Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[SkyAddiction]

@Lozeak This mod has seriously come into its own and made itself indispensable within my load order.

Any time you're seriously considering spending perks in speechcraft when you're not playing a character that needs persuasion, that's a Skyrim economic accomplishment of the highest order. Oh, and the rest is fun too... 

 

A few really low priority ideas:

1. The ability to delay gold control for an hour or two.

 

I managed to trip gold control in town, while on my way to sell the loot from the latest dungeon crawl. It wasn't anything I couldn't weasel out of within a few days, but it struck me as fairly incongruent that my follower would take over my purse strings just when I was about to pay him. It's not a big deal, just immersion-breaking for a bit.

 

Solution:

 

Add a force-greet dialogue to gold control that gives the player two options. Example:

1. "Hey! I'm just about to sell all our loot from the last hole we crawled through! Give me an hour or two!" (literally gives an hour or two to get money)

2. "Your eyes become daggers that can kill, but realizing you're too far away from civilization or without sufficient means to placate your companion, you silently hand over your purse." (1-2 hours won't help you)

This would probably apply equally well to debt enslavement and enslavement selling, but I haven't used those in a while because the deal system has far outgrown the current enslavement system. I'm sure you have plans, but I'll stick with the deal system for now. 

 

Another idea... One of the more subtle factors that DCL and SLA together introduce is the need for an actual sex life. Unless the player seriously bumps the minimum arousal for DCL traps or massively reduces the weighting of arousal in the triggering of traps, the player actually has to make their character engage in sex to lower arousal. It's kind of a management mini-game, and it might be interesting to introduce options where the player can engage the follower as a lover and receive a small, temporary bonus that keeps the attitude of the follower positive toward the player... until the gold stops flowing.

Maybe sex with your follower means they become more controlling if the money stops coming in?

[SkyAddiction]

22 minutes ago, zeldashu said:

Is it compatible with DCL??

 

Nearly 100% so.

[Lupine00]

On the topic of mystery vs clarity/documentation, the dispute (Reesewow etc), and concern about possible bugs and conflicts being hidden really is misplaced. The two things aren't incompatible. A quest mod can document its technical aspects without spoiling the story, and can even document specific quest stages if its done sensibly. Slaverun Reloaded is a case in point.

 

The idea that a quest is more fun if you don't know everything that's going to happen in it in advance doesn't really have much to do with good documentation of mods. I don't think anyone would prefer Skyrim to come with a book that spoilers every single quest, just so they'll know if one has a bug in it. It's more the case that people sometimes need to check if something really is a bug.

 

Some mods have good front pages and additional documentation, and some do not. The aforementioned Slaverun, for example, has an excellent front-page, that goes into detail on what mods are hard dependencies, what are soft, what is supported, and what sort of features you get from them. It even details the quest stages for every quest so you can troubleshoot.

 

However, everything that needs to be is tucked away in spoiler sections as appropriate, so if you don't need, or want, to read that stuff, your fun isn't ruined.

 

 

Most mods are not as good. Often, they are vague about soft dependencies, or identify hard dependencies in an ambiguous way, lacking version numbers, dates or links. None of that information would have spoiled any "mystery" component of them. Some make it surprisingly hard to even figure out what the mod is supposed to do, because they describe themselves entirely in terms of other mods with similar names, which may have been defunct for years, or were for Fallout New Vegas.

 

Some may not even mention that dozens of quests are broken - blocking progress - or incompatibilities with other (more) popular mods. It's a pity because a small amount of work on the front page would save dozens of questions and complaints in forums - perhaps not all, because not everyone reads everything, but still, it would help some people. Things in the Dark, for example, fails to mention that pretty much no part of it actually works without incessant console hacking.

 

 

DF is most fun when you aren't quite sure how the deals are going to pan out. Once you've seen them a few times, it's less exciting. Once you've seen all the games as well, you start to appreciate that Lozeak adds new stuff so fast

 

 

The extra "mystery" added by gold control helps with longevity though. That functionality is really doing it's job. Throw in some Chaos Mode, and it's really tough to know where things are headed. I don't think Chaos Mode needs any presets. There aren't really that many settings, and they have nothing to do with follower personality at all.

