Devious Followers - Continued

[DisarmingSnail]

17 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I looked at that item in my game, and it has no errors.

 

Do you have some version of SLA installed?

I notice that it has a reference to SLA on it, which is normal for a lot of DD items.

Also, is your DD an old one? That could also cause problems.

 

It's possible that Wrye bash is just so old and pointless that its ESP loader code is out of date and wrong.

I've seen in throw errors on other mods that are (apparently) fine too.

 

I stopped bothering with bashed patches. They fix so few things as to be not worth the bother.

Make a merged patch in Tes5Edit and check that you fixed up any conflicting lists by hand.

 

 

Mator Smash also solves a lot of problems. It requires a lot more work, and some people can't get good results with it, but it knows a lot more about merging stuff than bash does. Despite being picky about some things, and getting some armor properties wrong, it knows how to merge a ton of different record kinds, and how to resolve various conflicts correctly.

 

I stopped using it because it seems not to like SLS at all, and SLS is a mod that I particularly need to merge lists on.

Also, Mator seems to have given up supporting it, but it's still years newer than Wrye.

 

 

There's really no replacement for a hand-crafted merge patch once your game gets past a certain point of complexity.

 

Thanks for the quick reply, really appreciate the detailed breakdown. I just stuck with Wyre Bash since i read that it handles merging of leveled lists better than a merged patch. I'm using the latest version of DD but now I'm able to narrow down the problem. Thanks for your help!

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, KLongad Sirtup said:

Idea for an option in the MCM and DF generally to enable the possibility of the enslaved player being branded utilising the API of SlaveTats. Possibly with an option or by default of it be locked on (persistent) in the API call. This during the enslavement performed by the Devious Follower.

This feature already exists. There is an MCM option to adjust how many tattoos you get.

 

You need Rape Tattoos for it to work.

 

https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/3587-rapetattoos/

[itami_no_hana]

I have a strange bug that after some time DF dialogues just stop showing as well as debt is no longer added and other stuff stops happening. Dismiss option vanishes as well, even vanilla one. When I use reset command it starts again nicely (somehow always changing my money to 0 but that's fine), but always stops working after a while.  I am using Nether's Follower Framework, but not sure if it's relevant. Has anyone encountered such strange mod behaviour?

[KLongad Sirtup]

18 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

This feature already exists. There is an MCM option to adjust how many tattoos you get.

 

You need Rape Tattoos for it to work.

 

https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/3587-rapetattoos/

@Lupine00 Well I don't know if rape tattoos applies this one but I'm referring to the slave tattoo in the main SlaveTats download. Specifically possibly the slave hand tattoo, forehead tattoo and/or belly tattoo.

 

Also an idea for an additional deal with a soft dependency on Immersive Fashion, specifically you trade away control of your appearance in return for a reduction in your Player Characters's debt. The devious follower either as a deal or during enslavement could then alter your appearance. To make you look more like a slut, a whore or what ever appearance takes their fancy. This could be toggled on in an MCM setting, so the deal or enslavement option is available for it to occur. Also as part of this there's an API that can be called in scripting which has a wide variety of functions, including locking out changes via the YPS Immersive Fashion's MCM.

[Balgin]

38 minutes ago, KLongad Sirtup said:

@Lupine00 Well I don't know if rape tattoos applies this one but I'm referring to the slave tattoo in the main SlaveTats download. Specifically possibly the slave hand tattoo, forehead tattoo and/or belly tattoo.

 

Also an idea for an additional deal with a soft dependency on Immersive Fashion, specifically you trade away control of your appearance in return for a reduction in your Player Characters's debt. The devious follower either as a deal or during enslavement could then alter your appearance. To make you look more like a slut, a whore or what ever appearance takes their fancy. This could be toggled on in an MCM setting, so the deal or enslavement option is available for it to occur. Also as part of this there's an API that can be called in scripting which has a wide variety of functions, including locking out changes via the YPS Immersive Fashion's MCM.

I'm pretty sure I've suggested one or two YPS deals in the past but nothing's ever come of them.

 

Previously I suggested a shaving deal.

Stage 1: Shaved armpits.

Stage 2: Shaved pubic hair.

Stage 3: Shaved head with possible punishment shavings if the devious follower becomes bored or wants to take advantage of low willpower.

