Hex Bolt Posted January 11, 2022 Author Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) Version 2.0.47 Do not update while the prostitution quest is running. Prostitution New: Prostitution has a new mode, selectable with the "Earnings Mode" setting. The original mode, based on number of clients, is the default. Earnings Mode sets a target for earnings from client payments, regardless of how many clients are serviced. When using Radiant Prostitution, this encourages accepting the more extreme and higher-paying sex acts. Or maybe your owner is more focused on gold. Whatever the reason, you DO have to obtain the gold through client payments (robbing a bank doesn't count). Just as with the number of clients, the total earnings target is lowered for towns: walled cities 100%, small towns 50%, hold capital towns 75% (see change below). New: Prostitution now has player response choices at the conclusion: Defiant, Unhappy, Accepting, and Thankful. - If you think of it as a progression, the attitudes are anger, denial, acceptance, and happiness. - A fifth response, "Okay", lets you just end the talk there (like it did before). New: Added a new player objection topic when the quest starts. I also tried to include a suitable variation for owners who don't want sex. Removed: Removed the "Suspend fashion rules while working" setting. It's now treated as always enabled. Changed: For determining prostitution goals, Dawnstar and Morthal are treated as small towns rather than hold capitals. - In Winterhold you can whore in the Mage College (existing functionality), so it's not considered a small town. Changed: Adjusted owner language to be somewhat less derogatory. Changed: Previously, gold sharing would be suspended during prostitution if Radiant Prostitution was enabled, to permit players to collect full payments since RP expects the player to have the full amount in inventory before deducting the madame's cut. However, if players did any trading during prostitution, the owner would not receive anything from gold sharing. Now, gold sharing is NOT suspended, and the mod corrects for any gold sharing when the player receives payment from a client. If you want your owner to receive more (or all) of the gold, set the madame cut high and use your owner as your madame/pimp. - Basic prostitution is unchanged. With gold sharing enabled, your owner gets the "Owner's cut" amount off the top, AND will take a share of the gold you receive. If you use gold sharing and don't want to be taxed twice, set the owner's cut from prostitution to zero. ----- New: A new setting, "Owner prefers sex with playmate", is the chance that when you ask your owner for sex, the owner will instead have sex with your playmate. - Has no effect on asking for 3-way sex. - Even if the owner chooses the playmate, you still get credit for offering sex. Changed: "Time to Relax" trigger conditions are now checked every 20 seconds, rather than upon location change. - This eliminates situations where you become burdened, remove the extra weight, then quickly change location and the owner thinks you're still overburdened. - When you reach town and unload, the mod might be slow to notice. Talk to your owner a second time to update the weight change. Changed: Minor enhancements to dancing. - If you dance for your owner, the owner will now comment twice, if the dance isn't too short. - If you dance for an NPC for "I Am Famous": - The NPC will comment once, and the owner will comment once. - The NPC should no longer be able to wander away. - The quest time won't expire (resulting in failure) while you're dancing. Changed: Changes to public humiliation (which is configured with "Public humiliation level" MCM setting). - When you do something humiliating with one person, such as saying a confession, the mod now determines that person's reaction (favorable or unfavorable), modified by relationship rank and your past interactions, and remembers this attitude. It is sometimes used to choose between positive or negative comments. - The speech debuff for humiliation used to expire fairly quickly. It now lasts twice as long. - A few events, such as the naked walk through Whiterun, now add an extra level of humiliation. - An extra-humiliating event can push the debuff one level higher than the maximum MCM setting. - Choosing the seductive dance option for "I Am Famous" gives one *less* level of humiliation, you dancing fool. - Sleeping or waiting at least 4 hours at one time removes all humiliation. Yes, that can be exploited. Changed: For the home beating event, the owner will notice if you always select the same item to use on you. - Since you like it so much, the owner will swat you a few extra times. - If you like one item a lot, there's a small chance that you might be required to choose something different. Changed: Reactions to "Confessions of a Slave" can be positive if the NPC views your status as a slave favorably. Changed: For "I Am Famous", if you choose boot licking, the NPC might insist that you do it naked. Changed: Player now kneels when receiving a certain tag for a certain quest. Changed: Wording for enslavement initiated by a follower or hireling no longer assumes that you have the Lola book. Edited January 11, 2022 by HexBolt8 12
Petardo8 Posted January 11, 2022 Posted January 11, 2022 As always, another great update, thanks for your work.
SquishyG Posted January 11, 2022 Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) I'm truly amazed by your work and effort! Thanks for everything you're doing, i'm having a blast! i've been playing the mod for a week now and everything is working flawlessly except one thing that was mentioned back on page 3-5 of this thread. If you can find a minute to help me, I get no animation for the punishments. My character gets in whipping motion, but the owner just stands there, not even equiping the cane. 3-4 seconds later, she recieves the buff and my char staggers. I looked at the ::IdeDef_var it shows zbfIdleForceReset as expected. I tried to remove her weapon, changing it. I'm using ZAZ 8 / edit: I just realized I had zap 8 helper addon + No collision furnitures No idea if those are compatible, it's just a mess Also, i'm using the extended mod, could it be interfering in some way? Edited January 11, 2022 by squishygaufrette
Hex Bolt Posted January 11, 2022 Author Posted January 11, 2022 11 minutes ago, squishygaufrette said: I get no animation for the punishments. My character gets in whipping motion, but the mistress just stands there, not even equiping the cane. As noted on the mod page, Ultimate Combat breaks whipping. It's very possible that other combat mods could be incompatible too. If you can't find a cause there, try a new game with a minimal mod list. By minimal, I mean no follower framework or anything not actually necessary. An alternate start mod is reasonable to get you started quickly, and obviously you need this mod's requirements, but leave out overhaul mods and everything else. Create a vanilla race character. Recruit a follower (not one with special AI like Inigo), get enslaved by this mod, enter "set vkjtest to 1" in the console, then talk to your owner and say "I want to test something", then ask for a whipping. It really should work. If so, you can gradually add mods back in until you find the problem. If you find one, please report that here so I can list the mod as problematic in the Compatibility section. 1
SquishyG Posted January 11, 2022 Posted January 11, 2022 40 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said: As noted on the mod page, Ultimate Combat breaks whipping. It's very possible that other combat mods could be incompatible too. If you can't find a cause there, try a new game with a minimal mod list. By minimal, I mean no follower framework or anything not actually necessary. An alternate start mod is reasonable to get you started quickly, and obviously you need this mod's requirements, but leave out overhaul mods and everything else. Create a vanilla race character. Recruit a follower (not one with special AI like Inigo), get enslaved by this mod, enter "set vkjtest to 1" in the console, then talk to your owner and say "I want to test something", then ask for a whipping. It really should work. If so, you can gradually add mods back in until you find the problem. If you find one, please report that here so I can list the mod as problematic in the Compatibility section. I tried removing Pretty combat animations, reinstalled ZAP and still nothing. The only follower framework i'm using is EFF (that's the one you're using, I believe?) Starting fresh would probably work but a bit overkill for me. I'll just go without the animation for now. I'll try to clean up the mess and report back if I find anything. Thanks a lot for your time
Hex Bolt Posted January 11, 2022 Author Posted January 11, 2022 13 minutes ago, squishygaufrette said: The only follower framework i'm using is EFF (that's the one you're using, I believe?) No, I'm using NFF (Nethers), but the whipping animation problem is uncommon, so if anything it might be a specific setting with a combat mod or follower framework, particularly anything with respect to a follower's use of weapons. (NFF's setting to have followers keep weapons unequipped outside combat caused problems until I built a workaround into this mod.) 16 minutes ago, squishygaufrette said: Starting fresh would probably work but a bit overkill for me. That was just a suggestion to find the cause (not to start a new game to actually play), but yes, it's an undertaking to do all that.
