SSE Criticism Thread

[Shiratama]

VR makes me sick. I mean that literally -- it starts with headaches then I feel woobly and eventually throw up. I've heard of similar experiences for other people, so I hope the VR only era isn't here just yet

[prinyo]

VR makes me sick. I mean that literally -- it starts with headaches then I feel woobly and eventually throw up. I've heard of similar experiences for other people, so I hope the VR only era isn't here just yet

 

I had the same problem the first few days. Especially when trying SKyrim with vorpX. After several minutes I was getting a terrible headache and it lasted for hours. I hated the damn thing. But then I radically changed the setup and started to get used to it. It can take some time for some people to get their "VR legs". The most important is to take it slowly, not to push yourself and to be mindful of the content - don't start with fast moving experiences.

In case of SKyrim - don't start with the full VR zoom, even 4-5 steps forward can make you dizzy. Start with maximum zoomed out and slowly dive into it. 

[Gothfather]

 

VR makes me sick. I mean that literally -- it starts with headaches then I feel woobly and eventually throw up. I've heard of similar experiences for other people, so I hope the VR only era isn't here just yet

 

I had the same problem the first few days. Especially when trying SKyrim with vorpX. After several minutes I was getting a terrible headache and it lasted for hours. I hated the damn thing. But then I radically changed the setup and started to get used to it. It can take some time for some people to get their "VR legs". The most important is to take it slowly, not to push yourself and to be mindful of the content - don't start with fast moving experiences.

In case of SKyrim - don't start with the full VR zoom, even 4-5 steps forward can make you dizzy. Start with maximum zoomed out and slowly dive into it. 

 

 

The issue is frame rates. In VR you want at least 90 FPS but perferably 120 FPS. There is a direct link to lower frame rates and people feeling sick. It doesn't effect all people the same way but a significant percentage of people get sick on any VR title that isn't at least 90 FPs  and for some they are not comfortable unless they are watching things at 120 FPS or better.

 

Skyrim I believe is capped at 60 FPS because of the engine limitations which makes it very unVR friendly.

 

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/BenLewisEvans/20140404/214732/Simulation_Sickness_and_VR__What_is_it_and_what_can_developers_and_players_do_to_reduce_it.php

 

here is an article on simulator sickness and the very first thing they say to help mitigate it for players is...

 

 

 

Maintain high frame rates and low latency: It isn’t just for game quality reasons that the folks at Oculus, Sony, and Valve have been stressing the need for low latency, responsiveness, and high frame rates.

 

It then goes on to talk about the latency delay increases the chance of simulator sickness. The article list possible theories as to why simulator sickness happens and list ways to reduce it. Worth a read if you want to know possible reasons why VR makes you sick.

[chevalierx]

watch video to the end lolllllllllllllll

 

it like old skyrim modded vs SE

Skyrim SE at 0:59

 

[LordJerle]

I'm waiting on SKSE64.  Then I'm gonna mod the hell out of it.  I launched it to take a gander and closed it the second I could access the menu.

[Guest enip]

Can't take a video serious when it's making a graphics comparison in low quality.

[Shiratama]

 

Of all the reasons to complain about Bethesda it boggles the mind that you idiots fixated on the one example of Bethesda being a good corporate citizen while ignoring their very consumer unfriendly stance on reviews copies and influencer copies.

 

I brought up this point several times and I think TamaChan did as well but no one seems to give a shit. Apparently rehashing old drama and name-calling is more interesting.

 

About VR, I honestly don't know much about the subject, and I'm not especially interested to begin with. I only tried a couple times with my boyfriend who seems to yearn for the day he'll be able to perfectly simulate shooting on russians.

 

[Kaz Aanh]

Best VR is triple monitor setup

[TamaChan]

 

-snip-

 

Personally I'm not angry just because there aren't many mods available at release. I am angry because not many mods available at release, and because beth could have enabled there to be many more mods at release. I have mentioned before that they added a whole bunch of stuff that makes not a huge difference, but renders tones of stuff incompatible. I would rather be able to use enb with nearly all features asap, than have beth's stupid god rays. If they had not fucked with all the lighting and graphics stuff in skyrim, then enb would be much more compatible with sse. Although I will say, I'm still not sure if enb works on consoles, so it would be suck for them to be stuck with oldrim graphics and no enb. But honestly all the stuff beth added doesn't even seem to make a huge difference, and if I was on console, I would prefer better frames as opposed to all the graphics stuff they added.

[b00marrows]

Haha! "VR", get outa here.
Head mounted monitors with motion controlls, over-hype at its finiest.

