Simple Slavery Plus Plus

[PussieTepulus]

Fixed the problem.  Adler i9 is the problem, but the biggest problem was Creation Kit.  Instead of everyone saying it cannot happen.  Be more useful.  Troubleshoot.  This is what was needed and knew nothing of this mod to Creation Kit.  SSE Creation Kit Fixes Update at Skyrim Special Edition Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)  The best way to get everything including ESM to Form 44.  Yet all you which say it is impossible well is possible and should refer people to this mod for Creation Kit.  Steam Creation Kit is infested with DRM.

[CaptainJ03]

7 hours ago, PussieTepulus said:

Instead of everyone saying it cannot happen.  Be more useful. 

This is a bloody mod page, not some hightech computer helpdesk. HexBolt is developing his mods on LE and until now it just worked on SE.

Should be easy to put a warning at "SE compatible?" - NO

[HexBolt8]

31 minutes ago, CaptainJ03 said:

HexBolt is developing his mods on LE and until now it just worked on SE.

You might have inadvertently confused how this mod is built with other mods that I maintain.  I develop Simple Slavery on LE, but it is then converted for SE by Herowynne, so there are separate LE and SE downloads.  Except for one doomsayer, the mod has worked well for SE players.  (Although people do sometimes have problems, notably with getting the right Fuz Ro-D-oh version, those problems are not related to ability to use the SE version of the mod on Skyrim SE.)

[Herowynne]

8 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

I develop Simple Slavery on LE, but it is then converted for SE by Herowynne, so there are separate LE and SE downloads.  Except for one doomsayer, the mod has worked well for SE players.

I do not have an Alder Lake i9 system, so I have not tested this mod’s SE conversion on that type of CPU.

 

When I do the conversion to SE, I leave the form type as form 43, because this mod does not have any features that would require form 44.

 

Furthermore, it seems unlikely that the form 43 versus form 44 difference would have any impact when running on Alder Lake i9 instead of other CPUs.

[Seeker999]

19 hours ago, PussieTepulus said:

Fixed the problem. 

I'm glad you got it working. Now you can enjoy playing your game!

[HexBolt8]

2 hours ago, Herowynne said:

Furthermore, it seems unlikely that the form 43 versus form 44 difference would have any impact when running on Alder Lake i9 instead of other CPUs.

Yep.  Intel's 12th generation processors ("Alder Lake") are not that new.  12th gen launched toward the end of 2021.  It's not rare or exotic.  Any bizarre problems will have been flushed out by now.  Its successor, 13th generation "Raptor Lake", launched in October 2022, so 12th gen is no longer even "next gen".  Skyrim installations can certainly face a variety of problems, but CPUs don't care about a form number.

 

Thank you for your work to make the SE version of Simple Slavery available.  You've always been there when a conversion is needed, and you're a good second set of eyes to ensure that I don't accidentally leave something out.

[Pamatronic]

6 hours ago, Herowynne said:

because this mod does not have any features that would require form 44.

Just out of curiosity, Is "Requiring" a certain form number even a thing?
Correct me if I´m wrong, but I always though that those form numbers are just a piece of metadata to identify on which version of the CK the plugin was made. Does the Game itself actually look at them?

[Herowynne]

15 minutes ago, Pamatronic said:

Just out of curiosity, Is "Requiring" a certain form number even a thing?
Correct me if I´m wrong, but I always though that those form numbers are just a piece of metadata to identify on which version of the CK the plugin was made. Does the Game itself actually look at them?

 

My understanding is that the Skyrim SE game engine can correctly interpret all form records less than or equal to form 44.

 

If you examine the form records in the plugin files included with Skyrim SE, you will find a few old form records, such as form 39 and others. That means the SE game engine can certainly read old form records.

 

As for new SE game engine features that require form 44 records, I refer to Mator's reply to this Reddit post that lists the new plugin records for form 44 and old existing records with that have new fields for SE.

