Toys (a new framework) - Seeking Feedback & Ideas

[VirginMarie]

30 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

With basic rule in bondage taken away, i'm sorry to say it's just not my thing. Good luck with the project though.

 

15 minutes ago, Baltasarr80 said:

i think there might also be an option to opt no choice in Zaflis ? he just said Nothing forced ... that doesnt meen you cannot choose to do this

The philosophy of Toys is "Make it realistic to play with Toys, while also playing the rest of the game". 

 

It will be good to have choice. We already have a framework that gives the more hardcore choice. This one will be different. Very different in many cases.

 

The content mods have the choice, to not give choices, to end users, so ultimately its up to content mods.

[Silvain]

First off all I really like the idea. Just yesterday I was stuck in a certain animation which shall not specified any further for around 3 minutes. A less intrusive approach would be awesome as that gets old real fast.

 

Most of my suggestion you have probably already considered but it doesn't hurt to list them anyway.

 

- Easy way to detect if a toy is equipped and what kind of toy it is.

- Maybe -if those "toys" work as armors - keyword support for Baka and Monomans mods. (Aroused, Bikinifier, Survival)

- "Transform" features make me dream of the possibilities for a "cursed equippment" mod. Maybe adding several stages to such a transformation and ways to progress forward and backwards could be an option?

- Nemesis is able to "merge" behaviour files (I just started using it so I'm not exatly sure how this works), maybe that would be an option for "mobile" animations that spice things up a bit but don't interrupt regular gameplay. If one could find an animator to do this.

- different sound and visual effects are always awesome. Maybe even with adjustable volume? I honestly feel like visual and sound effects can give a lot to this mod. The give feedback without really preventing playing the game. Well at least if those visual effects are not totally off the charts.

- Maybe - if it's possible - having the same slots for toys that framework that shall not be named uses is a good idea?

- Again Transformation: if you want it to play nice with other mods out there maybe make it so that toy events can easily trigger off of other events from the vanilla game and other mods? Pregnancy mods, SLSO, Survival, the one that shall not be named, vanilla triggers like absorbing dragon souls, wordwalls, maybe even finishing quests, taking a ferry, fast traveling, and all that stuff to tie toys in the regular gameplay.

- I know it can be tedious but providing controll to the user is always good in my book. I would love trigger chances, effect strength, transformation requirements/triggers, key drop chances and everything else where it makes sense to be adjustable. Do you even want to have chance based mechanics within the framework?

- Clear communication. Now I believe this is where stuff gets a bit tricky. Transformations are cool, but not neccessarily obvious in the way they work. There should be a way to get those informations ingame. Toggleable tutorial mode is sure an option and probably the easiest one.

 

- That thought made an idea pop up for a mod using your toys framework. A few devices that are - in style of the loot mod that uses the system that shall not be named - forced equipped to the player. Those have certain requirements to be transformed so they can be removed. For an example a collar that punishes you for not helping others. It slowly gets tighter the longer you go without doing quests (stamina/magicka debuff) and has a few certain visual/sound effects typical for this collar. Then somewhere in the world - somewhere readily accessible - are books/npcs describing the visual/sound effects and what to do to get rid of the toy. With several stages of transformation the player would be able to build his own little freestyle quest chain cause it's up to the player on how to solve the different requirements.

 

- But having all those stages would probably make the framework quite script heavy I guess?

 

 

[VirginMarie]

1 hour ago, Silvain said:

- Easy way to detect if a toy is equipped and what kind of toy it is.

Yes, a given.

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- Maybe -if those "toys" work as armors - keyword support for Baka and Monomans mods. (Aroused, Bikinifier, Survival)

Not sure what this means. What's the end goal?

A mod would be able to add it's own keywords, if adding it's own toys.

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- "Transform" features make me dream of the possibilities for a "cursed equippment" mod. Maybe adding several stages to such a transformation and ways to progress forward and backwards could be an option?

I would start with just the 2 stages for v1. Since it's based on arousal level, the states WILL already be both forwards and backwards. I'd certainly consider a 3rd stage for a later release, if there's some successes, and a demand to expand.

 

One reason I'm including this feature in V1 is that I've already done it in SLaV. SLaV has Virgin Devices (toys) that are called Melting (they turn translucent), and Horny (they are nipple toys that transform by having a horn pop out). This works well, thus I will move it into the framework.

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- Nemesis is able to "merge" behaviour files (I just started using it so I'm not exatly sure how this works), maybe that would be an option for "mobile" animations that spice things up a bit but don't interrupt regular gameplay. If one could find an animator to do this.

