Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

At what point in the game does the DB become a 'very powerful entity'?

I guess it might have something to do with tearing the destroyer of worlds to pieces with your voice.

 

But we can play it how we like. The story can be anything as long as you can sustain suspension of disbelief.

[DoctorAlman]

How about adding that the PC gets forced into deals IF the money is controlled by the follower by having the follower simply saying "Accept or I will take 10% of your gold".

I really enjoy playing around with the advanced gold control mechanics.

[DoctorAlman]

1 hour ago, DoctorAlman said:

How about adding that the PC gets forced into deals IF the money is controlled by the follower by having the follower simply saying "Accept or I will take 10% of your gold".

I really enjoy playing around with the advanced gold control mechanics.

these events themselves would only trigger at a certain willpower level

 

everything adjustable

[Lupine00]

There were some promising ideas about "contracts" a few pages back now.

 

Personally, I'm happy enough with the new feature to compel deals if you have too much debt. You can still refuse, but you might get enslaved or otherwise punished.

 

However, the contract concept, where the player has to agree to things being made worse creates a framework that explains how the follower gets such powers of compulsion.

 

Without this, it's always seemed odd that the follower magically overpowers the PC in some unexplained way and forces them to do certain things - become a slave, be sold, get put into devices. When the PC submits by choice, due to an agreement they make, it feels like it makes more sense, but it also has a good feeling of creating your own trap for yourself.

 

The thread on contracts (and the prelude to it, that began with ME vs DF) starts on page 125 of the DF forum.

The contract stuff starts here: 

 

 

[Zaflis]

18 hours ago, jonsnuww said:

How does the dragon born get enslaved and why can't the dragon born free herself?

Seriously the dragon born is a very powerful entity and the very first sentence the followers says to you is "I hope you don't cheat me like other adventurers" so it does really seem odd...

I haven't been starting Skyrim as dragonborn for longer while. Using Alternate Start mod you can roleplay into lots of different stories. Maybe you start as an innworker, or were a hunter camping in the woods. Maybe you are an escaped slave... Lots of choices, especially if you also add the "Content Consumers" starts. I don't even visit Helgen in many of the saves. Sometimes maybe just to play until Lydia but not really further. Do i use shouts in combat? Actual never.

 

3 hours ago, DoctorAlman said:

How about adding that the PC gets forced into deals IF the money is controlled by the follower by having the follower simply saying "Accept or I will take 10% of your gold".

I really enjoy playing around with the advanced gold control mechanics.

Player doesn't have to be forced into deals. Firstly the "10% of your gold" doesn't work when part of your gold is already on the follower as credit. You can accept or she will just add (the punishment value of) debt.

 

I was playing with gold control yesterday and there was a point where follower was settling me down to 30g. I thought that's impossible even if i'm in debt. She could have just added more debt to reach the minimum 200g set in MCM. With that low gold you can't even buy a room for follower to sleep.

 

Then i already had ownership deal and then i got other deal that wanted me to wear collar. Well, you already forced me to wear one earlier so yeah, sure give me free gold ?  

 

Speaking of that, maybe if multiple deals only overlap at stage one, make it instantly advance to next step(s) (up to max stage) until there's something new? Or redesign them in a way there are no same items in deals. Branched deals where 1 deal can open several more stage 2 deals.

[Lupine00]

21 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

I was playing with gold control yesterday and there was a point where follower was settling me down to 30g. I thought that's impossible even if i'm in debt. She could have just added more debt to reach the minimum 200g set in MCM. With that low gold you can't even buy a room for follower to sleep.

The follower can lock you down to zero gold, even when you have a minimum of 200 set.

This is by design.

 

It's supposed to create situations where you have to use solicitation to earn money inside the inn, so you can pay the innkeeper for a room without making a cell change.

 

If you don't have a solicitation-capable mod, you're a bit stuck, because DF doesn't provide a built-in mechanism. I keep Radiant Prostitution in my LO for this eventuality. I'm finding in 2.X that you tend to end up with more deals and less gold control though.

