Toys (a new framework) - Seeking Feedback & Ideas

[mercplatypus]

29 minutes ago, Baltasarr80 said:

If heating above a certain arousal could give you a redish color on your skin ...

 

if coldeffect would be in place arousalcould make your skin turn bluish/purple and would make your body shaking/shiver.

Above a certain point then you could black out in a vampire den or in the auction hall from simple slavery etc

 

This is entirely doable but would not be a great idea.  None of these effects are related to any toys and none of these ideas requires any toys.  You could literally hook straight into SLA without creating unnecessary extra steps trying to bind it into Toys.  Sexlab Hormones already does the skin color change effect and SLS with frostfall already handle cold and getting sent to Simple Slavery.

 

The cuirass idea is a little strange and doesn't seem very clear.  If I'm reading it right you are talking about a robosuit that already completely binds the entire body adding more bindings.  You literally wouldn't notice as the Cuirass would itself break the effects of the other toys.  If the author gives permission for the Cuirass to be used in mods I'm certain some one will find a use for it but the idea isn't really clear enough to know what you are going for.  A clearer explanation would help.

[(\x.x x) (\x.x x)]

3 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

SLaV already has wrist toys that cause magical wrist restraints, collars that make you crawl, and many toys that transform. The effects as defined, are mostly me moving existing, well tested and used mechanics from SLaV, into Toys. All I'm doing is making it possible to use those features via API/keywords/properties. I've already got the unknowns removed, proving to myself the design works. So the effort that I've defined in the tables above, is less than a week, not months.

Good to hear (read)!

3 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

Your idea of remote (mod events) makes sense but I'd do it after a V1 is released.

That's fair, and it's most probably smarter to have something working.

3 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

I'm wondering if you could describe another use case, in a bit more detail, from a user perspective, so I can get my mind around it? Do you have something you'd actually do in a mod?

I am unsure which part of my post needs clarification, so I'll probably be a little verbose here.

But first to avoid miscommunication, I'll state what I understood:

Toys work with only one item which is displayed and actually worn, and not by using two items.

Upon transformation, the item is replaced with the transformed version which may happen to have the same model.

I am not sure whether you actually replace the item or parts of it (armor add-on, scripts).

My idea was to design the mechanism in a flexible way by separately defining a trigger and a follow-up toy, which may or may not be possible in Skyrim's engine.

 

The first example was to have some cursed item, fairy style (not a find-the-key thing).

This would send the player on a quest to find background knowledge by acquiring and reading fairy tales to learn the steps of the uncursing ritual (sunlight at noon, swimming while the moon shines).

Each step along the way, the player's item would be replaced or transformed if you will.

Obviously it would occupy the same slot but may have different effects fitting the fairy tales (e.g. the horny queen, the frigid bar maiden).

The last version than may be the quest reward.

If you were to support multiple triggers and follow-up items (in version 5.0), errors in ritual may enlengthen the quest by transforming the toy in the wrong direction. 

 

Remote transformation: Say Taarie sends you to Elisif with the dress.

See secretly follows. Once you address the jarl, she transforms the dress into a slightly more revealing but still decent version by speaking some magic words,

and enters the conversation advertising the magic of her craft: "the one dress for every occasion".

Depending on the dialogue, Taarie may suggest that it can also serve as a negligee threating to put the PC in embarrassing situation.

With the PC paralyzed from shock, she utters some magic words starting the transformation.

Then she elaborates, that the transparency would increase with arousal.

And it just so happens that the PC has to admit visually, that the situation although embarrassing is also quite arousing.

 

As a real example for multistep changes, there is mod here on Lover's Lab that aims to replace armors when damaged with BD's replacer and then with TaWoBa.

Since you already have the idea of toys that can break, using your framework, this would just matter of editing (hundreds of) records and attaching scripts from your mod, I presume.

[VirginMarie]

7 hours ago, Mister X said:

What I thought of was literally a "ToysEffect_Custom" keyword, where the mod creator can build up some custom effect code.

Yes its good. Helpful ideas. I don't see the mod event as being "customized" though, as that would imply that "when" the mod event fires can be customized. I don't think the "when" needs to be customized, if there's some canned mod events, like "transformed" "transformedBack". You already have papyrus events for "onEquip" "onUnEquip" "changecontainer". So its a matter of defining the extra events that only Toys would know about.

 

7 hours ago, Psalam said:

There are a large number of already existing effects in the base Skyrim game that could otherwise simulate the results these are meant to achieve. A warming effect could replace a vibrator and a chilling effect could replace a shock for instance. 

Do you mean something like the effect seen when an actor is hit with frost or fire spells?