[TamaChan]

Haha! "VR", get outa here.

Head mounted monitors with motion controlls, over-hype at its finiest.

I actually like vr, just don't think it's at a point where it's really viable for most stuff. And like godfather pointed out, the fact that skyrim needs to be capped at 60-fps to prevent bugs, really makes a triple monitor setup more ideal.

 

edit: I really like vr. But after some analysis, vr is not even an option for skyrim because of my control setup. I need to be able to see my keyboard.

[Captain Cobra]

Augmented reality is the future tbqhwy.

[y2k6]

 

At this point I'm not even excited for TES6, More like horrified at the thought of what it might be like.

 

here is your answer on it.

 

It has been five years since The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim has appeared. For the E3 2016 many wanted an announcement to The Elder Scrolls 6, however, it became known as nothing. This could mean, however, that a new part may already be in development, Twitter users thought HotShame and hooked at Pete Hines, as it is the continuation. This gave back as answer that at the Elder Scrolls 6 at least at the moment is not worked.

 

http://www.giga.de/unternehmen/bethesda-softworks/news/the-elder-scrolls-6-befindet-sich-leider-doch-nicht-in-entwicklung/

 

This is a statement by Pete Hines!

 

So it would always be an additional burden for the developers, if one had to create early trailers and demos. The work on the game is thus unnecessarily interrupted. According to Hines, "The Elder Scrolls 6" is not a topic for a very long time and neither the next nor the next project of the company. The only reason why Hines has already confirmed that the title comes at all is that he's fed up with the fact that he is constantly being asked about it.

 

http://www.computerbild.de/artikel/cbs-News-PC-The-Elder-Scrolls-6-Skyrim-2-12079348.html

 

Seeing how TES6 will be in Valenwood. Bethesda is going to need to pull a miracle out of their ass, since its a whole different landscape compared to Skyrim. But it's been said that they're waiting for newer and better technology to create the game around. Seeing as they're waiting and have some games in line before TES6 we won't be seeing it announced probably not until 2019 at the least.

[gregathit]

Ok, news flash, this is the SSE criticism thread.  If you love the game, then go somewhere else, this isn't the thread for you.  This is for folks that for whatever reason, don't like the game in part or in whole.  This is an opinion thread, so there isn't any "right" answer, so let's not insult one another.

[slutofshades]

 

 

-snip-

 

Personally I'm not angry just because there aren't many mods available at release. I am angry because not many mods available at release, and because beth could have enabled there to be many more mods at release. I have mentioned before that they added a whole bunch of stuff that makes not a huge difference, but renders tones of stuff incompatible. I would rather be able to use enb with nearly all features asap, than have beth's stupid god rays. If they had not fucked with all the lighting and graphics stuff in skyrim, then enb would be much more compatible with sse. Although I will say, I'm still not sure if enb works on consoles, so it would be suck for them to be stuck with oldrim graphics and no enb. But honestly all the stuff beth added doesn't even seem to make a huge difference, and if I was on console, I would prefer better frames as opposed to all the graphics stuff they added.

 

 

*blinks*

 

But... if they had of not touched all the lighting and graphics and stuff, The posse in here would be throwing even more shade at Beth's way for even less effort on their part... understandably so

[TamaChan]

 

-snip-

 

*blinks*

 

But... if they had of not touched all the lighting and graphics and stuff, The posse in here would be throwing even more shade at Beth's way for even less effort on their part... understandably so

 

I can't talk about about anyone else's opinions, but if beth had been better about maintaining compatibility, and basically released skyrim64 instead of sse, the only thing I would be complaining about is beth's shitty practices in general. It's unlikely the beta would have happened the way it did if they had left the game as bare bones. So, I would be comepletely happy with skyrim64. Nearly everything would be compatible except for skse which would have to be updated. Which would mean it would take very little time for everything to be good to go. I'm not that angry about the visual stuff, but without the visual stuff, I would likely have nothing to be angry about. But the thing that is with out a doubt most angering is how some of the beta modders were treated. Now how others feel about beth changing nothing except base engine is unknown. But it seems like it would have been the best compromise. To just release an engine upgrade for either free, or minimal pricing for pc($30 max). If they wanted to release on console, I have no idea.

 

edit: So what I meant was if beth is gonna add visual stuff, I think they did it half-assed. I would prefer they either do a better job of visual improvement, or not do it at all. This mostly goes for all their additions. The only thing that seems worth it is the water. After understanding what they did to the water, I think that's kinda cool. But I do believe in order to have the water, they had to update havok, so even that I think I would prefer without.