 

You can wriggle your way around it by keeping enough booze to sell to the innkeeper to get sufficient cash to pay for a room, even if you start with 0 gold.

 

That's fairly inconvenient though, and rather un-immersive, so I don't really recommend it, just a point that there are various "cheats" you can use in gold control if you feel that gold control doesn't work the way you feel it should.

 

There's also a lockout option, so once you hit zero gold, you're pinned at 0, and the follower won't refill... If you like things even more difficult.

[Lozeak]

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If you don't have a solicitation-capable mod, you're a bit stuck, because DF doesn't provide a built-in mechanism. I keep Radiant Prostitution in my LO for this eventuality. I'm finding in 2.X that you tend to end up with more deals and less gold control though.

 

You can sleep rough or in a dungeon as well which is free which again could tie into other mods but DF on its own you can find somewhere to sleep if you're stuck at 0 gold.

 

======

 

Contract stuff, yes good idea but a few niggles make me not want to add it. (I may in some way in the future)

 

So if it's some forced dialogue tree you get when you have a follower 2 things that put me off it.

 

1. Spamming the same dialogue scene every time you get a new follower would get a little annoying fast and just me spam to click through more than fun (Fixable with MCM though)

 

2. What if the player says no, you get a bounty/follower just leaves/I have to build some extra content that you'll only see when you click no just so I can force the player to click yes. It's just clunky gameplay.

 

 

The best way of adding rather than you agreeing to you just get a contract added to your inventory when your follower introduces themselves explaining that failure to pay may lead to the follower taking your freedom or selling you as a slave to recoup any losses ect. ( I may do this )

 

At least with that, you get some immersion without having to deal with some dialogue tree and I won't have to deal with having to build content that just doesn't really add to the mod.

[Darkwing241]

8 hours ago, Lozeak said:

 

You can sleep rough or in a dungeon as well which is free which again could tie into other mods but DF on its own you can find somewhere to sleep if you're stuck at 0 gold.

 

======

 

Contract stuff, yes good idea but a few niggles make me not want to add it. (I may in some way in the future)

 

So if it's some forced dialogue tree you get when you have a follower 2 things that put me off it.

 

1. Spamming the same dialogue scene every time you get a new follower would get a little annoying fast and just me spam to click through more than fun (Fixable with MCM though)

 

2. What if the player says no, you get a bounty/follower just leaves/I have to build some extra content that you'll only see when you click no just so I can force the player to click yes. It's just clunky gameplay.

 

 

 The best way of adding rather than you agreeing to you just get a contract added to your inventory when your follower introduces themselves explaining that failure to pay may lead to the follower taking your freedom or selling you as a slave to recoup any losses ect. ( I may do this )

 

At least with that, you get some immersion without having to deal with some dialogue tree and I won't have to deal with having to build content that just doesn't really add to the mod.

So when I made that post about contracts it mostly was stemming from a conversation about the issues  communicating information to the player.  An in game 'book' item would be a great place to make a list of deals and other information. The text in the book just changes to match your situation, listing deals and such.   All it really needs to be is a way to cut down on dialog menus and it would be a good thing.  Some good writing would also be an immersive way to reflect the current power dynamic between you and your follower.

 

I don't think the contract needs to actually "do" anything at all to be a worthy addition.  I think all of the idea's about murdering your way out of contracts, or being able to just walk away kind of go against the base assumptions of the mod.  

 

As far as dialogue needed to introduce the contract you could probably go with as little as nothing. I'd probably go with something simple like one like after you initially hire the follower. 

 

"Here's my contract"

 

No need for any further dialogue.  Maybe add a few 'reminder' lines when key relationship changes happen, gold control, slavery ect.

[Lupine00]

There's something about the Lozeak posts that means I can't select them to quote  

Everyone else's posts work normally. Strange.

 

I was aware of the "sleep rough" option, but that's not actually a viable option in many cases. When your follower is in a bad mood, you might not be able to get to a dungeon to fix their mood. I have my game set up so that dungeon sleeping is actually the safest option. Other places have a good chance of sleep rape and nasty consequences.

