Devious Followers - Continued

[Hex Bolt]

On furniture, there's also the problem of where it comes from, since the follower can't just pull a pillory or whatnot out of a backpack, and requiring a third party mod that pre-places furniture is always to going to leave some people unhappy. 

 

There is limited potential for punishment scenes that don't use furniture, such as whipping or verbal abuse while the PC is in the bound kneeling or bending over position.  Used sparingly so that the scenes don't become repetitious, that could add something to the experience and possibly provide another way for the DF to reduce boredom.  There's a potential link to SL Disparity if the scene involves "beatings", and the possibility for interaction if the DF is trying to coerce your agreement to something or to get you to admit your failures, with opportunities to acquiesce during the scene or refuse and suffer a pain debuff. 

[Lupine00]

6 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

There is limited potential for punishment scenes that don't use furniture, such as whipping or verbal abuse while the PC is in the bound kneeling or bending over position. 

People used to ask Lozeak to add beatings quite often. It comes up less often now. I guess people are not always coming from the background of SD+ or DCL dominant follower now. SD+ still has a lot of mind-share, but maybe not to the extent it used to. With so many things getting added, you have choices on how to add power-play to your game without going as far as SD+ does. For some, SL Adventures is enough, for others SLS, and for some others, both of those and DF, and DiD and who knows what more? There are more choices now than there used to be, but most of those mods are not about taking a huge number of beatings. Same with Slaverun Reloaded - with Kenjoka MIA, it's not as hot as it once was.

 

I think there's a place for a deal with beatings in it, and by making it a deal, people who don't want it can disable it. What else would be in that deal? I'm not sure. Spanking maybe?

[hexenhaus]

I don't know exactly what it was but the guard follower was broken. Maybe it wasn't DFC itself but the combination of Troubles of Heroine, EFF and DFC...

 

The mod was paused as the guard started following and unpausing did not help to trigger a new enslavement, as my PC already had debt and a follower and accepting enslavement did not help either. The Devious Follower I had was the brutish orc from Troubles of Heroine, so I wouldn't rule out some dialogue conflict with the former mentioned mods.

 

Reset or fixing Followers did not help nor did my follower show the debt dialogue again.

 

In the end I had to uninstall, reload, cleansave and re-install DFC, but now all does work again and I had no problem registering ("click me!") my follower again.; the guard was gone and so were the enchanted handcuffs... and praise be the debug buttons, to get back to my former status ?

[firepunch1]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I think there's a place for a deal with beatings in it, and by making it a deal, people who don't want it can disable it. What else would be in that deal? I'm not sure. Spanking maybe?

There'd have to be some lasting effects lest the deal be too easy. The lack of consequence is why stuff like whipping and the like have little to no impact (you just immediately shrug it off once it's over and the marks fade.)

 

 

[Lupine00]

43 minutes ago, firepunch1 said:

There'd have to be some lasting effects lest the deal be too easy. The lack of consequence is why stuff like whipping and the like have little to no impact (you just immediately shrug it off once it's over and the marks fade.)

If you have SLD you can dial up your own consequences - as already suggested. Alas, not everyone is going to have it or do that.

 

SLS will also cause willpower loss for spanks, which DF can easily do itself in a deal based around that. Beatings could be worse.

 

That's rather obvious though. Any nice ideas for "lasting effects" ?

[firepunch1]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Any nice ideas for "lasting effects" ?

Not sure how severe the beating deal is supposed to be but a couple of ideas:

 

Dazed: Hits to the (head?) can cause you to trip more often for a short while, amplified further if wearing high heels (maybe some sort of visual distortion akin to skooma too.)

 

Winded: Could leave the player gasping for air, severly reducing the effectiveness of blocking all weapons of the two-handed class (plays nicely with the amputation implementation from SLS and stun/stagger down scenario from Defeat.) Not limiting movement speed though, at least not a lot, that's just anti-fun IMO. It's still a game that you're supposed to keep playing afterwards.  

 

Black Eye: Sexlab animations are more likely to use the "aggresive" tag for some time as your assailant/partner thinks you get off on rough play due to your visible injuries. Some NPCs might take pity on you and give you some gold or keys (through force-greet or something else.)

 

Trauma: Make you more susceptible to unarmed damage, effectively making all brawls harder. Less likely to refuse deals in the future (last part might be too similiar to willpower.)

 

Disturbed: There's a lot of mods that rely on how much sleep you can get in order to not deteriorate further, could limit hours of effective sleep.

 

Masochism: (tie-in with STA?) your character could eventually start getting off on it and, if depraved enough, ask for beatings without player input (triggered when you're just talking to the follower for some other reason, like to trade items) which could end in any of the other effects being applied. Eventually unable to orgasm during consensual animations (SLSO tie-in.)

 

Adrenaline: Timed buff to both attack speed and damage, followed by a similiar debuff afterwards which lasts a bit longer than the buff. (Take advantage of it and clear that dungeon right now! Oh, did the buff run out during the word-wall boss? Should've been faster.)

 

Overkill: Due to what you've been through, it's harder to hold back, brawls might end in the player comitting murder (at some defined HP threshold NPCs have a chance of being executed by your unarmed attacks.) Quests which rely on you to "scare" some sense into someone through a brawl will be more likely to fail as a result. E.g. hired muscle from the companions, the riften shake-downs from the thieves guild, and all the other ones that make use of a similiar scenario.

