Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[Lupine00]

I re-acquired SS master in DF, and re-ran the simple slavery again. This time it gave me the correct master...

Marcurio is to be avoided due to his bugged hireling status I think.

 

This time the slavery outcome I got was slavery + deals, rather than just deals.

 

Outside the Bee and Barb again, follower decided that it was time to whore me out to everyone.

This seemed to be working pretty well, but somewhere along the way the "Master?" dialog vanished off the follower.

Nothing I've done since has been able to make it come back. Seems might it might be a serious problem.

Tried pausing and unpausing mod, it didn't come back.

 

This means I can't review the slavery rules, check debt, ask for more gold, or ask about game or enslavement status.

Also the DCL dialogs to ask for food/drink are gone (perhaps that's SLS though, as it has its own, alas SLS's own dialog options are not well balanced against RND).

Seems that now there is no way for me to end the gag game, or maybe it's working as intended? I hope not, because it seems counter intuitive.

Should be able to ask the follower for food/drink if they are my owner, but I can't. What am I supposed to do? Starve?

I can't buy food, or do any trading because of the mittens.

 

Due to the mittens, looting is difficult, or impossible. Kill a boss, and then, with nobody to fight, you can't loot the chests.

Severe problems in forts, where the status is not dungeon.

 

Reached an actual dungeon, immediately the follower announced farming time over, destroyed my gear, and locked me in chains.

I did the dungeon anyway, simply taking the hits and hoping not to die, because when the follower killed things, at least I could loot them.

 

 

While there are some parts of the slavery that feel awesome - the way the follower behaves, and the slavery games, for example - the inability to loot is perhaps too obstructive.

Supposedly, your job is to make money for the follower, but you aren't allowed to.

The mittens are nicely restrictive, but if you can't do things, the follower needs to do them for you, and DF doesn't have that sort of capability.

 

Then when faced with an actual dungeon, you aren't really allowed to do anything either.

(I think this bug was already raised, and blamed on an old save, but my game was new to this version of DF).

 

If the mittens took longer to revert from gloves, you might at least be able to loot ... something.

I think it's a given that if you go into actual combat (not just draw weapon), mittens should stay gloves until you change area.

Maybe you should need to get hit or something, but as it is, it's not practical to play.

 

The follower shouldn't decide to go home in dungeons quite so easily.

They should have to run out of lives or something similar before they want to leave.

I don't believe my follower was even knocked down once.

 

Destroying your gear just because the follower wants to leave is probably a bit too hard as well. This just makes me console my gear back, as I totally disagree with it.

If the follower took all your stuff and sold it, that I could accept, but asking you to make cash for them, then making it so you both die is just pain nonsense.

 

Add that to that, uncertainty at times about whether an area is a town or not (and it seems lots of non-town places appear to be towns as far as the follower is concerned) and there are some problems with the devices. You get yoked just for removing slave boots in a bandit fort. It's not a town! But hey, I can't check the rules on what I have to wear and when either, because the option went away!

 

 

Follower shouldn't gag you and give no way to get free, but I guess this is a bug, with the gag-game never ending, and the dialogs broken?

 

Also, due to the traps issue, DF followers really ought to be "trap aware" and not trigger them (be given the lightfoot perk). I've had a follower suicide on a trap over-and-over-and-over, and it's just annoying and silly, but Skyrim follower AI is retarded about traps and they never avoid the plates (but can be set not to trigger them). If the trap knocks them back, they will trigger it over and over. Maybe I need to find a mod that fixes followers, because I'm not using any follower framework or other helpers.

 

At the moment, with the broken dialogs, the broken gag game that never ends, the mitten behaviour, and the going home from dungeons as soon as you get in, the gear destroying, the almost total inability to loot, trade, or obtain food and drink, the slavery mode just isn't playable, yet.

 

It's a pity, because it's so close, really, really close, but it's just not there and working yet.

It it was, with one or two more mini-games it would be fantastic.

 

[Lupine00]

A couple more little issues.

1) The initial slavery message pop-up lacks the global substitution flag, so displays brackets and variable names.

2) After SS enslavement, you get your willpower reset to 10.

 

[Hex Bolt]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Supposedly, your job is to make money for the follower, but you aren't allowed to.

The mittens are nicely restrictive, but if you can't do things, the follower needs to do them for you, and DF doesn't have that sort of capability.

It would help if the follower could loot for you.  I've seen some mods that open a special popup menu if you click a container while sneaking.  If this mod could do that, and offer "Loot Normally" and "Follower Takes Loot" options, it would ease a lot of the frustration. 

 

I'm thinking that "Follower Takes Loot" would send all items in that container to the follower's inventory except gold and weightless items (arrows, treasure maps, etc.), unless DF is also going to credit you for the gold.  The mod would also have to be careful about not taking quest items. 

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Add that to that, uncertainty at times about whether an area is a town or not (and it seems lots of non-town places appear to be towns as far as the follower is concerned)

This seems to be a Skyrim thing.  I've noticed with SL Adventures that a broad area outside Whiterun's walls is designated as "city".  I believe that the mods are just using the base game's location designations.  It IS frustrating.  Even with area change notifications turned on, the player has very little time to notice and react.  A 10 second grace period on changing areas would help. 

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Also, due to the traps issue, DF followers really ought to be "trap aware" and not trigger them (be given the lightfoot perk).

I blame this on Bethesda rather than any mod, especially since followers seem to aim right for every trap.  But it's easy enough just to give a follower the Lightfoot perk with the console, or add that to a custom follower mod if it's one I intend to use again, so that's been solution.  That said, this is a follower mod, so perhaps Lozeak would want to add an option for this. 

[matekun]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Supposedly, your job is to make money for the follower, but you aren't allowed to.

The mittens are nicely restrictive, but if you can't do things, the follower needs to do them for you, and DF doesn't have that sort of capability.

Things that don't allow you to use hands are problematic,I found myself with armbinder,or with the ropes from slut deal stage 3 having to run from enemies for awhile until npcs or follower finally kill them.Even in towns we have attacks like dragons,vampires,bandits or any random enemies you have from other mods.

 

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

At the moment, with the broken dialogs, the broken gag game that never ends, the mitten behaviour, and the going home from dungeons as soon as you get in, the gear destroying, the almost total inability to loot, trade, or obtain food and drink, the slavery mode just isn't playable, yet.

I tried the slavery mode.

It totally kidnapped my game,my girl ended in a bottomless pit of debts having to prostitute herself 24/7 in an inn full of devious devices just to pay the day to day debts.

 

Also it will be nice if the follower is not in "cash only" mode.Sometimes I have 4-6k in values and jewels but too far from any merchant.

[Lupine00]

As I don't want people to get too negative an impression of slavery mode, I think it's worth mentioning what I liked about it.

 

The initial introduction box where you have the choice to be enslaved or dumped in a pit, in SS, is a great option. It creates the right atmosphere, and offers a chance you can recover, whichever option you take. (Though if you use SLS, the pit option is probably impossible to recover from, but that's an SLS problem).