 

Wonderful adventures in hair care products optional variant.

Stage 1: The follower wants to dye your hair a specific colour.

Stage 2: The follower wants to cut your hair in a specific style.

Stage 3: The follower wants to shave your head and then you have to wear a wig in the style & colour from stages 1 & 2 (the follower was Grooming you for the wig after all). When the deal expires you can stop wearing the wig although you can start to grow stubble under the wig while the deal plays out (unless the follower takes advantage and shaves your head again).

 

I'm pretty sure there could be a makeup deal as well involving lipstick, eyeshadow and nail varnish. So a cosmetics deal.

 

Having your head forcefully shaved by a devious follower against your will would probably need to lower resistance or willpower if it's nonconsentual.

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, KLongad Sirtup said:

I don't know if rape tattoos applies this one but I'm referring to the slave tattoo in the main SlaveTats download.

It applies whatever you configure it to apply.

 

The rape tattoos mod is not a tattoo set, it's a way of choosing from tattoo sets and also locking applied tattoos if you want.

What sets you install is up to you.

 

It works nicely with fadetattoos.

[Lupine00]

Having looked into a possible cause of some (small number of) players having issues with hiring followers in games with no follower framework, I might have a possible cause - though this is not borne out by any user reports.

 

DFC 2.09 is built against a version of DialogueFollowerScript from NFF that has the USLEEP patch in it.

 

It does not contain an overwrite for that script - by design - as AFT and NFF overwrite it, and NFF needs to overwrite it.

 

For players without USLEEP, it's conceivable that their DialogueFollowerScript will fail to work properly with DFC, causing some follower problems.

Also, AFT includes what was (at the time of its release) probably the latest and greatest Beth update to DialogueFollowerScript, which is now quite obsolete, and removes the USLEEP patch that fixes some bug with Mjoll's dialogue. USLEEP users should be wary of AFT in this respect.

 

 

In 2.10 I will ensure that DFC is built against the original vanilla follower script.

 

However...

I'm not sure this detail should cause any issues at all, but Skyrim is a fragile thing. 

 

Perhaps the few players that had issues also did not use USLEEP?

Perhaps it requires more complex conditions to replicate the problem.

 

I hope that the change in 2.10 will improve things, but it's pretty-much clutching at straws. It's equally possible that the cause of problems in those games had little to do with anything in DFC, and everything to do with how those games were put together.

 

Some small number of players have had timing issues with LDC startup since DF 2.00, so that might also be at the root of this issue.

 

In which case, either removing the LDC output files, or making sure they already exist at startup, might have some magical curative effect for the few players with issues.

[slaveyan]

I very like this MOD, can i ask some question. how trigger one event that the follower let player carry some stuffs?

and ,how to trigger follower sell player's stuffs to the shop?

[trogladour]

Thanks for everyone's help previously.  I got my mods all set and running.  But I got a FNIS warning in regard to Devious follower 2.09.  

 

I had to remove it to have my game run correctly.  Any ideas on this? 

 

The warning refers to behaviour.hkk not being Skyrim SE compatible.  When I remove the mod FNIS works fine. 

[trogladour]

1 hour ago, Zagzaguel said:

DF is a mod for LE; not SE

 

/This is the version Im using, Its converted to SE

Note that I deleted the Bodyslide files (since I dont need them) and the custom armour is.. well.. custom CBBE armour

 

  Devious Followers 2.09 - SE.7z 8.98 MB · 0 downloads

MUCH APPRECIATED!   no warnings clean FNIS!  Thank you Zag! 

[Lupine00]

9 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

Note that I deleted the Bodyslide files (since I dont need them) and the custom armour is.. well.. custom CBBE armour

Good point.

 

I forget all about that, because those models are overwritten in my game.

 

If they have a body mesh in ... looks like no way around it but a FOMOD and a choice of UNP or CBBE.

[tesenfeu]

Hi, i'm going to report you another problem from the version 2.09, when your debt exceeds the limit you are not enslaved and i never get the message from my follower ( try on a new game with vanilla and moded follower. ) probably a conflict with your new debug option ? 

 

[user9120975435]

I'm not even sure this is related to this mod or is a problem with script packages for a NPC, but you're quite probably the most knowledgeable mod author here so I'm gonna ask you.