 

Mercy: Follower is merciful and only delivers open handed hits/slaps (lucky scenario, no consequence.) If you're somewhat subservient to them e.g. already wearing items they've given you through other deals this outcome could be more likely to occur.

 

Beauty: Possible YPS Fashion tie-in, could use it's system to smudge your makeup/mascara/lip gloss and reduce your speechcraft by some amount as a result, or otherwise replicate the effect without that mod by applying some smudged face overlay and reducing speechcraft.

 

Degradation: Follower uses silent dialogue during the beating urging the player to say bad things about themselves through the STA speak function, causing rapid resistance loss but no other negative effect is applied. Silence/refusal adds a more severe effect instead. Very similiar to what can happen during rape with STA active.

 

Impaired memory: "How did I recite that magic again...? Can't remember.. my head hurts" Restoration spells have a chance to fail on cast, hope you weren't relying on that to not get downed during dragged-out fights! Essentially forces the player to switch up their style for a bit. Use that shield you're planning to disenchant later, or equip that bow that's been rotting away in your inventory to keep some distance for now.

 

 

[Darkwing241]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

If you have SLD you can dial up your own consequences - as already suggested. Alas, not everyone is going to have it or do that.

 

SLS will also cause willpower loss for spanks, which DF can easily do itself in a deal based around that. Beatings could be worse.

 

That's rather obvious though. Any nice ideas for "lasting effects" ?

I'm not sure there has to be concrete "lasting effects" the early stage of the "say you are a slut deal" doesn't really have any lasting effects and I think it's one of the better deals in the game.  Sometimes simply cosmetic is best, in fact I actually think that MOST deals should add things that are simply cosmetic at the lower stages. "here do these things that don't really cause you any difficulty" is a pretty logical first step into slavery.  

 

The Confess Your Sins Deal

 

"I like my companions to be honest and true, before we rest I want you to confess your sins to me and ask for forgiveness"

 

-stage 1: Before rest (any rest? Inn? time of day?)  open a dialogue with the DF with a random assortment of follower related sins "I let you get hurt" "I forgot to pay you" "I spend all my time worrying about money (you did pay)"  "I masturbated" "I stole"

 

"You haven't learned, you should do penance to prove your sincerity"

 

-stage 2: When confessing the follower will give you penance, offering a random penance each has resistant and meek responses. 

 

"give me 50 gold pieces and I will deliver it to the temple"

"Let me put you over my knee" 

 

(I'm not sure about the exact execution of stage 2, but some combination of PC dialogue choices that result in in financial or willpower loss)

 

"You brat you never learn, you will receive a spanking every night "

 

-stage 3: in stead of starting a dialogue it will simply be 'your spanking time'  the follower will then accuse you of various (definitely invented) impurity.

 

"Admit it all you thought about today was masturbating, That's why you don't get anything done!" "Ouch! Yes! Yes! I just want to touch myself!"

"I saw you admiring yourself in that outfit, you just want to put your tits on display!"  "Ouch! Yes! Yes! I just want people to look at my tits!"

"admit it you'd be much better of working in the tavern than being an adventurer" "Ouch! Yes! Yes! I'm a terrible adventurer"

 

 

TLDR: The DF cements themself as your moral superior and uses their position to gaslight/beat you into nightly self degradation and confessions of harlotry

[Hex Bolt]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Any nice ideas for "lasting effects" ?

One mod (Spank that Ass?) adds a Pain debuff with a decent duration, which lowers the recipient's health, magicka, and stamina.  That's just an idea.  You probably wouldn't want to exactly duplicate another mod's debuff, but I'm in total agreement with @firepunch1 that punishments should have a lasting effect.  The player can shrug off a punishment scene, but a debuff that lasts for hours will "hurt".  Yes this basically duplicates what SL Disparity could do, but it avoids requiring SLD.  You might also couple the debuff with a temporary lowering of willpower.  After a punishment, you're not in the best state of mind to say no to the DF, though that will change as the pain fades. 

 

9 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I think there's a place for a deal with beatings in it, and by making it a deal, people who don't want it can disable it. What else would be in that deal? 

You know, I hadn't actually though of punishments as a deal.  I'd been thinking of it as a toggled option for an event triggered on player failure at a task or DF boredom getting too high.  The toggle would let the player decide if this DF can be physically abusive.  However, I like making it a deal, which fits the "devious" model of slowly trading away control to the DF.  A physical punishment deal could even have stages, with worse debuffs per stage.

 

9 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Spanking maybe?

Maybe.  That could be stage one of a punishment deal, mostly humiliation with only a little pain.  Personally I think spanking scenes are hot and I'd like to see that in DFC, but I'm a little reluctant for two reasons.  First, I'm only aware of one good spanking animation, Rydin's overknee spanking.  There a decent one with a chair, but I dislike magically appearing furniture.  If spankings are too frequent you'll be seeing the same animation unless there are others available.  I could live with that though.

 

Second, spanking can be a reward.  In StA a masochistic character wants to be spanked.  Spanking can be requested as a reward in Submissive Lola, and there are probably other mods in which spanking is a reward.  How would DFC address that?  Would it be enough to call it a "rough" or "harsh" non-playful spanking that the PC definitely wouldn't enjoy?  A "nice" spanking taken too far would become painful.  Or is it better to have a toggle so the player can switch off spankings if that's not a good punishment because the PC wants them?

