qalavix Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 If you just got here, here's what I was talking about Spoiler I'm currently playing Beyond Reach, and I have to cry out in pain; For the love of all gods, don't try to write any dialog or text that sounds 'fancy' unless you have someone else (several someone elses) read it for pure f___ing SENSE. Whoever wrote the dialog for Beyond Reach tried to be all pretentious and portentious and historical and eloquent and... failed, because they're using fancy words that are WRONG. They failed BADLY. They write good code or mod, but.... every time I see something that looks like a rather desperate and by-my-standards-barely-literate high school student trying to score essay points by using lots of words they got out of a thesaurus, I shriek in grammar-fascist rage. No, literally; my husband is not a grammar-fascist and he gets tired of me playing this mod because I keep yelping and then quoting the 'choice bits' at him. Gods only know what the neighbors think (I should probably shut the windows)... They're EVERYWHERE, too - loading screens, dialog, snippets of infodump, in-game books... *gags* So, please - either write plainly, or have others check it over and accept correction and edits.
Hex Bolt Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 *Downloads Beyond Reach* (found it for LE). I believe I must face this peril to see just how perilous it is!
Pliny The Elder Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 I doth concur. It is imperious to always use the proper grammar. It is very emersion-breaking when supposedly capable and intelligent characters use the words wrongly.
-Player1- Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 1 hour ago, qalavix said: I'm currently playing Beyond Reach, and I have to cry out in pain; For the love of all gods, don't try to write any dialog or text that sounds 'fancy' unless you have someone else (several someone elses) read it for pure f___ing SENSE. Whoever wrote the dialog for Beyond Reach tried to be all pretentious and portentious and historical and eloquent and... failed, because they're using fancy words that are WRONG. They failed BADLY. They write good code or mod, but.... every time I see something that looks like a rather desperate and by-my-standards-barely-literate high school student trying to score essay points by using lots of words they got out of a thesaurus, I shriek in grammar-fascist rage. No, literally; my husband is not a grammar-fascist and he gets tired of me playing this mod because I keep yelping and then quoting the 'choice bits' at him. Gods only know what the neighbors think (I should probably shut the windows)... They're EVERYWHERE, too - loading screens, dialog, snippets of infodump, in-game books... *gags* So, please - either write plainly, or have others check it over and accept correction and edits. Some of the bigger mods regarding quests and such - They are not written in english, nor developed with the english language in mind. A lot of sentences and phrases, in russian, for example, sound absolutely ridiculous in english. If you only try'n make the best out of translating it, well. By what you have described, mind you, this sounds totally like a you problem. If you'd put it differently, whole different story. But like that? How many languages do you speak? I, as a modder myself, try to speak/write/read in about 6 foreign languages. Like english, for example. Sometimes i do fail at 'consturcting' sentences, do fail with certain parts of grammar.. Yet only non-modders cry about it, if it happens, that is. Or people that only speak one language, mediocore at best, too. As long as you don't mod yourself, don't speak more than one language? I'm afraid you don't have a say in that. And Actually, yea, not even a opinion worth to be heard, if it turns out like.. Well, like that. You tried to complain, sounding 'fancy', sounding 'eloquent' - But all i see is someone that failed at it, kinda 'BADLY', actually. If even your hubby gets annoyed about it, you should stop. Just a hint. Especially when it gets you SO upset that you have to post the same thing twice, first as a comment and then even as separate Thread. Maybe you should stop to, how'd you put it? Ah, yeah: "trying to score essay points by using lots of words they got out of a thesaurus". But thank you very much for contributing to Loverslab with that thoughtful and also very much thought-through content.
MysticDaedra Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 I don't 100% agree with the OP, but I do think modders could try to get some proofreading for their work. Honestly, it's not even the non-English speakers that bother me... it's the folks who are English speakers, but still have terrible grammar. That being said, I'm going to offer to proofread and edit (if desired) any dialogue for any mod, if given in a text format. Feel free to send me a PM if you're a modder who feels like they could use an extra set of eyes on their work.