 

The rules dialog is also good atmosphere, and then as you equip all the items and see the effects, you really get the impression of being in serious trouble. I think it's way better than SD+ because once you have all that stuff on you, you have to make a plan and execute it - you don't just stand around waiting to be raped.

 

The crawling seemed to work pretty well at first, and I didn't have any problems.

 

Then, when the follower goes into full exploitation mode, it's funny, and a bit worrying. If you've played the old non-slavery straight-jacket game, and know how long that can take to complete, you are primed to expect having to endure a lot of (unhelpful) sex scenes. There's the assumption that willpower will have no chance of getting above zero, and if you use Apropos, some nasty debuffs coming up.

 

It was a pity that this went "strange" for me, and stopped working properly. I expected to be able to talk the the follower and get a status update, even if it was just "I'll be selling those holes of yours to pay my keep for a long time to come, so get used to it." Instead the "Master" dialog vanished. Not sure if this is related to SLS, or totally a DF problem, but until then, it was working great.

 

At times crawling would go weird, making the PC stand up and pop down again repeatedly. Seemed to be related to the process of starting sex scenes, possibly. I think Sexlab expects you to be standing before it starts its animation, and often moves you into position, in a standing idle, with a delay before things kick off. Seems possible that DF is trying to reapply the crawl in that situation, with awkward results.

 

SD+ has the keys to transition between crawl, kneel and stand, and maybe DF could make some use of kneel too eventually, but I didn't really miss it, or the SD+ key-bindings that seem to always get overridden by the master anyway.

 

Unarmed combat with the mittens was surprisingly effective, and also lethal, not sure what happens if you are wearing them when you enter a brawl...

 

Even crawling, and stuck in the mittens, I had the idea that I could make some progress, travelling, fighting, looting, but it turned out that looting was really a problem. The follower just leaves all the valuables to rot, and there's nothing you can do to loot with the mittens on unless you have multiple opponents and you can loot one while the other is still attacking. This is quite challenging, trying to get something valuable off wolves, bears and so on, but mostly you can't succeed.

 

I was hoping that once I got a few more enemies, I could loot a lot more stuff and make some progress, and there was still a feeling that progress was possible, but suitably difficult and challenging. (Though I had the shadow of the missing Master dialog, making me think my game was probably dead-walking).

 

In a bandit fort, it was possible to loot some stuff, but most of the time the bandits wouldn't attack together and it was a real problem to loot one while another was attacking. Another issue that showed up then was chests - unlootable in most cases - items lying around - unlootable in most cases - and locked doors or chests - no way to attempt to pick them. It was a bit too frustrating to leave all that loot just sitting there, when the follower was obviously expecting me to bring in the money.

 

Then I tried to remove the town collar, convinced it was only required near a town, but the follower went mental and put me in a yoke.

 

After many many struggles and difficulties, finally arrived at a dungeon, expecting to get free and do some fighting. Instead, all hopes were dashed by the follower ripping off my armor (and destroying it, presumably, as there was no trace of it afterwards) and insisting on going home immediately. This was a step too far. Unable to talk to the follower, unable to make any money, and not really able to play Skyrim any more, it was all over. My game is abandoned, the only thing I can do to rescue it is to reset DF and go on as if nothing ever happened. It feels like a cheat, and I can't be bothered, but for a while, it was a wild ride.

 

For a long time there was the impression of serious difficulty, and a hard struggle ahead. I don't think any mod has quite conjured up the feeling of being in such dire straits while still having a hope of escape. While the slavery in DCL is a long, long, boring slog to get out of, it's boring and repetitive, but never difficult, but the DF slavery situation was exactly what it should be: alarmingly tough.

 

If the looting issue could be addressed, perhaps as some have suggested, by allowing you to ask the follower to loot repeatedly (and in an efficient way - the regular follower dialog for asking to loot is way too cumbersome).

 

Personally, I wouldn't do it like that though... Instead, if you have mittens on, when you pick up items, they could go to the follower's inventory directly instead of being thrown on the ground - it's like the follower is doing the looting, and as a player you're directing the follower's actions. I think this would be better than stealth looting causing the follower to grab random crap out of chests. With this approach, you could grab items that aren't in containers, or loot containers, and it would all go to the follower, and it would be selective - but you'd never get to hold the items or have them in your inventory.

 

 

What's missing from all the slavery mods is the idea of the follower really being in charge. It's weird that you're the one that calls the shots, has to pay the inn bills, book rooms, buy food, sell stuff at vendors, and so on. Even weirder, that you, as a slave, are struggling to talk to strangers through a gag, so you can offer to help them. Obviously, so obviously, the follower should be the one in charge, doing these things, and you should be the pack mule, carrying their crap, given food when they want to give it, told to sleep when they want to sleep, and so on. SD+ gets tiny parts of this right, but no mod is really doing it. It sounds hard, and well... it is hard (probably impossible really), but there are ways DF could build up the illusion a bit more.

 

 

There is a mod (BWitch) that creates the impression that the follower talks to the vendor, and sales are done using their "skill" instead of yours. Basically that would mean you get no bonus for speech. It would certainly moderate your income a bit, but might be a way out of a deep hole if you are seriously messed up by Skooma or something. Of course, in that setup, it's still you doing everything, but the little changes to the generic vendor dialogs make it feel a lot different.

 

A fairly basic mechanic could really make the PC feel small and helpless. If you approached an innkeeper, and instead of being able to talk, you got a "scene" where the follower and innkeeper chat about renting a room, and the innkeeper asks the follower where they want to put the slave, etc. Then a popup where you can pick from limited options... It would immersively create the atmosphere where the follower is the boss. You don't get to shop for food, instead you get to pick "Rent a room", "Food and drink," "Rent a room with food and drink." "Nothing right now." Or something like that. If you get food and drink, it's a generous amount, but when you leave the inn, any unused food or drink could be removed from your inventory. This would cover most needs mods, but stop you from stockpiling, so you have to rely on the follower's good will. If you've been bad, you don't get the food and drink options in the popup. There could be regular dialog options to beg your master to forgive you, etc.

 

I know not everyone uses a needs mod, but if you are doing slavery, needs mods really make sense and offer genuinely meaningful play options. DF becomes exhausting with its money fixation, and moving to a slavery situation where you have to worry about food, drink, and sleep, switch things up in an interesting way. But I also think that outside of slavery, a needs mod is just busy-work clicking. This is why I have my own needs mod now, and if I want it to support a particular mod, I just add what I want, but mostly all you need is for the food/drink items to be provided or denied, so that stuff can work. Alas, SLS forced me to switch back to (an old buggy version of) RND for this latest game, but neither of them will be in my next game.

 

So there are lots that DF could do to slavery, and probably very few of these things are "in scope" but a fix for looting in mittens, and a review of reliability of slavery dialogs would probably make it playable.

