Devious Devices - Expansion

[hfhkqidhs]

Not sure how universal this is, but for me upgrading expansion/integration from 4.3 to 4.3a broke the idle gag animation.

 

In 4.3 the PC would keep her mouth open after a gag was placed into it, so the gag did not clip. The mouth would occasionally close for a brief moment, but it would open again quickly. In 4.3a the mouth is open only briefly after the initial insertion of the gag, and then it closes permanently.

[Mr Technician]

2 hours ago, hfhkqidhs said:

Not sure how universal this is, but for me upgrading expansion/integration from 4.3 to 4.3a broke the idle gag animation.

 

In 4.3 the PC would keep her mouth open after a gag was placed into it, so the gag did not clip. The mouth would occasionally close for a brief moment, but it would open again quickly. In 4.3a the mouth is open only briefly after the initial insertion of the gag, and then it closes permanently.

Ok, did you update DD from 4.3 to 4.3a, than loaded savegame from 4.3 and continue to play? If not - can you make separate savegame file, close the game, launch the game, load this separate save, fast travel somewhere else, wait there or sleep in bed 6 in-game hours, and come back where you started? Also it will take you like 3 minutes real-time max.

Becouse there is something "strange" going on with peoples mods setup or idk what. Me and mr @donttouchmethere have been posting about this at previous page (entire page almost) - also i have made dozillion of screenshots just to proove that gag animation works while standing (struggle and unlocking by key). None of my screenshots proove that was any problem with open mouth - because i didn't have that, lol. In case you have didn't noticed those post - thank you! link is HERE - where it started and this is on page 104 of this thread.

I didn't encounter any "gag-mouth-bug". But maybe your character is "gag" "buged" and you can at least make one game screenshot and post it here... Dont worry to be ashamed - there are honest people here who would like to see that. ?

Also i use upgraded DDi and DDx both versions 4.3a . But if you can confirm - maybe above mister would have a trace whats going on. Also because every user mod setup tends to be different somehow, idk how - it happens.

[hfhkqidhs]

1 hour ago, piotsze said:

Ok, did you update DD from 4.3 to 4.3a, than loaded savegame from 4.3 and continue to play? If not - can you make separate savegame file, close the game, launch the game, load this separate save, fast travel somewhere else, wait there or sleep in bed 6 in-game hours, and come back where you started? Also it will take you like 3 minutes real-time max.

Becouse there is something "strange" going on with peoples mods setup or idk what. Me and mr @donttouchmethere have been posting about this at previous page (entire page almost) - also i have made dozillion of screenshots just to proove that gag animation works while standing (struggle and unlocking by key). None of my screenshots proove that was any problem with open mouth - because i didn't have that, lol. In case you have didn't noticed those post - thank you! link is HERE - where it started and this is on page 104 of this thread.

I didn't encounter any "gag-mouth-bug". But maybe your character is "gag" "buged" and you can at least make one game screenshot and post it here... Dont worry to be ashamed - there are honest people here who would like to see that. ?

Also i use upgraded DDi and DDx both versions 4.3a . But if you can confirm - maybe above mister would have a trace whats going on. Also because every user mod setup tends to be different somehow, idk how - it happens.

I conducted a few tests, and I had some good and some bad results.

 

The good part: I tested the newest DD integration/expansion in complete isolation in a new game with practically only SexLab and the needed DD mods. The gag worked 100%.

 

The bad part: the problem is caused by some other mod from my 200+ long list.

 

From what I could visually determine some other mod is trying to override the facial expression/mouth position, and the 4.3 version combats this behavior (the mouth periodically closes/opens), while 4.3a does not (mouth closes and does not open). I'm too tired right now to conduct the tedious testing of trying to find out which mod is causing the problem, but might return to it tomorrow.

[Mr Technician]

27 minutes ago, hfhkqidhs said:

I conducted a few tests, and I had some good and some bad results.

 

The good part: I tested the newest DD integration/expansion in complete isolation in a new game with practically only SexLab and the needed DD mods. The gag worked 100%.

 

The bad part: the problem is caused by some other mod from my 200+ long list.

 

From what I could visually determine some other mod is trying to override the facial expression/mouth position, and the 4.3 version combats this behavior (the mouth periodically closes/opens), while 4.3a does not (mouth closes and does not open). I'm too tired right now to conduct the tedious testing of trying to find out which mod is causing the problem, but might return to it tomorrow.