 

I think if you read through the contracts thread from start to finish, you'll find that most of the issues raised are addressed.

 

 

Personally, I have zero interest in a letter, or book, or other concrete item. If it doesn't drive an actual choice or mechanic, it's just something to go wrong that has zero benefit.

 

 

As for the flip-side of saying "No", if the result is you go to PoP, or DCL Dragonar, or Raven Beak, then it's not just "a bounty".

And then there's the issue of how many times a player will actually say no. They might not take that option very often, but they still might take it sometimes.

 

Being repetitive is hardly a problem, when the existing dialog is extremely predictable unless you trigger a special scene.

On one odd occasion, I got the Pony Game three times in a row. That was repetitive. Also possibly a bug.

 

 

Maybe contracts are not "the thing" for DF, but there were some elements in there that would be uniform improvements without drawback.

 

In one of the earlier posts, I spoke of typical collar coercion mechanic. I backed away from that idea, but it also had its good points.

 

If some of these different kinds of things happened sometimes, then they'd be interesting.

More content is more novelty. 

If it was always ... that would be boring. And never ... well that means that other things have to be repeated instead.

The Jarl game was clearly a huge effort and enormously popular, but it's not something you want to repeat often, as a player.

Once you've done Jarl game once, you can probably go a good while before seeing it again.

Was it the best way to get a return on dev effort? Maybe not, but it looks like somebody enjoyed making it  

[user9120975435]

On 5/5/2019 at 4:36 AM, HexBolt8 said:

Lozeak already answered this very well just above.  I just wanted to add that you don't have to be powerful.  If you've never played a non-powerful character in Skyrim, you've missed out on a lot of fun.  It's even better when you intentionally create a weak character, perhaps one that needs a follower just to survive.  And with the Skyrim Unbound mod, you can play as a non-Dragonborn, and even prevent yourself from learning shouts.  Try it.  Be a lowly adventurer just trying to get by.  It's a whole new challenge.  A lot of the LoversLab mods make more sense that way. 

 

Unbound is one of the best mods and I always tend to create weak characters, plus a heap of mods that make it harder. For example, playing Defeat skill loss my char is still at level 1 even after 35 hours of playing, plus scripts that slow down skill progression.

 

After 8 years of playing this game the only way to still keep it interesting is to make it much harder and slower.

 

On 5/5/2019 at 5:53 AM, Lupine00 said:

Latest DF explicitly attempts to support EFF and AFT.

 

In what specific ways do they improve the DF experience aka is there any point installing them if I don't want more than one follower?

 

On 5/5/2019 at 4:07 AM, Lozeak said:

I think one verison of the quest is bugged I need to fix it. I forgot about it, I'll look into it soon.

 

I also have a bug report:

when I have the blindfold bear deal and follower tricks me and equips a strait-jacket on my char, if I manage to get out of the jacket I not only lose the dialog tree option to talk about deals, but when my follower makes a comment about the jacket being enchanted to re-equip when she says "slut" nothing happens. The jacket doesn't requip and my follower then just keeps spamming that comment.

 

On 5/5/2019 at 3:14 PM, Lupine00 said:

However, the contract concept, where the player has to agree to things being made worse creates a framework that explains how the follower gets such powers of compulsion.

 

Personally, I find the most interesting (and hottest) stuff when the player him/herself voluntarily agrees into increasingly worse situation in hopes of making it alright in the end, like the cursed collar in DCL or the blackmail/Kovacs mod in Oblivion - nobody is forcing the Hero to debase herself for some 3 unknown peasant girls, especially when the humiliations get worse and worse.

 

 

 

I really wish mods that humiliate player character would actually have a wider effect on playthrough than just occasional comments, while NPCs treat them as they did before. Maybe SL mods that feature some kind of humiliation effect (instead of just falling back on nerfing speech/trade skill) would be integrated into Sexlab Fame framework, which itself would be reworked to be a plugin for Relationship dialog overhaul - the mod where an NPC's opinion of you actually has effect (traders won't trade, you get run out of cities, etc.). Or even more.