ElsissSurana Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 I'll just say this about Beyond Reach... The quality of one or two of the voice actors is god awful. Don't get me wrong, props to whom ever steps up to the plate but for the love of all that's good and holy please check the quality of your recordings!
Eadoo Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 2 hours ago, qalavix said: I'm currently playing Beyond Reach, and I have to cry out in pain; For the love of all gods, don't try to write any dialog or text that sounds 'fancy' unless you have someone else (several someone elses) read it for pure f___ing SENSE. Whoever wrote the dialog for Beyond Reach tried to be all pretentious and portentious and historical and eloquent and... failed, because they're using fancy words that are WRONG. They failed BADLY. They write good code or mod, but.... every time I see something that looks like a rather desperate and by-my-standards-barely-literate high school student trying to score essay points by using lots of words they got out of a thesaurus, I shriek in grammar-fascist rage. No, literally; my husband is not a grammar-fascist and he gets tired of me playing this mod because I keep yelping and then quoting the 'choice bits' at him. Gods only know what the neighbors think (I should probably shut the windows)... They're EVERYWHERE, too - loading screens, dialog, snippets of infodump, in-game books... *gags* So, please - either write plainly, or have others check it over and accept correction and edits. 45 minutes ago, ElsissSurana said: I'll just say this about Beyond Reach... The quality of one or two of the voice actors is god awful. Don't get me wrong, props to whom ever steps up to the plate but for the love of all that's good and holy please check the quality of your recordings! Is it at all weird that people feel it's appropriate to give this kind of "feedback" on something they downloaded from the Internet for free, that represents someone's hours of work largely motivated solely by love for the game? Having received this kind of "feedback" in the past on my own small project I can tell you it was sufficient to get me to take months off and spend my time doing other things. Can I ask a favor? For every time you feel compelled to post something like this, can I ask that you go to two different mod projects and post something encouraging for the mod developers?
CaptainJ03 Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 Agree to the OP. Good thing that mod is on SE, otherwise I would be tempted... I've played some mods where I cringe at every second sentence, but try to get along because it's obvious that the modder is no native speaker. Others I've plainly uninstalled because the wrong language was immersion breaking.
donttouchmethere Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 I'd like to annotate that @Pamatronic's long-winded but very concise analysis pretty much sums up the matter. ?
monsta88 Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 50 minutes ago, CaptainJ03 said: I've played some mods where I cringe at every second sentence, but try to get along because it's obvious that the modder is no native speaker. Others I've plainly uninstalled because the wrong language was immersion breaking. This can happen with games made by professionals as well. For example the X4 has a branching dialog system which sounds like when 2 secret agents meet and change code phrases. "I heard it is cold this time around in Toulon." - "The night sky is brighter in August." Of course it is not an actual example, but sounds like that. I also have some faint memories about a game where basically every time the characters said something, it was cringe-worthy. In Skyrim mods, I'm mostly OK if the writing is low quality, we can't expect all modders to be novelists. I'm more annoyed with missing punctuation marks, disregard for capital letters, l33t talk, etc. And there are of course the positive examples where the writer and/or voice actor knew what he/she was doing and the result is very good. For example Phillip the Horse, or Inigo. As for the OP, if you don't like it, don't play it. Or you can try to do a patch, it is very easy to update text.
Antiope_Apollonia Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 If community-made content isn't up to your standards, then step up and help make it better. Instead of yelling at your poor husband, take notes. If you've found genuine language problems, and not pedantic, prescriptivist pseudo-errors, then most mod authors will be happy to have the free editing, and they'll make the mod better with your help. And if you're just bitching about pedantic, prescriptivist pseudo-errors—which would be the assumption based on the tone of your post—then the mod author will get the satisfaction of telling you to fuck off. Either way, win–win. I do this all the time. As long as you're respectful in your feedback—you know, like the exact opposite of the tone of the original post—then it's usually quite well-received. Some mod authors are better writers than others, but even mod authors known for their brilliant writing like Hexbolt aren't above the occasional typo. Expecting mod authors who are brilliant visual artists and brilliant coders and brilliant whatever else to also be brilliant writers is asking a lot—be grateful for all the things they are brilliant at instead of worrying so much about the areas they're less so, especially when many of them are working in a foreign language.