Definitely looking at Nemesis. With FNIS, in SLaV, I already do "mobile" animations. I call them "Fondle Thyself" which you do while walking about freely. That feature is being moved into Toys.

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- different sound and visual effects are always awesome. Maybe even with adjustable volume? I honestly feel like visual and sound effects can give a lot to this mod. The give feedback without really preventing playing the game. Well at least if those visual effects are not totally off the charts.

I will be doing lots of these, both in the effects, and they can be called by mods. 

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- Maybe - if it's possible - having the same slots for toys that framework that shall not be named uses is a good idea?

Definitely. No reason to reinvent that wheel.

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- Again Transformation: if you want it to play nice with other mods out there maybe make it so that toy events can easily trigger off of other events from the vanilla game and other mods? Pregnancy mods, SLSO, Survival, the one that shall not be named, vanilla triggers like absorbing dragon souls, wordwalls, maybe even finishing quests, taking a ferry, fast traveling, and all that stuff to tie toys in the regular gameplay.

This is good idea that I had not thought of yet. I could start with a few mod events that mods could use as triggers. "Toy_Transformed" "Toy_Removed_By_User"

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- I know it can be tedious but providing controll to the user is always good in my book. I would love trigger chances, effect strength, transformation requirements/triggers, key drop chances and everything else where it makes sense to be adjustable. Do you even want to have chance based mechanics within the framework?

There will be MCM setting for any and all that make sense. Also ways for Mods to make their own MCM settings, which should override the Global ones in Toys. The framework should be the default, the mod should be able to take control if it wants, and the users choices, or lack of them, should be up to the mod. That's the concept anyhow.

 

Chance based mechanics are not planned, but if someone came up with an idea that is fun for escape that has chance, or there's demand for the transformation itself to have a bit of chance thrown in, I'd be open to it. Also, keys... I don't want them to be distributed by Toys. They should be from content mods. Bondage shops, blacksmiths, randomly found in stuff, etc. So Keys naturally become chance based in some cases. Toys might need to have some basic key provision mechanic, if we don't know of a mod author planning already to do a mod for that in time for first release.

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- Clear communication. Now I believe this is where stuff gets a bit tricky. Transformations are cool, but not neccessarily obvious in the way they work. There should be a way to get those informations ingame. Toggleable tutorial mode is sure an option and probably the easiest one.

• I will be using lots of sound queues, and some visual. When the transformation occurs there will be a distinct sound for that, so even if the mod author has not made a 2nd model for a visual transformation, a toy can still be transformed and at least you are aware from the sound
• mercplatypus and I are working on a separate content mod called Toy Story to be paired with Toys. Its to be an End User Tutorial/Quest, with a tribute to Zed, for each feature and will serve as a test harness, and demo code for all to use
• There will be "Tips" (pop-up-message box), for teaching, and you can turn this off in MCM

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- But having all those stages would probably make the framework quite script heavy I guess?

3 stages would be fine. I think it gets a bit much beyond that since each aspect of it multiples, and simplicity for user understanding is important too.

[tamai]

oh this looks interesting! Wishing you the best of luck on your project! We need a framework like this that is more customizable to its users preferences ^^

[MonVert]

10 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

Make it realistic to play with Toys, while also playing the rest of the game". 

 

 

Nothing less enjoyable than being shoved into bondage gear every ten minutes. <_< And then trying to find a key. So, yes, I hope you can make this a fun addition to the game.

[Mister X]

41 minutes ago, MonVert said:

 

Nothing less enjoyable than being shoved into bondage gear every ten minutes. <_< And then trying to find a key. So, yes, I hope you can make this a fun addition to the game.

Here I have to intervent. In your case, it's not the fault of any framework, just the addons that you use for your framework and your MCM settings.

In other words: if you get bound every 10 minutes and have to look for a key, it's basically your fault  

 

And before somebody gets this wrong: no, I don't favor one or the other framework and yes, competition is mostly a good thing. 

[VirginMarie]

53 minutes ago, MonVert said:

 

Nothing less enjoyable than being shoved into bondage gear every ten minutes. <_< And then trying to find a key. So, yes, I hope you can make this a fun addition to the game.

It will still be up to the content mods to decide to what extent the "Make it realistic to play with Toys, while also playing the rest of the game" is available. But they will have the means for this.

 

There will be no pop-ups, menus, struggling, lock picking, or cutting. Instead, we have the new Transformation mechanic, and "getting hit" mechanic, which means you never stop playing the game while escaping from Toys. Might have to get aroused, get hit, or find a key, or finish a quest to get the key. We still want consequences, but not tedious ones.