[Lozeak]

On 7/26/2018 at 4:10 AM, Verstort said:

When a follower approaches the player for sex under the ownership quest, the belt is supposed to be removed before sex, but if the player is wearing a chastity harness it doesn't work. (harness is allowed under the corset/harness deal)

 

Looks like the code for that dialogue is this:

libs.ManipulateGenericDeviceByKeyword(playerref, Libs.Zad_Deviousbelt, False)

 

Which shouldn't work for all belts but only the one belt you pass the function, in this case the default belt in libs. was looking at the wrong function

 

This should be fixable with this code:

Actor player = Game.GetPlayer()
; "DD slot reference: https://github.com/DeviousDevices/Docs/wiki/Slot-Usage-Reference"
; "Skyrim SKSE slot reference: https://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=Slot_Masks_-_Armor"
Armor armor_ptr = player.GetWornForm( 0x00080000 ) as Armor ; "belts should be in slot 49"
if armor_ptr && armor_ptr.HasKeyword(libs.zad_DeviousBelt) && !armor_ptr.HasKeyword(libs.zad_BlockGeneric)
  libs.ManipulateGenericDevice(player, armor_ptr, False)
else ; "there wasn't a belt, let's try harness"
  armor_ptr = player.GetWornForm( 0x10000000 ) as Armor ; "harness' should be in slot 58"
  if armor_ptr && armor_ptr.HasKeyword(libs.zad_DeviousHarness) && !armor_ptr.HasKeyword(libs.zad_BlockGeneric) 
    libs.ManipulateGenericDevice(player, armor_ptr, False)
  endif
endif

This is more code than using WornHasKeyword, but is faster, and way faster than libs.GetWornDeviceFuzzyMatch

 

 

Thank you  

 

I'll look into this.

On 7/27/2018 at 9:31 AM, gurdilhfkk said:

After playing 5 hours with a follower (with deal and slavery) i can say that your mod run very smoothly. no CTD, no bug, although my game is heavy modded.

 

Just a small thing, and i dont know if its come from your mod or not. When my character is enslaved, and forgot to wear mittens/boots, i got a gag and a yoke (this part is fine, its just to show where its happens). Back in town i have the dialogue where my character have to whore herself 10 times (still perfectly OK).

 

But if there is near my character, lets say only a dog an NPC, something weird happens. I see in the corner an animation for creatures, dog stack on me (like it does for gang bang animation setup). Then i immediatly see another animation in the corner, a human-human animation, and my character plays this animation with the creature idle. Sometime its a gangbang animation which is called, so the NPC comes too. But the animation played is in this case an another human-human animation (for 2 actors only), with my character as aggressor.

 

I activated creature animation in sexlab, and in devious follower too. i'm using SLSO too, so i dont know from where this bug is coming.

 

(yeah my english is terrible)

 

 

 

Hmm, not sure what's happening there, it might be down to animation filtering causing issues (you can tweak in DD/Zap/Sexlab/SLAL settings)

 

On 7/27/2018 at 9:40 AM, Krynn said:

I can not say right now if the error is in this mod, but sometimes my player can not attack anymore, so do not pull weapons, etc.
after my companion has put me in these chains and me then the chains decreases again it works all at once again.

 

Not sure where this is from but it happens to me (from other mods) Deequip/equip a weapon seems to fix it.

 

On 7/27/2018 at 11:56 AM, Lupine00 said:

I like these suggestions for gold control, but I didn't ask for anything similar because I figured they were such obvious additions that if Lozeak wanted them, he'd add them without being asked. Sometimes being able to take a deal for immediate cash in gold control mode would make sense though.

 

Does DF occasionally silently steal all your gold now?

 

I keep finding my gold is zero, but I'm not 100% sure if it's DF, and the follower isn't saying or doing anything special when it happens.

This could be down to SLS, so this is a perfect example of behaviour it would be nice to have documented by the responsible mod, whichever one it is.

 

Another mystery behaviour... Out of nowhere, but around the same time that I paid my follower and was "rewarded" with vibrations, I got a message informing me I'd become a milk maid.

 

Was this DF?

If so, why didn't the follower explain what had happened, or say anything about it at all?

 

I can't think of any other mod that might have done it.

Alas, rather than life-changing, the addition is harmless/meaningless, because without adding lactacid, there's zero milk production, so MME isn't doing anything meaningful. My character is registered in it, but that's all.

 

I believe that in older versions of MME, milk was always produced by maids, regardless of other circumstances - but now you have to be pregnant or have lactacid, otherwise production does not increase.

 

 

If DF is trying to make the PC a milkmaid, it needs to make more fanfare about such an important event - it would be hugely improved by some appropriate gloating from the follower, and then continued "gifts" of lactacid. Even better still if the follower started to make demands about the milk.

 

So on Area change/knockdown/debt update, there is a chance gold is reduced (MCM for this) so it should slowly reduce your gold idea being spend too much time without resting you won't have gold to rest at inn. (I will test/check code to make sure it's working via the MCM settings)

 

Gold mode explanation message needs tweaking too (on to do list)

 

100% there is no tie in other mods that are not requirements outside Rape tattoos/Simple slavery.  

 

15 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

As I don't want people to get too negative an impression of slavery mode, I think it's worth mentioning what I liked about it.

 

The initial introduction box where you have the choice to be enslaved or dumped in a pit, in SS, is a great option. It creates the right atmosphere, and offers a chance you can recover, whichever option you take. (Though if you use SLS, the pit option is probably impossible to recover from, but that's an SLS problem).

 

The rules dialog is also good atmosphere, and then as you equip all the items and see the effects, you really get the impression of being in serious trouble. I think it's way better than SD+ because once you have all that stuff on you, you have to make a plan and execute it - you don't just stand around waiting to be raped.

 

The crawling seemed to work pretty well at first, and I didn't have any problems.

 

Then, when the follower goes into full exploitation mode, it's funny, and a bit worrying. If you've played the old non-slavery straight-jacket game, and know how long that can take to complete, you are primed to expect having to endure a lot of (unhelpful) sex scenes. There's the assumption that willpower will have no chance of getting above zero, and if you use Apropos, some nasty debuffs coming up.

 

It was a pity that this went "strange" for me, and stopped working properly. I expected to be able to talk the the follower and get a status update, even if it was just "I'll be selling those holes of yours to pay my keep for a long time to come, so get used to it." Instead the "Master" dialog vanished. Not sure if this is related to SLS, or totally a DF problem, but until then, it was working great.

 

At times crawling would go weird, making the PC stand up and pop down again repeatedly. Seemed to be related to the process of starting sex scenes, possibly. I think Sexlab expects you to be standing before it starts its animation, and often moves you into position, in a standing idle, with a delay before things kick off. Seems possible that DF is trying to reapply the crawl in that situation, with awkward results.

 

SD+ has the keys to transition between crawl, kneel and stand, and maybe DF could make some use of kneel too eventually, but I didn't really miss it, or the SD+ key-bindings that seem to always get overridden by the master anyway.

 

Unarmed combat with the mittens was surprisingly effective, and also lethal, not sure what happens if you are wearing them when you enter a brawl...

 

Even crawling, and stuck in the mittens, I had the idea that I could make some progress, travelling, fighting, looting, but it turned out that looting was really a problem. The follower just leaves all the valuables to rot, and there's nothing you can do to loot with the mittens on unless you have multiple opponents and you can loot one while the other is still attacking. This is quite challenging, trying to get something valuable off wolves, bears and so on, but mostly you can't succeed.

