Computer upgrading

[ramrod126]

15 hours ago, myuhinny said:

Well my computers power button died last Thursday so had to finally buy a new one and went with this one. Cobratype poison gaming desktop PC - intel core i9 11900F, NVIDIA RTX 3080, 32GB DDR4, 2TB NVMe, AIO, windows 10 and a free 24” monitor. So all is fine for now other then I can't stand how windows tens start menu looks like.

There is a program called "classic shell" that allows you use a windows 7 style start menu with windows 10, 8 and, 8.1. I have been using it since the windows 8 days.

[landess]

30 minutes ago, ramrod126 said:

There is a program called "classic shell" that allows you use a windows 7 style start menu with windows 10, 8 and, 8.1. I have been using it since the windows 8 days.

 

That's a bit funny since I use the 'classic shell' for XP on my WIN 8.

 

As for WIN 10 - I just got used to it, but I made sure to hide the App style feature - that IS annoying! If you have a touch screen maybe that's what it was designed for.

[myuhinny]

@ramrod126

 

Thanks I downloaded it and now the start menu looks halfway decent and it removed all that cluster fuck and worthless shit that I had no interest in. It also looks like there is another one that took over for classic shell since it's no longer being updated since DEC of 2017 called open shell. https://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu

[ramrod126]

38 minutes ago, myuhinny said:

@ramrod126

 

Thanks I downloaded it and now the start menu looks halfway decent and it removed all that cluster fuck and worthless shit that I had no interest in. It also looks like there is another one that took over for classic shell since it's no longer being updated since DEC of 2017 called open shell. https://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu

Yeah, I've seen open shell but until classic shell stops doing what I want I see no reason to change.

[thaclone]

because I was curious, I just checked the prices for my graphics card...
in January I was lucky to get my hands on a Asus ROG Strix RTX3090 OC - for roughly 1.900€

if I check eBay (in europe) and other shops, they prices are around 2.500€ up to 4.200€

the world is going crazy... and mostly thanks to those stupid miners  

[legendarytoyou]

On 5/14/2021 at 3:21 PM, Mez558 said:

 

Right now, at least in the UK, the only way to get a current gen GPU is in a pre-built system. No one appears to have any on the shelf for sale.

Use Cutting Edge Gamer.  Its a leasing program mind you but they're very fair with no sur-charges and stick to a flat rate.  Its rent to own so keep in mind a GPU will show up on their website and literally be gone in about 3 maybe 4 hours due to the market being the way it is.

https://cuttingedgegamer.com

They can also supply PC parts depending on what you're gunning for but yeah currently the UK is being really bitchy about buying overseas because of this stupid scampemic.?

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

Pretty sure I paid too much for mine but I had the spare cash laying around and I'm happy with it. I built mine with the help of PC parts picker.com for anyone who is interested in attempting to build their own, there are also a number of YouTube channels than can help as far as picking good parts is concerned and for other things PC related (JayzTwoCents is one I would recommend).

 

My build list is as follows:

Corsair airflow 4000d case in black (I'm not sure I would recommend it to others though, unless you don't mind working in semi cramped cases.. I kind of wish I had gone with the be quiet! Pure Base 500DX Black Mid Tower ATX case, I might change to that one later though)

MSI MPG B550 Gaming Plus for the mother board

AMD RYZEN 7 3700X for the CPU

Fractal Design Celsius S24 - 240 mm Radiator - Silent Liquid CPU Cooler (I used two RGB fans on mine though)

Samsung 2TB 860 EVO SATA III M.2 Internal SSD for the main hard drive

Another 2 terabyte HDD for backup (I don't think the brand is really that important in this case)

8GB x 4 Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB ram (why 4 sticks for those wondering? Better performance or more frames while gaming, this is especially true with AMD CPUs)

A Corsair Rm850 X for the power supply (I'd rather have more voltage than I'm ever likely to need, which is actually not a bad line of thought from what I've heard)

6 InWin Sirius Loop Addressable RGB fans

ASUS KO GeForce RTX 3070 OC Graphics Card (I managed to get mine at a little over $900 out of timing and dumb luck that card is currently retailing at around $729.00)

 

Good luck to anyone out there intending to build a new PC in current times. Honestly going with a pre-built PC is not a bad idea provided you do your research, OR it can actually be a cheaper way of getting a hold of a GPU you want for your build (the rest of the parts can then be sold off or kept as backups).. which is sad quite frankly... stupid shortages, scalpers, and crypto miners.