 

Skooma Whore Addicted has this mechanic where guards will throw the junkie out of the city, but sadly no other mod does it. Other consequences could be whipping, imprisonment, being locked in a pillory, slavetats that would actually affect NPC behaviour towards you, doing too many SLUT Redux runs would inspire vicious rumors about the char and horses that would again see her being target and so on. Possibilites are almost endless.

 

Imagine coming into Whiterun 2 weeks after your follower forced you into a petsuit in Falkreath and you went through that scenario with the Jarl, and rumors of your deeds there had finally reached Whiterun through Fame network. You enter the city, want to visit Bannered Mare, but find it locked in middle of day or when you enter Hulda tells you you're not welcome due to your immoral deeds and then you get transported out and the tavern is locked. Where you go you are met with abuse from inhabitants for your immoral deeds, some even whip you (too bad there is no throwing mechanic in game cause they could even throw stones at you). Even Belethor, who is not the paragon of virtue, would be forced to turn you away in the interest of still being able to run a business in that town. Maybe you would get locked in pillory or some really angry folks would force you to do it with local dogs to demean you or they would grab you and apply even more demeaning tattoos on you. At some point the guards would arrive and arrest you and throw you out of the city and the doors would be locked (and fast-travel disabled) until the rumors would die down (which IIRC is already included in Fame framework).

 

There are some truly amazing mods on this site, but sadly the most actual effect our bad deeds have is to have to pay more and get less for merchandise.

 

17 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

No need for any further dialogue.  Maybe add a few 'reminder' lines when key relationship changes happen, gold control, slavery ect.

 

I find this idea good. Personally I'd also keep a written agreement with my follower in this case what exactly the terms are, what the obligations, limits and punishments; so that the follower couldn't just change their mind one day and sell me into slavery for getting drunk or something.

 

9 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

The Jarl game was clearly a huge effort and enormously popular, but it's not something you want to repeat often, as a player.

Once you've done Jarl game once, you can probably go a good while before seeing it again.

 

Are you talking about the part where the follower equips a petsuit on you? I forget, do we have to be the follower's slave or a certain deal has to be made? Can it also be just a high level of debt?

[kingdave19]

Hey guys, are there any known incompatibilities for this mod? i get the "don't cheat on me" dialogue after some time but when is talk to my follower there is no [click me!] option. did anyone run into this problem before? would be glad for any help.

[Zaflis]

48 minutes ago, kingdave19 said:

Hey guys, are there any known incompatibilities for this mod? i get the "don't cheat on me" dialogue after some time but when is talk to my follower there is no [click me!] option. did anyone run into this problem before? would be glad for any help.

Solution was to downgrade or uninstall Slavetats. You have 2.02b of this mod though?

[kingdave19]

2 hours ago, Zaflis said:

Solution was to downgrade or uninstall Slavetats. You have 2.02b of this mod though?

 

2 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

There were a few but theyve all been "fixed" with 2.02b

SlaveTats shouldnt be causing any issues anymore

 

 

Thx for the replies. Yes, i have 2.02b and i tried both upgrading and downgrading slavetats. i also have a clean safe and still i dont get any dialogue options after the "don't cheat on me" sentence -.-

[Darkwing241]

5 hours ago, user9120975435 said:

There are some truly amazing mods on this site, but sadly the most actual effect our bad deeds have is to have to pay more and get less for merchandise.

I think most of these mods are more about the journey than the destination.

 

It's easier to show power/submissions/trickery/coercion before full on enslavement.  At that point you are still making choices.

 

If you want a mod that is full world after effects of enslavement, where everyone knows you are a slave, try slaverun.  The scope of that mod is massive.  It's really not all that fun though as you aren't really playing skyrim anymore, or really playing a game at all.  You might as well just watch a video.

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

If you want a mod that is full world after effects of enslavement, where everyone knows you are a slave, try slaverun.  The scope of that mod is massive.  It's really not all that fun though as you aren't really playing skyrim anymore, or really playing a game at all.  You might as well just watch a video.

