Four-Play WIP Discussion (was SexTec)

Chosen Clue · May 4, 2017

I'm happy that a working framework exists at all. Awesome and a big thanks so far for working on it.

My experience:

Sex 'Em Up needs better targeting/range (fails to catch sometimes) , positioning and animation control like Leito's

SEU relies on Four Play's positioning, so it's really not SEU misaligning things, it's just the nature of 4P being quite early in development.

Now, for the targeting/range thing, you need to be close because there is no F4SE function for getting the reference that the player's crosshair is targeted at, so I have to use a radius scan instead. Hacky way that I solved it, but it's the only reliable way I've found thus far.

frankoceanswag · May 4, 2017

I've found new reasons to play fo4! Been following the labs for a while now, too. Thanks everyone that worked on this.

*DocClox* · May 4, 2017

Sorry I've been a bit quiet lately. Had a much needed lazy weekend, and then I've been struggling to get my development setup working with MO2. I thought I had it last night, but the CK still won't launch through MO. The process starts, but I never see a window.

At this rate, I may end up saying "sod it" and using Wrye Bash to control which mods are installed.

In other news, I've been persuaded that some sort of integrated arousal system would be a good thing (lots of people have been asking for this) so I'll probably take a crack at it before too much longer.

I mentioned a crash earlier when using a gun from Leito. If the gun has a gyro lens or automatic fire, it will crash. So that's what happened.

Yeah ... autofire probably tries to start a new scene with each actor. I do lock actors out from being in more than one scene at a time, but I probably don't do it soon enough for that particular case.

I'm starting to think the secret of writing a robust mod is to make sure you do everything first.

Awesome work DocClox. It's exciting to take a peek at what the future holds

Thanks. One of these days I'll finish that loader system...

I'm happy that a working framework exists at all. Awesome and a big thanks so far for working on it.

My experience:

All animations need an awful lot of time to prepare (10-20sec)

There is no realignment once a wandering character kicks the player out of position

To my surprise the animations worked with Supermutants (a bit misaligned) and Synths, just the nude clothing doesn't match

Animations shouldn't take that long. How long does it take if you use a test cell terminal?

Also, supermutants is worrying since it suggests (again) that my race filters still aren't working. Which version are you using?

My 1st wishes with priorities:

A reliable (100% safe) target finding and activation method other than gunning (catching all animatable targets)

A fast animation switch (< 5 sec)

Animation control based on hotkeys (not necessary if forced/aggressive)

Nude bodies switching based on race (Human, Ghoul, Synth Type, Supermutant)

Finding them isn't my department hotkeys and nudiesuits are planned

Now, for the targeting/range thing, you need to be close because there is no F4SE function for getting the reference that the player's crosshair is targeted at, so I have to use a radius scan instead. Hacky way that I solved it, but it's the only reliable way I've found thus far.

I did wonder about triggering a projectile spell with the player as caster and using whatever the projectile hit to determine what was in the x-hairs. Never got a chance to try it out though.

I've found new reasons to play fo4! Been following the labs for a while now, too. Thanks everyone that worked on this.

You're welcome

Chosen Clue · May 4, 2017

Now, for the targeting/range thing, you need to be close because there is no F4SE function for getting the reference that the player's crosshair is targeted at, so I have to use a radius scan instead. Hacky way that I solved it, but it's the only reliable way I've found thus far.

I did wonder about triggering a projectile spell with the player as caster and using whatever the projectile hit to determine what was in the x-hairs. Never got a chance to try it out though.

I did have spellcasting in the first version of Sex Em Up, but it was unreliable, as it would hit the player before hitting an NPC, which is weird.

And it wouldn't work very well in 3rd person, as the spell would, be casted from the head bone and would not hit the crosshair target.

*DocClox* · May 4, 2017

OK. That's a trick I don't need to try then

Zereal · May 4, 2017

Sorry I've been a bit quiet lately ...

I'm happy that a working framework exists at all. Awesome and a big thanks so far for working on it.