Good. Here are my plugins loadorder and modlist (folder names) from Skyrim Mod Organizer Classic v1.4 . You can compare it to track "the fighting mod" with DD. But i dont use 200+ plugins, only ~150. I would start testing with Fix Lip Sync mod from nexus - yes, i use it. Also Female Facial Animation. Maybe that will help.

modlist_reversed_order_up-to-down_last-to-first!.txt loadorder.txt

[Zaflis]

8 hours ago, hfhkqidhs said:

Not sure how universal this is, but for me upgrading expansion/integration from 4.3 to 4.3a broke the idle gag animation.

 

In 4.3 the PC would keep her mouth open after a gag was placed into it, so the gag did not clip. The mouth would occasionally close for a brief moment, but it would open again quickly. In 4.3a the mouth is open only briefly after the initial insertion of the gag, and then it closes permanently.

Yes i can observe this as well. I just downgraded from 4.3a back to 4.3 and i'm seeing the periodic mouth closing and instantly opening again about every 7 seconds. Some screenshots:

Spoiler

  --> 

 

And then new game in LAL cell (periodically closes, mostly mouth open). I had to be quick to take this screenshot..:

 

Other things i tried is disabling GagSFX to no effect, enabling also the DD Struggle Idles Patch 1.1, visiting racemenu again without gag and scrolling some mouth expressions sliders aah/bigaah etc. I completely disabled Devious Lore (from MO2 left side list) and its 2 patches, run FNIS and started a new game. In LAL cell with DD 4.3 it is still doing the periodic mouth closing and opening. At least i can now rule out DL as a culprit. Still a few more options remain.

 

So we know DD 4.3 -> 4.3a makes mouth stay closed, it removes periodic event that refreshes it. But we don't know what are other mods that keep closing it.

DD 4.2->4.3 upgrade itself added something like that? Latest SLDialogues? MiasLair is a completely new mod to me and it adds a bunch of things? Devious Framework and DWSupport? Deviously Helpless?

Those should be all that's changed, i have currently disabled Cursed Loot to try those other content more freely and less conflicting. But DCL contains many features that actually help DD, so i don't know if that could actually be "harmful" to have disabled, just i don't think so.

 

To re-iterate the issue does not concern any animations at all. Just racemenu expressions.

[donttouchmethere]

2 hours ago, Zaflis said:

Yes i can observe this as well. I just downgraded from 4.3a back to 4.3 and i'm seeing the periodic mouth closing and instantly opening again about every 7 seconds. Some screenshots:

  Hide contents

  --> 

 

And then new game in LAL cell (periodically closes, mostly mouth open). I had to be quick to take this screenshot..:

 

Other things i tried is disabling GagSFX to no effect, enabling also the DD Struggle Idles Patch 1.1, visiting racemenu again without gag and scrolling some mouth expressions sliders aah/bigaah etc. I completely disabled Devious Lore (from MO2 left side list) and its 2 patches, run FNIS and started a new game. In LAL cell with DD 4.3 it is still doing the periodic mouth closing and opening. At least i can now rule out DL as a culprit. Still a few more options remain.

 

So we know DD 4.3 -> 4.3a makes mouth stay closed, it removes periodic event that refreshes it. But we don't know what are other mods that keep closing it.

DD 4.2->4.3 upgrade itself added something like that? Latest SLDialogues? MiasLair is a completely new mod to me and it adds a bunch of things? Devious Framework and DWSupport? Deviously Helpless?

Those should be all that's changed, i have currently disabled Cursed Loot to try those other content more freely and less conflicting. But DCL contains many features that actually help DD, so i don't know if that could actually be "harmful" to have disabled, just i don't think so.

 

To re-iterate the issue does not concern any animations at all. Just racemenu expressions.

Thanks for ruling out DL!

 

SDdialog doesn't change anything expression related.

MiasLair didn't create such issues on my older setups, and I don't have it installed right now.

Deviously Helpless => not sure, have it installed but it only uses gags from DD anyways

 

DFWS => maybe, but not sure if all that posted expression issues here have it installed, also it would use DD gags. Still in LO it would have the right place to overwrite DDi,x (not physical)

 

Because the issues started with DD4.3 and got worse with DD4.3a, and I see that the DD Team updated gag related functions, I fear that it is now incompatible to certain mods or has a bugged expressions system (not refreshing expressions anymore after first equip).

 

If it's true that DD4.2 doesn't refresh the gag expressions anymore => every mod that adds temporary expressions will be incompatible, like need mods, head tracking, emotional expressions, combat overhauls, stuff like that, also SLF.

As long as non of those mods are installed you might get away without observing issues with DD4.3

 

Just fell back to development build pre DD4.3 and see how that goes.