 

On reflection, I think there is scope to add lots of new deals, lots and lots, if the work could be done. Even if the deals were somewhat similar, just having different dialog, or some small functional change would still make them feel fresh. e.g. Stage 1, Clit piercing, Stage 2 plugs, Stage 3 harness would still be fun even though there are already piercing and plug deals, and a deal with a corset.

 

 

There isn't really anything in the MCM right now that could create a different feel to the mod, apart from enabling/disabling of deals. You can make cash flow hard or easy, force yourself into deals or not, but that doesn't make a follower cruel or kind, playful or shy, angry or generous - it just makes them more or less greedy in different situations - and sometimes irrationally so, but that's fine.

 

Gold control mode kicking in five minutes before you vend? Forced into several more days of near slavery? Sounds like it's working perfectly. What's boring is when you can just pay off the follower and dump them whenever you like, and gold control stops that.

 

DF followers all feel a lot like the same person, no matter what. Opening up some hooks and documenting a set of named storage utility variables that custom follower code could interact with ... might result in people creating custom followers with a certain amount of DF awareness and individuality.

 

 

Another thought on gold control. Follower could enable it "to help" if you get too much gold. Wouldn't want to lose it now, would you?

 

Yet another thought... Would be nice to have a "no masturbation" deal. Every time you masturbate, you get punished.

Makes the drink alcohol feature in DCL more useful.

 

And one more... Danger money: follower adds extra debt if you fight a dragon, or dragon priest (high risk = high reward, right?)

[xboronx]

Could finally try out the new deals, they are so mean and humiliating, fantastic :). Especially the tape deal is cruel.

 

Just the handcuffs still don't seem to get equipped when you refuse whoring out when you take the anal shield deal. The popup description said i got handcuffed but they didn't appear. Maybe they are incompatible with the arm cuffs or the gloves from the other deals.

 

 

[Reesewow]

1 hour ago, xboronx said:

Just the handcuffs still don't seem to get equipped when you refuse whoring out when you take the anal shield deal. The popup description said i got handcuffed but they didn't appear. Maybe they are incompatible with the arm cuffs or the gloves from the other deals.

This is possible - I didn't have any issues with the handcuffs equipping myself but my character did not have any arm cuffs or restrictive gloves equipped at the time.  Not sure what slot the handcuffs use as it is so rare to see them in mods so far, being a newish item (love the combat animations for them tho, they will be fun when bound combat gets an overhaul).

 

You aren't really missing out, as it seems the purpose of the handcuffs is to make refusal more "punishing" than just getting your punishment debt added - with the handcuffs equipped you probably are going to end up paying your follower to have them removed or buying a key ect.  I didn't see any special dialogue ect regarding them.

[lalabee]

I'm sorry with my bad eng skills since I'm not a native....

 

I have a suggestion about this mod.

How about pausing deal for 1-2 hours or stop following PC for 1-2 hours with increased interesting rates? (Of course, The more deal PC suggested, the more higher interesting rates) Also, entrusting some gold to make PC return may be good. When PC has Extremely high debt, follower can deny this.

 

Because, some quests requires having no followers or are made having no followers is better than having them.

It isn't essential, but support more diversity in playing experince.

 

In that situration, PC can run away from follower, or suggesting where to meet(mostly, inns) can be good.

 

It also make PC can sell the possiblity of running away by accepting deal!! (e.g magical collar which shocks her when run away... or plugs... or someting.)

 

Another deal suggestion....

 

How about adding chances that interest PC to make a deal? I think, Follower is to passive to enslave her.

(e.g The follower says something like this: If you make a deal now, I'll payback 100 gold. or Your debt is somewhat high. if you accepting this deal, tomorrow's debt can be down as 100 gold.... etc.)

 

It also can be applied in gold control mode. PC hates whoring and follower payback 100 gold to make her accepting deal....

[Nazzzgul666]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

On the topic of mystery vs clarity/documentation, the dispute (Reesewow etc), and concern about possible bugs and conflicts being hidden really is misplaced.

Rather a misunderstanding.

What i understood when you talked about mystery was adding non-documented features. Not sure if i didn't read carefully enough in the first place, but at least now it sounds like that's not what you had in mind, and in that case i agree that both is possible and if both documentation and mystery is added, it's great.  