 

SLaV uses its own "get hit" to escape. Other than that, it uses only quest based keys or NPC removing for you, because there was no other escape method I wanted to use. With Toys, I will adjust SLaV to use the Transformation mechanic, for some of the Toys.

[VirginMarie]

2 minutes ago, Mister X said:

 it's not the fault of any framework, just the addons that you use for your framework and your MCM settings.

In other words: if you get bound every 10 minutes and have to look for a key, it's basically your fault  

Yes, I agree with this too. The "your fault" part might be stated as "you have not yet figured out how to adjust for it, or that you might want to get rid of a particular mod". It's not always easy to understand and sort out. Sometimes bugs make those MCM settings not work too. Toys I hope ends up making that easier. And then it comes down to not having tedious methods.

[tamai]

Also alot of the devices that are into the other framework coudln't you ask permission to use some of those? Like heretical resources for instance since it was its own mod at one point. I mean at least have packs to integrate them maybe?

 

I know this is probably out of the scope of this framework but something that always bugged me is that there wasnt a way to remove toys off of npcs, I think that woudl also be a good idea to add

 

Lastly I was hoping that this mod doesn't have like multiple esp/esm's >< because that is a big problem with as many mods as some people have in their load orders and lastly i am just wishing that maybe devices and stuff are added for males as well from the beginning if at all possible that would be so great ❤️

 

for instance:

 

vivs cockcages

DCC4 Male Chastity Devic

 

Sorry i am honestly just looking forward to what this will become alot of these ideas are just me thinking out loud so I hope i am not sounding pushy and obviously my suggestions are just that suggestion ^^

 

 

[MonVert]

50 minutes ago, Mister X said:

Here I have to intervent. In your case, it's not the fault of any framework, just the addons that you use for your framework and your MCM settings.

In other words: if you get bound every 10 minutes and have to look for a key, it's basically your fault  

 

Sadly, some mods don't have an MCM with the ability to tweak every setting, while others are an all or nothing package. There are a lot of said mods with too ambitious a goal and not enough modularity to get exactly what you want. You either go hardcore, or you don't get anything...because nobody wants to spend time making something else.

[VirginMarie]

29 minutes ago, tamai said:

Also alot of the devices that are into the other framework coudln't you ask permission to use some of those? Like heretical resources for instance since it was its own mod at one point. I mean at least have packs to integrate them maybe?

I already have permission for many. The permission originally for SLaV. This includes ZAP and Heretical. So that is the planned starting point, and will be looking for a modeler to make a Toys branded set of Toys, and will be asking for permission all over the place. Might get some volunteers right here too. We also need animations, which can start with permissions from existing authors.

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I know this is probably out of the scope of this framework but something that always bugged me is that there wasnt a way to remove toys off of npcs, I think that woudl also be a good idea to add

Toys on NPCs, and the player, will be simpler. Only one armor part, instead of the pair in the framework that shall not be named. We can do this because no menus. So Toys will go on/off NPCs like any normal piece of armor, and be cosmetic only, not locking. This means, at least for V1, that there wont be something like an armbinder on NPCs, because we wont be messing with the animations to do that. But it also means that your wish is already baked in.

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Lastly I was hoping that this mod doesn't have like multiple esp/esm's >< because that is a big problem with as many mods as some people have in their load orders and lastly i am just wishing that maybe devices and stuff are added for males as well from the beginning if at all possible that would be so great ❤️

Will be only one esm, and stay that way. Toy Story will be a separate mod though.

I've got a Beast Races and Toys For Him section, in the writeup. We'd get more Toys for Him over time, and maybe due to people making mods or "Toys Packs".

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Sorry i am honestly just looking forward to what this will become alot of these ideas are just me thinking out loud so I hope i am not sounding pushy and obviously my suggestions are just that suggestion ^^

Oh we very much WANT the feedback, even constructive negative.

[tamai]

23 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

Oh we very much WANT the feedback, even constructive negative.

yay! sounds great! i really love those packs, so I am glad they will be integrated ^^

 

EDIT: i do look forward to all thats in this mod the only thing i wish for it is to be able to put chastity items on my boys ? locking or not

[DonQuiWho]

2 hours ago, tamai said:

 

I know this is probably out of the scope of this framework but something that always bugged me is that there wasnt a way to remove toys off of npcs, I think that woudl also be a good idea to add

 

You're not explicit as to which NPCs you mean, but if you are talking about Follower NPCs, then Devious Device Helpers might be useful to you

 

 

[tamai]

52 minutes ago, donkeywho said:

You're not explicit as to which NPCs you mean, but if you are talking about Follower NPCs, then Devious Device Helpers might be useful to you

This looks great but what i was meaning is that say if you had a mod that distributed toys among citizens of skryim there would be an option either through dialogue or other ways to be able to take those items off of them. If they're your follower you can just go into their inventory and remove the items but if they arent your follower there is no possible way.