Anunya Posted January 12, 2022 Posted January 12, 2022 9 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: Ouch, that hurts. There's nothing quite so demoralizing as losing one's work. Your responses tend to have some good insights, so it's a loss all around. Sometimes I'll split longer responses into parts, and I'm in the habit of copying everything to clipboard before pressing the submit button. Looking forward to seeing the new project 2
Hex Bolt Posted January 12, 2022 Author Posted January 12, 2022 40 minutes ago, Anunya said: Looking forward to seeing the new project Thanks. It's a niche mod that I don't think it will interest many people, but it's something I've wanted for a while now so I'm building it for myself. If anyone else uses it that's a bonus. The trouble has been that I wanted the new toy but I didn't want to have to put in the time and effort. Now that I've started and it's shaping up, I can't really quit. 2
Anunya Posted January 12, 2022 Posted January 12, 2022 Heya @HexBolt8 - I'm in the process of doing a play through of Wartimes' Daughter for the first time (which may well go to subLola). You're probably familiar with it, but if you're not it has a few elements that may be worth considering for SubLola. Wartimes has several nice submissive posses (on hands and knees with ass in the air, arms behind back, arms behind head) which would work very well in any subLola context (assuming you'd be allowed to use them in SubLola, of course). One idea for how they could be used would be to have Lola's owner expect her to use a certain pose when speaking to them (getting the right pose could be a memory game, a guessing game, or something else - and could or could not be subject to change). The submission score reward or penalty could be adjusted to reflect whether Lola uses the right posture. At higher levels of submission, Lola's owner could require her to use the right pose when speaking to any NPC under particular conditions/ for period of time. When getting whipped, the master could tell Lola to "assume the position" (if she doesn't, maybe the owner will just whip her again or maybe there are score penalties). What I like about these ideas is that they require the player to take action to submit, which is nicely immersive I think... but whether you like the ideas or not, I wanted to draw your attention to the poses which I think would be a great addition to SubLola however they may be used. 1
Anunya Posted January 12, 2022 Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, HexBolt8 said: Thanks. It's a niche mod that I don't think it will interest many people, but it's something I've wanted for a while now so I'm building it for myself. If anyone else uses it that's a bonus. The trouble has been that I wanted the new toy but I didn't want to have to put in the time and effort. Now that I've started and it's shaping up, I can't really quit. That's the thing with niches... if it's not your niche, you won't care... and given it's a niche, that'll be most people. But if IS your niche it's super engaging Edited January 12, 2022 by Anunya
Anunya Posted January 12, 2022 Posted January 12, 2022 Another question for you - purely hypothetical at this point... If someone wanted to write a quest that involved putting the PC into a SubLola relationship, how easy or difficult do you think that would be?
Hex Bolt Posted January 12, 2022 Author Posted January 12, 2022 24 minutes ago, Anunya said: I wanted to draw your attention to the poses which I think would be a great addition to SubLola however they may be used. That mod doesn't provide its own poses. They're probably from one of the several required mods that I don't have. I'm reasonably sure that I've already found the ones in ZAP and DD that might be useful. 15 minutes ago, Anunya said: If someone wanted to write a quest that involved putting the PC into a SubLola relationship, how easy or difficult do you think that would be? It would have to go through the collaring process while Strong Hand is running. The follower approach is an example. 1
The Zen Posted January 12, 2022 Posted January 12, 2022 Not sure if this was asked before, though a search in the thread didn't return anything. Are there any plans to add crawling? While I run SD alongside it and use the crawling post, it would be nice to see it incorporated, IMO. Perhaps an event every now-and-then or even a 'crawl above this score' toggle?
Hex Bolt Posted January 12, 2022 Author Posted January 12, 2022 12 minutes ago, The Zen said: Are there any plans to add crawling? That has potential, but I shy away from anything that can conflict with other mods. Mods that add player-initiated crawling (that is, not through a fixed effect like a collar that forces crawling) are likely tracking the crawling state by key press -- press a key and you crawl, press it again and you stand. If this mod were to add crawling, those other mods wouldn't notice. Conceivably, you could be punished for not crawling even though you are. When I think about the implications of something like this, I tend to decide that something else like improving prostitution is better to work on. 1
u7ndertow Posted January 12, 2022 Posted January 12, 2022 @HexBolt8 The new naked walk in whiterun quest is great. Is there any way to have your master/mistress whip you if you don't stay close and walk behind your owner? Also, is there anything in works for the threats about how the slave "will lick their feet clean later". Or was that threat removed in one of your updates?
Hex Bolt Posted January 12, 2022 Author Posted January 12, 2022 18 minutes ago, u7ndertow said: Is there any way to have your master/mistress whip you if you don't stay close and walk behind your owner? That would interrupt the walk, and I'd rather keep the flow simple. I suppose there's room to add punishment at the end if you failed to stay close. 24 minutes ago, u7ndertow said: Also, is there anything in works for the threats about how the slave "will lick their feet clean later". Or was that threat removed in one of your updates? I always regarded that as an idle threat, just like talk of selling you to the jarl, but it bothered some people so I removed that comment.
Grumbrum Posted January 12, 2022 Posted January 12, 2022 I guess if the dialogues have been modified significantly I will have to wait until executaball updates his voicepack. So sad!