[Mr Technician]

@Zaflis Can you test this by racemenu and actually change your mouth - for testing - lower them down and make them not so sticky up out of rest of the face? Reson: maybe mesh of the gags is not catching the jaw bone of the skeleton... Anyway - thats my graphical representation what to do, from red position to green position at the character face region:

[Zaflis]

8 minutes ago, piotsze said:

 

But it looks perfect in my first screenshot. IMO it only looks like going through the mouth because expression is wrong. And as said, 99% of the time my game looks like the first picture (where gag works) when i play on 4.3, not 4.3a.

 

I mean it's plausible that there are mods that reset mouth closed after some kind of forced chatting. I could imagine even STA could do that, it is in my load order. The thing is, do those mods stop tracking it after they have closed it once?

[donttouchmethere]

I fell back from DD4.3 to this evil mix:

DDi and DDx are development versions

and there are no issues related to gag expressions anymore with the same LO I tried DDi,x 4.3a on.

 

My (now) standard test for the gag expressions:

> SLAR for triggering a solo SLanimation

> SLF with the following settings:

Important for this test are the Facial Expressions and the Lip Sync setting

This settings simulate also any other mod that changes Lip Sync or facial expressions

Spoiler

 

To test:

> equip any kind of DD gag that makes it possible to observe mouth expressions

> start SL solo animation via "N" key (SLAR)

 

Observation with DDi,x 4.3a:

> after first equip of a DD gag the mouth expression works as intended

> after and during SLscene the mouth expression for DD gags fails and never recovers, unless gag will be reequipped

 

Counter test with DD-development builds pre official 4.3 and 4.3a:

> after first equip of a DD gag the mouth expression works as intended

> after and during SLscene the mouth expression for DD gags recovers every time it gets overwritten by alternative mouth animations, the mouth expression stays after SL scene

 

My conclusion:

> DDi,x 4.3a mouth expression system works on first equip

> DDi,x 4.3a mouth expression system will fail if any alternative expression changes mouth expression and v4.3 won't recover/refresh the initial DD expression.

> Load order is unrelevant

> It is not an compatibility issue with other mods in LO

 

Tested on:

> a running game

> after start of a new game from LAL

> after creating a new char

 

[Schalli1980]

I also have that issue with the gags. But another question to the mod creator. is it possible that you could make the pet suit walking animation a little bit faster?

[Mr Technician]

1 hour ago, donttouchmethere said:

...

To test:

> equip any kind of DD gag that makes it possible to observe mouth expressions

> start SL solo animation via "N" key (SLAR)

 

Observation with DDi,x 4.3a:

> after first equip of a DD gag the mouth expression works as intended

> after and during SLscene the mouth expression for DD gags fails and never recovers, unless gag will be reequipped

...

 

EDIT: Also did a test with Pet Collar mod, collar equipped on a Follower to engage act. Mouth stays closed after the end of act.

[hfhkqidhs]

2 hours ago, donttouchmethere said:

I fell back from DD4.3 to this evil mix:

DDi and DDx are development versions

and there are no issues related to gag expressions anymore with the same LO I tried DDi,x 4.3a on.

 

My (now) standard test for the gag expressions:

> SLAR for triggering a solo SLanimation

> SLF with the following settings:

Important for this test are the Facial Expressions and the Lip Sync setting

This settings simulate also any other mod that changes Lip Sync or facial expressions

  Reveal hidden contents

 

To test:

> equip any kind of DD gag that makes it possible to observe mouth expressions

> start SL solo animation via "N" key (SLAR)

 

Observation with DDi,x 4.3a:

> after first equip of a DD gag the mouth expression works as intended

> after and during SLscene the mouth expression for DD gags fails and never recovers, unless gag will be reequipped

 

Counter test with DD-development builds pre official 4.3 and 4.3a:

> after first equip of a DD gag the mouth expression works as intended

> after and during SLscene the mouth expression for DD gags recovers every time it gets overwritten by alternative mouth animations, the mouth expression stays after SL scene

 

My conclusion:

> DDi,x 4.3a mouth expression system works on first equip

> DDi,x 4.3a mouth expression system will fail if any alternative expression changes mouth expression and v4.3 won't recover/refresh the initial DD expression.