 

With a bit of consideration, spanking might fit as stage one of a multi-stage punishment deal, or as a separate deal.

 

EDIT:  Borrowing an idea from Submissive Lola, sometimes the DF might require you to ask for a spanking from another NPC for extra embarrassment.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Borrowing an idea from Submissive Lola, sometimes the DF might require you to ask for a spanking from another NPC for extra embarrassment.

I certainly want this. I still can't figure why it isn't a built-in STA feature.

 

I proposed a spanking "deal" some time ago now. That would include a certain amount of forced spanking, that escalates with deal-level.

 

I'd like to have spanking in furniture, but the only way that could get in DF is via an SL animation with a built-in furniture, which is a bit unimmersive, but I guess better than nothing.

 

5 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Second, spanking can be a reward.  In StA a masochistic character wants to be spanked. 

They can, and that comes back to how the STA pain buff works. For them it is a buff, not a debuff.

It still eats away at your willpower though.

An STA masochist can expect to erode a couple of willpower points every day just to maintain their pain level.

Depending on your configuration the exact amount might vary considerably, so it could be a lot of willpower for some players.

 

In a context where you have other deals, it can be a hazard even when you get a buff.

I don't think that's really a problem.

I don't see a huge problem if a deal has some beneficial aspects. A deal doesn't have to be awful, in some ways the more seductive they are, the better.

 

A brutal punishment beating shouldn't be a beneficial experience though.

Long before I wrote SLD, I felt that "things that change numbers" are less fun and less immersive than things that work in a more obvious visible way.

So, for me, while a stat modifier is a valid consequence, I don't think it should be the only consequence.

I'd like to do something a bit more immersive, but it's a question of time, complexity, and what other features can be leveraged to help deliver it.

 

5 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

You know, I hadn't actually though of punishments as a deal.

Punishments aren't the deal, spanking and beating are the deal. They can be punishments, or simply ... be.

 

 

So, yes, there's a conceptual difference in the intent of the beating or spanking. If delivered simply to humiliate and dominate they aren't a real punishment, and that's the deal scenario. And if the PC is enjoying it - getting a STA buff - then that's perfect.

 

And then you've got spanks on request, which are similar.

 

 

However, genuine punishments - ones where the PC is reduced to a pathetic quivering heap - are something else. They might work a lot differently if you have high willpower vs low. It would be nice to have something that becomes a real problem at low willpower.

 

e.g.

At high willpower, the PC is angry and bitter after the beating, and may be rude to the follower.

At low willpower, the PC is totally at the mercy of the follower's demands.

 

This starts to head of into Devious Mind Break territory. I don't feel DF has the tools to implement anything great here yet, but with more dominant follower features, it might.

[Hex Bolt]

5 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I'd like to have spanking in furniture, but the only way that could get in DF is via an SL animation with a built-in furniture, which is a bit unimmersive, but I guess better than nothing.

I was thinking about that.  In the right location having the right furniture might not be too jarring.  The Nibbles Spanking animation with the spanker seated on a chair (which is a decent animation) could look fairly natural if it is only used in an inn, dwelling, or locations with chairs around. 

[TheSimilier]

I've been wondering, but has the idea of a possible optional feature come up yet where the follower forces a submissive player to change their name or add something to it similar to the way Slaverun does it? Maybe tie in with the idea that different types of follower treat the player differently from the blog, for example a housecarl forcing an enslaved thane to change their name.

[gravediggers240]

Having a few issues with editing the Device Controller's json, anyone know what I'm doing wrong here? I like harnesses, don't like corsets. My solution was to copy paste the details of the harnesses over the corsets, so that way when zad_deviouscorsets got called on it'd just throw a harness at me. When in game, it just doesn't ever give me a device. Device Controller didn't break entirely, it'd give me other things but just not harnesses (or corsets, for that matter). I know it's probably something super simple and just due to my lack of experience, can anyone correct me here? (No I did not accidentally delete a comma or a bracket, first thing I checked)

My adventure didn't start there though, as I didn't know that I could just edit LDC's devices. Took ages but I got Creation Kit running and willing to load everything, eventually I found Dflowdealb, and then its Ddeal script. This function caught my eye as a fix;
Function AddCorset()
    LDC.AddDeviceByKeyword(LDC.Libs.zad_deviouscorset)
EndFunction

My first solution was to change deviouscorset to deviousharness and call it a day, zad_deviousharness exists and is defined after all. Saved it in Notepad++, and then once more in Creation Kit after double checking my work("work"). I got the bondage deal aaaaand it still gave corsets. What did I do wrong here? I hadn't used Creation Kit before this, so this may too be a simple beginner mistake. My first question is (hopefully) the better option and easier to answer, but I'm curious as to why my first approach didn't work.

Edit: If I spawn a harness that fits the requirements Follower won't add more currency, it just doesn't want to spawn one in. Hmm, maybe I'm breaking something else by changing that? Maybe what I need is a combination of both, change that function and the json. Will give 2nd update

Edit2: Nope, doesn't change anything. Hmmm. Re initializing LDC through the MCM doesn't help, fit harness/corset button doesn't do anything either. Others work, though.