Idyll Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 14 hours ago, qalavix said: Whoever wrote the dialog for Beyond Reach tried to be all pretentious and portentious and historical and eloquent and... failed, because they're using fancy words that are WRONG. They failed BADLY. They write good code or mod, but.... every time I see something that looks like a rather desperate and by-my-standards-barely-literate high school student trying to score essay points by using lots of words they got out of a thesaurus, I shriek in grammar-fascist rage. No, literally; my husband is not a grammar-fascist and he gets tired of me playing this mod because I keep yelping and then quoting the 'choice bits' at him. Gods only know what the neighbors think (I should probably shut the windows)... They're EVERYWHERE, too - loading screens, dialog, snippets of infodump, in-game books... *gags* So, please - either write plainly, or have others check it over and accept correction and edits. I haven't tried it but I admit to having such habits to react to whatever mistakes, poor word choices or even slight imperfections in writs translated or otherwise - I even have a swear jar filled to the brim, due to those instances...
qalavix Posted April 7, 2022 Author Posted April 7, 2022 I posted the name of the mod that's been bedeviling me most lately, because I guessed that if I didn't, half or more of the comments would be "So which mod are you complaining about?" 17 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: *Downloads Beyond Reach* (found it for LE). I believe I must face this peril to see just how perilous it is! No, it's too perilous! @HexBolt8: Look, it's my duty as a knight modder to sample as much peril as I can. @qalavix: No, we've got to find the Holy Grail last bug. Come on! @HexBolt8: Oh, let me have just a little bit of peril? @qalavix: No. It's unhealthy. @HexBolt8: I bet you're gay. @qalavix: No, I'm not. 15 hours ago, -Player1- said: A lot of sentences and phrases, in russian, for example, sound absolutely ridiculous in english. Okay - maybe I made an elephant out of a fly. Or not. This person is a non-Native English speaker, and I can understand most of their posts (example) and when I can't... I suck it up (there's an idiom...). What I complained about is not 'failure to speak English like a native'. It's subtle, but I don't think a non-native English speaker (NNES) would make the word choices I'm talking about. When I can copy examples, I'll post some. 16 hours ago, -Player1- said: As long as you don't mod yourself, don't speak more than one language? I'm afraid you don't have a say in that. And Actually, yea, not even a opinion worth to be heard, if it turns out like.. Well, like that. Courtier's Reply fallacy. I don't have to be a programmer or a speaker of another language to 'have a say' about poor use of a language I do speak & write. 15 hours ago, MysticDaedra said: I'm going to offer to proofread and edit (if desired) any dialogue for any mod, if given in a text format. Feel free to send me a PM if you're a modder who feels like they could use an extra set of eyes on their work. Good point. I'll do the same. I don't know how to edit mod-pieces (like ESPs) directly, but if anyone can point me to a tutorial, I'll be happy to make a proofing pass or two (in English) on any mod. I'll do the same for any instruction page, no tutorial required. 14 hours ago, Eadoo said: Can I ask a favor? For every time you feel compelled to post something like this, can I ask that you go to two different mod projects and post something encouraging for the mod developers? Also a good point. I shall. Lately I haven't been doing as much of that as I should. Please note that I am currently in the middle of Beyond Reach, and the rest of the mod is at least Bethesda quality if not better. I actually got scared in the dungeon I just finished, and it wasn't a jump scare either. I think that's a wonderful thing. 13 hours ago, Antiope_Apollonia said: [offering corrections to mod authors] As long as you're respectful in your feedback [...] then it's usually quite well-received. It's been my experience that most - certainly not all, but most - of the times I've tried this, it's been utterly wasted effort on my part; no acknowledgement, no change, no dialog with the mod author, nothing. Might as well piss up a rope (another idiom...). 11 hours ago, h minuano said: Haven't played that mod, can you post some examples to see if you're right or not? I'm trying to get examples, but I can't seem to screenshot loading screens (via Skyrim or via Windows either); and I can't scribble fast enough on paper to record those. 16 hours ago, -Player1- said: But thank you very much for contributing to Loverslab with that thoughtful and also very much thought-through content. Whoa! You left this big puddle of sarcasm on the floor; someone might slip in it and get hurt!