 

6 hours ago, Baltasarr80 said:

I have spoken with MaikCG about the Dwarven Cuirass ... If someone has the interest to use this Cuirass as a "Robotsuit" as an excample that could fuse with your body and insert "toys" into the pcs charakter as excample. I have no background/knowledge in coding and animation so i would like so see someone make use of this mod

I've actually looking into that mod in the past because I had thoughts (from someone else) similar to this for using in SLaV. I can see myself doing something with it in the not so near future, if someone else has not done it already. Lots of possibilities with those assets.

 

[Psalam]

3 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

Do you mean something like the effect seen when an actor is hit with frost or fire spells?

The vibrating and shocking spells achieve the goals of increasing arousal and inflicting pain. I simply gave two alternatives that could do much the same thing (i thought warmth for arousal and cold for pain) although, as I said, there are many, many alternatives already in the vanilla game. As @Baltasarr80 has suggested these could then be coupled with distinctive skin or aura changes making the effect more dramatic. Sound effects from fire of frost spells (or other things) could likewise be used. Regardless, for Toys to be truly effective in achieving the ends that you gave (at least as I understand them) you will want something that will increase arousal and something else that will cause pain and, quite possibly, something that will achieve both at the same time.

[VirginMarie]

6 hours ago, Baltasarr80 said:

If heating above a certain arousal could give you a redish color on your skin ...

I like this. Another visual to see your arousal level. I do skin color changes in a scene in SLaV (the spitroast/rebirth scene), it's not too hard but might be problematic for converting to SSE.

 

But like mercplatypus said, this feature really belongs inside Sexlab Aroused because it's not directly caused by toys. Its indirectly caused by Toys that are one of many things that effected your arousal. Beyond Sexlab Aroused, this is better done as part of a quest mod.

[VirginMarie]

4 hours ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

Toys work with only one item which is displayed and actually worn, and not by using two items.

Upon transformation, the item is replaced with the transformed version which may happen to have the same model.

I am not sure whether you actually replace the item or parts of it (armor add-on, scripts).

My idea was to design the mechanism in a flexible way by separately defining a trigger and a follow-up toy, which may or may not be possible in Skyrim's engine.

Yes no dual "inventory" and "render" armor items. Just a single armor item.

Upon transformation, the Armor Item is only swapped IF an alternate model has been defined. (with the other framework, when I do this, I end up with 4 Armor items. With Toys its 2 if you include the alt model). Unfortunately there's no means to script an Addon change. If there IS a super secret way to do that, I'd love to know how!

 

The purpose of the transformation is to give the visual of a changed device, and have that tied into escape.  This is where Toys can do all the work. 3 stages instead of 2 could be a future feature, if there is demand.

 

Now to create a quest mod that does what you describe in your examples, it's no longer about escape. The "events" that you need are all known by your quest mod, and not known by Toys. So the triggers are best left to the Quest mod since Toys can only let you know if the toy has transformed. You would just swap the Toys, doable using Toys or the other framework. Your quest ideas are great, but I don't think Toys needs anything more than I've defined, in order to help you make it happen.

 

[VirginMarie]

49 minutes ago, Psalam said:

Regardless, for Toys to be truly effective in achieving the ends that you gave (at least as I understand them) you will want something that will increase arousal and something else that will cause pain and, quite possibly, something that will achieve both at the same time.

The mechanism planned to cause the arousal is the keyword Toys_Arousal plus it's strength property. You define how much influence each toy has on arousal, if it is to have any. Then of course arousal is contributed to by orgasms and other outside influences.

 

Then as a RESULT of the arousal, we have effects such as transformation, and sound effects. I have 2 events planned, and not listed as an effect because they are not tied to a toy. They are events tied to arousal. They are called "Fondle Thyself" and "Delayed Orgasm" (which needs a better name), and they are both existing events I'm moving from SLaV into Toys (skin color change is not off the table, as being an event too, but I'd save that for later). Both will be adjustable in MCM and can be disabled.

 

Fondle Thyself is an animation that does as you might imagine (there are 5 fondle animations), and this works as you move about, not interrupting you at all.

 

Delayed Orgasm is a little more like the events in the other framework, but different. It's random animations from about 12 "pleasing yourself" sets of animations. They are not played through Sexlab, thus it's fast and built in. It will only occur when you are not busy in combat etc, and it does take away player controls. Pressing the hot key (Space by default) lets you fast-forward the scene.

 

So I'm thinking that, as a first release, this is enough, and there wont be vibrations and shock. I do agree there are lots of vanilla Skyrim effects to get creative with. I might do some, even for V1.