My experience:

All animations need an awful lot of time to prepare (10-20sec)

There is no realignment once a wandering character kicks the player out of position

To my surprise the animations worked with Supermutants (a bit misaligned) and Synths, just the nude clothing doesn't match

Animations shouldn't take that long. How long does it take if you use a test cell terminal?

Also, supermutants is worrying since it suggests (again) that my race filters still aren't working. Which version are you using?

My 1st wishes with priorities:

A reliable (100% safe) target finding and activation method other than gunning (catching all animatable targets)

A fast animation switch (< 5 sec)

Animation control based on hotkeys (not necessary if forced/aggressive)

Nude bodies switching based on race (Human, Ghoul, Synth Type, Supermutant)

Finding them isn't my department hotkeys and nudiesuits are planned

Never used test cell terminals, but I tried the one with "coc zUnusedSubwayTerminalShowcase" and got about 3 secs at opening the terminal. Hope you didn't mean something else. My system itself has strong CPU and RAM, but weak GPU power and the game isn't using SSD space.

You don't have to worry about your race filters as I started to switch to Leito's gunning and tested Supermutants and Synths with that method. Other than having to shoot my characters the method gave me best targeting, postitioning possibilities and control over the animations used. I never got a find target with Supermutants and your method.

But maybe my installation is missing something, as the masturbation animations don't work. My player is simply standing still. Everything else seems to work as expected. Just didn't expect range finding to be only good for about 1m close to the target.

Good to hear that hotkeys and nudiesuits are planned. :cool:

Do the nudiesuits come with bodyslide data, so we can apply alternate animation physics to the models through the program, like with CHCBBEP in case of human females?

*DocClox* · May 4, 2017

Never used test cell terminals, but I tried the one with "coc zUnusedSubwayTerminalShowcase" and got about 3 secs at opening the terminal. Hope you didn't mean something else. My system itself has strong CPU and RAM, but weak GPU power and the game isn't using SSD space.

"coc 4test" will take you to the cell where I have various test cases set up for the mod. You can use terminals there to trigger scenes between the player and actors, or between various NPCs and there are things like group scenes and PA tests.

It's usefuf if you don't know if a problem is 4P or a mod that uses it, since there's only 4P driving those terminal scenes.

Do the nudiesuits come with bodyslide data, so we can apply alternate animation physics to the models through the program, like with CHCBBEP in case of human females?

I expect so. They're courtesy of BringTheNoise who's been waiting patiently for me to find time to install them. I finally got my CK back, so hopefully this weekend, RL allowing.

Zereal · May 4, 2017

Ok, did some more testing, reinstalled and kicked out the old crazy sex animations.

Now the Sex 'Em Up animation switching (after placement and undressing) is about 1 sec or immediately and only Leito's gunning still takes 10-20 secs.

But the terminal sex animation at "coc 4test" doesn't work. Did I forget an animation package? The "friendly" guide only highlights the importance of Leito's and the Fix. I even installed the latest gunning crazy animations, yet only Leito's animations are playing with Sex 'Em Up.

Right now I'd tend to give up Leito's gunning and use Sex 'Em Up if I could hotkey switch animations or preset them.

*DocClox* · May 5, 2017

Mmmm... for some reason there seems to be a problem with scripts getting separated from the objects that they're supposed to bind to. A clean save will probably fix the test cell terminals. But if the animations are working outside of that, I'd probably leave well enough alone.

Hotkey control is one of the most requested features, so I'll be looking at that soon.

Chosen Clue · May 6, 2017

Mmmm... for some reason there seems to be a problem with scripts getting separated from the objects that they're supposed to bind to. A clean save will probably fix the test cell terminals. But if the animations are working outside of that, I'd probably leave well enough alone.

Hotkey control is one of the most requested features, so I'll be looking at that soon.

Unfortunately, when registering for hotkeys in F4SE, you have to register for specific DirectX Scan codes, so rebinding hotkeys could be a hassle.