Antiope_Apollonia Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 23 minutes ago, qalavix said: It's been my experience that most - certainly not all, but most - of the times I've tried this, it's been utterly wasted effort on my part; no acknowledgement, no change, no dialog with the mod author, nothing. Might as well piss up a rope (another idiom...). Well, if this thread is any indication, it's probably because you're a pompous jackass. I wouldn't want you in my mod thread, either, if I were a mod creator.
Hex Bolt Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 27 minutes ago, qalavix said: It's been my experience that most - certainly not all, but most - of the times I've tried this, it's been utterly wasted effort on my part; no acknowledgement, no change, no dialog with the mod author, nothing. It's probably still worth trying. If the author is active, you might start by just asking if that sort of feedback is welcome. I've had mixed success. Sometimes my suggestion, even for something that's clearly misspelled and is easy to fix, is not acknowledged and never changes. But not always. There was an awkwardly worded message in Devious Devices. It bugged me for long enough that I politely suggested different wording, and in the next update it changed. Yay! Personally, I'm delighted when I get a report of something I mistyped. Someone else is doing my work for me! It will depend on the mod author. 39 minutes ago, qalavix said: What I complained about is not 'failure to speak English like a native'. I thought you made that clear, though some of the responses here seem to have completely misunderstood you. Pliny the Elder understood (third post). Non-native word use is one thing. I see that often; it's no big deal. If I were attempting to communicate in another language, I'd make similar mistakes (or worse). Sometimes I even see an unusual phrase and think to myself, "I should use that". But use of wrong words, ones that confuse and mislead because they don't make sense, is different. That's not a matter of style, it affects the reader's comprehension.
Hex Bolt Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 27 minutes ago, qalavix said: It's been my experience that most - certainly not all, but most - of the times I've tried this, it's been utterly wasted effort on my part; no acknowledgement, no change, no dialog with the mod author, nothing. It's probably still worth trying. If the author is active, you might start by just asking if that sort of feedback is welcome. I've had mixed success. Sometimes my suggestion, even for something that's clearly misspelled and is easy to fix, is not acknowledged and never changes. But not always. There was an awkwardly worded message in Devious Devices. It bugged me for long enough that I politely suggested different wording, and in the next update it changed. Yay! Personally, I'm delighted when I get a report of something I mistyped. Someone else is doing my work for me! It will depend on the mod author. 39 minutes ago, qalavix said: What I complained about is not 'failure to speak English like a native'. I thought you made that clear, though some of the responses here seem to have completely misunderstood you. Pliny the Elder understood (third post). Non-native word use is one thing. I see that often; it's no big deal. If I were attempting to communicate in another language, I'd make similar mistakes (or worse). Sometimes I even see an unusual phrase and think to myself, "I should use that". But use of wrong words, ones that confuse and mislead because they don't make sense, is different. That's not a matter of style, it affects the reader's comprehension.
-Player1- Posted April 7, 2022 Posted April 7, 2022 46 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said: I thought you made that clear, though some of the responses here seem to have completely misunderstood you. There was no misunderstanding. This.. Let's call it a 'Thread', is a prime example of why Loverslab is in dire need of a downvote function that, if enough bad reputation has been handed out, should lock automatically. Op goes on about that he reaches out to certain creators but they never react. I would totally put someone like that on ignore, on Nexus, for example, excluding the individual from all my creations hosted on the site. I've been contacting o' so many creators about misspelling and dirty edits and i always got a response. I've been porting, creating and fixing stuff for over 5 years on Nexus and never ever have i run into a creator that wasn't grateful for my help. But here's the difference. Someone that offers help in a friendly way - And a troll that is just out to cry and to annoy others that actually do more than to just criticize others.. Over no apparent reason, but to troll. The whole Thread is basically just MIMIMI. If the op would have invested HALF the time into opening the mod and fixing it.. But no, better open several threads and cry. Fixing dialog is rather easy and something even newbies can do without much effort. You can't take someone like that serious, don't be silly. Over and out, put this on ignore, i'm sorry, but i'm not going to waste my time with this even further. Have a good one tho, y'all.