 

[Baltasarr80]

I thought that the cuirass could work as a ai that roams skyrim or gehts triggered by something and than installes the collars or plug or whatver on your charakter. The Cuirass himself. It could also put your body in different poses and positions if needed. You could try to get free if possible andif you are longer you get more items/toys (different toys) if you can struggle yourself free earlier you get only one or two toys inserted installed.

 

Like i said it could work as an ai thats gets set onto the streets of skyrim as a neutral npc relic from the Dwemer.

 

Perhaps as a starting questpoint of sorts for the framework

[VirginMarie]

1 hour ago, Baltasarr80 said:

I thought that the cuirass could work as a ai that roams skyrim or gehts triggered by something and than installes the collars or plug or whatver on your charakter. The Cuirass himself. It could also put your body in different poses and positions if needed. You could try to get free if possible andif you are longer you get more items/toys (different toys) if you can struggle yourself free earlier you get only one or two toys inserted installed.

 

Like i said it could work as an ai thats gets set onto the streets of skyrim as a neutral npc relic from the Dwemer.

It's a fine and creative idea for a content mod that uses Toys. This framework would be able to help someone write such a mod. But it would not be part of Toys, or Toy Story. Ideas like this are good to share here still. Knowing what mods might use Toys, helps to define what it should do.

 

When I looked at the Dwemer mod long ago, I thought of possibilities to make toys from the parts. It's another option for someone to consider doing. I'm not going to have the time to do it myself anytime soon

[Baltasarr80]

to bad but at least somewhat approved ?

[mercplatypus]

2 hours ago, Baltasarr80 said:

I thought that the cuirass could work as a ai that roams skyrim or gehts triggered by something and than installes the collars or plug or whatver on your character. The Cuirass himself. It could also put your body in different poses and positions if needed. You could try to get free if possible and if you are longer you get more items/toys (different toys) if you can struggle yourself free earlier you get only one or two toys inserted installed.

 

Like i said it could work as an ai thats gets set onto the streets of skyrim as a neutral npc relic from the Dwemer.

 

Perhaps as a starting questpoint of sorts for the framework

There is a mod called Chain Beasts that does something very similar to what you are describing with animated shackles roaming around Skyrim looking to ensnare you.  While that mod simply forces you to crawl to a set of BDSM furniture, sometimes over rather incredibly long distance, the concept you have for the Cuirass is really just an expansion of this idea.  Not really fitting for the framework itself but it should be doable provided some one gets the permissions and sets out to create the animated Cuirass.

[Baltasarr80]

3 minutes ago, mercplatypus said:

There is a mod called Chain Beasts that does something very similar to what you are describing with animated shackles roaming around Skyrim looking to ensnare you.  While that mod simply forces you to crawl to a set of BDSM furniture, sometimes over rather incredibly long distance, the concept you have for the Cuirass is really just an expansion of this idea.  Not really fitting for the framework itself but it should be doable provided some one gets the permissions and sets out to create the animated Cuirass.

Like i said the permission to use all assets of the cuirass are there. I asked MaikCG. and i know Chained Beast ... but i dont like the way it interferes with the general Mainquest. It interupts all Maingameplay and so not usable in this form...Like i said. This mod should work Solo as a handler of toys. You could add a subscript that he handles the same mechanics as a chained beast but  i thought of this only in form of toychar storage device that has fun with you and leaves you than helpless if that is your wish

[mercplatypus]

13 hours ago, Baltasarr80 said:

Like i said the permission to use all assets of the cuirass are there. I asked MaikCG. and i know Chained Beast ... but i dont like the way it interferes with the general Mainquest. It interupts all Maingameplay and so not usable in this form...Like i said. This mod should work Solo as a handler of toys. You could add a subscript that he handles the same mechanics as a chained beast but  i thought of this only in form of toychar storage device that has fun with you and leaves you than helpless if that is your wish

As I said, nothing really for the framework but for someone building a separate mod that ties into the framework.  I bring up chain beasts only as an example of something similar, though far more intrusive as you have said.  A mod author with a little know how should be able to build what you are asking about as it's own standalone mod supported by the framework.

[YojimboRatchet]

a lot of talk so far, and i see some good feedback here as well. although perhaps updating the main post with any accepted suggestions and / or changes would be easier to follow along with the daily comments and discussions. what i would love to see though with this, is something "new" so to speak. or something that has been missing in other mods that people would like to see possible with this framework. i know i have my own thoughts, but it's a bit hard to follow everything when it's all over the place and not centralized in some way, hence why i suggested updating the first post.