 

Ok, news flash, this is the SSE criticism thread.  If you love the game, then go somewhere else, this isn't the thread for you.  This is for folks that for whatever reason, don't like the game in part or in whole.  This is an opinion thread, so there isn't any "right" answer, so let's not insult one another.

Thank you greg. I think I speak for everyone when I say the main problem is not people who support beth coming in here, it was some of them slinging insults. Some of them and us have been having very constructive talks on what's wrong with sse, and possible ways it could have or could be fixed.

[prinyo]

 

 

 

[ ... ]

 

Bethesda needs to be completely crazy to develop TES6 now. Talos himself can not make a game to succeed Skyrim.

 

They need something radically different as a platform, something that will make impossible to make simple comparisons.

Something that will make impossible to write reviews like "Fallout 4 is a great game, but a bad Fallout game." Because whatever they do with TES6 now it can be a great game but it will not be a great TES game.

 

And they don't need a new TES game at the moment. They can make "Skyrim in space" and everyone will buy it. They can use the magic term "Bethesda open world game" because there is Skyrim here to reinforce it. They can not afford to damage the cult status of Skyrim and TES in any way.

I think they have nothing to fear, they are in such a position that they can release any turd and people are going to be buying it in milions.

They will keep doing what they are best at, making bare bone games and leave the rest to modders.

 

 

That was my point actually. As long as Skyrim 's cult status stays the way it is they have nothing to worry. 

On the second point - the biggets problem FO4 has is that they tried to mix the two approaches - the open sandbox and the storytelling. And it didn't work. I really hope they do not attempt this again.

I think we all agree that the power of the Beth games is in the open world sandbox that is a framework for people's imagination, roleplaying and mods, and not cinematics, voiced player character, animated dialogues with a hardcoded structure an so on. As a simple rule those things work in games where you know the name of the protagonist. In The Witcher it is Gerald, in ME it is commander Shepard, so there is already a person that the game (more or less) tells you that your character is. 

[TamaChan]

 

-snip-

 

That was my point actually. As long as Skyrim 's cult status stays the way it is they have nothing to worry. 

On the second point - the biggets problem FO4 has is that they tried to mix the two approaches - the open sandbox and the storytelling. And it didn't work. I really hope they do not try to attempt this again.

I think we all agree that the power of the Beth games is in the open world sandbox that is a framework for people's imagination, roleplaying and mods, and not cinematics, voiced player character, animated dialogues with a hardcoded structure an so on. As a simple rule those things work in games where you know the name of the protagonist. In The Witcher it is Gerald, in ME it is commander Shepard, so there is already a person that the game (more or less) tells you that your character is. 

 

Just to add to your nall-edge. Usually when referring to the different things on the internet, we have the terms j-rpg and normal or western rpg. J-rpg usually have more decided main characters who have established names and often even personalities. But western rpgs often prefer the silent protag or create your own main character approach. Western rpg almost always have more freedom, but J-rpg often have more detailed story.

[prinyo]

 

 

VR makes me sick. I mean that literally -- it starts with headaches then I feel woobly and eventually throw up. I've heard of similar experiences for other people, so I hope the VR only era isn't here just yet

 

I had the same problem the first few days. Especially when trying SKyrim with vorpX. After several minutes I was getting a terrible headache and it lasted for hours. I hated the damn thing. But then I radically changed the setup and started to get used to it. It can take some time for some people to get their "VR legs". The most important is to take it slowly, not to push yourself and to be mindful of the content - don't start with fast moving experiences.

In case of SKyrim - don't start with the full VR zoom, even 4-5 steps forward can make you dizzy. Start with maximum zoomed out and slowly dive into it. 

 

 

The issue is frame rates. In VR you want at least 90 FPS but perferably 120 FPS. There is a direct link to lower frame rates and people feeling sick. It doesn't effect all people the same way but a significant percentage of people get sick on any VR title that isn't at least 90 FPs  and for some they are not comfortable unless they are watching things at 120 FPS or better.

 

Skyrim I believe is capped at 60 FPS because of the engine limitations which makes it very unVR friendly.

 

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/BenLewisEvans/20140404/214732/Simulation_Sickness_and_VR__What_is_it_and_what_can_developers_and_players_do_to_reduce_it.php

 

here is an article on simulator sickness and the very first thing they say to help mitigate it for players is...

 

 

 

Maintain high frame rates and low latency: It isn’t just for game quality reasons that the folks at Oculus, Sony, and Valve have been stressing the need for low latency, responsiveness, and high frame rates.