[SacredDatura]

(First off I want to say I am absolutely love this mod. Been trying a healslut/supportslut playstyle with this, which works really well.)

 

A few questions/comments:

 

1. I am curious, at what level do you guys set the numbers? I've noticed that on slightly-higher-than-default settings it's actually not too difficult to outpace the Devious Follower once you get the kill-loot-sell loop rolling. I would like a level of upkeep where I am slowly losing ground against the debt despite my best effort, but I am also wary about pushing the sliders so far up that I just immediately drown in debt. Do you guys go with a low initial amount plus hefty incremental increases?

 

2. What mods do you guys recommend to go along with DF? A lot of the others I've tried (Defeat, Kidnapped etc) don't really gel well with DF - not in terms of mod conflict but more that the others tend to be about unpredictability and sudden reversals of fortune, while DF is (to me) more about slowly sinking into the quicksand. Both aspects of the dubious-consent kink I'm really into, but maybe not at the same time.

 

3. Which follower do you like to use as a Devious Follower? I've been really enjoying Sven from Riverwood in this role - you can get the DF train rolling with him on the morning of Day Two, and he is canonically already kind of an underhanded slimeball, so it's easy to build a narrative of him tricking some poor naive adventurer. Plus as a Nord with heavy armor doing sick finishers with a big axe it really does often feels like he is the protagonist of the story and I'm just the tag-along, which is great.

 

4. I wish gold control mode had some intermediate steps. The penalties and restrictions are pretty harsh, and I the player like them that way, but I'm not sure why the Dragonborn in-universe thinks it's ever a good idea.

[DayTri]

21 minutes ago, Buridan said:

(First off I want to say I am absolutely love this mod. Been trying a healslut/supportslut playstyle with this, which works really well.)

 

A few questions/comments:

 

1. I am curious, at what level do you guys set the numbers? I've noticed that on slightly-higher-than-default settings it's actually not too difficult to outpace the Devious Follower once you get the kill-loot-sell loop rolling. I would like a level of upkeep where I am slowly losing ground against the debt despite my best effort, but I am also wary about pushing the sliders so far up that I just immediately drown in debt. Do you guys go with a low initial amount plus hefty incremental increases?

 

2. What mods do you guys recommend to go along with DF? A lot of the others I've tried (Defeat, Kidnapped etc) don't really gel well with DF - not in terms of mod conflict but more that the others tend to be about unpredictability and sudden reversals of fortune, while DF is (to me) more about slowly sinking into the quicksand. Both aspects of the dubious-consent kink I'm really into, but maybe not at the same time.

 

3. Which follower do you like to use as a Devious Follower? I've been really enjoying Sven from Riverwood in this role - you can get the DF train rolling with him on the morning of Day Two, and he is canonically already kind of an underhanded slimeball, so it's easy to build a narrative of him tricking some poor naive adventurer. Plus as a Nord with heavy armor doing sick finishers with a big axe it really does often feels like he is the protagonist of the story and I'm just the tag-along, which is great.

 

4. I wish gold control mode had some intermediate steps. The penalties and restrictions are pretty harsh, and I the player like them that way, but I'm not sure why the Dragonborn in-universe thinks it's ever a good idea.

 

1. Actually I set the numbers more favorable - deals clear lots of debt and at expiry can be paid off for less than the debt they clear. This way I actually take more deals and have more fun, because with default settings I just get gold fast enough that I don't need deals. With easier settings I actually take the deals but sometimes mess up.

 

2. Anything that equips stuff is good, because it forces you to find a follower and go in debt.

 

[gravediggers240]

2 hours ago, Buridan said:

(First off I want to say I am absolutely love this mod. Been trying a healslut/supportslut playstyle with this, which works really well.)

 

A few questions/comments:

 

1. I am curious, at what level do you guys set the numbers? I've noticed that on slightly-higher-than-default settings it's actually not too difficult to outpace the Devious Follower once you get the kill-loot-sell loop rolling. I would like a level of upkeep where I am slowly losing ground against the debt despite my best effort, but I am also wary about pushing the sliders so far up that I just immediately drown in debt. Do you guys go with a low initial amount plus hefty incremental increases?

 

2. What mods do you guys recommend to go along with DF? A lot of the others I've tried (Defeat, Kidnapped etc) don't really gel well with DF - not in terms of mod conflict but more that the others tend to be about unpredictability and sudden reversals of fortune, while DF is (to me) more about slowly sinking into the quicksand. Both aspects of the dubious-consent kink I'm really into, but maybe not at the same time.

 

3. Which follower do you like to use as a Devious Follower? I've been really enjoying Sven from Riverwood in this role - you can get the DF train rolling with him on the morning of Day Two, and he is canonically already kind of an underhanded slimeball, so it's easy to build a narrative of him tricking some poor naive adventurer. Plus as a Nord with heavy armor doing sick finishers with a big axe it really does often feels like he is the protagonist of the story and I'm just the tag-along, which is great.

 

4. I wish gold control mode had some intermediate steps. The penalties and restrictions are pretty harsh, and I the player like them that way, but I'm not sure why the Dragonborn in-universe thinks it's ever a good idea.