[VirginMarie]

8 hours ago, YojimboRatchet said:

updating the main post with any accepted suggestions and / or changes would be easier to follow along with the daily comments and discussions

I've been updating it for things that are mostly decided. There's been about 4 separate edits/additions so far. It's not tracking things in the "I'm still thinking about/have not got my mind around it" category.

 

EDIT: you made me think of sharing the video, and I've also overhauled the OP

 

8 hours ago, YojimboRatchet said:

what i would love to see though with this, is something "new" so to speak

There's a lot that's new. More that's "different". Without getting into the subtle things, I'd say the summary/highlights of what's new/different are as follows (I've made a copy of the OP and filtered it):

 

The Foundation 

1. Backward Compatibility Matters
2. Rock-solid Stability
3. Simplicity - Lightweight - Fast - Efficient
4. Fun > Realism
5. Everything Optional. Nothing Ever Forced - "Make it realistic to play with Toys, while also playing the rest of the game"
6. Built with SSE in mind. One codebase for both
7. Solid Documentation for Modders & End Users
8. NO...
   • No Animation Filter
   • No menus, or pop-up messages for Toys
   • No pop-up message ever, unless you have "Tips for First Time Users" ON in MCM
   • No tedious, repetitive methods of escaping from Toys
   • No events where you are stuck in place without a way to skip the scene

The Toys

• No chance of Toy breakage (there will be no hidden/broken Toy syndrome)
• Mod authors can make custom Toys with minimal effort (once they have the model)
• Single "Armor item" (the model asset) in CK (exception if doing a "Transforming" Toy)

Transforming Toys Escape Mechanic

• A Toy, including custom Toys from content mods, can "transform" based on Arousal Level, and/or Orgasm. Uses MCM settings
• A transformed Toy can optionally, have a different model (it looks different). You will hear it and see it change
  • For example, the Toy can appear melted (translucent), or changed, like it's disintegrating, or weakening
• A Transformed Toy can optionally fall off after some time, OR, optionally, be removed without a key, OR, optionally, be removed if having the correct key
• Examples:
  • Toy that melts (transforms) due to arousal, becomes translucent, and in this state, can be removed without a key
  • Toy that transforms upon orgasm, looks broken and then falls off. "Your powerful Dragonborn orgasm blows off the Chastity Belt!"
  • Toy that transforms due to arousal and orgasm, it may not look any different, but due to transformation, the correct key lets you remove it
  • Toy that transforms due to arousal, and cannot be removed because in this state the key does not work
• Mod events that mods could use as triggers. Examples: "Toy_Transformed" "Toy_Removed_By_User"

"Get Hit" Escape Mechanic

• If the Player is hit X times, the Toy falls off, for a Toy defined to use this feature. Handy for Heavy bondage toys, like a yoke
• Can be combined with Transformation. When hit it first transforms, then hit some more, it falls off. Can look like it was breaking

Toy Story

• There will be no quests within the framework. However, mercplatypus and I are already working on a separate Tutorial/Demo Content Mod called Toy Story. Toy Story will...
  • Introduce/demo Toys' mechanics to End Users
  • Serve as a Test Harness for all to use. It will exercise all of Toys' features
  • Serve as sample code for modders. Documentation will be within the source code
• Toy Story will include a Tribute to Zed the lost original Quests of the framework that shall not be named

Effects

• Fondle Thy-Self
• Delayed Orgasm
• Exhausted

Utility

• Busy check function, serve as a common check where mods "check-in" to say they are busy and check for other mods busy, such that we don't override each other's scenes. Would do its best to check for busyness from all mods, checking for active sexlab scenes and active scenes in the framework that shall not be named
• Scene initialization/termination. Includes the busy check, stripping, player controls, free cam

[VirginMarie]

A very early sneak preview of Toys in action...

 

• The test/demo shown includes manual equip/unequp/unlock with a key, and scripted (calls to the Toys API)
• Pay attention to the notifications
• Note that there are never any message boxes or menus. This will be the case for everything in toys
• When a toy of the same type is already worn, it is auto-swapped, but only if it's permitted to be removed
• Just for testing, a script is triggered with a hotkey "spacebar" to toggle equipping and unequipping the Anal Bell Chain. That's why when no inventory window is open, you see her jump
• The script, when unequipping, also gives her another key. The keys are consumed (optional) when used
• The verbose log matching this video capture follows

Spoiler

 