I also agree with your examples which did great, my negative example would be vinfamys Dovahkin. It seems to be a great mod, but i gave it 3 tries with 3 different quests and i gave up in the middle of each quest because i couldn't figure out how to continue, and because i couldn't find out what's supposed to happen i couldn't figure out if i'm doing it wrong or if it's a bug. Just a little more docu would probably make it great.

[HexBolt8]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Another thought on gold control. Follower could enable it "to help" if you get too much gold. Wouldn't want to lose it now, would you?

I like this idea.  And gold control content would have to be toggled on, so players who don't want this kind of "help" wouldn't see it. 

[Lupine00]

It wasn't very clear, due to the translation, but retrev seemed to be suggesting that the follower should be more proactive in suggesting things, like deals.

 

I like that idea. I don't think it would be bad if the follower made a bit more use of forcegreets, as long as they weren't too often.

 

For example, actively proposing deals, and for rewards other than for reduced debt.

(Though forcefully proposing that you need to take a deal, when your debt is getting high would really make a lot of sense).

 

e.g.

"I'll stop controlling your gold if you agree to a play a little game with me. Do you want to do it?"

or

"I've saved up some gold. I'll give it to you, but in exchange you need to agree to something." 

or

"You look pretty stuck in a yoke, but I'll help you out of it. You just have to do something for me in return."

or

"I can give you a key to those mittens, but it will cost you. Just a little freedom... You won't even miss it."

 

 

But generally, the idea that followers are more pushy, less reactive to player requests would make them seem more alive.

One of the defects of SD+ is that the "master" is almost completely indifferent to the PC unless the PC activates them and begins a conversation - unless you try to run away.

A dominant character should issue orders when it suits them, not when the PC asks for attention.

It's the balance of how often they exhibit behaviours like this that play to the illusion of personality variation, much more than things like how much they charge you per day.

 

Sure, in practice we don't want the follower getting in the way of playing the game all the time, but there's certainly scope to give them a bit more agency without spoiling things.

[griffinjohn59]

Just wondering if the whore armors are bodyslide compatible and if so what group they are under.

[Hanshurtig11]

1 hour ago, griffinjohn59 said:

Just wondering if the whore armors are bodyslide compatible and if so what group they are under.

I have the full set of WTF the amazing world of bikini armor installed and running this group through bodyslide seems to give out correct whore armor size.

But i see there are 3 Armors starting with DF in normal (not group selected) or batchbuild, pull down, guess thats the one you need to look for.

[Lupine00]

Has anyone done a re-weight of the White Dynasty Armor (skimpy) from CBBE to UUNP already? I like the look of that for whore armor.

[HexBolt8]

9 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I don't think it would be bad if the follower made a bit more use of forcegreets, as long as they weren't too often.

 

For example, actively proposing deals, and for rewards other than for reduced debt.

Yes, as long as this isn't overdone, it would make the follower seem more in control rather than passively waiting for the player, which would feel more alive.

 

But it wouldn't have to be tied to deals.  How about a contest?  The follower offers some gold, or keys, or a one-day reduction of a deal if the player wins a contest.  It would be possible to win but stacked against the player, so most likely you just make a fool of yourself for the follower's amusement.  Possible examples for challenges within a city:

 

Flash your breasts to 10 different people in 2 minutes.

Steal 3 items in 1 minute without sneaking.

Confess to 6 guards in 3 minutes that you're a sex addict and ask to be arrested.  The guard just sends you on your way with a rude comment that the whole city already knows what you are (or, maybe a small chance that you do get arrested for help with your problem).

[Reesewow]

27 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

But it wouldn't have to be tied to deals.  How about a contest?  The follower offers some gold, or keys, or a one-day reduction of a deal if the player wins a contest.  It would be possible to win but stacked against the player, so most likely you just make a fool of yourself for the follower's amusement.  Possible examples for challenges within a city:

That sounds like a great idea for a new branch of content for the mod - reminds me a lot of the "More Devious Quest" mod where you could get mini-tasks from merchants to try to get some gold ect while bound.  Sadly that mod was abandoned a while back, but it was still a great mod (apparently still mostly works, altho I gave it up in favour of newer mods).

 

I'm not certain if forcegreets would be my personal favored way of triggering optional content like this, altho I agree the follower asserting themselves would make them more "organic" or at least demanding of your attention.  I think my main issue with them would be that I expect "city games" would tend to trigger fairly reliably after fast travelling to a city after a quest/dungeon, so it could get pretty annoying to push past the follower dialogue if the player isn't interested in playing.