1. Numbers? Hmmm, still trying to find a good balance myself. I'd actually do the opposite and have a high initial amount but very low interest, and a higher punishment cost. I'd love to try a sort of inverse exponential setup where the more debt you accrued the less your follower adds on charges, but that isn't possible as-is with the mod. This'll never happen, but it'd be really sweet if we could write in our own debt calculation formula in MCM. The problem with having compound interest is that it leads to those huge upsets in wealth. You're debt free but oh no you forgot to pay your follower for three days and now you've got a crazy amount of debt. With low initial costs it isn't hard to keep up with, but the second you don't you're past the point of no return. I'm gonna try setting the initial just higher than what I can bring in, so the debt slowly rises each day, but with little to no interest so it's a more linear progression.

2. I want to say SD+, but it adds too much instability for me. Love the mod, but CTDs too often with it. Think I just have too many script heavy mods though. The more I think on it, I can't recall any other mods I've paired with this one specifically. Apropros 2 works well with DF, I guess.

3. Anum-La from Interesting NPCs. Just a great follower overall, really.

[gravediggers240]

Oooh, Suggestion: I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest this, but a visible timer on deals would be really useful. Could either be in MCM or in the popups when you ask about your deals. Reason I'm suggesting it is if you take a couple time extensions it can get a bit convoluted to see how much time you have left going off of buyout price alone.

Great mod, by the way! The location detection was a really good idea, stops your follower from enslaving you while you're halfway through a dungeon. Other than previously stated LDC issues (which really only arose by me wanting to change stuff), it's been flawless so far.

[Lupine00]

On 4/15/2020 at 4:37 AM, Darkwing241 said:

The Confess Your Sins Deal

 

"I like my companions to be honest and true, before we rest I want you to confess your sins to me and ask for forgiveness"

 

-stage 1: Before rest (any rest? Inn? time of day?)  open a dialogue with the DF with a random assortment of follower related sins "I let you get hurt" "I forgot to pay you" "I spend all my time worrying about money (you did pay)"  "I masturbated" "I stole"

 

"You haven't learned, you should do penance to prove your sincerity"

 

-stage 2: When confessing the follower will give you penance, offering a random penance each has resistant and meek responses. 

 

"give me 50 gold pieces and I will deliver it to the temple"

"Let me put you over my knee" 

 

(I'm not sure about the exact execution of stage 2, but some combination of PC dialogue choices that result in in financial or willpower loss)

 

"You brat you never learn, you will receive a spanking every night "

 

-stage 3: in stead of starting a dialogue it will simply be 'your spanking time'  the follower will then accuse you of various (definitely invented) impurity.

 

"Admit it all you thought about today was masturbating, That's why you don't get anything done!" "Ouch! Yes! Yes! I just want to touch myself!"

"I saw you admiring yourself in that outfit, you just want to put your tits on display!"  "Ouch! Yes! Yes! I just want people to look at my tits!"

"admit it you'd be much better of working in the tavern than being an adventurer" "Ouch! Yes! Yes! I'm a terrible adventurer"

I love the idea of this by the way. Hilarious.

 

6 hours ago, Buridan said:

1. I am curious, at what level do you guys set the numbers? I've noticed that on slightly-higher-than-default settings it's actually not too difficult to outpace the Devious Follower once you get the kill-loot-sell loop rolling. I would like a level of upkeep where I am slowly losing ground against the debt despite my best effort, but I am also wary about pushing the sliders so far up that I just immediately drown in debt. Do you guys go with a low initial amount plus hefty incremental increases?

The default settings are something that Lozeak set up, and I guess there has to be some default, but the reality is that it is going to vary so much with your individual game, only you know what to set.

 

The core problem of cyclical setting tweaking is something I've talked about a lot, since the beginning.

 

You play for a bit, and you find it's too easy, so you turn up the difficulty.

Still not hard enough.
Then you turn it up some more.

Still not hard enough.

So you turn it up some more.

Now you're getting into debt and the problems are snowballing out of control. Success?

 

The problem is that it feels like you "dialed in your own defeat". You didn't try to keep ahead of the follower and fail, because you changed the settings to the point they were too hard. It feels a bit empty. It's like playing chess with yourself.

 

So, in my own DF, I added some mechanics to create extra random expenses if I was able to pay the follower consistently.

These had a certain random chance to occur, so it wasn't too predictable.

 

 

I was never entirely happy with this either, as it felt like failure was now hard-wired into the mod.

Turning the event chance merely returned the old problem of "dial in your own defeat".

 

 

More recent mechanics like Fatigue and Boredom help make it so that if you stick with a follower long-term, problems will eventually arise.

Fatigue isn't working quite right just now as you can't pay the priests. I'm going to see if I can fix that this weekend.

 

 

Fatigue and Boredom mean that the core value of how much you pay per day is less critical, because the trouble arises regardless of that.

 

I also used to use setups where the per-level cost was high, and the base cost low. So, as you level it eventually becomes impossible to pay.

 

Make sure you have a minimum contract period too. At least a week. I think that's a must for any game, and stops you hiring and firing at will.

 

 

Another approach is to use multiple followers.

Set it up so it's affordable with one follower, but set the extra cost per follower to 80% or so.

Then, when things feel too easy, hire another follower.

 

That should be enough to send you broke, but with two followers, all the deals and bondage should be survivable.

 

If you can get free of them all, you "win". Try again with more!