[12/15/2020 - 11:30:40AM] [Toys] Equiping Marie's Toys-Nipple Clamps
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:41AM] [Toys] Equiping Marie's Toys-Chastity Strap On
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:44AM] [Toys] Equiping Marie's Toys-Anal Pony Tail
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:49AM] [Toys] Attempting UnEquip of Marie's Toys-Nipple Clamps
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:49AM] [Toys] Equiping Marie's Toys-Nipple Clamps
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:49AM] [Toys] Toys-Nipple Clamps unlocked and removed
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:49AM] [Toys] Key Consumed
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:53AM] [Toys] Attempting UnEquip of Marie's Toys-Nipple Clamps
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:53AM] [Toys] Equiping Marie's Toys-Nipple Clamps
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:53AM] [Toys] Toys-Nipple Clamps cannot be removed
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:59AM] [Toys] Attempting UnEquip of Marie's Toys-Nipple Clamps
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:59AM] [Toys] Toys-Nipple Clamps cannot be removed
[12/15/2020 - 11:30:59AM] [Toys] Equiping Marie's Toys-Nipple Clamps
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:07AM] [Toys] TESTING Remove from script
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:07AM] [Toys] Toys-Anal Bell Chain is not worn. Unequip aborted.
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:19AM] [Toys] Attempting UnEquip of Marie's Toys-Nipple Clamps
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:19AM] [Toys] Toys-Nipple Clamps unlocked and removed
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:19AM] [Toys] Key Consumed
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:24AM] [Toys] Equiping Marie's Toys-Nipple Clamps
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:35AM] [Toys] Attempting UnEquip of Marie's Toys-Anal Pony Tail
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:35AM] [Toys] Toys-Anal Pony Tail cannot be removed
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:35AM] [Toys] Equiping Marie's Toys-Anal Pony Tail
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:39AM] [Toys] TESTING Equip from script
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:39AM] [Toys] Marie is wearing at least one Toy
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:39AM] [Toys] There is a conflicting Toy
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:39AM] [Toys] Toys-Anal Pony Tail is universal thus can be replaced
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:39AM] [Toys] Toys-Anal Bell Chain does not conflict, or can replace a universal toy. Equipping.
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:39AM] [Toys] Toys-Anal Bell Chain equipped.
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:54AM] [Toys] Attempting UnEquip of Marie's Toys-Anal Bell Chain
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:54AM] [Toys] Equiping Marie's Toys-Anal Pony Tail
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:54AM] [Toys] Toys-Anal Bell Chain cannot be removed
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:54AM] [Toys] Equiping Marie's Toys-Anal Bell Chain
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:57AM] [Toys] TESTING Remove from script
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:57AM] [Toys] Toys-Anal Bell Chain unequipped.
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:59AM] [Toys] TESTING Equip from script
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:59AM] [Toys] Marie is wearing at least one Toy
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:59AM] [Toys] Toys-Anal Bell Chain does not conflict, or can replace a universal toy. Equipping.
[12/15/2020 - 11:31:59AM] [Toys] Toys-Anal Bell Chain equipped.

 

 

 

 

[Scrab]

Which subgenres are you trying to support - or rather: How big will this default library be, how many different device types will the base frame contain? 

What are the outer edges of this mod - as in "how extreme can this become"

3 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

No Animation Filter

This one seems fairly restricting. I know why this decision has been made nevertheless its a useful tool if you introduce heavy bondage, gags and chastity

Those things are niche in some way but still part of.. the greater goal so to speak, at least from my perspective. Those "niche" things are obnoxious and almost everyone hates them but I promise you, having them gone will severely cut down on the potential that this mod may have and having them without a filter just begs for a lot of issues immersion wise

 

3 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

Everything Optional. Nothing Ever Forced - "Make it realistic to play with Toys, while also playing the rest of the game"

I already talked with someone about this because we had a similar talk about smth like this before and we agreed that things just get in the way more often than not - ending up being more obnoxious than anything else. Not fun to play, just frustrating. Realistic perhaps but immersion is only fun until it starts getting in your way 

Nevertheless, how "invasive" those things are should be up to how the Author uses them

 

Im not saying this ideology is wrong, I only want to note that making it "too user friendly" will in turn kill off the possibilities an author has to make use of them. Sometimes its important to make the user beg to visit oblivion to make sure that the story youre trying to tell really gets through to the user 

 

===

 

Indeed, a custom toy may solve this but a custom toy also forces a hard dependency and the point of a framework is to reduce the amount of work an author has to do (that sounded more mean than intended, my pardon) 

 

Which leads me to my final question:

What sort of mods should be using this frame?

[VirginMarie]

1 hour ago, Scrab said:

Which subgenres are you trying to support - or rather: How big will this default library be, how many different device types will the base frame contain? 

What are the outer edges of this mod - as in "how extreme can this become"

Skyrim subgenre is Fantasy/Scandinavian, and seems inspired by things similar to Conan. I tend to prefer toys that are more ancient and medieval themed to fit. But Toys will not put limits on taste in toy style. I will tend to build the default base library with this lore in mind though.