[VirginMarie]

4 hours ago, tamai said:

If they're your follower you can just go into their inventory and remove the items but if they arent your follower there is no possible way

Ah I see. The way I think about that, from a Toys framework perspective, is that since the framework is not putting the Toys on the NPCs, it does not have any business in removing them. The content mod that did this, or a Helper mod, could do this. I will make sure that Toys gives the content mod, the means to do this. Possibly a "debug" feature to remove all from player or NPC, too.

[DayTri]

7 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

I already have permission for many. The permission originally for SLaV. This includes ZAP and Heretical. So that is the planned starting point, and will be looking for a modeler to make a Toys branded set of Toys, and will be asking for permission all over the place. Might get some volunteers right here too. We also need animations, which can start with permissions from existing authors.

 

 

Why not just start by using all the DDA devices?

 

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5. Can I re-use these items in my own creation?

You're very much welcome to use the mesh and texture contents of the DDa mod in your own creative works if the following conditions are met:

 

1) The resulting mod or product should be available for free

 

2) There should be a brief mention of the source somewhere in the description and/or readme. Something along the lines of “Featuring Zadil’s meshes and textures from the Skyrim mod ‘Devious Devices: Assets’” would perfectly suffice.

 

[VirginMarie]

9 minutes ago, DayTri said:

Why not just start by using all the DDA devices?

There's good reason, too political to explain here, for me to have rock solid permission direct from original authors, in this situation. I will not proxy any permissions through the framework that shall not be named. But don't worry, there will be plenty of Toy assets. 

[VirginMarie]

I'm looking for feedback on the below. I'm getting into the details of how a mod can define Toys and their Effects. Much of this is already partially working, since it's been largely done already in SLaV, and I'm moving the mechanics into Toys.

 

 

This approach for ToysType, uses the body part, instead of the Toy. This subtle difference makes more sense when defining unique toys that don't fit the mold.

The ToysBlock, will not be used to filter animations. Instead, in the tutorial quest "Toy Story", you will learn of the Phasing Enchantment that explains this.

 

 

One question I have... You may notice I'm not including a "vibration" or "Shock" effect. I don't want to copy the other framework, and so am introducing the Effects above instead. Will anyone miss those two effects, badly? And what other thoughts/ideas do you have?

[(\x.x x) (\x.x x)]

16 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

One question I have... You may notice I'm not including a "vibration" or "Shock" effect. I don't want to copy the other framework, and so am introducing the Effects above instead. Will anyone miss those two effects, badly? And what other thoughts/ideas do you have?

I think remote effects would be missed.

While I totally subscribe to "Make it realistic to play with Toys, while also playing the rest of the game",

I think that remote actors would can create interesting tension.

As I am still patiently and eagerly waiting for SLAV SSE, I can only presume that this is exactly the premise of your mod.

I'd also like to have a different take on Treasure Hunter Whore (like treasure hunter dare) or a S.L.U.T.S. with a driver that motivates their pony from their seat.

 

This, however, is not to say that these effects must be part of Toys, unless the user cannot just run both frameworks, but

I think triggering a transformation remotely is something that has a lot of potential.

Other mods can come with other remote transformations than shock and vibrations that provide interesting plot hooks.

Maybe nipple piercings that transform into a inconveniently short chain.

Furthermore, I'd like to add that neither the concept of toys that can be activated remotely and nor the concept of toys that can activate on their own meets the bar

of being so innovative that one could reasonably consider it copying.

 

So, I think, if feasible, you should just separate the transformation trigger (e.g. combat hit, arousal level) from the toy effect (e.g. translucence, magical bind) and you're good to go.

For trigger you'd have combat hit, time of day, time interval, location type, remote (mod event), per chance, and then the toy transforms into another state that has a different effect.

You could go further and have multi-stage toys, where you have to have an orgasm for the first transformation, than it needs to be exposed to sunlight at moon

and then you need to go swimming for the final stage (not arguing that this make sense).

Mod authors would have the freedom to create a catsuit that becomes translucent at noon.

It just occurred to me that you could have a toy with a zipper in the crotch that unzips itself when the character's arousal is high. :)

 

That said, I really appreciate your efforts of doing something different, especially the more playing, less watching part.

I am just concerned that it is a hell of a lot of work.