 

At some point you just become a possession of the collective, and you have no hope of escape. Try and finish the game while flipping between deals and enslavement.

At the point you reach Skuldafn it's fair to pause DF as you can't take followers there.

 

 

  

5 hours ago, gravediggers240 said:

2. What mods do you guys recommend to go along with DF? A lot of the others I've tried (Defeat, Kidnapped etc) don't really gel well with DF - not in terms of mod conflict but more that the others tend to be about unpredictability and sudden reversals of fortune, while DF is (to me) more about slowly sinking into the quicksand. Both aspects of the dubious-consent kink I'm really into, but maybe not at the same time.

SexLab Survival and Spank that Ass go very well with DF.

SexLab Disparity lets you tune the penalties from other mods so they are harsher, and tune the impact of wearing devices so be whatever you like, within reason.

I also use Burdens of Skyrim, as it creates more need for help from a follower.

I'm currently using Devious Lore and Deviously Enchanted Chests instead of DCL.

You should use a follower framework. AFT/EFF or NFF.

 

I use Dragonborn in Distress for defeat, it adds a lot of extras, but it also has problems.

DCL's defeat is sort of usable.

 

MME also works as a "timer of doom" for your game. Avoid becoming a milk maid as long as possible, and avoid becoming seriously hampered by your boobs as long as possible. Add Milk Addict and DiD to spice this up further. Alas, DiD is not Milk Addict aware.

 

5 hours ago, gravediggers240 said:

3. Which follower do you like to use as a Devious Follower? I've been really enjoying Sven from Riverwood in this role - you can get the DF train rolling with him on the morning of Day Two, and he is canonically already kind of an underhanded slimeball, so it's easy to build a narrative of him tricking some poor naive adventurer. Plus as a Nord with heavy armor doing sick finishers with a big axe it really does often feels like he is the protagonist of the story and I'm just the tag-along, which is great.

Troubles of Heroine has some potential followers you can mix in  

Dominant Andrew from Sex Slaves is one option. He's the only male NPC I know that was written to be a patronizing dominant from the start.

Using your spouse from Pet Project is another, no matter who it is.

My PC currently has two female followers (Velma the Shadowknight and Bora), but technically they are slaves, and are not DFs. This is because of my Things in the Dark game.

I also like the Dragonborn from Dohvakhin Divided a mod that puts in a Dragonborn, for games where you aren't the Dragonborn, or just want to act like you aren't.

Adamantine is a good male follower.

 

For a female follower that has a totally appropriate quest built in, "Buxom Wench Yuriana" is perfect. She is so OP you will feel completely ineffectual, she has a kinky back story, and she uses bikini armor. She's a bit too OP, but you can turn some of her OP-ness down via the dialog menus. Sadly, she was written for a male PC, and it sometimes shows. A modest rewrite of that mod for a submissive female PC would be incredible. Mostly dialog changes, but the wench interactions need to change a bit.

 

Ben Doon or Brhuce Hammar can also work, if you really want to suffer.

 

5 hours ago, DayTri said:

4. I wish gold control mode had some intermediate steps. The penalties and restrictions are pretty harsh, and I the player like them that way, but I'm not sure why the Dragonborn in-universe thinks it's ever a good idea.

Harsh? Not at all. Gold Control can even be a benefit. If you use a mod that steals all your cash on a regular basis, having the follower hold it really does keep it safe. And as long as you're in credit, you never pay any interest. If you need more cash, you can (often) ask for it, and you can gamble to get "spot cash".

 

DF can be set to steal money off you itself, as a post-rape event. It mainly makes sense with a rape mod that has no theft options of its own, or that has theft options that are too harsh to use. I'm a bit over rape mods myself. I don't use one any longer. If I did use one it would probably be the updated Horrible Harassment.

 

If you want spell books, simply trade magic items to the vendor and buy the books immediately with the money you make.

 

 

What harsh thing would you like dialed down?

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, gravediggers240 said:

Oooh, Suggestion: I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest this, but a visible timer on deals would be really useful. Could either be in MCM or in the popups when you ask about your deals. Reason I'm suggesting it is if you take a couple time extensions it can get a bit convoluted to see how much time you have left going off of buyout price alone.

I think it's supposed to be hard to track. That's how the follower likes it.?

 

My personal approach is simply "Is that a buyout price I can afford?" If the answer is no, it doesn't matter if there is time left, or not. And if I can, then the next question is "how badly do I want rid of this deal?" followed by "do I have a more urgent use for this money?"

 

In practice, I rarely ask the follower about buyouts unless I have money that I don't need for something else, or there is a deal I really, really want to end. Gag or blindfold tend to fall in that category.

[gravediggers240]

That's a really fair way of thinking on it.

Some sort of prostitution mod could pair well with this as a way to make money after enslavement, though I don't know which one(s) just yet. Only one I know off of my head is radiant prostitution, any others of note?

[Lupine00]

17 minutes ago, gravediggers240 said:

Some sort of prostitution mod could pair well with this as a way to make money after enslavement, though I don't know which one(s) just yet. Only one I know off of my head is radiant prostitution, any others of note?

There isn't a mod that works great with DF. I use RP myself, but it doesn't quite gel with DF. Sex Worker's Life is another alternative. It is, for me, a slightly worse fit than RP, but makes a change.  TDF Aggressive Prostitution doesn't fit well at all, and is for a more dominant character.