[27X]

18 hours ago, t.ara said:

The difference between the 3090 and for example the 3080 or 3070 is really not that much. I use the 3090 since the time when I used the new I9 computer, but I also tested a 3070 (which is much more compact to build in) and it is quite close. I bought both because I want a replace if I suddenly one card is being damaged. A second reason was the problem to GET a GPU from a trader during that time of the world-wide-pandemie, In that accidental case of a damage I can exchange it and keep on working.

 

(LL´s page since a half week is horrible to be used-I get always timeout-errors after saving a post and I don ´t know if the edits are being overtaken or lost)

 

This is because you made the same mistake Supine and every ~~~tech savvy modder expert~~~ did.

 

The 30XX series has no dedicated scheduler, and requires a powerful CPU, and the CPU you paired it with isn't enough, period. There are exactly three CPUs + bridge capable of running the 3090 without bottlenecking and  none of them is an Intel and won't be until Alder Lake revisions are publicly available.

 

The AMD SKUs capable of actually running the 3090 at actual bandwith are also their most expensive and require PCIE 4. Anyone running a PCIE 3 Intel might as well buy an AMD and get a 20% boost average frame rate compared to any 30XX without ray tracing.

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

4 hours ago, 27X said:

 

This is because you made the same mistake Supine and every ~~~tech savvy modder expert~~~ did.

 

The 30XX series has no dedicated scheduler, and requires a powerful CPU, and the CPU you paired it with isn't enough, period. There are exactly three CPUs + bridge capable of running the 3090 without bottlenecking and  none of them is an Intel and won't be until Alder Lake revisions are publicly available.

 

The AMD SKUs capable of actually running the 3090 at actual bandwith are also their most expensive and require PCIE 4. Anyone running a PCIE 3 Intel might as well buy an AMD and get a 20% boost average frame rate compared to any 30XX without ray tracing.

The only reason I went with Nvidia this time around is due to some rendering issues that I got with my last AMD card, issues that seemed to be common across all AMD cards via report (namely I'm thinking of a bug that persists with reflex sights and a few other mods in Fallout 4, that made me wonder what other issues like that might be present).

 

This is making me wonder if I paired my card with the right CPU though, that's not something I had considered researching but something I can change if necessary.

[27X]

14 hours ago, Z0mBieP00Nani said:

The only reason I went with Nvidia this time around is due to some rendering issues that I got with my last AMD card, issues that seemed to be common across all AMD cards via report (namely I'm thinking of a bug that persists with reflex sights and a few other mods in Fallout 4, that made me wonder what other issues like that might be present).

 

This is making me wonder if I paired my card with the right CPU though, that's not something I had considered researching but something I can change if necessary.

 

If you're happy with your purchase it doesn't matter whether it's optimal or not. For this particular forum ENB compatibility is a very salient issue, but the fact remains that Skyrim is one game and buying a entire/particular card for one game is what a fetishist does, and unless you have a rig capable of outputting 8(not 4, 8)K/60 or use Blender and Maya or Cinema 4D daily there is absolutely no reason to own a 3090, nevermind you're not even getting out of the card what it's actually designed for, nevermind you just payed 2K-2.3K for a card that cost nVidia+ABI $550 to make.

 

Irony notwithstanding Intel + 6XXX simply works under dx12 better than 30XX from 15-30% for gaming and non3D content creation, and all the metrics to show this are freely available via the usual channels.

 

The 3070 is fine provided you have all 4 Dram slots populated for utilizing maximum bandwidth and the memory is suitably overclocked (and yes this is also mandatory if you expect to get full utilization out of the card.)

