closes and when you open again, they are the DF master and have the dialogs, the old follower loses them.

 

There really isn't an overwhelming technical reason to limit the dialogs to only one follower, but the dialogs have alias checks everywhere and those can't trivially be disposed of.

When it comes to the punishments and such, you probably don't want the followers all teaming on you.

 

There is currently only one alias, and there are AI packages on it that the follower needs. It's easier to move followers in and out of it than creating duplicates or variants.

[Darkwing241]

I'm not going to post reply to any particular post on here, I don't want anyone to think that their specific ideas are bad, or their kinks invalid, but I think all these "lets make the PC the trickster and the DF the dupe" ideas would be a downright terrible additions to DF.

 

Many of them are well though out and would make for interesting mods on their own but pretty much all of them directly counter the narrative the DF has so far been going for.

 

DF is about the follower tricking and taking advantage of the PC.  There are a lot of versions of that narrative, but every time the PC tricks the DF it is a huge blow to establishing the DF as being clever.  Some of the idea's of the PC tricking the DF into sexually compromising situations is a shattering blow to any illusion of the DF being in control.

 

Default Skyrim followers already are sex slaves.  You control where they walk, if they die, how they dress and (with a basic matchmaker mod) which horses they have to fuck without complaint.  Trying to counter all that power and make the PC feel helpless is already a big enough mountain to climb.  I'm using DF to give agency to my follower not take it away. 

[Reesewow]

2 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

Many of them are well though out and would make for interesting mods on their own but pretty much all of them directly counter the narrative the DF has so far been going for.

I agree such scenarios run counter to (or at least stretch) the overall theme of DF - and honestly it would be the work of just a moment and a bit of roleplay to take "revenge" on a DF.  Pause DF in the MCM menu, strip them and slap a bunch of devices on them, and go nuts with matchmaker/defeat/aroused creatures/insertxmod here.  Unfortunately doing that will never be as interesting or immersive as a scenario built into DF itself to tell that story, if the author thinks it is a story worth being told.

 

I would argue that if a feature is optional and doesn't infringe upon how users enjoy the mod, then I don't think it would be a terrible addition.  A bit feature-creepy perhaps, and perhaps better added as an addon mod that ties into DF as a master (altho that takes up valuable mod slots), but still a worthwhile addition to expand the mod's story.  The key point being optional - you could totally destroy a mod's narrative if something like this was unavoidable and I think that should be the last thing a mod like DF should do.   

 

IMO the most important question would be if the mod author finds the ideas interesting enough to actually bring the feature into existence.  The rest is just us users pitching ideas that we think may fit, which is a fun exercise in its own right.

 

OFC there's an argument that time spent on features outside of a mod's scope is time better spent on the core mod experience, but IMO the more important part is if the author is enjoying the creation process.

[Lupine00]

6 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

I'm not going to post reply to any particular post on here, I don't want anyone to think that their specific ideas are bad, or their kinks invalid, but I think all these "lets make the PC the trickster and the DF the dupe" ideas would be a downright terrible additions to DF.

I don't think you need to worry about me adding any of them tomorrow  

 

I don't have time to do those things just now, or as suggested at the start, ever.

Most of the things I talk about I don't have time or intention to do, but it's interesting to see what the space of ideas is.

I have a fairly well defined public plan. It isn't totally set in stone, but I don't deviate from it without consideration.

 

Sometimes an idea might feed back into something immediately useful, and more often they don't.

There's no limit on what others can get inspired by and go off and make some great new mod that we'll all find invaluable.

Without discussions that some people were quite ... worried by, DF probably wouldn't exist.

 

I don't believe in having a narrow focus on discussion.

If we could somehow magically only talk about good ideas, that would be an incredible oracle, but we can't know what things are going to be good, or valuable, or horribly divisive, without having those conversations.

 

It's fun to dream right? That's part of the game.

Something happens, and we imagine some scenario that the game didn't really deliver, and can't deliver with the code we have in it, but that scenario is really fun. If there an easy way to make it possible? Sometimes others will have insights that don't occur to us personally.

[A Little Kitten]

Hi,

could you make followers to refuse giving jewels and expensive items ? in comparism value/weight

someting like

value / weight >= 1 000 ,- it is an expensive item

point is to make the follower keep expensive items(pretty much just jewels, maybe super extreme hardcore dagger) without refusing to trade weapons and armor.

 

for example (red grenade) v= 150 / w= 0,1 = 1 500 ExpensePoints

hope i explained it well enough.

 

Then would be great to make follower sell whatever she has to vendors around. (not sure how it works but INeed mod already does something like that ? The follower is buying food from vendors around, if she has the coin to buy it)

 

And finally make paying a dept directly from pc inventory into followers inventory, so we're not trading with immaginary coins anymore.

 

Dont forget to give septims weight (0,001 to make 1/0,001 = 1 000expensivepoints) SL Survival already adds cons this weight.

 

Dont have to worry about pickpocketing that follower, if you crouch it still offers only Talk.

 

Please let me know if you like the ideas.

 

[slvsaris]

About those times when the player accidentally hits the follower in battle, what if after getting too may of those, the follower has enough and decides to punish the player?  This would not be often, and could be one of the only times the follower does not give the player a choice in the matter.  Maybe the follower saves the punishment for an inn, or a player home.  Could be they just hogtie the player for an in game hour or so as they lecture them about not hitting them in battle.  Maybe they lock the player in some zaz stuff if any is around.  Not looking for the punishment to go on too long, sitting in a cage forever is not fun.  But it sure would make me very aware of where my followers are in battle!