 

Rather than a direct force-greet, perhaps an idea would be that upon triggering the follower could simply speak aloud asking if the player wants a chance to earn some gold/keys ect (same as they do when they are adding debt), and the player would have an opportunity to talk to the follower to see what they have in mind.  There could also be a debug message printed in case the follower's dialogue is covered up by other subtitles, along the lines of "Your follower has offered you a challenge" or "Your follower jingles a bag of coins, laughing at your pathetic state".  Then the player could have the option of talking to the follower to initiate the contest agree/refuse dialogue, or ignore them and have the contest dialogue time out/reset itself on cell change. 

 

If it was desired that the follower demand more "attention" from the player, perhaps the contest dialogue timing out could result in punishment debt being added at low willpower, since the player is basically ignoring the follower in a rude manner.  Then you'd actually want to pay attention to the follower if your PC is in a compromising position, rather than the game forcing you to deal with a forcegreet the exact moment it decides to trigger, no matter how inconvenient.

[HexBolt8]

58 minutes ago, Reesewow said:

Rather than a direct force-greet, perhaps an idea would be that upon triggering the follower could simply speak aloud asking if the player wants a chance to earn some gold/keys ect (same as they do when they are adding debt), and the player would have an opportunity to talk to the follower to see what they have in mind.  There could also be a debug message printed in case the follower's dialogue is covered up by other subtitles, along the lines of "Your follower has offered you a challenge" or "Your follower jingles a bag of coins, laughing at your pathetic state".  Then the player could have the option of talking to the follower to initiate the contest agree/refuse dialogue, or ignore them and have the contest dialogue time out/reset itself on cell change. 

Great idea!  The follower is proactive without being in your face, which is always a risk with force-greetings.

[zupra]

I find manipulating locks to be too easy way out of the devices. I think it would be nice if the manipulation success rate was adjustable. Or maybe this mod could handle it so that there's a chance you get busted manipulating the locks and you get more debt for it.

[zeldashu]

English is not my native language.

An immature suggestion，linkage devious-attributes.?

[Lupine00]

13 hours ago, zupra said:

I find manipulating locks to be too easy way out of the devices. I think it would be nice if the manipulation success rate was adjustable. Or maybe this mod could handle it so that there's a chance you get busted manipulating the locks and you get more debt for it.

Some time ago, I asked for followers to occasionally check your devices and lock them on if they were manipulated, but Lozeak already shot that down.

He said something along the lines of the punishment for not wearing them means you can't remove them for long, even if they're not locked, so there's no need to lock them.

Letting you decide gives you more choices on what devices you can use, and means that if a deal ends, you can simply remove them.

 

I see his point, and I guess it's more flexible that way, but there's also the immersion aspect: why use devious devices at all if they aren't locked?

I guess you could debate that with the DD devs who added "manipulate locks" in the first place.

 

To second-guess their answer, it delivers a super-set of ZBF functionality, and manipulated locks can always be locked, after all.

 

DCL dialogs can result in it happening with any NPC (including your devious follower), if you enable it.

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, zeldashu said:

An immature suggestion，linkage devious-attributes.

As Lozeak very recently said he doesn't want more stats, I can't imagine he'll support DeviousAttrs.

 

However, DeviousAttrs could choose to support DF, and given the way it works, that would fit the pattern of how it supports DCL, SD+, etc.

 

Because DeviousAttrs is almost entirely about stat modifiers that you have to open a menu to see, it's not very immersive, and it has something of a simulationist approach - the complexity of it doesn't deliver bang for buck in terms of gameplay. Impressive how it tracks so many events though.

[Nazzzgul666]

I agree that forcegreet sometimes would be nice, i'd limit it to urban areas, though. Not entirely sure how Skyrim draws the border, the road between whiterun and the brewery would still be urban enough but outside the city gates. I wouldn't like it that much when i'm sneaking towards or even into a bandit camp or such, though.

And ofc not during battle, vampires and dragons can still appear there. To avoid script lag scipping the check, i'd add a timer after fast travel, something like

fast travel -> wait 10 seconds -> check if in battle -> forcegreet.