 

I'm trying to recruit NPCs as my followers using the debug system in your mod, but I'm doing it by duplicating an already existing weak female NPC (like Ysolda or those hunters in the thermal pools - I'm doing a weak girl playthrough and don't want my follower to be much stronger) with the placeatme command. But when I get them as followers they are not following my PC, but instead doing whatever the hell they like: the hunter is just hanging around the longer-term camp I established and when I spawn Ysolda after dismissing the hunter (for some reason I'm still getting the dialog option to dismiss the hunter even though I've already done it) she accepts the deal and then just goes on her way back to Whiterun instead of staying. Yet I still get the message about debt.

 

To clarify: I'm using a very very old, very early save of my playthrough for which I'm not sure if it already has had a follower added using the debug menu and then dismissed. Could that be the issue?

 

Or maybe it's script packages simply attaching to those newly spawned characters and overriding their follower scripts?

 

Should I just do a clean-save of DF?

 

Was this issue one of the recruiting/dismissing stuff that was fixed in latest update or was that more to do with follower framework mods?

 

Thanks for your time

[Xiaron]

Spoiler

 

23 minutes ago, user9120975435 said:

I'm not even sure this is related to this mod or is a problem with script packages for a NPC, but you're quite probably the most knowledgeable mod author here so I'm gonna ask you.

 

I'm trying to recruit NPCs as my followers using the debug system in your mod, but I'm doing it by duplicating an already existing weak female NPC (like Ysolda or those hunters in the thermal pools - I'm doing a weak girl playthrough and don't want my follower to be much stronger) with the placeatme command. But when I get them as followers they are not following my PC, but instead doing whatever the hell they like: the hunter is just hanging around the longer-term camp I established and when I spawn Ysolda after dismissing the hunter (for some reason I'm still getting the dialog option to dismiss the hunter even though I've already done it) she accepts the deal and then just goes on her way back to Whiterun instead of staying. Yet I still get the message about debt.

 

To clarify: I'm using a very very old, very early save of my playthrough for which I'm not sure if it already has had a follower added using the debug menu and then dismissed. Could that be the issue?

 

Or maybe it's script packages simply attaching to those newly spawned characters and overriding their follower scripts?

 

Should I just do a clean-save of DF?

 

Was this issue one of the recruiting/dismissing stuff that was fixed in latest update or was that more to do with follower framework mods?

 

Thanks for your time

 

I'm pretty sure that the NPC you recruit has to be a follower to begin with, DF doesn't add that AI package. The debug function is for followers that aren't correctly recruiting into DF but that are working as a vanilla follower already.

 

@Lupine00 That is the case, right?

[Kalthen]

Great update with 2.09 works great on a new game. Finally get bound on the deal. I am using EFF. You mentioned not to update to the new version when on a FF, so I'll wait.

 

I am interested in the interaction with SD+ "added punishment for standing when crawling (if you use SD+)"....  How and when exactly does this interact? When you get the modular crawl deal you can't stand up and it overrides SD crawling. Is there a new mod event? How does it trigger?

[donttouchmethere]

On 1/23/2020 at 3:01 PM, Lupine00 said:

Having looked into a possible cause of some (small number of) players having issues with hiring followers in games with no follower framework, I might have a possible cause - though this is not borne out by any user reports.

 

DFC 2.09 is built against a version of DialogueFollowerScript from NFF that has the USLEEP patch in it.

 

It does not contain an overwrite for that script - by design - as AFT and NFF overwrite it, and NFF needs to overwrite it.

 

For players without USLEEP, it's conceivable that their DialogueFollowerScript will fail to work properly with DFC, causing some follower problems.

Also, AFT includes what was (at the time of its release) probably the latest and greatest Beth update to DialogueFollowerScript, which is now quite obsolete, and removes the USLEEP patch that fixes some bug with Mjoll's dialogue. USLEEP users should be wary of AFT in this respect.

 

 

In 2.10 I will ensure that DFC is built against the original vanilla follower script.

 

However...

I'm not sure this detail should cause any issues at all, but Skyrim is a fragile thing. 

 

Perhaps the few players that had issues also did not use USLEEP?

Perhaps it requires more complex conditions to replicate the problem.

 

I hope that the change in 2.10 will improve things, but it's pretty-much clutching at straws. It's equally possible that the cause of problems in those games had little to do with anything in DFC, and everything to do with how those games were put together.