The newer Slaverun with the Colliseum building and fighting is not just a video, and to be fair, it never was, though there was a ridiculous number of long, unavoidable sex scenes, there were also repetitive and predictable run-around quests  

 

There's more now. It's still flawed in many respects, but also impressive in others. It's not an experience you'll forget...

[Lupine00]

14 hours ago, user9120975435 said:

In what specific ways do they improve the DF experience aka is there any point installing them if I don't want more than one follower?

EFF has a wheel menu that is convenient, even with one follower, but maybe too convenient...

 

Other than that, the point of follower-framework mods is really having more than one follower.

[Lupine00]

14 hours ago, user9120975435 said:

Are you talking about the part where the follower equips a petsuit on you? I forget, do we have to be the follower's slave or a certain deal has to be made? Can it also be just a high level of debt?

Yes. That is what I was referring to.

 

You have to be over half enslavement debt, wearing a collar, and have a certain minimum number of deals. Six, possibly?

Also you mustn't wear anything that blocks application of the petsuit.

 

[Lupine00]

15 hours ago, user9120975435 said:

Imagine coming into Whiterun 2 weeks after your follower forced you into a petsuit in Falkreath and you went through that scenario with the Jarl, and rumors of your deeds there had finally reached Whiterun through Fame network. You enter the city, want to visit Bannered Mare, but find it locked in middle of day or when you enter Hulda tells you you're not welcome due to your immoral deeds and then you get transported out and the tavern is locked.

Really? Your immoral deeds?

 

I must have missed something, but you want to be shunned and punished for being attacked by a gang of guards, mass raped and abused?

A situation that was basically unavoidable, because you set it up that way.

 

I would imagine that if you set the bounty high enough, you could get yourself sent to PoP or Dragonar. That would "teach you how to behave".

 

Being locked out of places seems to conflict with Lozeak's general plan of not stopping you playing Skyrim.

 

If you want to stop playing Skyrim, Slaverun Reloaded really may be the answer for you. What you want is largely incompatible with the ethos of DF.

 

You only really address half the problem. How do you recover your game after you're locked out of all the cities? What are you supposed to do?

If you have an idea that is easily implemented, or irresistibly good, I'm eager to hear it.

 

I can't think of any way to make that sort of game work without adding a lot of new content.

 

The existing result, of ending up in kinky prison seems to work pretty well. You are punished for your crime (being raped and enslaved) and can move on with your game.

 

If you don't have Sexlab Adventures and Bondage Furniture World, then maybe you should install both.

[user9120975435]

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Really? Your immoral deeds?

I must have missed something, but you want to be shunned and punished for being attacked by a gang of guards, mass raped and abused?

 

Calm down, I was just giving specific example of the petsuit ffs. Since when do most people want to know the details and the truth before judging someone??? I'm sure folks were wondering "what if she was forced to do it or had some deeper reason?" while they were tarring some poor woman or burning a witch at the stake or cheering while the headman was pulling the entrails out of some poor guy in the middle of the town square while the guy was still alive. /sarcasm

 

Most people are judgemental assholes, they always have been and they always will be. They don't care about the motivations, they only care about the end result from their small-minded perspective that usually lacks most data and especially the most important data. And they LOVE to gossip and talk shit about some person, especially if it's a person they know.

 

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I would imagine that if you set the bounty high enough, you could get yourself sent to PoP or Dragonar. That would "teach you how to behave".

 

No matter the political-correctness present in this game , do you really think that even in a society from somewhere in the 14th century that knows magic and still has SLAVERY most rural folks would look kindly upon a woman selling her body in a tavern, or walking around wearing practically nothing while having provocative tattoos plastered all over her well-displayed body, or having been known to engage in sex with animals (even if seen by some woodcutter as she was defeated by a pack of wolves and he didn't do anything to help) or if she was having sex indiscriminately of race (yeah, Nords would be thrilled to host a woman who just had a voluntary gang-bang with a squad of Thalmor lol - and if it wasn't voluntary, why was she stupid enough to ATTACK them in the first place when she couldn't win...)?