 

New Records in SSE

• LENS
• VOLI
• SPGD (from FO4)

 

Changed records in SSE

• MATO - changed Directional Material Data (L9895-L9929)
• STAT - changed Direction Material (L12783-L12797)
• WATR - changed Visual Data (L12920-L13041), added Flow Normals (L13057)
• WTHR - added volumetric lighting (L13426-L13432), added LENS flare reference (L13442)
• WEAP - changed Critical Data (L13159-L13183)

 

Changes subrecords in SSE

• VMAD - added "large references"

 

I do not actually know how the game engine works, but my guess is that the game engine may examine the form number of a record in order to determine how to read the record into memory. For old form records such as form 39 or form 43, the game engine likely has code to read the form's fields in the old format. For form 44 records containing fields that differ from earlier form versions, the game engine likely has separate code to read the form's fields in the new format. Please keep in mind that this is speculation on my part.

 

The key point with respect to this mod SS++ is that this mod doesn't use any of the new SE features that have record changes, so this mod doesn't need form 44 records.

 

I hope that helps explain what I meant. ?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Herowynne

[HexBolt8]

32 minutes ago, Pamatronic said:

Does the Game itself actually look at them?

I believe that what Herowynne was saying is that SE has a few features that LE lacks, so if a mod uses SE-specific features then it should be saved as form 44 so that the data for those records gets saved properly.  Since I develop on LE, I can't add SE-only features (nor would this mod really benefit from them even I could), so it's a non-issue for SS++.  Some mod management tools do examine the form number and they will warn the player if there seems to be a mismatch, but I don't think any of them actually require a particular form number.

 

Edit:  Herowynne beat me to it.  

Edited January 2, 2023 by HexBolt8

[PussieTepulus]

41 minutes ago, Pamatronic said:

Just out of curiosity, Is "Requiring" a certain form number even a thing?
Correct me if I´m wrong, but I always though that those form numbers are just a piece of metadata to identify on which version of the CK the plugin was made. Does the Game itself actually look at them?

It did happen about 7 or 8 years ago when LE was Form 40 and switched to Form 43.  Every mod which is Form 40 does not work.  They did not have a conversion from Form 40 to Form 43 which there is now.  In 11 years, we saw where we could not convert Forms 40 to Form 43 to where we can convert Forms 43 to Form 44.  Arthmoor still to this very day defends that SE needs Form 44.

 

Form 40 was DDR3 was already out and Form 43 was when DDR4 came out.  Form 44 was still DDR4, not DDR5.  Form 40 was when Windows 7 was out and Form 43 was when Windows 8 came out and Form 44 Windows 10.  I can even do CPU to, but that is too long.  Modders are the best in the community so now if there is a problem you can tell users where to get a fix for Creation Kit and convert Form 43 mods to Form 44, easier.  I thought it would be long and difficult and only took 5 seconds per mod.

[PussieTepulus]

Hex and Pamatronix if you need a Form 44 conversion, I can do them now.

[Pamatronic]

9 minutes ago, PussieTepulus said:

*Incoherent Rambling*

[HexBolt8]

1 hour ago, PussieTepulus said:

It did happen about 7 or 8 years ago when LE was Form 40 and switched to Form 43. Every mod which is Form 40 does not work.

Once again, not true.  I understand that you're trying to help, but your information is really bad.  Better to stop before some poor newcomer reads this stuff and thinks it's true.

 

I have old mods in my game.  I never left LE, so I never had to replace them.  Here's an example:

 

 

Form 40 works fine in my game.

 

Many mods are interchangeable between LE and SE without conversion, as long as their assets are compatible (principally meshes and animations are not compatible and must be ported).  I use several SE mods in my LE game without conversion.  One of the mods that I support, Submissive Lola: The Resubmission, is a large Form 43 mod (esp file is 1194 KB) that works out of the box on SE.  SE is perfectly happy with that Form 43 esp file.