Hex Bolt Posted January 12, 2022 Author Posted January 12, 2022 6 minutes ago, Grumbrum said: I guess if the dialogues have been modified significantly I will have to wait until executaball updates his voicepack. Dialog is always changing. New lines are added, some lines are removed, and existing lines are modified. 2
SkyAddiction Posted January 12, 2022 Posted January 12, 2022 17 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: That mod doesn't provide its own poses. They're probably from one of the several required mods that I don't have. I'm reasonably sure that I've already found the ones in ZAP and DD that might be useful. It would have to go through the collaring process while Strong Hand is running. The follower approach is an example. If you're looking for poses, Gunslicer's mod has several hundred. Some even qualify as dancing. Check them out when you get a chance - you might find something useful or get some ideas. 1
The Zen Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 19 hours ago, HexBolt8 said: That has potential, but I shy away from anything that can conflict with other mods. Mods that add player-initiated crawling (that is, not through a fixed effect like a collar that forces crawling) are likely tracking the crawling state by key press -- press a key and you crawl, press it again and you stand. If this mod were to add crawling, those other mods wouldn't notice. Conceivably, you could be punished for not crawling even though you are. When I think about the implications of something like this, I tend to decide that something else like improving prostitution is better to work on. Good to know. Still, a shame that there are no plans for it.
Antiope_Apollonia Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) On 1/7/2022 at 4:02 PM, HexBolt8 said: Follower frameworks let the player vary the following distance a lot. The mod checks whether the follower has been made to wait, so the assumption is that otherwise the distance is within beckoning range. It's not standard following range that's motivating the suggestion. It's the limitations of Skyrim's pathing and follower behaviour, along the exact same logic as adding the elevation check. It has never been a triumph of immersion to have your followers take a half kilometre detour any time you drop down a one metre ledge. But you can mostly ignore that behaviour in game typically—unless one of those followers is Mistress, and at the vertex of her detour path, she decides to beckon Lola. Then you're forced to scramble to figure out what bizarre pathing the game sent them on to bypass their inability to traverse even minor changes in elevation, and your attention is quite unimmersively focused on game mechanics instead of the game itself. You could set the limit quite generously to account for the full range of "normal" follower behaviour; I just think you should really want to prevent compounding the already unimmersive limitations of Skyrim follower pathing by having Mistress draw unnecessary attention to them. On 1/7/2022 at 4:02 PM, HexBolt8 said: I really haven't looked through what's in there. It's worth taking a look. It's all really rough—probably alpha state—but there are some excellent assets and ideas in there. On 1/7/2022 at 4:02 PM, HexBolt8 said: If I were to add voluntary tattooing, I'd just rely on SlaveTats's "working" notification to indicate the passage of time (as SLUTS does), or possibly a fade to black. For sleeping permission, you'd just click the bed and sleep normally after asking permission, so I won't need an animation. Honestly, both of those implementations would completely miss the point of my proposals. Maybe other people would find them valuable additions, but I wouldn't have much interest in either of these as described. The whole point of the branding event is the event—which I think could be really powerful—but I don't really care that much one way or the other about Lola actually having the brand. As I mentioned, you could even make SlaveTats itself optional—other mods do this—and allow people to experience the event without it, just not receiving the visible brand. And if Lola still ends up sleeping in Mistress's bed like she owns the place, then you've failed to solve the core motivation for that idea, too. I think it'd be worth your time to take a look at the sleep events in the Extension and then revisit my original comments on the topic. Spoiler On 12/21/2021 at 10:06 AM, Antiope_Apollonia said: I use the SLTR Extension, which doesn't appear to be under any ongoing development, unfortunately, basically exclusively for the inn events. Even in their current form in the Extension, they at least resolve an important continuity issue with the vanilla game for my RP assumptions, and the sleeping animation is adorable, but there's a ton of room for improvement if you were ever to think about building something like this into the main mod. And I do think it'd be a great addition to the main mod; unlike most of the events in the Extension, this one isn't very intrusive—you can just push the sleep key and it's over as quickly as you like (i.e., it fits well within your comment in the Extension thread)—and it addresses a gameplay element that's quite unimmersive in the context of SLTR otherwise. One problem with the Extension version is that it's overly scripted. This seems to plague a lot of the Extension from what I've seen. Scripting the PC's movement just causes all sorts of trouble. When Mistress needs to lead you somewhere, implementing it like you've done with the "Whiterun Walk" event works infinitely better. e.g., I spent about 10 minutes stuck in a scripted walking animation trying to get down the stairs in the Bee and Barb with a couple of PAHE slaves in the way. The other [big] thing is just a lack of configurability. The sleep event has two versions to my knowledge, and as far as I can tell from a little save/reload experimentation, they're just random. I like both events, but it's weird having both with equal status. With my RP assumptions, I'd like to see Antiope (almost/) always sleep at the foot of the bed at high submission and (almost/) always sleep in bondage at low submission, but I'm guessing some people would prefer the reverse, while others would prefer to always favour one or the other at any score. To that end, it'd be great to have two MCM sliders, 0%–100%, for the chance to be bound for sleeping at 0 submission and the chance at 100 submission. A more minor opportunity for improvement would be more diversity in the bondage options. As far as I can tell, the Extension has only one device/animation, and it's spawned for use rather than being persistent in the world. I'd suggest that the most awesome implementation would be to have the devices permanently placed in discrete locations in each inn (basement if available, otherwise a back room or behind the bar or the like), and to place different devices in different inns to increase the flavour. Personally, I'd be a big fan of having cages in some locales. [Correction: I've since discovered that there are more than one possibility here—I've found three—but there's still a lot of room for improvement.] Optional Display Model integration would be a huge bonus here—they're the best bondage furniture around by far—but I understand that'd be quite a bit more work. Another minor issue is that triggering it by trying to sleep in the bed isn't really ideal. Having that as an option is fine, but it's weird that it's impossible for Antiope to learn her lesson that beds are for Mistress and instead initiate it perhaps by asking Mistress if she's ready for bed. Maybe going for the bed yourself should incur a small score penalty, and putting Mistress first should give you a small score increase. Bonus opportunity for Mistress to decide to give you one last task—e.g., get her nightcap or bedtime snack—while she sits on the side of the bed and waits, or maybe sex before bed. If you're interested in taking this on, and there's anything I can do to help—delegating grunt work or whatever—please don't hesitate to ask! Also note: I think I may have found equivalent animations in ZAP for sleeping, but something is wrong with my ZAP at the minute, and I can't test it. Spoiler ZazSleepingLeftSideMulti ZazSleepingLeftSide_Enter ZazSleepingLeftSide_Exit ZazSleepingLeftSide_Loop ZazSleepingLeftSide_Loop2 ZazSleepingRightSideMulti ZazSleepingRightSide_Enter ZazSleepingRightSide_Exit ZazSleepingRightSide_Loop ZazSleepingRightSide_Loop2 And while I'm at it, regarding the branding event idea, I also found these: ZazBrandingAnvilExecutioneer ZazBrandingAnvilHelper ZazBrandingAnvilSlave It looks like maybe the Extension just pilfered these assets? I can't tell. I'll investigate once I figure out what the hell is wrong with my ZAP. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: I've never seen this, though I'm on NFF 2.7.6, which is a year old. By the way, I see that NFF returned to Nexus back in September (a copy is still here on LL). This mod simply issues the vanilla follower wait command: SetAv("WaitingForPlayer", 1). That should not cause the follower to be dismissed. Are you having any problem when you order the follower to wait? Anyway, I don't think there's anything that I can do. I almost never use follower wait commands. Aside from the fact that it isn't really Lola's place to be ordering Mistress around, I just don't see many uses for the feature aside from once in a great while when I need to test something. But when I get these failures, they happen really quickly—mere seconds after starting the quest. And I get a unique failure condition from SLTR that I've never seen otherwise: "Failed: Don't make your mistress run with you." On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: It's possible, but I'm not eager to do it. The prancing effect is on one set of cuffs, so there are two sets. I'd have to create the colors for both sets. I might be able to reuse some existing DD assets, but it doesn't have pink and probably not blue. I'll put it on the list. Why not put the effect on the amulet? That way it's colour-neutral, and you have one item that appears in every outfit. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: This mod tries to play nice with other mods. However, if the owner's force greeting succeeds but is immediately interrupted by someone else's force greeting, then it looks to this mod as if you deliberately broke out of the conversation. Unfortunately, some mods don't consider that you might already be talking, and they let their force greeting interrupt -- or the timing upon switching cells makes that impossible. I don't know how to prevent that. Just to be clear, this problem has not come up with other mods. It is all vanilla quests that have caused issues. The most obvious example is "The Forsworn Conspiracy" quest line in Markarth, which includes several different force greetings on changing cells. The most egregious is when Nepos's thug stops you after leaving the Warrens, as then you have to fight him, too. I'd think there should be a relatively simple path to preventing this issue by just delaying when Mistress can force greet Lola after changing cells by a few seconds so that other quests have the chance to "go first", then the other safeguards you've already built will take over. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: Okay, the wording is "As you wish, [Title]. Thank you!" I like it! On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: Masturbation shouldn't be a satisfying outlet for Lola. I don't disagree, but I don't feel like that's adequately communicated by the existing dialogue. Especially given the context of Mistress's comments about putting on a show and such, the simple "If I must..." doesn't really convey anything other than vague reluctance. That's why I mentioned the idea of extending the existing dialogue to depict Lola feeling dejected that Mistress doesn't want to use her. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: Since this is NPC speech, I can't use text substitution for pronouns, so I chose this wording to avoid having to create two topics for his and hers. Not trying to be impertinent here—I'm genuinely curious. Why is avoiding creating two topics here an important consideration? Isn't it quite simple after creating one to just copy it and change the one word? And wouldn't the number of dialogue topics have negligible impact on the size and performance of the mod? I understand that, all else being equal, simpler is better, but I wouldn't say this is a case where all else is equal. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: The owner is never going to give you much satisfaction in this area. Well, there are other possible responses that are plenty satisfying. Some of the different responses to the "I love you, Mistress" dialogue really have markedly contradictory valences. Some are quite positive, some are positive-ish if a little condescending, and then there are two about how Lola must be crazy or brain damaged to love her Mistress. If these were tied to score progression, so you got the negative responses at lower scores, I think it'd make sense—reasoning to the effect of "Already? But Lola isn't trained yet!"—but at high scores, they just feel like Mistress is lashing out capriciously in a way that's inconsistent with a lot of her other behaviour. Mistress wants Lola to be loyal and devoted, yet when Lola professes her devotion, she's told she's crazy? How does that help her training? On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: If it hurts your feelings, you'll stop saying useless things. That's inconsistent with the signifiers in the mod's behaviour. Telling Mistress you love her generates positive score, so the mod doesn't treat it as a useless thing to say. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: If you're feeling frustrated, you'll try harder -- and your efforts can never be quite good enough. That's why the mildly condescending responses where Mistress acknowledges Lola's love positively, but doesn't return it in kind are perfectly fitting. But being told you must be crazy for trying so hard would be counterproductive to Mistress's goals. It's just hurtful for no benefit. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: It's intended for just that situation. Lola can even say "But I don't like doing it with men!". Well, in my game, Lola never does do it with men—she always meets her prostitution quota with the local women. (Having Full Random NPC Pack increasing the proportion of female guards helps with this for times when the unique ladies aren't in the mood.) So it's basically unusable in that case. But the specific notion of an alternative version of this setting isn't the main point, so I'll return to the broader idea below. Upon reflection, this wasn't really the best example for me to have chosen, but regardless, it was mostly just meant as an entrée into the broader idea of a humiliation fetish toggle, anyway. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: If the main purpose is not gold or humiliation, this suggests that Mistress is inadequate as a sex partner for Lola. I would argue that you've omitted a major possibility here: practice / training. For me, the prostitution event is all about serving Mistress's interests, whether that's becoming a better slave, earning her gold, or enhancing her reputation by showcasing what a good slave she has. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: That might be due to burnout on my part as I struggled to produce interesting and varied confessions. "Confessions of a Slave" is both one of my favourite and one of my least favourite events in SLTR. I quite like the concept, but I don't always like the way it's framed, and I really like some of the confessions, but I really dislike others. I think one way to put it might actually be that the confessions are too varied—some of them seem to convey one roleplaying assumption whilst others convey another. After thinking more about it, I think that, if you do decide you're up to the challenge of trying to build a configurable "humiliation fetish" toggle, this would be a better place to start than prostitution. You wouldn't necessarily even need to do much if any writing for a first pass on this feature—just figuring out a flagging system to sort the existing dialogue by being positive or negative for humiliation fetish content and include/exclude it accordingly would be a solid starting point, and if the mechanics prove not to be problematic, then it could be gradually built up and extended into other systems from there. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: Humiliation is central to what this mod does. Most (though not all) events involve some degree of humiliation. I think it's possible that part of what might be going on in this discussion is equivocation on "humiliation"—on the one hand, in the more literal sense of simply making Lola feel humility, analogous to "humbling Lola" such as toward the end of making her properly submissive; and on the other hand, in the way the term is more commonly used nowadays as a closer synonym to embarrassment and degradation. So, to avoid equivocation and confusion, I will henceforth refrain from using the term "humiliation" and confine myself to less ambiguous terminology aside from continuing to refer to the proposed feature as a "humiliation fetish toggle." I would agree that the former sense is indeed central to the mod's core functionality, but it isn't what I was referring to. The latter sense is what I had in mind, and although it shows up sprinkled throughout the mod, it manifests almost exclusively superficially in the wording of individual dialogues and the framing of individual events. As I suggested above, if you decide to take on the challenge of implementing a humiliation fetish toggle, it certainly isn't something you'd need to roll out all at once. But you could do heroic work to this end without changing any events, just by creating alternative dialogues for certain things. (If you wanted to share your working documents with me so I can see all the dialogue in an organised manner, I'd be more than happy to help with putting in the work on cranking out the writing...) (Disclaimer: I'm going to speak assertively about how Lola "is" or "isn't" or whatever for a bit. Please understand this as just shorthand for, "I personally roleplay Lola as (not) being suchandsuch." It would simply get really tedious to clarify every time. Of course other people may roleplay Lola differently, and I don't mean to imply that such perspectives are wrong or otherwise any less valid.) On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: This is justified by the owner's stated belief that Lola secretly wants to be humiliated. If that's not true, and Lola loves being paraded through town naked -- not because she likes feeling naughty, not because she enjoys having her devotion tested -- none of this works. If she likes being on public display and would do it on her accord, then forcing it is meaningless. I'd argue that, if Lola likes "feeling naughty," then that would be what cheapens the submission of doing of naughty things. It's much more submissive if Lola has no fetish for naughtiness, dirtiness, or degradation, but she subjects herself to these things anyway—perhaps at first just to avoid Mistress's whip, but by the end if not from the outset, simply out of a desire to serve Mistress well. If Lola has no desire for sex with anyone but Mistress, but she whores herself anyway because Mistress commands it, that is surely more submissive than Lola being a massive slut desperate to go down on every pretty face she sees. It's not that Lola would be parading about town naked by herself if she were free; it's that, through her training, Lola has learnt to love being paraded about town precisely because it's Mistress that's parading her. Surely it's more submissive for Lola to parade to the Bannered Mare because she wants to make Mistress proud than for her to do so because she's a naughty girl who gets off on exhibitionism. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: Lola becomes a slave. That's supposed to be humiliating. Maybe—this might be a case of that equivocation. I don't see any reason it has to be degrading. I don't see any intrinsic link between becoming a slave and being a naughty, dirty slut. For sure there's a lot of overlap between people who are interested in one and who are interested in the other, but it's definitely not a one-to-one mapping. I have no idea how to speculate how big each part of the Venn diagram would be, but speaking strictly for myself, I find the submission, obedience, and slavery circle very interesting, and the dirty, naughty, slutty circle very offputting. I love SLTR, because most of it caters to the former, but in the times when it emphasises the latter, it's always a big turn off for me. To reiterate, I know it would be a lot more work than toggling foot fetish or scat fetish content, but I do expect I'm not alone in that my experience of SLTR would be significantly enhanced if I could disable the humiliation fetish content as well. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: Implicit in the premise is that Lola gets far more than she expected when she accepts a collar. The 100 score event is the culmination of Lola's training, when she accepts her collar and slave status. That's supposed to be at the end of a long road. If she's proud to be a collared slave and loving every minute from day one, there's no journey. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean you're good at it from the start. Lola may or may not want to be a good pet from the outset, but regardless, she isn't. She has to learn. She needs Mistress's strong hand to guide her and show her how. In the beginning, she may often fail to satisfy Mistress. She may need to be punished for her failures, and she derives no secret naughty pleasure from this punishment—it really hurts!—but she understands that she has to learn to do better next time. She wants to be a good pet and to make Mistress proud of her, but it's hard, and there may be times when she's on the verge of giving up. But through hard work and perseverance, thanks to Mistress's skilful training, Lola does improve with time and practice. Eventually, their hard work pays off. It wasn't "fun", but it has been satisfying—like any difficult undertaking well done—and satisfaction is a much more durable emotion than pleasure. In the end, Lola is able to live a satisfying life of devoted service to Mistress, and she's able to feel pride at having worked hard to become a good pet that Mistress deems worthy to show off to others. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: The owner is constantly pushing Lola beyond the limits of what she's comfortable with. If we remove anything with humiliation, that's a pretty tame experience. It's just sex games with bondage gear and a few toys. I suppose Lola could be made to wear a butt plug that's too large to be comfortable, but that's not very interesting. Just to be clear here, I'm not proposing that any events would be disabled or replaced. Just that some of them would be re-framed. I don't know if there are things I've never seen because I keep foot & scat fetish content disabled, but aside from that, the only events I'm not really fond of are "Fashion Slave" and "Lights Out"—and neither of those for any reasons having anything to do with this discussion. Basically all of SLTR's content is wholly compatible with the RP framing that I'm advocating, but some of the individual dialogues involved force the player to frame the events in a different light that I find anti-appealing. A great, simple example of this would be "I Am Famous". I don't have the exact dialogues in front of me, but I should be close enough to get the idea. Currently, Mistress says that "... people don't really know just what a slut you are, so you're going to show them." That's a fairly degrading framing for this event that people into humiliation fetish content will doubtless like, and the rest of us will not. A simple alternative framing for people who'd disable a humiliation fetish toggle could be, "... people don't know just what a well-trained pet I own, so you're going to show them." That little change would have a significant impact on my enjoyment of this event; currently, I try to just retcon it in my head as I go, but that's definitely not the most immersive approach. (Also, unrelated to humiliation, as I was thinking about this, it occurred to me that it's strange seeing either framing of this event before quite high scores. Perhaps we also need a third version that frames this event as Lola needing to practise sex, but Mistress claiming that Lola isn't skilled enough yet to be worth paying for, so she's sent to offer herself for free in the interest of practice. e.g., "My Mistress would like to offer you free use of her sex slave to further my training. Would you allow me to practise my Dibellan arts with you?" The recipient would also be correspondingly less enthusiastic than in the current incarnation. A bonus expansion idea could be for the quest target to give Lola a "report card" after the sex, which she then has to return to Mistress for further praise or punishment.) Well, actually, there is one event that I'd change slightly more substantially, but it'd still be a small change, and it has as much to do with foot fetish as humiliation fetish. I'm really grateful for the consideration to include the "(Pretend to lick)" option for cleaning Mistress's boots in palaces as an alternative to actually licking, but this still frames the event in terms of degradation instead of obedient service—indeed, pretending to lick isn't actually productive service at all. This event would shift from something I slightly groan at and/or try to real-time retcon, however, to something I really enjoy if we had the option for Lola to shine Mistress's shoes with her hands instead. All we'd need is a crouching animation, and there's definitely a close to perfect one available. I couldn't find exactly which one with just SSEEdit, but if you look at Home Sweet Home in the CK, I guess you should be able to find it through the dialogue "Pose for me, pretty!" → "Get down"—it looks like it's called in a script, though. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: I don't want to spoil anyone's fantasy or preferred role play, but I think the humiliation aspect is what makes the content interesting. For me, it's the relationship between Lola and Mistress that makes the content interesting. And the less time Mistress spends telling Lola how dirty, naughty, and slutty she is, the more interesting that relationship is. On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: Probably the #1 criticized feature is sweeping. It's submissive, but it's boring. It's not humiliating. I kind of like it. I mean I, too, groan a bit every time the event comes up, but I basically see that as the point. It's a chore. Sometimes a good slave just has to put her head down and get her chores done. Events like that aren't really fun on their own, but they build the relationship and help make the more enjoyable events feel more significant. It would be more entertaining if we could do it like this, though: Spoiler On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: I'm not all suggesting that your fantasy is somehow wrong, but might it not be more interesting if your character has to change to become a proud slave, perhaps being forced to acknowledge desires that initially shame her? For me, the only shame that's particularly interesting is the shame of being a bad pet. Lola does have to change to become a proud slave, but that pride is earned by learning to become the slave that Mistress wants her to be; she has nothing to be proud of before she learns to serve her Mistress properly. To say that Lola had secretly desired to do these things all along and that Mistress merely showed her her true passions seems to portray Lola as a self-serving little bitch rather than as Mistress's devoted pet. Doing these things because Mistress desires it—not because Lola desires it herself—is surely much more becoming of a well-trained slave. To help further clarify what I have in mind with this humiliation fetish toggle idea, I've been collecting specific examples of dialogue. This is far from exhaustive; just examples that came up in the last couple of days and that I had the presence of mind to jot down. As I mentioned, if you wanted to share your working documents so I can see all the dialogue in an organised manner, I could provide more extensive comments. Spoiler Mistress's answer to "Mistress, do I please you?" at "(Very Submissive)" scores is basically in perfect alignment with how I view Lola. But I really don't care for Mistress's answer at "(Ideal Slave") scores, where—in between excellent first and last lines, granted—she pivots from speaking of Lola's devotion to speaking of Lola's depravity. I love the little Falmer cave event, "I hope my dancing pleases you, Mistress!" "It's pouring down snow, and my slave is still prancing around naked for me... something something good girl." Love it! It's simply a fact that positive reinforcement is a very effective training technique. Mistress's response to, "I didn't think it was possible at first, but I actually like being your pet," has some great responses. (Most of the xx05DF23 dialogue is right in line with my framing.) "Of course, Mistress. *I'll [I'd] be honoured to be seen with you." This is a perfect example of the kind of framing that I like, typo (unless that was a typo in my transcription) not withstanding. The kind of demeaning framing found elsewhere in the mod might portray this dialogue instead as something like, "I'm going to [walk to the Bannered Mare? Don't actually remember for sure where this one came from...]? That's so naughty!" "Touch yourself a little for me." I quite like this whole exchange; the line where Mistress calls Lola a "little tramp" reads more as playful teasing than as serious degradation. I love most of the dialogue in "The Naughty Nymph" because Mistress frames it as showing Lola off, although there is one dialogue in there somewhere about being a slut that I'd alter for a no humiliation fetish variant. Would love some expansion of this event, by the way, e.g., to include actual bondage for the purported "bondage scene". Maybe they act out two scenes, starting with a furniture bondage scene just between Lola and Mistress to better reflect the actual play, then another brief line reading sequence to set up the second scene where the bard joins for a threesome. Confession: "I need sex all the time, but Mistress doesn't let me cum without permission." This one is definitely not the worst offender, but it's the one I have at hand. Especially at high submission scores, this doesn't really fit the framing I've been trying to lay out. Better might be, (Low submission) "Sometimes I cum without permission, and then Mistress has to punish me," and (High submission) "I never cum without permission, even though Mistress keeps me on edge all the time!" On 1/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, HexBolt8 said: Because it's a vanilla event and therefore tame? ? SexLab Solutions offers sex with the revelers. I'm open to suggestions, but for compatibility I won't tamper with the quest itself. I can add dialog to revelers and probably link it to any reveler quest stages. Just something simple. When they offer you a Honningbrew Mead, rather than accepting it for yourself, you'd have a dialogue option to accept it on behalf of Mistress. Then, if you don't offer it to Mistress promptly, she'll punish you. Ideally, Mistress will also punish you if you choose one of the vanilla dialogue paths, accepting a mead for yourself or sharing one with the revelers. Maybe, if you want to go a little further, after you bring Mistress the mead, she sends you back to thank them, either with a simple dialogue, or perhaps with sex if any of them match your MCM sexual preference settings or with a dance if not. On 1/7/2022 at 10:16 PM, HexBolt8 said: Rather being told that you are a sex toy, you're told you like being made to be one because that secretly excites you. [...] Earlier dialog was probably influenced by the Devious Followers mindset, where the follower will frequently gaslight and undermine the player's confidence. [...] You're repeatedly told that you secretly want everything the owner does to you, no matter how embarrassing, shameful, or taboo. The owner reinforces that idea by telling you that it's the humiliation itself that you desire. You want to be made to feel naughty and dirty (if it weren't humiliating, you wouldn't feel dirty, you'd be happy and proud of what you're doing). To me, there's no clearer example of gaslighting than being told what I secretly desire. On 1/7/2022 at 10:16 PM, HexBolt8 said: You want to be made to feel naughty and dirty (if it weren't humiliating, you wouldn't feel dirty, you'd be happy and proud of what you're doing). Lola wants to learn not to feel embarrassed to do the things that make Mistress happy. Not to derive masochistic pleasure from the shame itself. Having some shame and degradation in the mod doesn't bother me per se—although it doesn't really do anything for me, either—but it progresses in exactly the wrong direction as you advance your training. Being made to do things that make Lola feel dirty is fine at low submission, but by the time she's fairly well-trained, she should have learnt to be obedient enough to overcome her inhibitions and no longer be stymied by shame. But being turned on by feeling shame would be counterproductive to achieving perfect submission. On 1/7/2022 at 10:16 PM, HexBolt8 said: Rather being told that you are a sex toy, you're told you like being made to be one because that secretly excites you. This is a change in the wrong direction for me. If we were flagging dialogue as yes or no for humiliation fetish, I'd put this new dialogue more in the "yes" category, and the original dialogue as a better fit for the "no" category—although probably with some room for improvement there. This might be a good place to point out that, if you want to keep developing the mod in this direction by changing more existing dialogue along these same lines, it's more likely to alienate users who aren't into humiliation fetish content rather than to endear them, but if you were to undertake a toggle for this, you could pursue more differentiation here without limit