I thought of one way to do it by using a while loop to register for a range of keys(like 1-256) when asking the user for a key they want as a hotkey.

Then, when the OnKeyUp event happens, save the key code integer that was used and unregister the range of keys. But I'm not sure how much papyrus lag would be introduced in a while statement that registers and unregisters for large amounts of keys.

It might be better to program something like that into a DLL that can be used by F4SE in a custom native input script, where a new custom event is made to get the next key the player presses.

VonHelton · May 6, 2017

Mmmm... for some reason there seems to be a problem with scripts getting separated from the objects that they're supposed to bind to. A clean save will probably fix the test cell terminals. But if the animations are working outside of that, I'd probably leave well enough alone.

Hotkey control is one of the most requested features, so I'll be looking at that soon.

Unfortunately, when registering for hotkeys in F4SE, you have to register for specific DirectX Scan codes, so rebinding hotkeys could be a hassle.

I thought of one way to do it by using a while loop to register for a range of keys(like 1-256) when asking the user for a key they want as a hotkey.

Then, when the OnKeyUp event happens, save the key code integer that was used and unregister the range of keys. But I'm not sure how much papyrus lag would be introduced in a while statement that registers and unregisters for large amounts of keys.

It might be better to program something like that into a DLL that can be used by F4SE in a custom native input script, where a new custom event is made to get the next key the player presses.

The less dependant we are on F4SE, the better, IMHO........Even better, that we come up with an F4SE of our own, if it's nessesary.

Almost *TWO YEAR DELAY* is totally unacceptable!!

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

*jaam* · May 6, 2017

Can you people stop being such asshole regarding other people work! So far they never failed to deliver so SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Lurker001 · May 6, 2017

Mmmm... for some reason there seems to be a problem with scripts getting separated from the objects that they're supposed to bind to. A clean save will probably fix the test cell terminals. But if the animations are working outside of that, I'd probably leave well enough alone.

Hotkey control is one of the most requested features, so I'll be looking at that soon.

Unfortunately, when registering for hotkeys in F4SE, you have to register for specific DirectX Scan codes, so rebinding hotkeys could be a hassle.

I thought of one way to do it by using a while loop to register for a range of keys(like 1-256) when asking the user for a key they want as a hotkey.

Then, when the OnKeyUp event happens, save the key code integer that was used and unregister the range of keys. But I'm not sure how much papyrus lag would be introduced in a while statement that registers and unregisters for large amounts of keys.

It might be better to program something like that into a DLL that can be used by F4SE in a custom native input script, where a new custom event is made to get the next key the player presses.

The less dependant we are on F4SE, the better, IMHO........Even better, that we come up with an F4SE of our own, if it's nessesary.

Almost *TWO YEAR DELAY* is totally unacceptable!!

:angry: :angry:

Fallout 4 was released on Nov 10 2015, that is hardly 2 years ago (more like 1 and a half), and on top of that, the final patch was only released a few months ago (February I believe).

I get that it's been frustrating, but seriously, the way some of you have gone about venting your frustration has been... adding to that frustration. People like CPU and his team didn't need the open hostility being directed their way because they weren't working fast enough with what they got, and neither do the people making F4SE.

I get that it's a cliche thing to say by this point, but it still holds true... If you don't like the timetable that people are making a mod or even F4SE for your, and for free I may add, then do better. Make one yourself.

Screaming into the night because it's not done to your timetable only frustrates people and makes them wonder why they even bothered. Then you get abandoned projects and closed threads.

This makes no sense...

Chosen Clue · May 6, 2017

Unfortunately, when registering for hotkeys in F4SE, you have to register for specific DirectX Scan codes, so rebinding hotkeys could be a hassle.

I thought of one way to do it by using a while loop to register for a range of keys(like 1-256) when asking the user for a key they want as a hotkey.

Then, when the OnKeyUp event happens, save the key code integer that was used and unregister the range of keys. But I'm not sure how much papyrus lag would be introduced in a while statement that registers and unregisters for large amounts of keys.