Splendor Solis Posted April 8, 2022 Posted April 8, 2022 Reminds me of that orc in oblivion who lives in a nice house and tries (and fails) to talk like an aristocrat. Don't remember his named but I loved that guy.
qalavix Posted April 8, 2022 Author Posted April 8, 2022 15 hours ago, -Player1- said: If the op would have invested HALF the time into opening the mod and fixing it.. [...] Fixing dialog is rather easy and something even newbies can do without much effort. I'd love to. Can someone either explain how to do this, or point to a resource that explains how to do this?
qalavix Posted April 8, 2022 Author Posted April 8, 2022 11 hours ago, Splendor Soils said: Reminds me of that orc in oblivion who lives in a nice house and tries (and fails) to talk like an aristocrat. Don't remember his named but I loved that guy. It can be subtly (but very) humorous when done deliberately. Amongst friends, the phrase we used was "swave and de-boner". (for the non-native English speakers, it's a bad mis-pronunciation of "suave" and "debonair").
qalavix Posted April 8, 2022 Author Posted April 8, 2022 The screenshots you've all been waiting for! (by a very loose definition of 'all'...) I was in a dungeon before; not much dialog... and I still can't capture screenshots of loading screens. These are very small snippets of screenshots, taken out of context so as to not spoiler the mod. The problems with the words do not require further context. #1 One doesn't tear - remove with a connotation of violence and/or damage - things into containers. Fixing this could go several ways - "... tear those souls ... afterlife, OUT AND into ..." Or "... said that they can STEAL/REMOVE those souls, who've already established themselves in the afterlife, FROM THEIR REPOSE/REST/ETERNITY/AFTERLIFE AND INTO..." Estranged means " 1. To make hostile, unsympathetic, or indifferent; alienate: The months of bickering estranged her from her family. 2. To remove from an accustomed place or set of associations:" from The Free Dictionary How are bodies estranged, and from what, in this context? I can't guess what the author meant here - dead bodies without souls? Freshly made/conjured bodies? Bodies that have souls but these new souls are stuck in by the Bad Guys? Also, "... who covets said souls." I don't understand this, and it could go too many different directions. One correction would be to cut the last bit off, and just have "Defying the very laws of the gods." (and that's not a complete sentence; neither is the original, but that's not what I complained about ...) Another could be "Defying the very laws of the gods who CONTROL said souls." Or "... gods who HAVE DOMINION OVER said souls." #2 A barrier doesn't procure shelter; it IS shelter, or a defense, or a synonym. One could also use "... has GIVEN us shelter..." Minor grammar - Reach should be capitalized, as it's a proper place name. This minor grammar error is not what I was complaining about originally, but it doesn't help. #3 ".... barrier may cease, for..." just doesn't look right to my eye. My shit'll get jumped for saying this without 'proof', I suspect, but I'll stand by it. Better: "... barrier may DISAPPEAR..." "barrier may CEASE TO EXIST...." "... barrier may DISSIPATE..." "barrier may DISSOLVE..." Another minor: "The city cannot run the risk of BEING infected" or "The city cannot run the risk of THE (capital-I) Infected", one or the other should replace what's there now. These aren't mistakes that I'd expect a non-native English speaker to make (unless they have very high fluency in English - in which case, they should know better). Nor are these typos. Nor are they (the not-minor ones) the usual Internet grammar mistakes.