 

I was hoping that once I got a few more enemies, I could loot a lot more stuff and make some progress, and there was still a feeling that progress was possible, but suitably difficult and challenging. (Though I had the shadow of the missing Master dialog, making me think my game was probably dead-walking).

 

In a bandit fort, it was possible to loot some stuff, but most of the time the bandits wouldn't attack together and it was a real problem to loot one while another was attacking. Another issue that showed up then was chests - unlootable in most cases - items lying around - unlootable in most cases - and locked doors or chests - no way to attempt to pick them. It was a bit too frustrating to leave all that loot just sitting there, when the follower was obviously expecting me to bring in the money.

 

Then I tried to remove the town collar, convinced it was only required near a town, but the follower went mental and put me in a yoke.

 

After many many struggles and difficulties, finally arrived at a dungeon, expecting to get free and do some fighting. Instead, all hopes were dashed by the follower ripping off my armor (and destroying it, presumably, as there was no trace of it afterwards) and insisting on going home immediately. This was a step too far. Unable to talk to the follower, unable to make any money, and not really able to play Skyrim any more, it was all over. My game is abandoned, the only thing I can do to rescue it is to reset DF and go on as if nothing ever happened. It feels like a cheat, and I can't be bothered, but for a while, it was a wild ride.

 

For a long time there was the impression of serious difficulty, and a hard struggle ahead. I don't think any mod has quite conjured up the feeling of being in such dire straits while still having a hope of escape. While the slavery in DCL is a long, long, boring slog to get out of, it's boring and repetitive, but never difficult, but the DF slavery situation was exactly what it should be: alarmingly tough.

 

If the looting issue could be addressed, perhaps as some have suggested, by allowing you to ask the follower to loot repeatedly (and in an efficient way - the regular follower dialog for asking to loot is way too cumbersome).

 

Personally, I wouldn't do it like that though... Instead, if you have mittens on, when you pick up items, they could go to the follower's inventory directly instead of being thrown on the ground - it's like the follower is doing the looting, and as a player you're directing the follower's actions. I think this would be better than stealth looting causing the follower to grab random crap out of chests. With this approach, you could grab items that aren't in containers, or loot containers, and it would all go to the follower, and it would be selective - but you'd never get to hold the items or have them in your inventory.

 

 

What's missing from all the slavery mods is the idea of the follower really being in charge. It's weird that you're the one that calls the shots, has to pay the inn bills, book rooms, buy food, sell stuff at vendors, and so on. Even weirder, that you, as a slave, are struggling to talk to strangers through a gag, so you can offer to help them. Obviously, so obviously, the follower should be the one in charge, doing these things, and you should be the pack mule, carrying their crap, given food when they want to give it, told to sleep when they want to sleep, and so on. SD+ gets tiny parts of this right, but no mod is really doing it. It sounds hard, and well... it is hard (probably impossible really), but there are ways DF could build up the illusion a bit more.

 

 

There is a mod (BWitch) that creates the impression that the follower talks to the vendor, and sales are done using their "skill" instead of yours. Basically that would mean you get no bonus for speech. It would certainly moderate your income a bit, but might be a way out of a deep hole if you are seriously messed up by Skooma or something. Of course, in that setup, it's still you doing everything, but the little changes to the generic vendor dialogs make it feel a lot different.

 

A fairly basic mechanic could really make the PC feel small and helpless. If you approached an innkeeper, and instead of being able to talk, you got a "scene" where the follower and innkeeper chat about renting a room, and the innkeeper asks the follower where they want to put the slave, etc. Then a popup where you can pick from limited options... It would immersively create the atmosphere where the follower is the boss. You don't get to shop for food, instead you get to pick "Rent a room", "Food and drink," "Rent a room with food and drink." "Nothing right now." Or something like that. If you get food and drink, it's a generous amount, but when you leave the inn, any unused food or drink could be removed from your inventory. This would cover most needs mods, but stop you from stockpiling, so you have to rely on the follower's good will. If you've been bad, you don't get the food and drink options in the popup. There could be regular dialog options to beg your master to forgive you, etc.

 

I know not everyone uses a needs mod, but if you are doing slavery, needs mods really make sense and offer genuinely meaningful play options. DF becomes exhausting with its money fixation, and moving to a slavery situation where you have to worry about food, drink, and sleep, switch things up in an interesting way. But I also think that outside of slavery, a needs mod is just busy-work clicking. This is why I have my own needs mod now, and if I want it to support a particular mod, I just add what I want, but mostly all you need is for the food/drink items to be provided or denied, so that stuff can work. Alas, SLS forced me to switch back to (an old buggy version of) RND for this latest game, but neither of them will be in my next game.

 

So there are lots that DF could do to slavery, and probably very few of these things are "in scope" but a fix for looting in mittens, and a review of reliability of slavery dialogs would probably make it playable.

24

 

Yes the slavery outcome does is kinda basic, it's something I'd like to come back to but their other parts of the mod I want to work on first. I have added alternate paths (Endless mode/SS outcome) if it's something people don't enjoy. I would like to add different outcomes but that is not a goal of 2.0.

 

People complaining about not picking up stuff with the mitten.... there is a setting in the DD MCM for that.

 

Fixation on money is just how this mod works and tries to balance its self-round Skyrim. One day I may make a system based on a relationship system (maybe) but that would be a huge amount of work.

 

Outside of needs, one of the deals I have a plan is you have to carry a resource for your follower and can only top it up at inn, this is more to have a deal that takes up some inventory space than follow the needs of the follower.

 

Follower getting in the way of key NPCs, is probably a new system I can work on if/when I expand more on this mod. Follower becoming a shop/auto vendor might happen pre 2.0 if things work out.

 

On 7/28/2018 at 3:33 PM, jfraser said:

A request, which you may, of course, choose to ignore: I'd like the MCM to include the ability to choose which genders would do this to you (only males, only females, both). 

 

I might add a gender toggle one day but outside of that, you can flag followers to disable via the MCM. Things that happen outside of the follower, it might be too much work to restrict the mod to one gender (follower wise).

 

For example, Jarl game would have to go through so many checks it would be a real pain to make bug free. So an MCM for that kind of stuff won't happen :(.

 

 

=====================================================================

 

Where I am? annoyingly I have a ton of time but my inspiration isn't high enough to make content ><. I am however, tweaking/fixing things and plan to do this daily for a while.

 

I fixed some bugs in the SS outcome stuff (to take account of new deal options) and Gag force greet bug and deal messages.

 

However, I am grateful for all the posts, I have tried to read em all but I probably missed something! 

 

[Bizzarini]

Hey, great mod!!

I've found a bug - I can't buy out the Clothing deal, it's simply not on the list.

Also I think that adding gold debt as punishment is boring - let the follower spank you as punishment instead!!

And maybe adding a collar when enslavement mode kicks in...

[mai_hasegawa]

About losing gold randomly - happens to me too.