It might be better to program something like that into a DLL that can be used by F4SE in a custom native input script, where a new custom event is made to get the next key the player presses.

The less dependant we are on F4SE, the better, IMHO........Even better, that we come up with an F4SE of our own, if it's nessesary.

Almost *TWO YEAR DELAY* is totally unacceptable!!

:angry: :angry:

The more dependant we are on F4SE the better for us modders, as the good ol F4SE team is creating script extenders for us so we don't have to do the bullshit rigamarole of having to code it ourselves in the Papyrus scripting engine, which will definitely slow down all of your game's other scripts.

Script extenders like F4SE are basic requirements in modding communities like this, otherwise we wouldn't have SexLab, SexOut, PK Lovers, and more mods than you think.

Simply put, F4SE and the other script extenders are an amazing community effort to add functionality to a game without tampering with the original files, and forgoing any of the script extenders in any of the Bethesda Game Studios games is like cutting off one of your own limbs, and then trying to create a cyberneticly enhanced one yourself.

Just be patient, there's still Fallout NV with SexOut if you want Fallout sex that desperately, and Skyrim and Oblivion if you just want sex in general, with Skyrim being the most advanced. Fallout 4 sex that's as advanced as Skyrim will have to wait.

And keep up the good work DocClox. Don't worry about people saying you shouldn't use F4SE or anything like that. Just do whatever feels right.

pipdude · May 6, 2017

Screaming into the night because it's not done to your timetable only frustrates people and makes them wonder why they even bothered.

If it isn't done, what would they have "bothered" with?

Anyway, there is recent activity on F4SE. So, no complaints needed. Sounds like we will get a build for it soon!

Lurker001 · May 6, 2017

Screaming into the night because it's not done to your timetable only frustrates people and makes them wonder why they even bothered.

If it isn't done, what would they have "bothered" with?

Anyway, there is recent activity on F4SE. So, no complaints needed. Sounds like we will get a build for it soon!

There is already an insane amount of work that has been done. Beta 3.0 F4SE, and all the planning and prep work done by CPU and co. waiting for a functional F4SE to come along with the functions that they need.

pipdude · May 7, 2017

Screaming into the night because it's not done to your timetable only frustrates people and makes them wonder why they even bothered.

If it isn't done, what would they have "bothered" with?

Anyway, there is recent activity on F4SE. So, no complaints needed. Sounds like we will get a build for it soon!

There is already an insane amount of work that has been done. Beta 3.0 F4SE, and all the planning and prep work done by CPU and co. waiting for a functional F4SE to come along with the functions that they need.

IMO, you're doing the work for the wrong reasons if you don't like that people want your work more quickly.

Lurker001 · May 7, 2017

Screaming into the night because it's not done to your timetable only frustrates people and makes them wonder why they even bothered.

If it isn't done, what would they have "bothered" with?

Anyway, there is recent activity on F4SE. So, no complaints needed. Sounds like we will get a build for it soon!

There is already an insane amount of work that has been done. Beta 3.0 F4SE, and all the planning and prep work done by CPU and co. waiting for a functional F4SE to come along with the functions that they need.

IMO, you're doing the work for the wrong reasons if you don't like that people want your work more quickly.

People work on whatever they like on their own time for their own reasons. So no reason is ever a wrong reason.

Bottom line is, these guys were doing something for free and people were ragging on them for it not being up to their personal standards or timetable.

If they were kick-starter backers or had donated money, resources, or the like that is different, because then you are invested and within your rights to make demands... if not? That is just selfish, and you can't justify that... its a shitty thing to do to someone. Period.