It might be nice while traveling too, but... quite hard to do proper checks to avoid it triggers short before actually beeing in battle. Since i pretty much sneak into every planned fight, no forcegreet while sneaking would probably work too at least for me.

[Lozeak]

So many posts, kinda hard to keep up.

 

Force greets, a way to force deals, special offers are all things on the table I want to finish all the deals first though ^^.

I see no reason to not add this kind of content, I just want to do one thing at a time :). 

 

Devious-attributes: Basically, no. I talked about in length before. More stat nope, using a mod I can't control nope.

 

 

 

 

[Mexicola88]

Just wondering if your mod reaches it's final version update, well the point when you say your mod is done, are you still gonna release some updates for new devices that get added with DD 4.2 for example? I mean it shouldn't be so much work then right? Only adding new devices as possible deals or whatever. Isn't it maybe just some copy & paste at some point, after the most work is already done? I have no idea about modding, but i guess if the most work is already done, and it's only about adding small new updates, this shouldn't be a problem right?

 

I know you want to move on to new mods, just wondering what is planned.

 

Sorry about my lousy english.  

[Lozeak]

18 minutes ago, Mexicola88 said:

Just wondering if your mod reaches it's final version update, well the point when you say your mod is done, are you still gonna release some updates for new devices that get added with DD 4.2 for example? I mean it shouldn't be so much work then right? Only adding new devices as possible deals or whatever. Isn't it maybe just some copy & paste at some point, after the most work is already done? I have no idea about modding, but i guess if the most work is already done, and it's only about adding small new updates, this shouldn't be a problem right?

 

I know you want to move on to new mods, just wondering what is planned.

 

Sorry about my lousy english.  

3

 

I can't really set out a plan further than 2.0 cause well this is a hobby. I may make another mod, I may aim for 3.0, I may stop modding all together. It's a hobby so I'll never commit to it fully (unless pateron blows up and I can quit my job ). 

As I feel at the moment, I love being able to create things people enjoy and it gives my life means so I don't think I'll be stopping anytime soon but the world is a werid place so no idea what might happen tomorrow :).

 

As long as I'm interested with the mod I will add things even if I start another mod.

 

Regardless, I ❤️ player slavery mods and bondage sooooo yea whatever I make if you like this you'll like what I make next (most content I make I want to follow the same mantra of being able to play Skyrim while feeling like your a slave).

 

[Verstort]

When a follower approaches the player for sex under the ownership quest, the belt is supposed to be removed before sex, but if the player is wearing a chastity harness it doesn't work. (harness is allowed under the corset/harness deal)

 

Looks like the code for that dialogue is this:

libs.ManipulateGenericDeviceByKeyword(playerref, Libs.Zad_Deviousbelt, False)

 

Which shouldn't work for all belts but only the one belt you pass the function, in this case the default belt in libs. was looking at the wrong function

 

This should be fixable with this code:

Actor player = Game.GetPlayer()
; "DD slot reference: https://github.com/DeviousDevices/Docs/wiki/Slot-Usage-Reference"
; "Skyrim SKSE slot reference: https://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=Slot_Masks_-_Armor"
Armor armor_ptr = player.GetWornForm( 0x00080000 ) as Armor ; "belts should be in slot 49"
if armor_ptr && armor_ptr.HasKeyword(libs.zad_DeviousBelt) && !armor_ptr.HasKeyword(libs.zad_BlockGeneric)
  libs.ManipulateGenericDevice(player, armor_ptr, False)
else ; "there wasn't a belt, let's try harness"
  armor_ptr = player.GetWornForm( 0x10000000 ) as Armor ; "harness' should be in slot 58"
  if armor_ptr && armor_ptr.HasKeyword(libs.zad_DeviousHarness) && !armor_ptr.HasKeyword(libs.zad_BlockGeneric) 
    libs.ManipulateGenericDevice(player, armor_ptr, False)
  endif
endif

This is more code than using WornHasKeyword, but is faster, and way faster than libs.GetWornDeviceFuzzyMatch

 

 

[HexBolt8]

2 hours ago, Lozeak said:

I love being able to create things people enjoy and it gives my life means so I don't think I'll be stopping anytime soon but the world is a werid place so no idea what might happen tomorrow :).

That's a wonderful sentiment, Lozeak.  Take your time, don't burn yourself out, and keep doing what you enjoy.