I don't have Sexlab Stories installed (I assume that's SLS you're referring to) - and when I had it installed for a long time, I never had this issue.

 

Gold silently drops to 0, or, once, it just decreased by exactly 1000.

I cannot seem to reproduce it with any steps that come to mind. It's not tied to any immediate action, just happens in the background.

 

I've added a bunch of sexlab mods this time, can't pinpoint which one could be responsible, however, none but DF manage money outside of rape/theft.

 

It makes me want to let follower control the gold just to avoid checking it myself and reloading, but that itself has an issue - balancing savings, risks and fun with DF would be even worse, I either never run into trouble with the amount of loot I get, or I would never make any savings.

 

Sometimes I wish gold control was part of separate banking mod just to accompany this one's "fixation on money".

[mai_hasegawa]

43 minutes ago, Bizzarini said:

Hey, great mod!!

I've found a bug - I can't buy out the Clothing deal, it's simply not on the list.

Also I think that adding gold debt as punishment is boring - let the follower spank you as punishment instead!!

And maybe adding a collar when enslavement mode kicks in...

Three deals that impact clothing:

- stage 2 of the plug deal (whore outfits)

- stage 2 of slut deal - will be stripped in towns

- stage 3 of piercing deal I believe - be naked when talking to people

 

Collar is part of the very first deal on the list, but I'm not sure how it plays out in slavery mode.

[Krynn]

no with me it does not fix the problem. only when my companion creates these chains for me and this then removes me again it works.

[eulexia]

When you are locked in a chastity belt and have a slut deal, and the slut deal triggers the person to want to have sex with you, you and the 'target' both masturbate.  It should instead trigger your character being made to give oral sex instead, assuming your mouth is free.  

 

If you're gagged and belted, then they probably shouldn't try to have sex with you.  Possibly they should do something else nasty.  

[Krynn]

I have another question please.
what should this black leather pet suite be?
This looks very strange on my character.
Does it have a bodyslide under caliente?

 

Edit:

In Morthal by the Jarl.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, Lozeak said:

So on Area change/knockdown/debt update, there is a chance gold is reduced (MCM for this) so it should slowly reduce your gold idea being spend too much time without resting you won't have gold to rest at inn. (I will test/check code to make sure it's working via the MCM settings)

 

Gold mode explanation message needs tweaking too (on to do list)

If this was the "gold theft" feature, it's seriously broken, because I had that set to max 40%, and reduced with lower willpower. In every case I had cash vanish, it was my entire cash supply, in one case over 3600 in one instant, in several others, amounts over 2000 instantly vanished.

 

They were not removed incrementally, it was all my cash at once. So, seems like this feature is bugged somehow?

 

Also, the heading for this feature, says in big bold writing "Gold theft after sex", which is super-duper misleading if it actually means "Gold theft on area-change/knockdown/debt update".

 

[Lupine00]

6 hours ago, Lozeak said:

People complaining about not picking up stuff with the mitten.... there is a setting in the DD MCM for that.

 

The problem is not that you can't pick things up while wearing mittens. I don't want to turn that off, they wouldn't be mittens then!

The mittens are, in general, fun, and add great atmosphere, they really ramp up difficulty and cause problems in town and so on. I like that.

 

The point with the mittens is that sometimes times they are supposed to be gloves so you can fight (or loot).

They aren't simply vanilla DD mittens. Their design intent is different.

 

 

But basically what I would like is this:

 

1) Mittens stay gloves for a bit longer after combat ends, so short breaks in combat don't cause problems.

2) A way to loot things after combat, suggestions for this already posted.

3) Follower should issue a warning before punishing for any rule infraction that is based on being in a specific area type.

4) Follower shouldn't decide to leave dungeon areas for a "break back in town" unless they are out of lives or some similar predictable reason.

 

 

I justify this as follows:

 

1) Currently mittens can snap back after combat immediately, but then combat starts again, mittens lag and you're hit three times before they turn back to gloves, and only then can you start to re-equip. A little grace time would avoid problems with lag, and irritating flip-flopping of mitten status.

 

2) If you can't loot things, there is no reason to fight, you are probably better off grinding prostitution, but that is not really skyrim, it's just boring.

 

3) How else are you supposed to know that you've entered a forbidden area? Really? Right now you have to run around watching the top left all the time, then immediately click up the menu to fix your items. In some cases the follower is punishing you before you even see the scrolling message about area type (if you even have it turned on). Besides, you shouldn't have to have that message turned on in the first-place; it's a band-aid for a problem that deserves a proper "immersive" solution.

 

4) This is just plain bugged right now. You enter a dungeon area, by the time you get near to fighting something the follower demands to leave and slaps you in chains before you even have a chance to leave. It's simply not working in a way that is even remotely fun (or fair). It seems the intent is that you can play dungeons somewhat normally, but you can't. Once you're chained, you can't fight at all.

[Lupine00]

Some other little issues:

 

If you reset the mod, and dismiss follower, follower has options to dismiss and to recruit at the same time, they are not dismissed properly.

 

If you pause, reset and dismiss your follower, gold control still runs, though the follower appears to be dismissed.

You remain stuck at whatever gold level you had when you dismissed the follower.

 

Game hosed, not much you can do at that point apart from uninstall DF and clean the save.

 

I discovered this when trying to bail out of the broken situation where the follower had lost the main interaction dialog entry, so there may have been something else broken before this happened. However, I believe that gold control doesn't stop when paused even when everything is going smoothly. I observed this issue even when follower was working perfectly.

 

I tried all kinds of things to try and get DF to reset properly, hiring and dismissing follower repeatedly, etc, no joy. Gold control remained in effect and DF specific dialogs never appeared.

[Lozeak]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

The problem is not that you can't pick things up while wearing mittens. I don't want to turn that off, they wouldn't be mittens then!

The mittens are, in general, fun, and add great atmosphere, they really ramp up difficulty and cause problems in town and so on. I like that.

 

The point with the mittens is that sometimes times they are supposed to be gloves so you can fight (or loot).

They aren't simply vanilla DD mittens. Their design intent is different.

 

 

But basically what I would like is this:

 

1) Mittens stay gloves for a bit longer after combat ends, so short breaks in combat don't cause problems.

2) A way to loot things after combat, suggestions for this already posted.

3) Follower should issue a warning before punishing for any rule infraction that is based on being in a specific area type.

4) Follower shouldn't decide to leave dungeon areas for a "break back in town" unless they are out of lives or some similar predictable reason.

 

 

I justify this as follows:

 

1) Currently mittens can snap back after combat immediately, but then combat starts again, mittens lag and you're hit three times before they turn back to gloves, and only then can you start to re-equip. A little grace time would avoid problems with lag, and irritating flip-flopping of mitten status.

 

2) If you can't loot things, there is no reason to fight, you are probably better off grinding prostitution, but that is not really skyrim, it's just boring.