I'm not a hardcore modder and really only do text and balancing edits, but I do have my own creative pursuits and deal with this same mentality in what I do. My line in the sand is this... "Unless you are paying me, or there is a concrete demand due to it being my part in a joint project... back off"

phwolf · May 7, 2017

Anyone else aware that with the Four-play with FP Sex em Up; you can carry on conversations with some animations during scenes. Like when you confront Kellogg, you have time to walk up to him , hit the "h" key and have the conversation continue. Doesn't work with all conversations , mostly those that involve you walking away and coming back with them asking you if you're leaving, and if you start the scene when the person you are talking too, there is a chance your chr will rotate thanks to dynamic conversations and head tracking. I don't know the animations names , but doggie style where the male is kneeling works really well most of the times. I use both the controller and m/kb cause of the issue with mouse acceleration w/ m/kb only that can cause your chr to always turn around. It makes for some crazy moments if you get the right animation to play

pipdude · May 7, 2017

People work on whatever they like on their own time for their own reasons. So no reason is ever a wrong reason.

Bottom line is, these guys were doing something for free and people were ragging on them for it not being up to their personal standards or timetable.

If they were kick-starter backers or had donated money, resources, or the like that is different, because then you are invested and within your rights to make demands... if not? That is just selfish, and you can't justify that... its a shitty thing to do to someone. Period.

I'm not a hardcore modder and really only do text and balancing edits, but I do have my own creative pursuits and deal with this same mentality in what I do. My line in the sand is this... "Unless you are paying me, or there is a concrete demand due to it being my part in a joint project... back off"

How is it a shitty thing to do to a person to want their good work?

Really, nothing at all has been "done" to them.

Zereal · May 7, 2017

The more dependant we are on F4SE the better for us modders, as the good ol F4SE team is creating script extenders for us so we don't have to do the bullshit rigamarole of having to code it ourselves in the Papyrus scripting engine, which will definitely slow down all of your game's other scripts.

Script extenders like F4SE are basic requirements in modding communities like this, otherwise we wouldn't have SexLab, SexOut, PK Lovers, and more mods than you think.

Simply put, F4SE and the other script extenders are an amazing community effort to add functionality to a game without tampering with the original files, and forgoing any of the script extenders in any of the Bethesda Game Studios games is like cutting off one of your own limbs, and then trying to create a cyberneticly enhanced one yourself.

Just be patient, there's still Fallout NV with SexOut if you want Fallout sex that desperately, and Skyrim and Oblivion if you just want sex in general, with Skyrim being the most advanced. Fallout 4 sex that's as advanced as Skyrim will have to wait.

And keep up the good work DocClox. Don't worry about people saying you shouldn't use F4SE or anything like that. Just do whatever feels right.

I don't want to say anything bad about modders working on hard to mod things (script extension, animation, etc.) we have to rely on because we can't do or are willing to do the job.

But with the script extending team (F4SE, SKSE64) the main problem is that there is almost no passage of knowledge or people that can take over if something goes wrong as it seemed to be the last months. Is it even a community effort or a very tiny group of people with almost no contact and if it fails than the community would have built their whole modding on sand, because their never was a plan B (other than starting it from zero again with different people).

I'm not sure if people are to blame for getting nervous, fearing that the whole community projects relying on F4SE share the same fate like the "Tower of Pisa", because the script extending knowledge gets lost into the void. Or that Bethesda already changed their code enough to make script extending an awful practice. A lot of people can't just see the community slowly falling, because F4SE has gotten the foundation of all. But unfortunately the foundation is much weaker than the strong community based on it.

So I'd say if the script extension team is unable to pass their knowledge to successors or others, it would be wise to minimize script extension dependencies (what can only be done with script extension). Another argument for minimizing is that it also minimizes the work for the script extending team. Less requests for stuff to be done, speeding up the necessary minimum to actually get done.

4Play already can do lots of stuff. And F4 allows alot more than with the other games already. Menus for example could be done through crafted terminals instead an MCM. Animations don't need FNIS. And a lot more nonhumans have the right skeletons for full character animations. I think F4 needs far less essential functions than with F3 or FNV.

I even tend to think that Bodyslide is far more important now. If someone could apply dynamic bodyslide changes or attach presets for groups it would be a major breakthrough allowing not only different faces, but also different or morphing bodies.