 

Just a random thought I had after hearing both my current followers yell at me for hitting them even though it was their own damn fault for jumping in fromt of me as I was letting an arrow fly. LOL

 

I guess I don't know if there is already something in there for this, but felt if there is, maybe it should be a bit more harsh (and fun).  I know if someone kept shooting me in the ass with an arrow I would be a bit upset

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, A Little Kitten said:

Then would be great to make follower sell whatever she has to vendors around. (not sure how it works but INeed mod already does something like that ? The follower is buying food from vendors around, if she has the coin to buy it)

I think you mean NFF.

 

I wanted this since forever, but it's complicated, not least by three different follower frameworks, and the fourth alternative: no follower framework.

 

I'm working (rather slowly I'm afraid) on new debt scaling mechanics.

That, and some bug fixes are coming.

 

1 hour ago, slvsaris said:

About those times when the player accidentally hits the follower in battle

This comes up periodically.

It would be hard to make this feature not-annoying, but probably not that hard.

 

There are just other things that could be done that are more fun.

It's not like this idea is not interesting, but it's neither a universal game-changer, nor that exciting.

The best bit would surely be the dialog aspect. Ways to get punished by the follower are really only a lot of fun if the punishment is novel.

And novel punishments could be used more broadly.

 

I've ended up spending more time on debt-scaling than I planned or expected, but - for me - it's going to help with a pervasive problem in DF, which is tweaking daily debt for balance and challenge. I hope it will be well received and understood, but it's hard to predict with these things.

[A Little Kitten]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I think you mean NFF.

 

I wanted this since forever, but it's complicated, not least by three different follower frameworks, and the fourth alternative: no follower framework.

 

I'm working (rather slowly I'm afraid) on new debt scaling mechanics.

That, and some bug fixes are coming.

 

Dont know what is nff, the mod is called INeed

anyway having gold real in inventories would be really helpfull, instead of *Puf* your gold is gone..

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, A Little Kitten said:

Dont know what is nff, the mod is called INeed

anyway having gold real in inventories would be really helpfull, instead of *Puf* your gold is gone..

I'm not going to add a weight changer for gold to DF because there are standalone mods for that, and SLS, and SL Adventures also have it; SkyTweak probably does it too.

 

NFF allows followers to sell loot for  you.

iNeed makes them buy food (optionally).

 

I don't really know what you mean about imaginary coins.

DF debt is accumulated, then you must pay the follower ... with actual coins.

Unless you are in gold control mode, in which case the follower adjusts your carried gold when you change cell.

 

Perhaps you can explain just this one issue more thoroughly?

 

If you mean "money the follower takes from you is not in the follower inventory", then there's an obvious reason for that.

If it was there, you could just take it back off them, or pick pocket it off them for fun.

 

 

The follower is still carrying that gold, but they hide it from you! You will never find where they hide it. It's a very secret place!  

But seriously, having the follower keep that gold on them would add nothing but bugs and coding problems to stop those bugs, with little in the way of benefits.

[Darkwing241]

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

There are just other things that could be done that are more fun.

It's not like this idea is not interesting, but it's neither a universal game-changer, nor that exciting.

A while back I vaguely remember a conversation about kickoffs.  A tipping point where the follower stops being a regular follower and starts being a DF.  It's pretty impossible to do a inner monologue for the DF but I always imagined some of it.

 

At the start the follower really is a follower concerned about follower things (with the addition of getting payed a wage.) The follower wants a competent PC, and to go on successful adventures.  After a while the DF's goals kind of shift.  They still want money but they really want to make the PC less competent (bondage/hamstringing gold income/behavior rules).  Pretty much everything the DF does runs counter to the obvious desires of a normal follower, so there must be a tipping point where the DF stops seeing the PC as respectable person and starts seeing her as a potential slave. 

 

What would change someone's opinion like that?  A sudden realization that this "adventuring" thing is either not going to be long run profitable or long run safe.  You know what is safe? Having a slave!

 

In the past I have used Defeat + follower lives to try to manufacture this scenario.  Where a crisis moment that tips the gold balance and suddenly you are accumulating debt interest that you can't catch up on, leading to deal, leading to bondage preventing gold income, leading to slavery.

 

DCL and some other DD mods also offer a crisis moment. (the DF just can't unsee the PC in all bondage, and tries to trap them in debt!).  YPS fashion addiction or possibly drug addiction are other options.

 

I'm not sure how it would be possible to implement some sort of system where a "crisis" could trigger an increase in the difficulty of the DF mod.

 

"Hey if we are going to get beat to hell I deserve a raise!" gold upkeep increase

 

"Stop me if this sounds weird, but you looked kind of hot in the arm binder" deal selection becomes more bondage focused

 

"Ouch! if you are swing that sword around like a clumsy idiot I really wish you would pay more attention to my safety!" deals become more focused on pushing the PC into non-combat/healing roles and putting combat restricting restraints on the PC

 

Reading this back, I'm not sure any of it would have enough impact to justify the time to make it work, but it's a cool idea, and one that makes a lot of sense.