 

DCL's solicitation mod isn't a bad match for DF, but DCL overall is a bit of a weight, so I wouldn't add it just for that.

Also DCL's prostitution mechanics seem to cause some problems in combination with some other mods. Serious problems.

In combination with DEC, it destroys my game, but DEC is problematic with DF and SLS in general.

 

I'm not sure about Follow Me for Sex.

 

ME is perfect, but also not perfect, because it totally doesn't support DD, or work, in any practical way.

The old ME sort of works, but is incompatible with everything.

The new ME doesn't work really, except on SSE, on a very fast computer.

It's not a practical option.

 

That leaves us back with RP, SWL, or DCL as options, until somebody writes a properly DD aware solicitation mod for submissive PCs.

I started doing that. I didn't finish. Maybe. One day.

[slicksly]

As for consequences of events (beatings, addictions, arousal, anything) that are not stat debuffs - Short-duration screen effects. 

Now, I've long since come to realise that most mods bringing full time screen overlays tied to various effects to be far too intrusive to my gameplay to be enjoyable. However, instead of having a permanent overlay, how about instead having pulsing periods of them? I'm thinking something like an event every X minutes with a total duration of Y seconds, having a quick fade-in, a short lingering, and a quick fade-out of the overlay. Effects could be anything from those already in use in SLD (although the vibrancy I've never gotten to work; guessing this is because of ENB conflict), to graphical overlays linked to the type of effect. This'd allow the usage of screen overlays, which absolutely are very clear indicators of "something" going on, while not ruining the visual experience for the player too much.

Maybe screen shakes? How about non-visual stuff, too, like sound clips?

[Lupine00]

38 minutes ago, slicksly said:

As for consequences of events (beatings, addictions, arousal, anything) that are not stat debuffs - Short-duration screen effects. 

Now, I've long since come to realise that most mods bringing full time screen overlays tied to various effects to be far too intrusive to my gameplay to be enjoyable. However, instead of having a permanent overlay, how about instead having pulsing periods of them? I'm thinking something like an event every X minutes with a total duration of Y seconds, having a quick fade-in, a short lingering, and a quick fade-out of the overlay. Effects could be anything from those already in use in SLD (although the vibrancy I've never gotten to work; guessing this is because of ENB conflict), to graphical overlays linked to the type of effect. This'd allow the usage of screen overlays, which absolutely are very clear indicators of "something" going on, while not ruining the visual experience for the player too much.

Maybe screen shakes? How about non-visual stuff, too, like sound clips?

Kind of the wrong forum, but screen events for SLD is certainly a useful idea.

 

Sound clips? But which ones, from where? If you are aware of sounds that could be used that have open rights, then post links... Probably on SLD forum tho.

 

SLD itself is feeling a bit left out. DF sucked a lot of time, and then the TitD stuff... And I still haven't posted the TitD stuff.

I haven't been able to play Skyrim or mod for weeks now. Last night was my first time to play Skyrim in ages.

Now I have problems backed up in DF and SLAX that demand attention.

 

If I can get those cleared, and then get TitD posted, I can get back to SLD  

[SacredDatura]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

The core problem of cyclical setting tweaking is something I've talked about a lot, since the beginning.

 

[...]

 

The problem is that it feels like you "dialed in your own defeat". You didn't try to keep ahead of the follower and fail, because you changed the settings to the point they were too hard. It feels a bit empty. It's like playing chess with yourself.

At some point in my current game I started doing things like assigning choices to either my PC or the follower (for instance who to side with in the Alik'r quest) then using the debug menu to add debt if I go with my PC's preference. ("I say we turn her in for the bounty... but I may be convinced otherwise. What's it worth to you?") But you're exactly right, it feels kind of unsatisfying because it becomes increasingly harder to get into the mindset of it being an unwelcome imposition. Ideally I'd like to set the numbers in the MCM at the beginning of a game then not touch it again.

 

I do like the idea of random expenses, or at least additional expenses based on actions taken. Like in my latest game I had a soulgem plug and chastity belt, so I'm often just fondling myself randomly and occasionally just having thunderous climaxes at inappropriate times. Made a house rule that I would add 100 debt through the debug menu every time I (a) fondled myself in the presence of other people, or (b) climaxed in front of the follower. Would love for some version of this to be "automated" so I'm not dialing in my own defeat, as you say.

 

I'm not 100% sure if it's a native DF thing or something Deviously Enslaved (DEC) added, but I also really love that my follower would randomly find bondage items and often force-equip them on me. Sure, it's random, but there's also an element of choice here as I could also just put up with it instead of paying for removal.

 

I must admit I have not had much of a chance to see Fatigue and Boredom in action - furthest I've gone is about two weeks before I realized I was outpacing the debt.

 

Random suggestion: how do you feel about an option for followers to add a certain amount of debt upon registration? Kind of a sign-up bonus to get the ball rolling. In the Mount and Blade games the companions will usually say something to the effect of wanting to settle debts/accounts of their own before heading out. Either that or a deal right out the gate.

 

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

SexLab Survival and Spank that Ass go very well with DF.

SexLab Disparity lets you tune the penalties from other mods so they are harsher, and tune the impact of wearing devices so be whatever you like, within reason.