 

3) How else are you supposed to know that you've entered a forbidden area? Really? Right now you have to run around watching the top left all the time, then immediately click up the menu to fix your items. In some cases the follower is punishing you before you even see the scrolling message about area type (if you even have it turned on). Besides, you shouldn't have to have that message turned on in the first-place; it's a band-aid for a problem that deserves a proper "immersive" solution.

 

4) This is just plain bugged right now. You enter a dungeon area, by the time you get near to fighting something the follower demands to leave and slaps you in chains before you even have a chance to leave. It's simply not working in a way that is even remotely fun (or fair). It seems the intent is that you can play dungeons somewhat normally, but you can't. Once you're chained, you can't fight at all.

 

Enslave mode is not meant to be fair or nice, by design it needs to be something the player wants to avoid.

 

Its design intent is to make the player feel totally useless outside of dungeons. The mittens changing to gloves was a small concession I made to this because of how bad things could get if a dragon suddenly turned up or something but really if it was possible I'd want it so the mittens were always mittens.

So if you have the DD option so that you can't pick stuff up because you want mittens to work that way, then that's what should happen.

 

1) If you get into combat you can run/avoid damage until it changes not really an issue imo.

 

2) You can loot things in dungeons (follower should remove mitten/boots for you), that's the only place your follower will let you be free outside of that your a slave, maybe you should have made some deals or paid your follower.

 

3) Notifications are a quality of life thing cause the 'immersive' way to make sure is asking your follower what you should be wearing to make sure you don't break the rules, I thought  about making an auto-equip system but honestly, I want the player to lock the collar/mittens on themselves out of fear of being punished and being stuck in this mode for longer.

 

4) It's based on the event timer in MCM, make it longer if it happens too often for you.

 

Basically, I get what you're saying and the solution is not making to the enslaved mode forgiving and fair, it's making alternates modes (which I want to do) but things take time so that why there are an endless mode/SS outcomes to fill that gap until I can get around to it.

 

Gold mode bugs: Pause and gold disappearing randomly, I'll look into.

 

When your gold disappears via gold mode, it should not increase debt it's just your follower slowly reducing the amount of gold you're allowed to carry. So it's not gold theft it's gold reduction :P.

[Hex Bolt]

2 hours ago, Lozeak said:

Basically, I get what you're saying and the solution is not making to the enslaved mode forgiving and fair, it's making alternates modes (which I want to do) but things take time so that why there are an endless mode/SS outcomes to fill that gap until I can get around to it.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your reasoning behind how these systems work, Lozeak.  I think a lot of us were looking at the enslavement part as just a deeper hole to climb out of, and that being enslaved would be harsh but more or less fair.  As you've explained it, it's not a hole, it's a pit of despair, designed to be so unfair and miserable that the player wants to get out as soon as possible.  And it worked.  When I fell into enslavement, I worked my butt off to get out as fast I could.  Because I didn't like it.  Because it was so unfair. 

 

With a bit of imagination, I can even understand having to leave valuable loot behind outside of dungeons.  The follower smiles, watching the player struggle to pick up some valuable items and finally give up in frustration.  Then the follower walks over and takes it.  "I guess this is all mine then."  The follower still gets the loot (in this imaginary scenario), but the player doesn't get any debt reduction.  The life of a slave is unfair. 

 

2 hours ago, Lozeak said:

I want the player to lock the collar/mittens on themselves out of fear of being punished and being stuck in this mode for longer.

As soon as I read this, it clicked.  That's what happened.  After blundering into a new area wearing the wrong items and getting punished for it a few times, I became uncertain and apprehensive.  So I began locking on slave gear early out of fear, which probably made the follower grin.  Again, it's not so much about fair play (as gamers, we tend to look for clear rules and fair rewards and penalties).  It's about giving the player a certain experience.  It worked.  Welcome to a slave's life, where every day is unfair and you can be punished for any reason or no reason.  At least there's still hope (some hope) of climbing your way of the pit and regaining your freedom. 

 

Different topic:  I'm still having that problem dismissing my follower.  With willpower at 10, no deals, and having exited gold mode, with zero debt (I used the "follower will be dismissible" option), the follower kept demanding to be paid.  After a few iterations of paying zero debt, I gave up and used the quest reset debug option.  But it would be nice if I could exit normally through dialogue.  If it helps, the quest stage stayed at 10, which I think was blocking dismissing the follower. 

[lalabee]

I can't English well.... I want to seem as polite but I can sure about this.

 

Another suggestion you can(may)? ignore!

 

1) 

 

While playing this mod with gold control mode, I found something.

In PC's perspective, not mine, Gold Control mode is problematic since there is two problems.

 

(1) As already mentioned in description, When given gold is too low, PC have to whore her out.

(2) When given gold is too high, higher debt is made and consequently creating higher interests. Of course using other mod, just having higher gold is problem since it can be stolen.

 

Of course, just having moderate amount of gold isn't problem, but in existing setting of this mode(tweaking range of given gold) creates lots of amount of gold which is moderate.

for example, I assume that giving less than 100 gold make PC whore out and more than 4000 gold make worry about higher interest, in 100<x<4000 range, gold control function can be ignored because it's meaningless and has almost no problems.

 

So, I want to suggest that making 'distribution' setting of given gold in gold control mode, which select how much given gold can be dispersed in given range. for example, when that value is higher, given gold is almost extreme value. with lower value, amount of given gold will be moderate value.

 

2)

 

This mod is basically enslavement mod, and most important part of this mod will be deal(selling freedom), but I found that is quite linear because there is no change(just my thought although), So I want to suggest:

 

(1) How about Randomizing price of deal? Some day, 'Slut deal' is 1300 gold and removes 1000 debt, In another day, It costs 600 gold and removes 500 debt. Of course reject penalty can be applied. How about allowing PC to negotiate price such as "remove more debt!!!" or "that's too high"? but it should be limited to prevent removing its randomless.

 

(2) How about using other sort of device? for example, I didn't know it exist but I assume that there is 'armbinder deal', than use yoke and others in DDX or DDI with some change of dialogue and price((In plug or piercing), If some device has more vibrate/shock, than It gets more higher values). DDX has many of device.

Of course I know player can select own device, but player can select device randomly.

[Lupine00]

17 hours ago, Lozeak said:

Gold mode bugs: Pause and gold disappearing randomly, I'll look into.

Gold disappearing randomly isn't a gold control mode bug, it happens when you aren't in gold control.

Might be happening in gold control too, but too hard to tell.

[Krynn]

it would still be an idea of me...
You get a sign instead of the anal plug.
then a bell in the vagina.?!

and or a cry sound when you get the rape tattos.

 

[Lupine00]

18 hours ago, Lozeak said:

Basically, I get what you're saying and the solution is not making to the enslaved mode forgiving and fair, it's making alternates modes (which I want to do) but things take time so that why there are an endless mode/SS outcomes to fill that gap until I can get around to it.

I don't think you have got what I'm saying, as I don't want it to be forgiving... Difficulty is not my complain, lack of any remaining game is my complaint. I wrote in excruciating detail about what went wrong, and exactly when it went wrong, and how, and why it was not fun, or expected, or plausible as functioning correctly, but it's pretty plain what most people read from it was simply TLDNR followed by a lot of z z Z Z Z, or they skimmed it and took stuff out of context.