without any worrying about turning off part of your audience. Again, I don't have much idea of the relative sizes of each demographic, so maybe that's a tradeoff you'd want to make anyway, but it's worth being aware that it would be a tradeoff. On 1/7/2022 at 10:16 PM, HexBolt8 said: Instead of being told that you're useless except as a whore, you're told that whoring is what you're best at. This sounds like the opposite case, where the new dialogue is more of the "no" and the original is more of the "yes". Or maybe it's neutral and just a straight improvement. I haven't run into this dialogue yet to see it in full. On 1/7/2022 at 10:16 PM, HexBolt8 said: That has a place here (it's a form of control), but it seems better to focus on humiliation and "corruption" rather than incompetence and loss of confidence. I'd strongly prefer more straightforward training frame—toward submission, obedience, and service—to either, personally. On 1/7/2022 at 10:16 PM, HexBolt8 said: The owner is sincere, believes everything he/she says, and is right about Lola. The human player can decide how self-aware Lola is. Is this a big revelation, one that's hard to accept at first but gradually becomes exciting? Did she have some idea about this, and was fascinated with the book? Does she already know her nature, and can't wait to be pushed to go further and further? Happy ending, or dream come true. [...] Lola might be an aimless drifter and a blank slate. A strong hand might be exactly what she wants. She knows she needs direction. She's watched the owner from afar. She admires this person, and she's sexually attracted. As a slave she'll have direction and be with this fascinating person who otherwise would have ignored her. One thing a slave is certain to get is attention. These would be the closest to my image of Lola and Mistress, but none of your options quite hits it. I've experimented with a wide variety of stories for how Lola and Mistress begin their relationship. In one playthrough, I did the Laura's Bondage Shop questline before starting SLTR, and the story was that that experience showed Antiope what she wanted, and Mistress was an old war buddy she already admired and trusted. I think this is probably the most immersive path into SLTR I've found, but it's a long road to get to the content I most want to play, so I don't usually repeat it. What I usually do at this point is just start the game already enslaved—I even patched Mistress to spawn in the LAL starter cell—and use a backstory whereby Mistress had purchased Antiope as a child and raised her, and now that she's come of age, she could ask for her freedom—I don't configure SLTR to lock in "Kept Forever" until the 100 score event—but she simply can't imagine any life for herself other than by Mistress's side—it's a scary world out there in Tamriel—so instead she prefers to try to learn to be a good slave that will make Mistress happy. Since coming of age, Antiope can now begin her training in earnest. I find this "no conceivable alternative" story quite compelling, but it's also simply what makes for the most fun gameplay for me rather than having to play the game for a while before starting SLTR. (This is developed further in the blog in my signature.) A starter path that I haven't tried yet but would like to explore would be having a death alternative send Antiope to SS++ and having Mistress buy her there, so their origin can be one where Lola feels grateful that she was bought by such a beautiful and strong Mistress—and that she was rescued by slavers in the first place rather than being left to die. Regardless of how they get started, though, Lola sees Mistress a bit like how a child views a stern father figure and a bit like how a hunting dog views its master. (Or maybe a show dog would be closer fit in some ways? That seems like it involves rather too much luxury, though.) Lola respects and admires Mistress, and she's grateful for the home Mistress provides her. She knows she owes Mistress a lot, and she wants to be a good girl for her. Lola has much to learn before she can satisfy Mistress's demands, but she can imagine no dream she covets more than to make Mistress sincerely proud of her. Of course, at the start, how could such an undisciplined slave possibly merit any pride? But Lola hopes that, if she works hard enough, one day she'll be worthy of it! Whether it's whoring or treasure hunting or dancing or little chores like sweeping up, everything Lola does is oriented toward that goal of one day deserving for Mistress to feel proud of her. On 1/11/2022 at 4:53 PM, CaptainJ03 said: I can feel the pain. That's the exact reason why I always write longer posts in an external editor. Yeah, I do that where it's practical, but when your Wall-o'-Text™ is really a Wall-o'-Quotes™, then it just isn't really feasible. I should try to find a setting to change the post format from rich text to HTML or vBCode or whatever, though, so I can at least back it up in a text file to prevent total calamities. Anyone know if that's an option on this forum? On 1/11/2022 at 6:24 PM, HexBolt8 said: Sometimes I'll split longer responses into parts I can't do that. Then people start replying to the first post before I finish the second, and then I just get trapped in an endless cycle of catch-up forever. I need to just work slavishly ? until I have one massive behemoth, then drop it all at once. On 1/11/2022 at 6:24 PM, HexBolt8 said: I'm in the habit of copying everything to clipboard before pressing the submit button. I usually do that, too, but when the whole website explodes while you're still in the middle of writing it, it doesn't really help. On 1/11/2022 at 6:55 PM, HexBolt8 said: Changed: Minor enhancements to dancing. - If you dance for your owner, the owner will now comment twice, if the dance isn't too short. - If you dance for an NPC for "I Am Famous": - The NPC will comment once, and the owner will comment once. - The NPC should no longer be able to wander away. - The quest time won't expire (resulting in failure) while you're dancing. All great changes from what I've seen so far! On 1/11/2022 at 6:55 PM, HexBolt8 said: - When you do something humiliating with one person, such as saying a confession, the mod now determines that person's reaction (favorable or unfavorable), modified by relationship rank and your past interactions, and remembers this attitude. It is sometimes used to choose between positive or negative comments. Can this attitude be changed once established by changing your relationship rank with the NPC? e.g., If I make a confession to Ysolda before bringing her a Mammoth Tusk, and she judges me unfavourably, then I bring her the tusk ("for the Khajiit," I'm sure, dear!) so that she likes me now, will that re-seed her attitude? Edited January 13, 2022 by Antiope_Apollonia
bnub345 Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 @Antiope_Apollonia It sounds to me like you want your own version of the mod. Not to put words in HexBolt's mouth, but avoiding humiliation seems somewhat counter to the concept of SLTR. You are a slave, and your owner can do anything they want to you, whether you like it or not. Removing the cruel and degrading options from the owner would really just make it into a consensual dom/sub relationship mod rather than a slave relationship. Not that wanting something like that is wrong, I just think your best course of action would be to edit the dialogues in TESVEdit yourself. I've thought about changing it to my taste before, but HexBolt updates the mod so frequently (how dare they ) I would have to choose between using the new versions or using my dialogue. Also, if HexBolt has some organized system to make skyrim modding not a convoluted mess, I'd like to see it. And maybe they should apply for a job at Bethesda. I do have to agree that the tone of the dialogue is sometimes inconsistent. You go through the whole process where the owner trains you to be utterly dependent on them, and then if you profess actually having feelings they're like "sure, you crazy bitch." Even if you are going through some kind of stockholm syndrome and the owner is only cynically using you, surely they would encourage any emotional attachment on the part of the slave. As far as the whore/slut designation, I think this fits into the whole well trained slave aspect more than you are seeing. It is frequently stated in various dialogues that as a good slave, you have to be constantly aroused and ready for sex at any time. See also the devices that can raise arousal at the owner's whim. So being an incorrigible slut really goes hand in hand with being a devoted slave, as least as far as SLTR is written.