 

Some small number of players have had timing issues with LDC startup since DF 2.00, so that might also be at the root of this issue.

 

In which case, either removing the LDC output files, or making sure they already exist at startup, might have some magical curative effect for the few players with issues.

oha, there was some thought behind this.

Still, I'm not sure what to read out of your explanation.

 

NFF overwrites vanilla follower scripts on my setup.

DFC want's to overwrite:

 

 

As I understand it:

> I use USLEEP

> I use NFF with overwritten vanilla follower scripts

=> I don't overwrite NFF's script with DFC

=> I keep DFC above NFF in LO (not sure if it matters for NMM users if the TIF file is provided by NFF instead of DFC)

 

[valcon767]

9 hours ago, user9120975435 said:

Or maybe it's script packages simply attaching to those newly spawned characters and overriding their follower scripts?

 

as Xiaron has stated DFC does not make random NPCs into followers, what it does do is "force hire into a devious follower" a potential follower.

this will turn actual follower or potential follower into a devious follower (DFC's debug menu).  it does not add the factions or packages to any 

NPC to turn them into a follower.  if you use EFF, AFT, or NFF they all have a "force recruit" option that can turn any NPC into a follower (and once

the NPC is a follower DFC should pick up on it in a short time). if you do not use a follower framework you can still turn any NPC into a follower (mostly)

by adding certain factions to them with the console (PotentialFollowerFaction is the main one needed).

 

[Lupine00]

13 hours ago, donttouchmethere said:

As I understand it:

> I use USLEEP

> I use NFF with overwritten vanilla follower scripts

=> I don't overwrite NFF's script with DFC

=> I keep DFC above NFF in LO (not sure if it matters for NMM users if the TIF file is provided by NFF instead of DFC)

 

As I try to make as clear and explicit on the front page as possible, you MUST put DFC after NFF in your LO.

 

If you do not, you basically overwrite the entire integration with standard NFF scripts, and your followers will not be properly tracked.

 

The same applies to every other follower framework too. 

 

DFC overwrites your follower framework because it has the customised modifications.

The follower frameworks should not overwrite DFC, because they know nothing about it.

 

Should be obvious when you think about it.

Why else would DFC have files that conflict with a follower framework in it - files that appear to be explicitly from that framework?

It's because it changes those files to patch in DFC awareness.

[donttouchmethere]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

As I try to make as clear and explicit on the front page as possible, you MUST put DFC after NFF in your LO.

 

If you do not, you basically overwrite the entire integration with standard NFF scripts, and your followers will not be properly tracked.

 

The same applies to every other follower framework too. 

 

DFC overwrites your follower framework because it has the customised modifications.

The follower frameworks should not overwrite DFC, because they know nothing about it.

 

Should be obvious when you think about it.

Why else would DFC have files that conflict with a follower framework in it - files that appear to be explicitly from that framework?

It's because it changes those files to patch in DFC awareness.

It's not as obvious as you think.

I overwrite Sexlab and Campfire with PapyrusUtil, with your logic that would be wrong.

Often mods come with files that want to overwrite frameworks or mods they connect to, SD+ is a good example for that, overwriting multiple files of other mods.

You can also break mods with script overwrites if the overwriting mod has older or bugged versions in it.

There are also cases there conflicting mods just have the exact same files to overwrite and it's just interesting for NMM useres what click on overwrite for files or everything.

 

Also the optimal position of DF in LO in combination with follower mods change a lot over time.

I had DFC above and below NFF without seing DF stopping to work.

Last position was above.

 

As I understand it now, you changed the NFF TIF file in a way that it supports DFC's connection to NFF.

That means I have to overwrite the NFF file now.

With NMM it's a physical overwrite and LO wouldn't have an effect on that particular file unless I confirm an overwrite.

Also if that file is the only reason for a LO position it would be negated by a physical overwrite of that file, because now both NFF and DFC use the same file.

 

[Lupine00]

25 minutes ago, donttouchmethere said:

As I understand it now, you changed the NFF TIF file in a way that it supports DFC's connection to NFF.

That means I have to overwrite the NFF file now.

With NMM it's a physical overwrite and LO wouldn't have an effect on that particular file unless I confirm an overwrite.