[Mister X]

1 hour ago, VirginMarie said:

I don't want to copy the other framework, and so am introducing the Effects above instead. Will anyone miss those two effects, badly? And what other thoughts/ideas do you have?

I thnk if you really want to create a new framework, you shouldn't look for what's already there, but for whats needed/convenient to have. As such, vibrating/shocking toys can provide some possibilities, be it simply the fun to send the character into orgasm after orgasm or complex setups like Treasure Hunter Whore has it. Here, the frequency of vibration effects tells how close you are to the target.

 

Additionally, you could borrow the idea (not the code ^^) of a quest removal token. It was introduced because some modders are lazy fucks and use UnequipAll with no thought of breaking quests whatsoever. This way essential quest items only can be removed with the correct token provided.

 

Another idea, even though I don't know if it's feasible: custom effects: maybe some keyword ToysEffect_Custom and if a device has the keyword, periodically send a special event (eg "ToysEffectCustomEvent") that a script, thats's applied to the device, can catch and work upon. 

[VirginMarie]

15 minutes ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

I am just concerned that it is a hell of a lot of work.

SLaV already has wrist toys that cause magical wrist restraints, collars that make you crawl, and many toys that transform. The effects as defined, are mostly me moving existing, well tested and used mechanics from SLaV, into Toys. All I'm doing is making it possible to use those features via API/keywords/properties. I've already got the unknowns removed, proving to myself the design works. So the effort that I've defined in the tables above, is less than a week, not months.

 

Your idea of remote (mod events) makes sense but I'd do it after a V1 is released. I'm wondering if you could describe another use case, in a bit more detail, from a user perspective, so I can get my mind around it? Do you have something you'd actually do in a mod?

 

23 minutes ago, Mister X said:

quest removal token. It was introduced because some modders are lazy fucks and use UnequipAll with no thought of breaking quests whatsoever. This way essential quest items only can be removed with the correct token provided.

Yes I'm well aware of this, almost used it in SLaV, but did not for reasons (such as wanting to permit device removal, if to be reequipped latter, for something like a prison mod).  And I've thought about it for Toys.

 

My idea on this is that one function can do all, almost. So when the mod makes the call to equip a toy, it can check for a conflicting toy. Sometimes it would swap the Toy for you, other times return a false. I will try to make a single function that does all needs of Toy manipulation in one. So if it's made easy for the modder, you will have less of the lazy problem. Unless a modder skips using the Toys API, there will be no removing a Toy that the author of the other mod, does not want removed. So far I already have the console command, Player.RemoveAllItems, not able to remove, working. I'm seeking more feedback, but tend to think this is at least not for a V1.

 

33 minutes ago, Mister X said:

Another idea, even though I don't know if it's feasible: custom effects: maybe some keyword ToysEffect_Custom and if a device has the keyword, periodically send a special event (eg "ToysEffectCustomEvent") that a script, thats's applied to the device, can catch and work upon. 

Someone already suggested this, and I've added a note in the OP. I would start with a few mod events that get sent, such as "Toys_Transformed" "Toys_Unlocked". Do you have a specific use case you could describe, that you'd actually want to do?

 

[Mister X]

41 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

Do you have a specific use case you could describe, that you'd actually want to do?

No, not really. What I thought of was literally a "ToysEffect_Custom" keyword, where the mod creator can build up some custom effect code.

Maybe the "ToysEvent_Custom" simply tells the framework that something special may happen with that device (so it can be treated specially if needed) and then the mod author can define a special event that has some effects for the toy. This also would fit nicely in the idea of the expandable toy library.

 

I don't have planned anything like that, but this way some kind of milking cuirass could be realized as example. A harness with suction cups that carries said keyword and has a script applied to start the milking process.

[Psalam]

3 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

Will anyone miss those two effects, badly? And what other thoughts/ideas do you have?

Not those two particularly but

 

2 hours ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

I think remote effects would be missed.

There are a large number of already existing effects in the base Skyrim game that could otherwise simulate the results these are meant to achieve. A warming effect could replace a vibrator and a chilling effect could replace a shock for instance. 

[Baltasarr80]

I have spoken with MaikCG about the Dwarven Cuirass ... If someone has the interest to use this Cuirass as a "Robotsuit" as an excample that could fuse with your body and insert "toys" into the pcs charakter as excample. I have no background/knowledge in coding and animation so i would like so see someone make use of this mod

[Baltasarr80]

If heating above a certain arousal could give you a redish color on your skin ...

 

if coldeffect would be in place arousalcould make your skin turn bluish/purple and would make your body shaking/shiver.

Above a certain point then you could black out in a vampire den or in the auction hall from simple slavery etc