 

But fair? What is fair in a single-player game? What did that word mean when I used it with substantial caution and hedging?

 

Well... You know it's not fair when you're screaming obscenities at the screen; when the game lies to you, or promises one behaviour then delivers something entirely different; when you realise you just wasted your entire evening on a broken save; when the unwritten pact the game makes with the player to "be a game" is broken. Dark Souls may be hard, but people hate the bugs, not the game play.

 

 

Lozeak himself said that he didn't want DF to stop you playing Skyrim, but slavery mode does that. Apparently that was by design?! OK. Now we know. Put it on the front page please. I'll just accept that slavery is basically end-of-game and make sure it doesn't happen, it's easy enough to avoid.

 

 

Relying on the vanilla cell types produces some highly unanticipated results. That's putting it diplomatically. It would be a lot of work to make a comprehensive list of alternate "override" cell types - I'm not asking for that. Still, currently the follower behaves as if they are essentially insane, deciding you're in a town when you're in a fort, or in a dungeon when you're in a field. That's not keeping the player on their toes, that's just broken. The reason I care about this is because it's a mechanic that could be used outside of slavery if it worked properly, either by warning the player, or by allowing more time after cell change, and/or by communicating to the player properly what the cell is (left corner debug messages do not cut it).

 

 

The arbitrary behaviour would be "fair" if the follower had a track record of lying about the rules, and we were used to being cheated - or if the follower made a joke about how dumb you were to believe her, after she randomly decided to bind you for no good reason - but nowhere on the front-page did I read a note saying: "Hey, in slavery mode, the follower just talks shit, breaks the rules of the deals, and punishes you at random." As that's how it feels... In the main path of DF the follower does some non-deal stuff with games, but they are temporary interludes, not persistent behaviours.

 

 

The follower says they'll let you wear anything you like in a dungeon, and what actually happens when you arrive in one is that they immediately demand to return home, and then instantly slap you in chains without even letting you agree to their demand. That doesn't feel "unforgiving" ... it feels ... broken mainly ... like it's a bug. Is this also by design? To keep the player from complacency?

 

Unlike some other recent posters, I can't retroactively convince myself that slavery was working great and perfectly as intended. The sketchy behaviour didn't make me nervous. After the first few buggy events, I was fully anticipating them. "What random kind of location does the follower think I'm in now? What random device will they equip that I have no way to ever make them remove because I can't even talk to them?" And it was a minor problem in a situation where there was one bug after another, and some much worse than the mis-assignment of cell type, followed by a totally unexpected punishment with no warning. As things went, that was pretty minor, but certainly annoying because it was so obviously avoidable if the follower communicated like a rational entity, instead of acting like a DCL trap. But DCL traps are fair, because they don't promise one behaviour then deliver a different one that is not fun. (And if the experience is fun will forgive just about anything, even a game that breaks its unwritten pact with the player).

 

The bit where the follower lost their ability to display any DF dialogs, and could never regain it, even after mod reset, unfollow, refollower, etc, etc was probably the worst. This rendered my game roadkill. In that situation I have to go back about a dozen saves and discard several hours of play - with possible threat of recurrence, or uninstall DF completely.

 

I'm guessing nobody else has had this - yet - but I'm also very suspicious that it is reproducible, and is an indirect result of enslavement via Simple Slavery. I never had any problems like that, until SS got in the mix, and the restoration of Willpower to 10 makes me think that SS enslavement isn't quite handling DF internal state as cleanly as it should.

 

The half-dozen failures of SS to actually start an auction weren't great, or the bit where my follower showed up while I was in the auction house, acting like they were still my follower.

 

As things stand, I have zero trust of Simple Slavery as a gateway into DF.

 

With so many issues, I'm loathe to put any trust in this particular game/save-sequence again unless I remove both DF and SS, so I'll probably discard it completely and write the entire game off to play-testing. It would be a shame if the results of that were ignored.

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, retrev said:

Of course, just having moderate amount of gold isn't problem, but in existing setting of this mode(tweaking range of given gold) creates lots of amount of gold which is moderate.

for example, I assume that giving less than 100 gold make PC whore out and more than 4000 gold make worry about higher interest, in 100<x<4000 range, gold control function can be ignored because it's meaningless and has almost no problems.

 

So, I want to suggest that making 'distribution' setting of given gold in gold control mode, which select how much given gold can be dispersed in given range. for example, when that value is higher, given gold is almost extreme value. with lower value, amount of given gold will be moderate value.

 

2)

 

This mod is basically enslavement mod, and most important part of this mod will be deal(selling freedom), but I found that is quite linear because there is no change(just my thought although), So I want to suggest:

 

(1) How about Randomizing price of deal? Some day, 'Slut deal' is 1300 gold and removes 1000 debt, In another day, It costs 600 gold and removes 500 debt. Of course reject penalty can be applied. How about allowing PC to negotiate price such as "remove more debt!!!" or "that's too high"? but it should be limited to prevent removing its randomless.

 

Randomizing deal price is already possibly via Chaos Mode, pretty much exactly as you ask for.

 

As for gold control mode, while there certainly are many values you could set that don't work, the default values of 100 - 500 do work pretty well. Let's say the average you get is 350, but in practice any follower knock downs, and other events will reduce this. It's quite easy to get it below 100, even if you have a higher allowance in theory, and I saw zero a lot (though that may actually have been a bug).

 

If you think that 500 is too much, set it to 300, and the minimum to 0.

 

Unlike debt-per-day, which is practically impossible to balance without feeling that you're cheating yourself into slavery on purpose, gold control just needs to pivot around 100 with reasonably frequency. Less than 100 and you've got a problem, more than 100 and you're fine. As its a fixed target, it's easy to set.

 

If you use SLS tolls, that creates another expense you have to meet. If you add in Skooma Whore, Milk Addict and MME, then not paying the toll at the gate is very perilous.

[mai_hasegawa]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

feeling that you're cheating yourself into slavery on purpose

Very well put, had the same feeling throughout.

 

What I ended up doing is setting deal buyout (after normal expiration) to zero, circumventing the approaching doom of losing money when follower gets angry.

This way all the debt, or most of it, is fully settled through deals without any money changing hands, and I can experience the content of the mod without feeling like I'm cheating myself just to do it.

 

And I also lower willpower through console to get more content.

 

Definitely not what mod author had in mind, but it works best for me.

[Reesewow]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I don't think you have got what I'm saying, as I don't want it to be forgiving... Difficulty is not my complain, lack of any remaining game is my complaint. I wrote in excruciating detail about what went wrong, and exactly when it went wrong, and how, and why it was not fun, or expected, or plausible as functioning correctly, but it's pretty plain what most people read from it was simply TLDNR followed by a lot of z z Z Z Z, or they skimmed it and took stuff out of context.