 

Would they really think nothing of a loose woman with a pack of kids, each kid from a different father? No, they would definitely be unhappy with her and they would make her feel it.

 

Hell, European village societies ACTIVELY worked to correct "deviant" behaviour/events: if some girl got pregnant out of wedlock they would just marry her off to save her from shame of unwed mother and to spare the kids from being illegitimate, which was a pretty grim fate. Didn't matter if the new husband was the actual father of the kid, or just some hapless sap who got caught in the crossfire and was sentenced to toiling to support a woman he didn't love and raise kid that wasn't his own. All for the "good" of the society. Girls of course knew that and sometimes (other times they themselves were victims of playboys) used this (meaning, they seduced him and got pregnant) to catch a guy that they liked, especially if there was a strong possibility he would leave (get married to someone else or join the landlord's military forces in the capacity that a peasant could or escape to a town to be free or...).

 

For every action there is a reaction.

 

As it is now, we players can do anything we want in this game, not even within reason anymore, and there is no consequence, no pushback from the dumb AI population. Hell, you can start having sex with the dragon in the middle of a town just a minute after it burned 4 townpeople to death and ate 2 more and nobody will even think something's wrong, they will just disperse and go on their merry way as if the horror of the attack hadn't happened. It gets a little boring, to be honest. Wouldn't it be much more interesting if we could do what we want, but would have to work around limitations?

 

Sexlab Adventures is already working in this regard with crimes for nudity, sex, being armed and armored, etc. You got raped by a gang of bandits? Well, you should've been more careful then/What were you doing there to begin with? - Sexlab Survival with tolls and followers required to exit cities touches upon this. You consistently screw up deliveries in SLUTS? Maybe if we spread ugly rumors about you you will start taking your job seriously and pay more attention to your cargo so you don't lose it. And so on.

 

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Being locked out of places seems to conflict with Lozeak's general plan of not stopping you playing Skyrim.

 

I was talking about Sexlab mods in general, not just DF.

 

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If you want to stop playing Skyrim, Slaverun Reloaded really may be the answer for you. What you want is largely incompatible with the ethos of DF.

 

I have and it gets really repetitive really fast. Plus those reeeeeeeeeeeeally boring sexual scenes, especially at beginning. Just like Whiterun Brothel Redux (WBR).... great mod, but when you spend 1 hour or more just having repetitive sex with a single character to satisfy her quota so you can go to the next character to start it all over again, it makes me wanna bash my head against the desk. Or put my fist through the screen.

 

Plus, Slaverun (as well as WBR) is extremely script-heavy.

 

I would disagree on that last. Exactly the point I'm trying to make that I don't want to stop playing Skyrim, I just want it to be a more immersive, life-like experience.

 

Best example: you kill a bandit and his buddies are standing around his body for a while, looking around before going back to doing what they were doing. Yeah, totally not a hidden assassin somewhere in the shadows. Fuck the dead body of their friend with an arrow sticking out of an eye, lying next to their feet, it's like it doesn't exist. They are ignoring events that are happening around them. Bethesda tried doing something about this with Radiance, but they went only halfway: the NPCs comment on PC's action, but those actions don't have any real effect on the PC or the relationship between NPC and PC.

 

The author of Realistic Dialog Overhaul saw exactly this problem and decided to do something about it, now NPCs interact (or refuse to) more intelligently with the PC. Sexlab authors could do something like this too and some of them have already taken the first steps.

 

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You only really address half the problem. How do you recover your game after you're locked out of all the cities? What are you supposed to do?

If you have an idea that is easily implemented, or irresistibly good, I'm eager to hear it.

 

Rumors DECAY. After a day or a week they forget and the doors get unlocked and it's back to business. It was specifically written in my post... In other words, people forget naughty deeds, especially if someone did something equally or more stupid in the meantime.

 

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I can't think of any way to make that sort of game work without adding a lot of new content.