 

At first I was thinking I'd keep the library of toys small, but some recent implementation work has led me to realize that it will not be hard to support hundreds of toys. I still see it as not a huge base library included, but instead "make it easy for others to add toys themselves". Toys Packs.

 

1 hour ago, Scrab said:

No Animation Filter

I'm not against realism (toy-appropriate-animations). But I think realism is not worth it if at the expense of fun. Things that simply do not work (non-functional scenes) are an absolute NO. Lack of variety, seeing the very same animation over an over, is also an absolute NO. If you solve the non-functional scenes problem, you are still left with the lack of variety problem, and the delayed start of scenes which is a NO for combat oriented love. The overarching problem is that there is no good winning design approach to use. Nothing that is practical. Until such good design becomes apparent, I'd not even try to make an animation filter. But if someone came up with a workable design, I'd dive in wholeheartedly to make it work, and this is where it stands for Toys.

 

I've thought about this a lot. If the animation filter had more options for the mod to use, and for the user, could it be controlled on at an individual scene level, combined with some user choices, and make sense? The answer I come up with is "NO", because another big NO for me is lack of consistency. Let's say we have some scenes removing heavy bondage toys automatically, so there are available animations to play, but in other scenes we don't. Well, firstly, the mod's quest/story, may not fit with that. In SLaV, heavy bondage does not come off unless Nocturnal jumps out of the shadows and removes it. Can't have toys just popping off. Then if we have scenes that can't deal with filtering at all to be fun, like love in combat (defeat and SLaV's Love Shout are examples), well, then why are we having Toy-appropriate-animations only sometimes? Is this a a bug (the user will think)?

 

Come up with a design (not the technical design, just the functional), that:

• keeps it fun/no repetition and limited animations
• no auto-anything that does not fit with what the mod wants, no doing things that make the user think it's bugged due to inconsistency
• gives mods and users lots of options, nothing forced

Then I would implement it in Toys, with no broken scenes. It's not the technical challenge, its the design one. I think the only scenario that makes that list doable, is to have a whole lot more animations available for bondage, and I'm no animator.

[mercplatypus]

The point of not having an animation filter is to ensure that the framework doesn't cause interference with other mods.  It will still support creating specific toys that block animations but it will be the mod author who creates the specific toy that will decide if that is what they want the toy to do with their mod.  The difference is that it will not be forced universally on all mod authors or users the way current systems are set up.  This should allow more freedom for mod authors to create exactly what they want without the headache of having to accept a whole bunch of extra stuff that they may never use.

 

 

[VirginMarie]

53 minutes ago, Scrab said:

Nevertheless, how "invasive" those things are should be up to how the Author uses them

I agree, it's up to the mod author. There will be nothing in Toys that stops the mod from making things hard. Examples:

• A pony tail might be locked on you, forcing you to crawl, if not in combat, but it's as easy as getting a universal key to remove it
• OR, that same Toy might NOT force crawling, and be removable just by having your arousal high enough that it has transformed and falls off
• OR, that same Toy might be hardcore, force the crawl, and only be removal-able when you complete a quest, and give you orgasms like crazy

Toys will make it very easy to make that toy, in all variations, and more. Heck, why not make all 3 versions. I made this exact Pony Tail already. Takes about 10 minutes once you know how, and have the model or permission to use such model.

 

1 hour ago, Scrab said:

What sort of mods should be using this frame?

The aim is that it will give authors the means to make anything bondage related. 

[Scrab]

32 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

At first I was thinking I'd keep the library of toys small, but some recent implementation work as led me to realize that it will not be hard to support hundreds of toys. I still see it as not a huge base library included, but instead "make it easy for others to add toys themselves". Toys Packs

When I first saw this thread what came to my mind was "how would this mod work with existing mods" - because a framework that isnt used is useless 

So I was thinking "what if I let the user choose which framework they want to use" meaning "could I rewrite my "mod that shall not be named"-integration with this one" which lead to my question "Does this framework offer the things I need to sufficiently offer people this choice", because I cant put a hard dependency on this framework in my mod 

 

My next question would then be "what about the niche mods out there. What about the Chastity mods and the mods that seem to have some weird fetish for not allowing you to play the bloody game". Because, lets be real if this framework works out as you hope it will, people will most likely think about "what is already there and can be reimagined with this framework" before coming up with unique ideas 

Now I have a weird kink for soft integrations. I have some deep hatred for putting a hard dependency on everything unless this everything is designed around this dependency whichs why I got.. uh... er.... why my excitement fell down a lot when I read "small library". Im also lazy. and I dont like working with meshes and animations and all that