Also if that file is the only reason for a LO position it would be negated by a physical overwrite of that file, because now both NFF and DFC use the same file.

LO and file overwrite are quite separate, both in NMM and in MO, where they are in different panes.

Nevertheless, you need both to be correct.

 

Just trust me when I say you need to overwrite that file, and ensure that the DFC ESP is loaded after NFF's, or AFT's or EFF's.

 

I wrote that information on the front page because if you don't follow it, the scripts and properties in DFC won't do what I want, and the features of DFC relating to followers will be broken in various ways, some trivial, some more bothersome.

 

There are overrides of vanilla records that need to come from DFC, and the DFC changes are aware of the follower frameworks, so it doesn't break them.

If it does break them, then I will fix that. The possibility of a mistake does not negate the intent.

 

The follower frameworks are not aware of DFC, so they break it.

AFT and EFF are never going to be aware of DFC, and honestly, I doubt NFF is either.

 

... except ... in so far as I modified DFC and files from those frameworks to make them aware.

 

 

Getting a follower mod to work - even to a limited extent - with three different, mutually exclusive, follower frameworks, without individual patches is really rather difficult, so I don't think it's a huge thing to ask for the files to be installed the way I advise in the installation instructions ... if you want them to work. If you wish to arrange your game differently, that is your prerogative, but in that case you get to own the problems that occur as a result.

[donttouchmethere]

11 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

LO and file overwrite are quite separate, both in NMM and in MO, where they are in different panes.

Nevertheless, you need both to be correct.

 

Just trust me when I say you need to overwrite that file, and ensure that the DFC ESP is loaded after NFF's, or AFT's or EFF's.

I... I trust you.

Overwriting NFF and DFC below NFF in LO o7

[Sucker343]

LoL. I have been doing it wrong whole time! I never installed NFF scripts and Loaded DFC before NFF.?

Funny thing  It worked fine most part except 2 different Follower removal option. I will do it Right this time.

 

I must admit making it work with three different frameworks is quite troublesome. Now that I asked for NFF. I feel really bad for it.

[Pinute]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

 

The follower frameworks are not aware of DFC, so they break it.

AFT and EFF are never going to be aware of DFC, and honestly, I doubt NFF is either.

 

... except ... in so far as I modified DFC and files from those frameworks to make them aware.

 

Speaking of frameworks 

 

I've been using Nether's follower mod so I wanted to give DFC another go, but I also figured I'd best drop RDO for a time because of its conflicts with DFC's follower dismissal logic.

 

I haven't had the time to look more deeply yet but I was wondering if there's been any feedback about bad DFC - RDO compatibility? 

[donttouchmethere]

4 minutes ago, Garolding said:

Speaking of frameworks 

 

I've been using Nether's follower mod so I wanted to give DFC another go, but I also figured I'd best drop RDO for a time because of its conflicts with DFC's follower dismissal logic.

 

I haven't had the time to look more deeply yet but I was wondering if there's been any feedback about bad DFC - RDO compatibility? 

On my setup RDO gets overwritten by NFF and NFF controls the RDO follower related options (NFF ask to patch RDO during installation).

DFC connects to NFF and so far I had no issues to dismiss DFC followers (after paying them and no minimal time for contracts)

[DonQuiWho]

FWIW, on Follower Management Frameworks, I have just set up a new game in which I am using iAFT, RDO and DFC, all working within MO1, with 250+ mods running 

 

I have spent the afternoon trying to make follower recruitment work. 

 

So for anyone else struggling their way through this, short of kicking the cat, the only way I could seem to get iAFT to do that (without an on screen error report in the format "AFT Warning: Tweak<some companion data> missing parameter (mod conflict?)" was to set both the L/H Pane Mod Order, and R/H Pane Load Order as

 

Mod Order                                                           Load Order     

Near bottom, before Skeleton related items          Right at the very bottom

 

 

iAFT 3-09                                                             AmazingFollowerTweaks.esp

RDO 2.0i + (Relevant) Patches                              Relationship Dialogue Overhaul.esp

                                                                            RDO - iAFT Patch.esp

                                                                            RDO - USLEEP Patch.esp

DFC 2.09                                                              DeviousFollowers.esp  

 

It will probably all fall over now, just to prove that I really know how to screw things up, but until then ....