 

Not really. Skooma Whore (or it's Addicted DLC) already has the mechanic where guards will throw you out of the city if you are too addicted to skooma. This can easily be modified for everything else.

 

All it would take would be for framework to be made (if Sexual Fame isn't good enough as it is) so it detects mods and events. At worst, mod authors of mods that affect player reputation would just need to start cooperating in a small, tiny way of making their mods compatible with this framework. Again, some mods are already compatible with Fame, for example Slaverun.

 

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The existing result, of ending up in kinky prison seems to work pretty well. You are punished for your crime (being raped and enslaved) and can move on with your game.

 

Personally I really dislike mods where I'm forced to stay in one place for an extended period of time so I avoid prison mods or slavery mods like SD+. That's why I like DF, even with all the slavery stuff you can still move freely around, just with limitations. And the biggest fun is finding ways around these limitations to still play the game and have fun.

[Harry Smackmeat]

I'm always trying to find a way to like prison overhaul enough to go through the immersive medieval punishment sim that eventually dumps me into SS, which would lead to this.

I don't think they'd mesh with Sexlab Adventures wherein I rack up the bounties (what I'm not going to cave a guard's skull in, that's dumb lol).

I mean there I'd be, naked bent over a pillory, erect nip nips forming icicles for 30 minutes, and I end up with another 500 gold bounty for being bent over in a pillory naked getting a broom handle rammed up my no no zone.

 

I like the idea of prison overhaul selling me off tho.  Look at me, now I'm the follower. XD

[donttouchmethere]

On 5/6/2019 at 9:00 PM, user9120975435 said:

Imagine coming into Whiterun 2 weeks after your follower forced you into a petsuit in Falkreath and you went through that scenario with the Jarl, and rumors of your deeds there had finally reached Whiterun through Fame network.

I simulate that a little with SLSF + SRR comments (install only comments) + DEC

SRR comments relay on your SLSF fame and in DEC your vulnerability increases.

 

Yes more mods that would use SLSF for NPC actions would be great, but if you want effects from SLSF right now thats the way to go =D

[Lupine00]

13 hours ago, user9120975435 said:

As it is now, we players can do anything we want in this game, not even within reason anymore, and there is no consequence, no pushback from the dumb AI population. Hell, you can start having sex with the dragon in the middle of a town just a minute after it burned 4 townpeople to death and ate 2 more and nobody will even think something's wrong, they will just disperse and go on their merry way as if the horror of the attack hadn't happened. It gets a little boring, to be honest. Wouldn't it be much more interesting if we could do what we want, but would have to work around limitations?

Yes. No. Yes... I can't decide.

 

Really...

 

A lot of people play a game exactly so they can do as they like, and get away with it. That is what they want from a game, and why they like Skyrim.

 

I play games where things are hard, usually, very hard. I don't feel a lack of consequences in my games, generally - but of course I know how bad the AI is at recognising your actions. Probably we have more in common with each other than with the average LL Skyrim player, if such a person exists, and yet clearly we have many points of difference.

 

The lack of recognition of actions bothers me, but it's so pervasive, you have to accept a certain amount of it. To fix it would be an enormous effort. You talk about reputation, or reputation transmission and decay, and reputation consequences like they are implemented in a heartbeat. I've done ... a bit here and there ... to actually promote the idea of specific mod mechanics that could improve the situation, and by promote, I mean at a concrete code level, not just talking. I intend to do more, but the interest - the buy-in -  amongst other modders is limited.

 

But the first thing is that the character isn't choosing to do most of these "bad things", they are being done to her, and so she isn't doing as she likes, even if the player is - because the player set up the inescapable scenario that doomed her in the first place.

 

So you're (to some extent) wanting the PC to be punished for meta-actions the player took that made her fate inevitable. In that case, the punishments are also inevitable player-determined events. Not much is emergent or surprising in such a world.

 

Your tirade about believability in pre-industrial cultures has no place in Skyrim, which is broken anachronistic nonsense even in its Beth incarnation, and is just pure ludicrous when you put in all the stuff that LL players like. You can argue about things being non-immersive, and that's fine, but the moment somebody brings up history with regard to Skyrim, I start trying to tune out the noise.