 

I like the idea of keeping it Lore friendly - though I am a bit scared about the "quality" of textures (shiny metal > rusty metal ?) This wasnt really what I was after either. Its more about the diversity of specific devices. "Will the framework support the idea of many many different kinks without forcing the author to start looking for models"

 

30 minutes ago, mercplatypus said:

It will still support creating specific toys that block animations

I see

32 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

no repetition and limited animations

Pain with animations is always that theres no propery library for animators to reference when the authors tag their work. Theoretically all a good filter should do is add (e.g.) oral to the supressed tags when the takers mouth is blocked by smth but unfortunately that rarely ever works, huh

Bound animations will always be a pain until someone decides to make a big collection of them

 

Thinking about it, one more question:
What about Furniture? 

[VirginMarie]

2 hours ago, Scrab said:

When I first saw this thread what came to my mind was "how would this mod work with existing mods" - because a framework that isnt used is useless 

So I was thinking "what if I let the user choose which framework they want to use" meaning "could I rewrite my "mod that shall not be named"-integration with this one" which lead to my question "Does this framework offer the things I need to sufficiently offer people this choice", because I cant put a hard dependency on this framework in my mod 

I've been thinking about this lots as its key. I can tell you that atm, for testing "how hard is it to convert over", I have my mod SLaV, with a hard dependency now on both Toys and the other framework. Some of the toys are already converted over, others are not. Works fine. But the goal is to not need both frameworks. Consistency is king. I'd not release SLaV using both.

 

I think the exception might be if you are a bondage shop, or other mod that is focused on the whole world of toys. Then it might make sense to support both frameworks for some time. The Library of toys will build up over time, starting off smaller, but not as small as I first imagined either, as I can make the toy conversion in 10mins each. It's more about permissions, and supporting multiple body types in Bodyslide, and being able to convert cleanly to SSE. 

 

2 hours ago, Scrab said:

I have some deep hatred for putting a hard dependency on everything

I have a deep hatred for putting dependency on anything at all lol. SLaV originally needed SlaveTats, and ZAP, in addition to what it needs now. I've stripped out ZAP and SlaveTats, doing the same features in SLaV myself. Next up is the other framework. Toys needs to meet the needs of most mods, in such a way that they can make a clean transition. 

2 hours ago, Scrab said:

"Will the framework support the idea of many many different kinks without forcing the author to start looking for models"

Yes within reason. And if people on this thread start asking for specifics, that will help to shape what is done earlier. Better yet, maybe we get some wanting to make the first Toys Packs in time for V1 release.

2 hours ago, Scrab said:

What about Furniture? 

I've been waiting for this question. Furniture will not be in V1. If there is demand I'd add it once it's clear want people want, if that need is something a framework can fill.

 

SLaV uses loads of furniture. All cases of it are very custom scenes, although I do have many random, happens anywhere cases too. I've not got my mind around how that could translate into something a framework can help with. ZAP is only the models and animations. Its not like there is any API. And then the new furniture in that other framework, it would not in any way support what I've done with furniture in SLaV. To me, furniture as a station that you just walk up to and use, and try to escape from is of no interest.

 

In summary... I'm a big fan, and user of furniture, but I don't have a clear idea, yet, of how to translate that into a framework. It's similar to the animation filter. Would love to do it, but not without a good meaningful design.

 

[VirginMarie]

Harm Effect

I've updated the OP to include a "harm effect. A toy can cause the player to lose health. Adjustable and so forth, happening in random intervals over time.

 

Playing Nice with other Toys from other Mods

(This is not updated in the OP yet)

One of the most difficult things for a toys-based-mod author to do, is play nice with other mods. At least for me, when developing SLaV, this was the hardest thing for me, as a new mod author. In fact it can be just as challenging playing nice with the toys you equipped from your own mod if it has multiple quests in parallel, and events that can happen.

 

Example:

• Mod X has a quest that is about to start where an NPC equips the player with a Chastity Belt-ish toy, but its not just a Chastity Belt. This Toy is a combo Chastity and Corset. It's ToysType_Pelvis and ToysType_Torso with ToysBlock_Vaginal and ToysBlock_Anal
• The Player is already wearing a few toys from Mod Y. Mod Y's toys include one worn toy with ToysType_Pelvis, and one worn toy with ToysType_Torso
• Mod Y's Pelvis toy is essential for a quest. If it's removed by another mod, the quest is broken. The other toy however is cosmetic only

Mod X needs to NOT remove that pelvis Toy, otherwise it's not playing nice at all, but it's fine to remove the torso toy. Now it's also possible that removing that pelvis toy makes sense during a short scene, so long as its put back on. Mod X would need to know though.