 

It then goes on to talk about the latency delay increases the chance of simulator sickness. The article list possible theories as to why simulator sickness happens and list ways to reduce it. Worth a read if you want to know possible reasons why VR makes you sick.

 

 

 

The framerate is one of the several reasons for motion sickness in VR and it is not the one that is the problem with Skyrim (or Fallout)

 

The problem is with the differences in what your different senses report to your brain. For example when your eyes see that you are walking there is the inner ear to confirm that and to provide details about the balance of your body so the brain can initiate the needed muscle movements in order to accommodate that. But then in VR you eyes tell you that you are moving but nothing else confirms that. The current theory is that when this happens the brain assumes you have been poisoned and goes into emergency mode trying to get rid of any substances you have consumed recently. ( more on this )

The framerate part of the VR sickness has 2 aspects - first it need to be high enough as you say and second to not drop frames. For me personally the dropped frames are the biger problem, because the brain will adapt to the lower fps but it can't predict and adapt to drops. But there are many games and experiences that will give you motion sickness even with high and stable framerate. The industry is still experimenting on how to combat this. For example a roller coaster ride can be perfectly fine for most people if the movement is at a constant speed and if it renders part of the ride the player is suposed to be sitting in.

 

Going back to Skyrim (and Fallout 3, NV. 4) - they can be played in VR using vorpX. It uses it's own ATW solution. It caps the game at 45 fps and inserts it's own frames feeding the headset with a steady 90fps stream. Even if your games framerate falls you will still get the 90 fps that you need.

The motion sickness in this case is caused by the player character movement. It all comes down to getting used to this. You can make it easier on yourself by repositioning the hud so it is always visible gibing you a non moving reference. You can also zoom out the game initially. Playing in 3rd person also help a lot at the beginning.

 

Now going back to the topic of the thread. If you play Skyrim in 3D or in VR all the changes they made in SSE compared to Oldrim are bad. They made the world look worse and they hampered the performance of the game. If you play the game flat then those things are not an issue.

 

 

P.S. Tripple monitor setup compared to VR is like a comix compared to a movie.

[TamaChan]

-snip-

Very interesting. I don't own a vr headset and know very little about them besides the basic concept. This does make vr sound a little better for skyrim, but honestly, I still really need to able to see my keyboard. I have so many mods and hotkeys, that I would need to take the headset off whenever not in combat and doing something else just to remember where my keys are. The only thing I have seen to possibly mitigate this is using one of the left hand mini-controllers, where it has like 15 map-able keys and a joystick.

 

edit: All that reading was really interesting, although some of it I did know. I mainly didn't know that the problem with vr was motion sickness, I assumed it was something to do with the 2 screens being viewed independently by your eyes. Although for immersion vr is much better than triple monitor, if you are like me, you use ts3/steam while gaming and also have a couple wiki pages up for your game. This is another reason I might prefer 3 monitors to vr. Monitors I can easily alt tab to view necessary documents(If I have a 4th monitor, I can even have 1 monitor always dedicated to chrome, ts3, etc.). I have never used vr, but I get the feeling it might not be so fluid.

[yatol]

 

Some of them and us have been having very constructive talks on what's wrong with sse, and possible ways it could have or could be fixed.

 

 

constructive blabla? where?

 

http://wccftech.com/skyrim-special-edition-patch-1-1-available/

Aditionally, only 1Gb of space is reserved for mods on PS4, while the Xbox One version has 5GB of mod space.

ps4 can't even use 3dnpc, so much for the "mods for console"

 

http://steamcommunity.com/games/489830/announcements/detail/344917630360514375

-Fixed issue related to using alt-tab while playing the game (PC)

there's still that?

-Fixed crash related to changing from werewolf back to human form

it wouldn't be fun without new bugs (or it's taken care of by unof patch so many don't know about it)

 

who remember tesval?

saw a link here to the forum beta with some blabla that look similar, some fanboys worshipping bethesda for recompiling after doing a little optimisation (maybe i am the only one wondering why they didn't bother optimizing their code, or if there are other surprises left)

 

still don't know anything about the engine performance (maybe the reviewers are angry they only got the game one day before release, more will do that if they don't take sanctions)

[Aria]

 

 

 

 

[ ... ]

 

Bethesda needs to be completely crazy to develop TES6 now. Talos himself can not make a game to succeed Skyrim.

 

They need something radically different as a platform, something that will make impossible to make simple comparisons.

Something that will make impossible to write reviews like "Fallout 4 is a great game, but a bad Fallout game." Because whatever they do with TES6 now it can be a great game but it will not be a great TES game.