 

History is history, Skyrim is Skyrim, and my game is my game - and yours is yours. Your complaints about guards who ignore a dragon raping you in the town square are very valid, because there is no universe where that is immersive, unless maybe the guards were buddies with the dragon to start with, but don't drag history or politics into it, because we threw any kind of logic out when we walked into a world the size of a postage stamp, populated by more dragons than sheep, and more abandoned crypts than towns, and then made the guards say things about women that only make sense (or the special grade of nonsense) in the context of a modern society.

 

On the forums, you'll find many times and places where I suggested it was key that the game recognise the PC's actions. Stuff that just happens to the PC should be recognised too, but it's less of a priority.

 

Sure, I'd love it if the NPCs said stuff like, "Stupid woman. You shouldn't have run off to fight bandits if you couldn't beat them." or "Wench, I've seen you take every cock in this town, it's only fair that you take mine."

 

That's why I like Sexlab Advance, because you get an interaction with NPCs that isn't simply vendor or rapist.

 

But that doesn't mean I think it would help my game if I was kicked out of the town so I couldn't have any dialogues. There are few enough reasons to go to town to begin with.

 

If you have a DF, and the DF drags you into town, how is it going to interact with an ejection mechanic? Now you can't advance DF slavery because you can't go into a town to trigger the scenes? How is a slave responsible for anything, if she's property? Don't tell me the Jarl cares that what you did is skanky? He'll rape you himself while you wear that petsuit and bark for him - and never once suggest it's bad - even if he does discuss buying you so he can have more sex.

 

If game towns are full of naked slaves having sex, why would the PC-slave be singled out for special punishment?

You make the world you want, and tune the rules to suit yourself. But if you're going to get angry about consequences maybe just mod them yourself?

 

I also have RDO, SW Addicted, and SL Survival, and all the other mods you mention, and many others. Most of those mods only do anything useful if you can go to town. Being banned just means I can't pay my follower and I'll get enslaved, which is ... a bit predictable ... and particularly silly when the DF set up the rapes in the first place.

 

NPCs in sex mods just don't talk like they're in a situation where if you have sex with them it's the end of your virtue. In fact they tend to presume you don't start with any virtue. There's simply no part of the social structure that you talk about genuinely present in the game that is sexy Skyrim. Most LL mods seem to begin with a built-in assumption that you're the lowest kind of whore and head downhill from there.

 

In a situation where rape has any sort of meaningful consequence, or where death is ... you know ... a thing people worry about ... the rapist knows full well how much damage he's doing, and that sort of thing just isn't present either. You can't have one side of the balance without the other. In practice, the extent of the dialogue changes you want, and how much trouble they'd cause for vanilla quests is much more than you seem to credit. Rapists don't rape because they are turned on, they rape to destroy women and feel powerful. But that's not the narrative of rape in Skyrim mods at all. Should we change all those mods to be more realistic? Where would we stop that process? Instead of being a means to an end, it becomes an unreachable end in itself.

 

But speaking of RDO, I never found that mod did anything I cared for. Dropped it recently due to DF and didn't even notice the difference.

 

 

There are mechanics we can make, that have a certain kind of genre vibe, and that have gameplay that is fun, and then there are mechanics that are not only hard to make, but would probably be boring and frustrating.

 

The crux of this problem is that what is boring and frustrating for player X is fun for player Y.

[legraf]

7 hours ago, donttouchmethere said:

I simulate that a little with SLSF + SRR comments (install only comments) + DEC

SRR comments relay on your SLSF fame and in DEC your vulnerability increases.

Ermm.... what's SRR?

[donttouchmethere]

9 minutes ago, legraf said:

Ermm.... what's SRR?

Sorry, not even sure if SRR is the official short form for:

SlaveRun Reloaded

 

[HexBolt8]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

That's why I like Sexlab Advance, because you get an interaction with NPCs that isn't simply vendor or rapist.

What is Sexlab Advance?  Google search didn't find it.