 

1 hour ago, PussieTepulus said:

Form 40 was DDR3 was already out and Form 43 was when DDR4 came out.

Now you're blaming RAM for incompatibility.  Yesterday, it was CPUs.  A mod and its form version isn't limited to a certain kind of RAM or CPU.  There are players running today's mods on ancient potatoes.

 

All these incompatibilities you're talking about, and DRM conspiracy theories, and the "Skyrim Armageddon" business, are demonstrably incorrect in the face of the vast number of players who aren't having these problems.

 

The sky isn't falling.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by HexBolt8

[BigOnes69]

15 hours ago, Herowynne said:

I do not have an Alder Lake i9 system, so I have not tested this mod’s SE conversion on that type of CPU.

 

When I do the conversion to SE, I leave the form type as form 43, because this mod does not have any features that would require form 44.

 

Furthermore, it seems unlikely that the form 43 versus form 44 difference would have any impact when running on Alder Lake i9 instead of other CPUs.

The only thing that might make a difference is memory bios settings xmp for Intel and Docp for AMD. Skyrim crashes more often if you turn those on. I have confirmed this multiple times.

[BigOnes69]

7 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

 

Now you're blaming RAM for incompatibility.  Yesterday, it was CPUs.  A mod and its form version isn't limited to a certain kind of RAM or CPU.  There are players running today's mods on ancient potatoes.

 

All these incompatibilities you're talking about, and DRM conspiracy theories, and the "Skyrim Armageddon" business, are demonstrably incorrect in the face of the vast number of players who aren't having these problems.

 

The sky isn't falling.

 

The only thing that might make a difference is memory bios settings xmp for Intel and Docp for AMD. Skyrim crashes more often if you turn those on. I have confirmed this multiple times. The chip on memory that controls the memory speed is more modern than skyrim programming so there is some sort of incompatibility there. I think running an ENB probably makes this worse.

[Leoosp]

9 hours ago, BigOnes69 said:

The only thing that might make a difference is memory bios settings xmp for Intel and Docp for AMD. Skyrim crashes more often if you turn those on. I have confirmed this multiple times. The chip on memory that controls the memory speed is more modern than skyrim programming so there is some sort of incompatibility there. I think running an ENB probably makes this worse.

 

@BigOnes69 @HexBolt8 It's not just the chip on the supported memory being newer and faster, but also a technology on that CPU that is a definite source of the issue namely NUMA (Non-uniform memory access) and couple it with Windows 11's  support for Intel Thread Director (ITD). Which can add a serious speed boost for gaming, so thus programs which aren't prepared during development for this will experience issues. As the speed introduces an increased likely hood of race condition situations, so given the nature of Bethesda's Skyrim (SE and AE) engine the non-uniform memory access causes issues with accessing content and interpreting it. As it expects the memory accesses to be performed in a uniform manner which its code was developed for, when reading the format of files (e.g. esp, esm, esl etc). As well as other file format and runtime problems. When and/or if other competitors develop their answer to this technology the issue will likely become more pronounced, especially as this generation or newer of Intel processor becomes more commonplace. That CPU also introduces a extremely fast max clock speed up to 5.5 Ghz un-overclocked).

 

Add to this unexpected additional data which is incorrect (not the right format - Form 43 instead of Form 44) and this additionally increases issues as that will likely be treated possibly as corruption either by the program (game - Skyrim SE) or the CPU itself. So eventually the game crashes as the corrupt data is too much for it to handle.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Leoosp

[Herowynne]

34 minutes ago, Leoosp said:

 

@BigOnes69 @HexBolt8 It's not just the chip on the supported memory being newer and faster, but also a technology on that CPU that is a definite source of the issue namely NUMA (Non-uniform memory access) and couple it with Windows 11's  support for Intel Thread Director (ITD). Which can add a serious speed boost for gaming, so thus programs which aren't prepared during development for this will experience issues. As the speed introduces an increased likely hood of race condition situations, so given the nature of Bethesda's Skyrim (SE and AE) engine the non-uniform memory access causes issues with accessing content and interpreting it. As it expects the memory accesses to be performed in a uniform manner which its code was developed for, when reading the format of files (e.g. esp, esm, esl etc). As well as other file format and runtime problems. When and/or if other competitors develop their answer to this technology the issue will likely become more pronounced, especially as this generation or newer of Intel processor becomes more commonplace. That CPU also introduces a extremely fast max clock speed up to 5.5 Ghz un-overclocked).