 

And they don't need a new TES game at the moment. They can make "Skyrim in space" and everyone will buy it. They can use the magic term "Bethesda open world game" because there is Skyrim here to reinforce it. They can not afford to damage the cult status of Skyrim and TES in any way.

I think they have nothing to fear, they are in such a position that they can release any turd and people are going to be buying it in milions.

They will keep doing what they are best at, making bare bone games and leave the rest to modders.

 

 

That was my point actually. As long as Skyrim 's cult status stays the way it is they have nothing to worry. 

On the second point - the biggets problem FO4 has is that they tried to mix the two approaches - the open sandbox and the storytelling. And it didn't work. I really hope they do not attempt this again.

I think we all agree that the power of the Beth games is in the open world sandbox that is a framework for people's imagination, roleplaying and mods, and not cinematics, voiced player character, animated dialogues with a hardcoded structure an so on. As a simple rule those things work in games where you know the name of the protagonist. In The Witcher it is Gerald, in ME it is commander Shepard, so there is already a person that the game (more or less) tells you that your character is. 

 

Yeah thats one of the positive part of their games, modders can be creative and do their own thing, but my problem with beth games stems more from not doing a true step forward.

I mean if you look at the CDPRs witcher games and how much progress they made, from graphics to writting to animations to cutscenes, thats some amazing progression.

Then you have bethesda that, besides doing some decent world space as always and upping the graphics here and there, is pretty much standing in one place.

The writting is still terrible, so are the animations, the combat hasnt changed since morrowind, its still in a basic form, then you have the lazy passive perks etc.

They rely so much on modders that they dont want to make any unnecessary step forward then is needed.

I mean these people have so much money, wich other studio can sell a 6 year old game for a full retail price and have people buy it, yet their games are so outdated its mind boggling.

Now they trying to make money out of modders, the very people who kept their games alive for years.

 

I dont even have a problem with shit writting if the combat is fun and diverse , the perks are creative, all the options for a sandbox game that could be fun, but this is not the case with bethesda, all they been doing for a decade is repeating the same old formula without any true enhancements to it...they keep peeling away all these things that once added depth and instead add generic fetch/kill quests with whatever sells these days, like FO4s base building.

 

Immagine how awesome FO4 could have been as a post-apocalyptic world, where you would have had the options to choose your race, like super mutant or a synth and experience it with different combat styles, unique perks, dialogue options.. the replayability would have exploded.

Instead you are running arround building bases for retarded npcs who cant protect themselfs, live in shacks and do endless fetch/kill quests.

 

Or, idk, maybe im just expecting too much.

[slutofshades]

 

edit: So what I meant was if beth is gonna add visual stuff, I think they did it half-assed. I would prefer they either do a better job of visual improvement, or not do it at all. This mostly goes for all their additions. The only thing that seems worth it is the water. After understanding what they did to the water, I think that's kinda cool. But I do believe in order to have the water, they had to update havok, so even that I think I would prefer without.

 

 

 

Now this part I entirely agree with.

 

My main gripe with SSE is the lack of updating models/meshes/textures.

 

Yes, people can wave it off that "Whats the point Modders will just make better ones anyway" but thats not any use to PS4 players, and its only limited use to XBOne players since they have a download limit.

 

It would not have killed them to remake the textures, or update the models. It would not have hurt compatibility at all with older mods, and then people who can't use modded assets could atleast have a 2014/15 looking game instead of a 2014 lighting engine with a 2010 model/texture aesthetic.

 

I know the dates don't line up but lets face it, when Skyrim came out in 2011 it was -not- using 2011 standards of textures and meshes.

 

In fairness to them, with updating havok they did make converting old to new havok behaviors as painless as possible... but yeah, their visual overhaul was very half assed.

 

The other gripe i have with SSE is their decision to entirely ignore existing bugs. Sure we have USLEEP or whatever we call the one for SSE... but with a "remastering" of a 5 year old game... they had plenty of time to just, fix the shit that they knew about for five whole years.

[TamaChan]

-snip-

I know very little about water and/or the new havok engine. All I do know is that they likely could have gone with the engine fo4 runs on(physx I do believe), if they weren't lazy. Might have required some effort, and adding physics for clothes and hair would have been lots of effort, but I think default extended physics in sse would have been such a fucking win for the game.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

SSE is more of the same from BGS: wasted potential, bugs that they'll know about but never fix, and of course halfhearted efforts that completely ignore player input. After FO4 none of that is surprising. The attitude at Bethesda since Oldrim seems to be "good enough" rather than "good." This, of course, is ignoring the hideous default faces in every game. Would it kill them to hire some decent artists?