 

The Toys feature I'm planning starts with the premise that there's really 3 possibilities for what a mod author wants:

1. The toy should not ever be removed (ToysNoRemoval)
2. It's fine to remove the toy temporarily, as long as it's put back on (ToysPermitTempStorage)
3. The toy can be freely and permanently removed (no keyword used... I'm dropping the keyword ToysUniversal as its not needed)

Combined with this, we have:

• Did the toy get equipped by the player or the mod (manual or scripted)?
• Did the toy get equipped by your own mod, or by another mod?

The HandleToy() function, which currently takes care of Equipping, Swapping, and Unequipping (all in one), also checks for ToysType conflicts. It returns an error telling you there is a conflict.

1. If "ToysNoRemoval" AND the toy is not from your own mod, your mod is going to need to have that NPC say "Sorry we can't proceed until you get rid of that Toy". Toys' functions will not replace that toy
2. If "ToysPermitTempStorage", you have the option to use HandleToy() again, with the temp storage option (or call it that way always). Toys will temporally store the conflicting toy(s) for you, and make it easy to later, put anything in storage back on. Your mod won't need to manage this stuff. You can use this temp storage feature for toys from your own mod too. The NPC could say "I'm removing those toys you wear, and placing them in my chest. I will be putting them back on when we are finished".
3. Otherwise, HandleToy() will have not returned any error, and it goes ahead and swaps the toy

I plan to have a UI related to this in the MCM, maybe in V1, or shortly after V1. A "Toys Worn" tab. You will see all worn Toys, be able to see some of their stats. There will be a section to see what is in storage too, and which mod equipped them. And I have some ideas for this UI allowing the end user to change some toy features (customize), unless the mod has disabled the end user customize feature. Will talk about the customize feature later when I'm getting into that design.

 

Thoughts? Ideas? Concerns?

 

[(\x.x x) (\x.x x)]

1 hour ago, VirginMarie said:

The HandleToy() function, which currently takes care of Equipping, Swapping, and Unequipping (all in one), also checks for ToysType conflicts. It returns an error telling you there is a conflict.

Will this support multiple toys at once for outfits (like Pony Girl deliveries)? I am asking because the similar function of the other framework felt really low-level.

And if you were putting them on to fast, there were stability issues.

(Also I did not appreciate that I had to remember whether true was equip or unequip.)

1 hour ago, VirginMarie said:

I plan to have a UI related to this in the MCM, maybe in V1, or shortly after V1. A "Toys Worn" tab. You will see all worn Toys, be able to see some of their stats. There will be a section to see what is in storage too, and which mod equipped them. And I have some ideas for this UI allowing the end user to change some toy features (customize), unless the mod has disabled the end user customize feature. Will talk about the customize feature later when I'm getting into that design.

 

Thoughts? Ideas? Concerns?

 

Awesome, especially the "which mod" info.

[VirginMarie]

37 minutes ago, (\x.x x) (\x.x x) said:

Will this support multiple toys at once for outfits (like Pony Girl deliveries)? I am asking because the similar function of the other framework felt really low-level.

And if you were putting them on to fast, there were stability issues.

Good question I'm glad you are making me think about this.

 

HandleToy() is for one toy at a time. In its simplest use case, you need only an actor and a toy (2 parameters). With those 2, it will equip or swap when no conflict.

 

You can fire off multiple HandleToy() calls at once, but you'd be checking for error on each sequentially, if your quest needs to care. I think many uses cases want exactly that. There are many use cases where you don't need to "care" because the function by default is only equipping when there is no conflict (i.e. the quest is going to proceed regardless of how many toys can be put on, or you only care about one of them so you do that one first and check).

 

I might make a function that is for pre-checking, in case you want to NOT proceed at all, if you require all the toys you want to be equipped, to be equipped. Although the single function as it stands now, with a "pre-check" parameter, might serve the purpose the same. Either way, there will be need to be able to do that.

 

I can see having the option of the "Toy" parameter, be passed as an array, so it could be multiple toys at once, but this would not save lines of code as you'd be still filling each toy into the array beforehand.  Something to keep in mind for me though. Now the errors would need to be reported in an array too. Seems over complicated on the surface.

 

I'm aware of the stability concern, which is why I'm deigning for simplicity. For example the toys do not have an Inventory and Render part (pair), but only a single part. Much less to go wrong. And I refuse to release something that has stability problems. Either it works, or it will not be offered until the design is right. There will be stress testing.