 

Add to this unexpected additional data which is incorrect (not the right format - Form 43 instead of Form 44) and this additionally increases issues as that will likely be treated possibly as corruption either by the program (game - Skyrim SE) or the CPU itself. So eventually the game crashes as the corrupt data is too much for it to handle.

 

Your first paragraph makes sense. A faster CPU can expose race conditions.

 

Your second paragraph doesn't make sense. The SE game engine supports both form 43 and form 44 records.

[Leoosp]

20 minutes ago, Herowynne said:

 

Your first paragraph makes sense. A faster CPU can expose race conditions.

 

Your second paragraph doesn't make sense. The SE game engine supports both form 43 and form 44 records.

 

@Herowynne Alright, so it supports both but are there any records in Form 43 that aren't in Form 44 and vice versa? Bearing in mind what I said in regards to the race condition situation as well as NUMA and file format reading including interpretation.

 

Add to this the way Papyrus Scripts have been developed on systems up to this point which runs in a VM which inherits the game engine's limitations. Again on top of this the SKSE64 dll plugins and SKSE64 itself which also need to be prepared for this during development, in order to not introduce point(s) of failure.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Leoosp

[HexBolt8]

1 hour ago, Leoosp said:

are there any records in Form 43 that aren't in Form 44 and vice versa?

To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in form 43 that isn't in form 44, but form 44 does have unique records (Herowynne listed them above).  Additionally, the critical damage entry for weapons is incompatible between the two forms.  Usually, that last one is not a concern (only for mods that add or modify weapons), but it's something to watch out for.  Likewise, I wouldn't advise running a form 44 esp on LE if it uses record types that are unique to SE.  Again, usually it's not an issue; just check whether the mod uses any of those records.

 

SKSE plugins are a separate discussion.  I don't think there's any situation in which an SKSE plugin can be used in a different game version.  Likewise, BSA format is incompatible between LE and SE (simply extracting the files and deleting the BSA gets around that).

 

Circling back to the start, the original issue was whether a form 43 mod that has been otherwise updated for SE is okay to use on SE, on both older and newer computers.  The track record supports that it is.

Edited January 3, 2023 by HexBolt8

[Leoosp]

37 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in form 43 that isn't in form 44, but form 44 does have unique records (Herowynne listed them above).  Additionally, the critical damage entry for weapons is incompatible between the two forms.  Usually, that last one is not a concern (only for mods that add or modify weapons), but it's something to watch out for.  Likewise, I wouldn't advise running a form 44 esp on LE if it uses record types that are unique to SE.  Again, usually it's not an issue; just check whether the mod uses any of those records.

 

SKSE plugins are a separate discussion.  I don't think there's any situation in which an SKSE plugin can be used in a different game version.  Likewise, BSA format is incompatible between LE and SE (simply extracting the files and deleting the BSA gets around that).

 

Circling back to the start, the original issue was whether a form 43 mod that has been otherwise updated for SE is okay to use on SE, on both older and newer computers.  The track record supports that it is.

 

@HexBolt8 How about the values in the records for Form 43 vs Form 44 do they have identical valid values (correct expected value) possibilities or are they different? If different then the issue about newer computers vs older computers is very important, as race conditions and NUMA in Alder Lake Intel CPU throws this off by quite a lot. See my post from about 2 hours ago and @Herowynne response to it.