I believe Lozeak's point is that Slavery mode as it stands is a failure state, and besides that is one of the oldest and least-adjusted sections of the mod, so it isn't a high priority for him for in-depth fixes or adjustments at this time.  So reports on problems and balance issues with enslavement mode are probably still welcome, but it is not something he plans on addressing any time soon.  I doubt most of the nastier interactions or effects you describe are "working as intended", but what point is there in Lozeak giving a huge response to something he's thinking he will bypass or tear out at some point anyway?

 

It sounds like he'd rather offer alternate options to "enslavement" first, and if down the road he feels like it come back around and make adjustments to the original concept.  It does take over the game pretty badly when triggered, but that is why alternatives like Endless mode have been included, so those that dislike the current version of it can avoid it without simply needing to cheat or reload a save when they hit the trigger point.

 

 

Meta content below re: what I think is a more ideal info-sharing style on forums.  Take it or leave it as you please.

 

Regarding people's responses to your posts - I think possibly you'd have better luck if you boiled your points down for readability.  "Excruciating detail" is actually likely the issue - since the venue here is a feedback/bug report forum, keeping feedback short and clear is quite important.  Most game developers that ask for written feedback make it very clear that the best way to get feedback read is to for it to be clear and concise. 

 

I find when I read some of your longer posts, even when I agree with some points and disagree with others, it can be really hard to follow the thread of exactly what the suggestion is for the mod, and if I do reply I have to grab one line I think best catches the essence of the post and reply to that.  Even without changing your posting style, a TLDR bullet-point section at the end of the major points would be really helpful.  Especially since a large portion of the LL community has English as a second language.  The post I'm replying to for instance touches on:

 

• Front page warning that Slavery mode may be considered a failure state
• Issues with Skyrim's screwy cell labeling and DF's dependency on them
• Request for more warning/grace period on entering a new cell type to give the player a chance to respond
• Issue with slavery system demanding to return to town too often with no feedback
• Mention of a DF dialogue bug requiring a clean save
• Simple Slavery integration issues you had

I don't think it is that people are willfully ignoring your ideas and problems - they are just in a format that I think is probably a lot of work to pull out the major points and either reply to them or implement fixes based on them.  It gets harder when there are 2/3 posts back to back.  I think you have some good ideas for the mod and are obviously pretty passionate about it, just trying to present a way to get those ideas front and center.

[Lozeak]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I don't think you have got what I'm saying, as I don't want it to be forgiving... Difficulty is not my complain, lack of any remaining game is my complaint. I wrote in excruciating detail about what went wrong, and exactly when it went wrong, and how, and why it was not fun, or expected, or plausible as functioning correctly, but it's pretty plain what most people read from it was simply TLDNR followed by a lot of z z Z Z Z, or they skimmed it and took stuff out of context.

 

But fair? What is fair in a single-player game? What did that word mean when I used it with substantial caution and hedging?

 

Well... You know it's not fair when you're screaming obscenities at the screen; when the game lies to you, or promises one behaviour then delivers something entirely different; when you realise you just wasted your entire evening on a broken save; when the unwritten pact the game makes with the player to "be a game" is broken. Dark Souls may be hard, but people hate the bugs, not the game play.

 

 

Lozeak himself said that he didn't want DF to stop you playing Skyrim, but slavery mode does that. Apparently that was by design?! OK. Now we know. Put it on the front page please. I'll just accept that slavery is basically end-of-game and make sure it doesn't happen, it's easy enough to avoid.

 

 

Relying on the vanilla cell types produces some highly unanticipated results. That's putting it diplomatically. It would be a lot of work to make a comprehensive list of alternate "override" cell types - I'm not asking for that. Still, currently the follower behaves as if they are essentially insane, deciding you're in a town when you're in a fort, or in a dungeon when you're in a field. That's not keeping the player on their toes, that's just broken. The reason I care about this is because it's a mechanic that could be used outside of slavery if it worked properly, either by warning the player, or by allowing more time after cell change, and/or by communicating to the player properly what the cell is (left corner debug messages do not cut it).

 

 

The arbitrary behaviour would be "fair" if the follower had a track record of lying about the rules, and we were used to being cheated - or if the follower made a joke about how dumb you were to believe her, after she randomly decided to bind you for no good reason - but nowhere on the front-page did I read a note saying: "Hey, in slavery mode, the follower just talks shit, breaks the rules of the deals, and punishes you at random." As that's how it feels... In the main path of DF the follower does some non-deal stuff with games, but they are temporary interludes, not persistent behaviours.

 

 

The follower says they'll let you wear anything you like in a dungeon, and what actually happens when you arrive in one is that they immediately demand to return home, and then instantly slap you in chains without even letting you agree to their demand. That doesn't feel "unforgiving" ... it feels ... broken mainly ... like it's a bug. Is this also by design? To keep the player from complacency?

 

Unlike some other recent posters, I can't retroactively convince myself that slavery was working great and perfectly as intended. The sketchy behaviour didn't make me nervous. After the first few buggy events, I was fully anticipating them. "What random kind of location does the follower think I'm in now? What random device will they equip that I have no way to ever make them remove because I can't even talk to them?" And it was a minor problem in a situation where there was one bug after another, and some much worse than the mis-assignment of cell type, followed by a totally unexpected punishment with no warning. As things went, that was pretty minor, but certainly annoying because it was so obviously avoidable if the follower communicated like a rational entity, instead of acting like a DCL trap. But DCL traps are fair, because they don't promise one behaviour then deliver a different one that is not fun. (And if the experience is fun will forgive just about anything, even a game that breaks its unwritten pact with the player).

 

The bit where the follower lost their ability to display any DF dialogs, and could never regain it, even after mod reset, unfollow, refollower, etc, etc was probably the worst. This rendered my game roadkill. In that situation I have to go back about a dozen saves and discard several hours of play - with possible threat of recurrence, or uninstall DF completely.

 

I'm guessing nobody else has had this - yet - but I'm also very suspicious that it is reproducible, and is an indirect result of enslavement via Simple Slavery. I never had any problems like that, until SS got in the mix, and the restoration of Willpower to 10 makes me think that SS enslavement isn't quite handling DF internal state as cleanly as it should.

 

The half-dozen failures of SS to actually start an auction weren't great, or the bit where my follower showed up while I was in the auction house, acting like they were still my follower.

 

As things stand, I have zero trust of Simple Slavery as a gateway into DF.

 

With so many issues, I'm loathe to put any trust in this particular game/save-sequence again unless I remove both DF and SS, so I'll probably discard it completely and write the entire game off to play-testing. It would be a shame if the results of that were ignored.

 

Yes, the intent is that you can use this mod while playing Skyrim. Thing is slavery mod has to take freedoms away from the player the enslavement mode is meant to lock a lot of the game away from the player until they get free. I still think you can do a lot in enslavement mode looting and selling to get free.

 

The forcing you to go home is based on the event timer (lengthen it if you want ). I think I set it up to trigger in dungeons so I can see how you just leaving town to be told to go back could suck. ( I may change that).

 

1 hour ago, mai_hasegawa said:

And I also lower willpower through console to get more content.

 

Definitely not what mod author had in mind, but it works best for me.

 

Play the mod how you like, if you have fun that's all that matters :).