> Load order is unrelevant

> It is not an compatibility issue with other mods in LO

 

Tested on:

> a running game

> after start of a new game from LAL

> after creating a new char

 

I can support this conclusion, and I have to take back what I said earlier about it working 100% in an isolated test environment (SexLab + necessary DD mods). As a matter of fact, it does not work: The mouth is open only after the initial insertion of the gag. After a SexLab animation or a game load the mouth remains closed. What confused me earlier was that I only looked at the gag idle while doing nothing: there IS a mod in my load order that is conflicting with the open mouth gag idle, and so testing without it removed that particular problem. But even with a minimalist setup the 4.3a version cannot recover the open mouth gag idle after a reset of facial expressions.

 

As a side note I observed that loading the game causes the expressions to reset, and thus loading the game might be the fastest way to test if there is a problem with the gag idle.

 

I also tested version 4.3 in isolation, and it did not have the aforementioned problem. So here are the two conclusions that I made from all of this:

 

1) The 4.3a update broke the gag idle resetting.

2) There is a mod in my load order that tries to override facial expressions, causing the gagged mouth to open/close periodically.

 

I can't do anything about 1), but I'll try to do some additional testing to discover the source of the problem in 2).

[swords and sandals]

As far as I can remember, when the current sexlab version first released, the devious devices gagged expression would flicker every few seconds during sexlab animations. It seemed that sexlab kept overriding the expression, and dd caught it quickly and put it back where it should be. That's the way it's always been ever since for me.

 

With the new dd update, it appears that dd no longer notices when something else overrides the expression, whether that's sexlab or anything else - such as opening the race menu - and so it never reopens the mouth as it used to.

 

That's a completely inexpert observation from someone who knows nothing about scripting, mind, and I've no idea if it might help find the solution, but that's how it looks to me.

[Mr Technician]

My eyes hurts from source code study. But here you have it - solution for the gag-mouth-bug in DDi 4.3a ... which will let your character mouth to open "even after" solo or Act. Already tested it - and it's working.

 

1. Go find official version, previous version DDi 4.3

2. locate inside 4.3 archive file which is named: zadGagEffect.pex

3. replace the same file with this one which is installed somewhere in your mod setup - in DDi 4.3a

 

PSC - are source codes to view in any text editor, you need to replace PEX - which is pre-compiled file

 

This was the reason why it happened:

 

Here you have it. Now you know it.

 

@donttouchmethere - can you test it on your mod setup ? ?

[MrsBelch]

33 minutes ago, piotsze said:

..

1. Go find official version, previous version DDi 4.3

2. locate inside 4.3 archive file which is named: zadGagEffect.pex

3. replace the same file with this one which is installed somewhere in your mod setup - in DDi 4.3a

...

My hero! You made my day! Thank you! ?

[donttouchmethere]

2 hours ago, piotsze said:

Here you have it. Now you know it.

Good thinking! ?

 

@Kimy and the DD-Team take their deserved rest atm, so it's really nice of you to jump in! ?️

 

Good idea also to use WinMerge for comparing the files , just discovered the little useful program for my chaos yesterday ?

 

I will try your solution ASAP! ?

Makes totally sense even from my clueless perspective ?

 

Still, I'm not completely convinced that they did it by accident o.o

[swords and sandals]

That worked for me, @piotsze

 

I took that script from DDi 4.3, made a quick fix mod out of it, and dropped it into MO to overwrite 4.3a until an official fix emerges. Gags are now back to normal again.

 

So, a big thanks from me! My lady dragonborn would probably like to thank you as well, but - given that gags are fully-functional again - all she can produce are a series of plaintive groans, gasps and gurgles, and you'd probably just think she was inviting you to have sex with her. A bit like everyone in Skyrim does...

[hfhkqidhs]

I have concluded my testing with the gag idle issues in an isolated environment, and found the culprit responsible for the issue in 2) of which I talked about in a previous post.

 

The mod Devious Body Alteration (v.1.0) is causing facial expressions to reset. With integration/expansion 4.3a this made the mouth close permanently, while with version 4.3 it causes a periodical cycle of the PC opening/closing her mouth. At this point in time I do not know why it does this, but it is certainly the mod responsible for this behavior.

 

[Zaflis]

1 hour ago, hfhkqidhs said:

The mod Devious Body Alteration (v.1.0) is causing facial expressions to reset.

Well spotted, i didn't do the script replacement discussed earlier but if i disable DBA while using DD 4.3a the bug is gone.

Unless something else triggers it later, only tried a little while. But that mod must have been the most notable cause.

[Mr Technician]

Becouse of new page of this thread. Uploading solution from previous page - which probably if would stay there - will nobody read. Sorry - i don't know if there is option to move my post.