 

SKSE plugins may not be usable between game versions (LE vs SE) however some plugins access records from Form 43 and Form 44 Skyrim plugins in SE, the reading and interpreting that data by the plugin is dependent on the above post by me earlier.

 

Before Intel's Alder Lake CPU the processor would be accessing memory in a uniform manner, with that new processor it disrupts this by being able to do this non-uniformly. Which is much faster when gaming as it is more efficient (takes less time to do so) so more actions can be achieved when gaming due to the memory accesses.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Leoosp

[HexBolt8]

29 minutes ago, Leoosp said:

How about the values in the records for Form 43 vs Form 44 do they have identical valid values (correct expected value) possibilities or are they different?

Other than the weapon critical damage field (which is an oddball because it's a different size field in form 43 and 44), I'm not aware of any difference in valid values going from 43 to 44.  The devs have earned their share of criticism for this and that, but they did a pretty good job of maintaining forward compatibility, probably because it benefited them.

Edited January 3, 2023 by HexBolt8

[BigOnes69]

13 hours ago, Herowynne said:

 

Your first paragraph makes sense. A faster CPU can expose race conditions.

 

Your second paragraph doesn't make sense. The SE game engine supports both form 43 and form 44 records.

I was talking memory settings in the Bios and the DOCP setting affecting Skyrim. It has nothing to do with form 43 or 44.

[BigOnes69]

11 hours ago, Leoosp said:

 

@HexBolt8 How about the values in the records for Form 43 vs Form 44 do they have identical valid values (correct expected value) possibilities or are they different? If different then the issue about newer computers vs older computers is very important, as race conditions and NUMA in Alder Lake Intel CPU throws this off by quite a lot. See my post from about 2 hours ago and @Herowynne response to it.

 

SKSE plugins may not be usable between game versions (LE vs SE) however some plugins access records from Form 43 and Form 44 Skyrim plugins in SE, the reading and interpreting that data by the plugin is dependent on the above post by me earlier.

 

Before Intel's Alder Lake CPU the processor would be accessing memory in a uniform manner, with that new processor it disrupts this by being able to do this non-uniformly. Which is much faster when gaming as it is more efficient (takes less time to do so) so more actions can be achieved when gaming due to the memory accesses.

What you are saying is the XMP memory chip on memory chips AMD calls it DOCP. The settings to enable this are in the Motherboard bios. It has nothing to do with form 43 44. It adjusts the voltage, freq, and amperage to match the freq of the type of memory you purchased. If not it will run at the motherboard frequency of 2133.  When you enable it it causes Skyrim to crash more often. I have confirmed this. The memory settings in Skyrim are dated and I believe this is why. I believe ENBs can fudge this even more with its memory access settings. There is probably someone that knows how to change INI settings to get around this but I have not seen anything yet.

[2Grwjk52FF]

How can I stop Simple Slavery++ LE from triggering Death Alternative when arrested by guards with Prison Overhaul? I set Prison Overhaul P. DA quest priority to 99, every other quest is lower than that, SS++ DA priority is 80 and SS+ still randomly triggers and my char gets teleported to the slave market instead of being marched to jail as it's supposed to be.

 

 

1 time a guard managed to teleport to the market after me, I was able to talk to him and he teleported me back to whiterun lol.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by 2Grwjk52FF

[HexBolt8]

17 minutes ago, 2Grwjk52FF said:

How can I stop Simple Slavery++ LE from triggering Death Alternative when arrested by guards with Prison Overhaul?

Simple Slavery does not trigger Death Alternative, but Death Alternative can trigger Simple Slavery.  If being arrested by guards with Prison Overhaul also causes Death Alternative to send the PC to the slave auction, that would be a support question for one of those two mods, probably Death Alternative.  In general, if the conditions are met in two mods to both do their things, both will try to do so unless one mod is aware of the other mod so that it can conditionally refrain from reacting.  At any rate, that's outside the control of Simple Slavery.