I also use Burdens of Skyrim, as it creates more need for help from a follower.

I'm currently using Devious Lore and Deviously Enchanted Chests instead of DCL.

You should use a follower framework. AFT/EFF or NFF.

 

I use Dragonborn in Distress for defeat, it adds a lot of extras, but it also has problems.

DCL's defeat is sort of usable.

Thank you! Will check these out. SL Survival looks especially promising.

 

I think I saw you or Lozeak recommend EFF to use with DF at some point, but I don't really like its implementation and have been casting distracted-boyfriend glances at Ultimate Follower Overhaul (having the follower ride a horse while I go on foot would be so exquisitely humiliating). Will check out AFT or NFF first though.

 

I have been keeping an eye on DiD but unfortunately SL Defeat has a couple of features I really really like that I don't think DiD offers - the command system and the chance for follower-as-aggressor scenes. Will probably wait until the overhaul comes out.

 

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Troubles of Heroine has some potential followers you can mix in  

 

[...]

Ooh. That Bruiser and his attached dignity mechanic is... making me feel things. Sorry Sven. You're staying in Riverwood with your sad love triangle forever.

 

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Harsh? Not at all. Gold Control can even be a benefit. If you use a mod that steals all your cash on a regular basis, having the follower hold it really does keep it safe. And as long as you're in credit, you never pay any interest. If you need more cash, you can (often) ask for it, and you can gamble to get "spot cash".

 

DF can be set to steal money off you itself, as a post-rape event. It mainly makes sense with a rape mod that has no theft options of its own, or that has theft options that are too harsh to use. I'm a bit over rape mods myself. I don't use one any longer. If I did use one it would probably be the updated Horrible Harassment.

 

If you want spell books, simply trade magic items to the vendor and buy the books immediately with the money you make.

 

What harsh thing would you like dialed down?

"Harsh" is probably the wrong word I think. I meant it more from the in-universe perspective of the character. So you're this adventurer, and you just hired a follower who is perhaps a little unsavory. Why would you then voluntarily hand over control of your finances to him? Although as I'm typing this I'm realizing that I could just set the initial amount really high but set it to diminish drastically. Doh!

 

11 hours ago, gravediggers240 said:

1. Numbers? Hmmm, still trying to find a good balance myself. I'd actually do the opposite and have a high initial amount but very low interest, and a higher punishment cost. I'd love to try a sort of inverse exponential setup where the more debt you accrued the less your follower adds on charges, but that isn't possible as-is with the mod. This'll never happen, but it'd be really sweet if we could write in our own debt calculation formula in MCM. The problem with having compound interest is that it leads to those huge upsets in wealth. You're debt free but oh no you forgot to pay your follower for three days and now you've got a crazy amount of debt. With low initial costs it isn't hard to keep up with, but the second you don't you're past the point of no return. I'm gonna try setting the initial just higher than what I can bring in, so the debt slowly rises each day, but with little to no interest so it's a more linear progression.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding the slider tooltips correctly, but it seems like the debt multiplier isn't compound but just multiplies off the base amount, so in theory it should increase linearly rather than exponentially, right?

[Lupine00]

36 minutes ago, Buridan said:

Random suggestion: how do you feel about an option for followers to add a certain amount of debt upon registration? Kind of a sign-up bonus to get the ball rolling. In the Mount and Blade games the companions will usually say something to the effect of wanting to settle debts/accounts of their own before heading out. Either that or a deal right out the gate.

There's support to do this as a mod event.

Probably. It keeps being done wrong. I can't recall if it's finally fixed or not, but I'm pretty sure I tested it.

This would allow SLS to use it.

 

Classic mercenaries to require 500 to sign up. Still. Though I intend to alter that.

 

A starting sign up cost seems reasonable.

 

The minimum contract is more important though.

 

The per level debt scale is its own number, multiplied by level and added to the base:

debtPerDay = baseCost + (level x debtPerLevel)

 

So yes, it's linear.

 

Nevertheless, if you set say baseCost = 100 and perLevel = 500, at level 10 you need to pay 5,100 per day, which is hard.

 

It works less well if you're at level 20 when you get your first follower.

While it would make sense to add a power factor to it, power factors are non-intuitive to configure. Players might complain it is broken.

Still, I guess that's no reason to not do it really.

 

Interest, of course, is an entirely different calculation.

 

The way that screws you is when the follower refuses to let you pay unless you take deals first.

[slicksly]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Kind of the wrong forum, but screen events for SLD is certainly a useful idea.

 

Sound clips? But which ones, from where? If you are aware of sounds that could be used that have open rights, then post links... Probably on SLD forum tho.

 

SLD itself is feeling a bit left out. DF sucked a lot of time, and then the TitD stuff... And I still haven't posted the TitD stuff.

I haven't been able to play Skyrim or mod for weeks now. Last night was my first time to play Skyrim in ages.

Now I have problems backed up in DF and SLAX that demand attention.

 

If I can get those cleared, and then get TitD posted, I can get back to SLD  

Depends what sound clips you'd need really. There's public libraries with free-to-use samples out there which could work for various sound effects, and basic sound editing isn't all that hard. However, I suppose any usage of human voice, lewd or otherwise, would require either (copyright-breaching) lifting of audio from existing content, or original creation, making it more complex to get hands on.