 

"My eyes hurts from source code study. But here you have it - solution for the gag-mouth-bug in DDi 4.3a ... which will let your character mouth to open "even after" solo or Act. Already tested it - and it's working.

 

1. Go find official version, previous version DDi 4.3

2. locate inside 4.3 archive file which is named: zadGagEffect.pex

3. replace the same file with this one which is installed somewhere in your mod setup - in DDi 4.3a

 

PSC - are source codes to view in any text editor, you need to replace PEX - which is pre-compiled file

 

This was the reason why it happened:

Spoiler

 

Here you have it. Now you know it."

[Mr Technician]

On 9/13/2019 at 4:46 PM, donttouchmethere said:

...

Still, I'm not completely convinced that they did it by accident o.o

I don't think that broking the gag mouth effect was intentional. Probably might be the part of gag effect mentioned in changelog - which can have something more to that elsewhere in the mod code i didn't view. As it states in a changelog DDi:

But for the time being - i live it be and not going to dwell on this even more. Also some parts of code created for papyrus scripts are used in the Creation Kit - when the real deal happens in the mod. So only changing something in papyrus script - can not always lead to a final solution. I don't know even how to use CK (never did) - but i have read this in wiki about papyrus. And my game didn't explode. If you aske me - i still play with changed file. As for now - it plays fair and i didn't notice other "bugs" after reverting to older PEX file of the gag. Maybe i will, idk - time will tell.

[LazyBoot]

29 minutes ago, piotsze said:

I don't think that broking the gag mouth effect was intentional. Probably might be the part of gag effect mentioned in changelog - which can have something more to that elsewhere in the mod code i didn't view. As it states in a changelog DDi:

But for the time being - i live it be and not going to dwell on this even more. Also some parts of code created for papyrus scripts are used in the Creation Kit - when the real deal happens in the mod. So only changing something in papyrus script - can not always lead to a final solution. I don't know even how to use CK (never did) - but i have read this in wiki about papyrus. And my game didn't explode. If you aske me - i still play with changed file. As for now - it plays fair and i didn't notice other "bugs" after reverting to older PEX file of the gag. Maybe i will, idk - time will tell.

Someone also seems to have linked it to this mod
https://www.loverslab.com/topic/115745-devious-body-alteration/?do=findComment&comment=2749276

[Mr Technician]

1 hour ago, LazyBoot said:

Someone also seems to have linked it to this mod
https://www.loverslab.com/topic/115745-devious-body-alteration/?do=findComment&comment=2749276

Ok. But keep in mind that from the looks of that he and Zaflis are using Devious Body Alterations, while i don't use it in my mod setup. So i suppose it dont give me right to post there. If they have found a bug in DBA also - that's good they have posted there. But i have reposted my solution at right thread - on DDi thread today. But it started here, so it shall end here on DDx and begin on DDi thread. I needed to wait here at least 24 hours to see if people who tested my solution - will report anything strange back here. They didn't - so i posted it at DDi.

Feel free to inform DBA author about this what i have found. Maybe it will spare him some time on tracing bug that is non-existant in his work, or if it exists - he will make a patch, idk. As i said - i dont use DBA. Dont like the idea of something changing my bones in skeleton. ?

[swords and sandals]

I also don't use devious body alteration, but was still seeing gags not function properly with DDi 4.3a.

 

There might be a few mods - such as dba, apparently - that override the gagged expression, but the problem seems to be that devious devices doesn't reapply it once it's been broken, as it did with 4.3 and earlier versions. It happened to me with every sexlab animation, and when opening race menu.

[Mr Technician]

26 minutes ago, merManc said:

I also don't use devious body alteration, but was still seeing gags not function properly with DDi 4.3a.

There might be a few mods - such as dba, apparently - that override the gagged expression, but the problem seems to be that devious devices doesn't reapply it once it's been broken, as it did with 4.3 and earlier versions. It happened to me with every sexlab animation, and when opening race menu.

I have also posted my modlist. Those are plugins and mod folders i use at my configuration for the time being. So if anybody feel interested - can compare to his or her list. That would help a lot to shorten the circle of exploration which mod is doing this beside DBA. In my modlist i even put version numbers to mods. It's faster in bug tracking because esp files - don't tend to have version number in their file names.

 

EDIT: And to my knowledge - no mods from my modlist are giving me gag bugs. ?

 

EDIT2: Yes, but it would require to make some additional filtering for mouth expressions in sexlab to be aware of devious devices. I don't think that somebody have done that. And also - race menu is not compatible with gag also. I think it was never compatible with open mouth while in gags, reasons unknown to me. Armbinder works at race menu screen...