What functions are really essential as a minimum now, that can't be done otherwise? Can we nail this down? Define what is a F4SE must and what just optional? Maybe it would help to find the shortest function list possible.

My personal opinion: Skip all MCM stuff. Care about fast and exact positioning for animations. Then hotkey handling. Then multiple nude bodies for undressing the next step. That would be the basics.

Skript communication, interface and framework stuff should really wait for F4SE to get along. But in the end someone has to find out what's the fastest reliable way to exchange information from mod script to mod script through a framework. If there is a fast and reliable way without F4SE functions through hijacking some new F4 features ... but someone really has to test this. Otherwise there is no way around script extension. Then be it.

So Chosen Clue and DocClox, I thank you very much for your work. Try to find out the minimum to rely on F4SE until this train is safe again. I wish I could share your vision of just being patient, though I still tend to hope everything is going well again. Maybe just keep an eye on a plan B. Just for the worst case.

Darkening Demise · May 7, 2017

Can you people stop being such asshole regarding other people work! So far they never failed to deliver so SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Lurker001 · May 7, 2017

People work on whatever they like on their own time for their own reasons. So no reason is ever a wrong reason.

Bottom line is, these guys were doing something for free and people were ragging on them for it not being up to their personal standards or timetable.

If they were kick-starter backers or had donated money, resources, or the like that is different, because then you are invested and within your rights to make demands... if not? That is just selfish, and you can't justify that... its a shitty thing to do to someone. Period.

I'm not a hardcore modder and really only do text and balancing edits, but I do have my own creative pursuits and deal with this same mentality in what I do. My line in the sand is this... "Unless you are paying me, or there is a concrete demand due to it being my part in a joint project... back off"

How is it a shitty thing to do to a person to want their good work?

Really, nothing at all has been "done" to them.

They are doing something for free and then have to deal with heaps of attitude and pressure to do better despite the fact that there is no tangible reward, and you don't see that as a shitty way to treat someone?

What you are suggesting only works if you offer them incentive, and not just shit on them.

If I am making something for you and you are treating me like shit as payment... I'm more likely to say "Screw you" and not give you anything at all... and that would be totally fair of me to do so. In fact, because of this entitled attitude among people, many artists are starting to have to do that more and more. If someone offers something you value, pay them what it is worth. If they are putting effort into something you value, encourage them... don't belittle them.

How is this NOT common sense to people?

Arrow and the Knee · May 7, 2017

me-

*comes to thread after a week and a half of being out of the loop looking for updates

*and sees a page and a half of this.

See ya in another week and a half

Also, wanna drop my kudos once again to DocClox and co. (leito, halstrom, vinfamy, etc). You all've done a fantastic job so far '3

pipdude · May 7, 2017

They are doing something for free and then have to deal with heaps of attitude and pressure to do better despite the fact that there is no tangible reward, and you don't see that as a shitty way to treat someone?

What you are suggesting only works if you offer them incentive, and not just shit on them.

If I am making something for you and you are treating me like shit as payment... I'm more likely to say "Screw you" and not give you anything at all... and that would be totally fair of me to do so. In fact, because of this entitled attitude among people, many artists are starting to have to do that more and more. If someone offers something you value, pay them what it is worth. If they are putting effort into something you value, encourage them... don't belittle them.

How is this NOT common sense to people?

What you are suggesting is that nobody can express an opinion about how a project is going on the basis that the author isn't getting paid.

That gives open source work a bad name. It sends the message that free, open source projects can't be expected to be as high quality or well run as their professional counterparts.

However, that isn't true. There are open source projects that are as high quality and well run as any for-profit business. There are free mods on this site that are run better than many pay-software projects. It serves nobody well to try and shut down critical assessments of any software. For free or for profit.

And again, wanting someones work is not "shitting on" or "belittling" them as you suggest. It is the opposite. Assuming that the point of the author doing the work for free is to provide people with something of value, expressions of wanting the work IS encouragement.

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