Tiress Posted April 8, 2022 Posted April 8, 2022 1 hour ago, qalavix said: I'd love to. Can someone either explain how to do this, or point to a resource that explains how to do this? I would start by getting familiar with xEdit first and then opening the Beyond Reach plugin file with it to see it's content. xEdit has pretty detailed documentation on how to use it. It might be easier to use ESP-ESM Translator instead. Even though it's meant for a different purpose, I imagine it could serve well in this case too.
pinky6225 Posted April 8, 2022 Posted April 8, 2022 14 minutes ago, qalavix said: The screenshots you've all been waiting for! (by a very loose definition of 'all'...) I was in a dungeon before; not much dialog... and I still can't capture screenshots of loading screens. These are very small snippets of screenshots, taken out of context so as to not spoiler the mod. The problems with the words do not require further context. #1 One doesn't tear - remove with a connotation of violence and/or damage - things into containers. Fixing this could go several ways - "... tear those souls ... afterlife, OUT AND into ..." Or "... said that they can STEAL/REMOVE those souls, who've already established themselves in the afterlife, FROM THEIR REPOSE/REST/ETERNITY/AFTERLIFE AND INTO..." Estranged means " 1. To make hostile, unsympathetic, or indifferent; alienate: The months of bickering estranged her from her family. 2. To remove from an accustomed place or set of associations:" from The Free Dictionary How are bodies estranged, and from what, in this context? I can't guess what the author meant here - dead bodies without souls? Freshly made/conjured bodies? Bodies that have souls but these new souls are stuck in by the Bad Guys? Also, "... who covets said souls." I don't understand this, and it could go too many different directions. One correction would be to cut the last bit off, and just have "Defying the very laws of the gods." (and that's not a complete sentence; neither is the original, but that's not what I complained about ...) Another could be "Defying the very laws of the gods who CONTROL said souls." Or "... gods who HAVE DOMINION OVER said souls." #2 A barrier doesn't procure shelter; it IS shelter, or a defense, or a synonym. One could also use "... has GIVEN us shelter..." Minor grammar - Reach should be capitalized, as it's a proper place name. This minor grammar error is not what I was complaining about originally, but it doesn't help. #3 ".... barrier may cease, for..." just doesn't look right to my eye. My shit'll get jumped for saying this without 'proof', I suspect, but I'll stand by it. Better: "... barrier may DISAPPEAR..." "barrier may CEASE TO EXIST...." "... barrier may DISSIPATE..." "barrier may DISSOLVE..." Another minor: "The city cannot run the risk of BEING infected" or "The city cannot run the risk of THE (capital-I) Infected", one or the other should replace what's there now. These aren't mistakes that I'd expect a non-native English speaker to make (unless they have very high fluency in English - in which case, they should know better). Nor are these typos. Nor are they (the not-minor ones) the usual Internet grammar mistakes. I've played Beyond Reach (bit dark but was interesting) and while yes some of the dialogue is a bit odd i think in all three examples your able to understand the gist of what the author is trying to convey "It's said that they can tear those souls, who've already established themselves in the afterlife, into estranged bodies here. Defying the very laws of the gods who covets said souls" I'd have said instead "It's said that they can tear those souls who've already reached the afterlife into host bodies, defying the very laws of the aedrea/deadrea that have judged there souls" (admittedly not 100% on the skyrim lore of where souls go and other than the dawnguard bit i don't think in skyrim itself its really explained greatly either) - Anyways gist here is they can take souls and do whatever they like with them "Yet this same barrier has procured us shelter against the plague that's left the reach stricken" - gist Barrier is protecting us, i'd have used protect instead of procured myself on that one "I fear the day that this barrier maye cease, for whatever reason. This city cannot run the risk of infected" - gist barrier going down is bad, infection rather than infected would prolly have worked better So yeah this sounds a bit nit picky to me and if it bugs you that much don't use the mod.
Fakenet Posted April 8, 2022 Posted April 8, 2022 Depends on context. The character who says this stuff could be a pretentious fool.
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