Antiope_Apollonia Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, bnub345 said: It sounds to me like you want your own version of the mod. It wouldn't be a small tweak, but it definitely wouldn't have to go that far. It's always hard to assess the scale of the whole when you can only ever observe a small part at one time, so maybe I'm way off, but I think you'd be looking at adding alternative lines for something in the ballpark of three dozen dialogues? I don't know exactly how hard it is to implement "A" and "B" paths for dialogue contingent upon an MCM toggle, but the majority of the dialogue plays fine both ways, and none of the mechanics would need touched. At least right now, but I'm gravely concerned by recent comments to the effect that Hex wants to move in exactly the opposite direction. 18 hours ago, bnub345 said: Not to put words in HexBolt's mouth, but avoiding humiliation seems somewhat counter to the concept of SLTR. (This is a really critical point, and after rereading my Wall-o'-Text, I should have made it more clearly there.) It's not humiliation per se that I want to avoid—it's the portrayal of that humiliation as a positive or as an end unto itself. It's the fetishisation of humiliation. Lola will doubtless have to do many humiliating things as part of her training. She's likely to feel humiliated while she's an wild, untrained filly yet to give in to Mistress's strong hand. But that feeling of humiliation should be a negative stimulus that pushes her to learn to be a better slave. Some strangers from higher social castes with low self-esteem may still bully her and try to make her feel ashamed regardless of how well-trained she becomes, but a good slave needs approval from exactly one person and has learnt not to let others bother her—sulking about some random mean-spirited comment from some cunt in the market would be a sure-fire way to earn a taste of Mistress's skills with the whip. A well-trained, well-behaved slave need never have anything to feel ashamed of. What I don't like is when Mistress treats humiliation as the goal rather than as a by-product of training, and what I really don't like is when Mistress tries to gaslight Lola into thinking she should like feeling dirty rather than encouraging Lola to strive be good enough at her duties to feel pride in her performance rather than shame. 18 hours ago, bnub345 said: You are a slave, and your owner can do anything they want to you, whether you like it or not. That's kind of part of my point. I don't object to anything that Mistress does. What I object to is the notion that it should both cause Lola shame and that Lola should masochistically like feeling so ashamed. Why should Lola need to like feeling dirty? Why wouldn't it be better for Lola to learn to accept that the slave's life is her lot, to recognise the beauty of perfect submission, and to begin to feel pride as she draws closer to it? It seems like the only motivation for pursuing this framing is because some players find it appealingly kinky—which is a fine reason, don't misunderstand me, but my point has just been that it isn't a universal one. I can't see any rationale for how it's actually in Mistress's interest fundamentally to prefer her pet to feel shame and then derive masochistic pleasure from that shame rather than being motivated by trying to be a good girl and feeling proud for doing a good job. It seems like cultivating the latter would give Mistress a pet who is more committed to obedient service. The former sounds like some co-dependent nightmare where both Mistress and Lola are each trying to manipulate and exploit the other for their own kinks. But each to her own. If people want to roleplay a Lola as a kinkster learning to get off on feeling dirty, that's no skin off my back—whatever tickles your pickle. But I'm equally ready to die on the hill of defending the validity of the alternative roleplaying stance, where Lola is just trying to learn to learn to be a good pet and make the best of the slave's life, and Mistress just wants to own the most obedient, devoted slave she can. I'm simply not going to concede that I've somehow been playing incorrectly in the hundreds of hours I've spent enjoying SLTR. 18 hours ago, bnub345 said: I do have to agree that the tone of the dialogue is sometimes inconsistent. Exactly. That's why I think it'd make sense to dovetail some of it into two separate paths. Rather than trying to smooth out the inconsistencies, embrace them, since some of the already extant dialogues cater to one demographic, and others cater to another. 18 hours ago, bnub345 said: As far as the whore/slut designation, I think this fits into the whole well trained slave aspect more than you are seeing. For me, the difference would be whether Lola whores simply because Mistress desires it, and Lola desires to please Mistress, or whether Lola whores because she wants to fuck everything that moves, and Mistress allows an outlet for it. The former appeals to me; the latter does not, especially at high score levels by which Lola should be pretty devoted to Mistress. I understand that humiliation is a pretty widespread kink—the mildest flavour being your basic bedroom "dirty talk"—but it's definitely not a universal kink, and I know I'm not alone in finding even pretty mild dirty talk to be a pretty big turnoff. I really enjoy submission, obedience, training, sexual service, etc.—basically every other button that SLTR pushes—and I think it would be a real boon if that kink could be disentangled somewhat from the rest of the mod's functionality the way that foot fetish and scat fetish content is. In short, for me, rather than wanting Lola to learn to like feeling ashamed in the course of her service, Mistress should want Lola to learn to feel honoured to serve. Mistress even says as much in one or two dialogues! Edited January 13, 2022 by Antiope_Apollonia 1
Hex Bolt Posted January 13, 2022 Author Posted January 13, 2022 I haven't had time to go through all the recent comments, but I'll reiterate that this mod really, really is not about a modern, consensual, healthy dom/sub relationship. When he rebooted it, MrEsturk described the tone as "kinky dark comedy". When Lola gets collared, she finds herself way in over her head, forced to do things she doesn't want while being told she does want it. The only recent shift in direction was softening some denigrating comments. Instead of being useless as an adventurer and only capable of whoring, Lola is best suited for whoring and should consider a future in that if adventuring doesn't work out. The last update also unlocked pre-existing prostitution responses that had erroneously been unavailable. They reinforce the humiliation principle, in step with the rest of the mod. I provided an extra choice for players who prefer not to see the new responses. I am genuinely sorry for players who are unhappy with this mod's central concepts and tone. It would be wonderful if we had various domination mods to choose from. Or more than a few enslavement mods. But we don't, so I'll just say that this mod does what it does and tries to be consistent about it. Toward that end, I might remove the "I love you" topic. That's some older content that I'd intended to either be humorous (in line with "dark comedy") or to put Lola in her place. I like it. But this is definitely not a romance mod, so if that topic is causing problems, I can remove it. 5
Anunya Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 8 hours ago, SkyAddiction said: If you're looking for poses, Gunslicer's mod has several hundred. Some even qualify as dancing. Check them out when you get a chance - you might find something useful or get some ideas. Oooh there's some nice stuff there. I just spent my gaming time tonight going through the first hundred or so of the animated poses using the rings. I completely agree that there are a lot of animations in there which - if you string a few of them together - would make dances that IMO are much better than the current options. I don't know if Gunslicer would give permissions for those animations to be used in SubLola though... but if so that'd be awesome. That suggests another idea, though I don't know how complex it would be - @HexBolt8 how easy/ difficult would it be to to be in a folder where players could put one or more animations .hkx files to be used as the dance animations in their games? That way you wouldn't have to worry about the topic anymore - people could just put in whatever suited their tastes. For me personally, the ideal situation is one in which I find a way to string together four or five Gunslicer animated poses I like, then do that a handful of times to make dances which are played randomly when appropriate. That would, for me, move dancing from "ugh, dancing... I suppose... let's get it over with" to "I hope Lola has to dance again soon!"
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