 

[KoolHndLuke]

Just throw my two cents in. You can have multiple OS installed in the same pc- even more if you have a hypervisor enabled and installed. Also, there is an option to run older programs in compatibility mode (Win 7 for instance)- though I've only tried it a couple of times and don't remember how well it worked. System specs from what I can see should be more than enough to play any new game for the next five years easy. 10 can be fussy to run legacy software on, but usually the community provides work-arounds if you dig a little.

 

Oh.. and you mentioned losing data on one of your drives I think? Might consider implementing a RAID config and/or backing up files in the Cloud. Cloud saved my ass once when I had to fall back on a really old system save to get rid of something.

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

7 hours ago, 27X said:

 

If you're happy with your purchase it doesn't matter whether it's optimal or not. For this particular forum ENB compatibility is a very salient issue, but the fact remains that Skyrim is one game and buying a entire/particular card for one game is what a fetishist does, and unless you have a rig capable of outputting 8(not 4, 8)K/60 or use Blender and Maya or Cinema 4D daily there is absolutely no reason to own a 3090, nevermind you're not even getting out of the card what it's actually designed for, nevermind you just payed 2K-2.3K for a card that cost nVidia+ABI $550 to make.

 

Irony notwithstanding Intel + 6XXX simply works under dx12 better than 30XX from 15-30% for gaming and non3D content creation, and all the metrics to show this are freely available via the usual channels.

 

The 3070 is fine provided you have all 4 Dram slots populated for utilizing maximum bandwidth and the memory is suitably overclocked (and yes this is also mandatory if you expect to get full utilization out of the card.)

 

I definitely like to mod the hell out of my games when possible, Fallout 4 and Skyrim being good examples of this, that being said I've noticed on occasion that with Skyrim the game will freeze for a split second before continuing, usually this seems to happen all the time when running around the wilderness. I've heard that brief pauses could be a sign that the GPU is hitting its VRAM limit and is then going outside of the card to tap into the RAM for more memory but when it does that it causes noticeable pauses in game. My current card has 8gigs of VRAM and I'm wondering if upgrading to something with at least 12 would be one way to fix that issue.. though I could try running the game in 1080 I guess, the problem is when I've tried that with other games the system doesn't seem to like that too much and has reverted the settings back to 1440, Skyrim might be different in that case though. The last game I tried this with (out of curiosity) is the Outer Worlds but that one glitched out and changed the settings back to 1440.

[27X]

Bethbryo games, particularly FO4, rely more on DRam speed than VRam speed. FO4's stuttering isn't caused by hitting the VRam limit, it's because the absolutely batshit amount of drawcalls generated per frame, particularly at the Institute and Diamond City.

 

That said 12 is definitely preferable to 8 at any resolution over 1080 under ENB.

[legendarytoyou]

1 hour ago, 27X said:

Bethbryo games, particularly FO4, rely more on DRam speed than VRam speed. FO4's stuttering isn't caused by hitting the VRam limit, it's because the absolutely batshit amount of drawcalls generated per frame, particularly at the Institute and Diamond City.

 

That said 12 is definitely preferable to 8 at any resolution over 1080 under ENB.

Kat is absolutely right.  Gamebyro based games, which Bethesda is renowned and ridiculed for, are more dependent on DRam than VRam really.  I'm sporting a new 6700xt backed with a Ryzen 5 and 32gig's of RAM and I'll still see stuttering from Fallout 4, a game that is now over 5 years old.  Bethesda is always getting flack from people on retiring the ancient Creation Engine which hopefully will happen after their merger with Microsoft.

 

Gamebyro needs to be taken out back and shot. ?

[SimulatedFantasyHero]

On 5/15/2021 at 11:50 PM, 27X said:

 

This is because you made the same mistake Supine and every ~~~tech savvy modder expert~~~ did.

 

The 30XX series has no dedicated scheduler, and requires a powerful CPU, and the CPU you paired it with isn't enough, period. There are exactly three CPUs + bridge capable of running the 3090 without bottlenecking and  none of them is an Intel and won't be until Alder Lake revisions are publicly available.

 

The AMD SKUs capable of actually running the 3090 at actual bandwith are also their most expensive and require PCIE 4. Anyone running a PCIE 3 Intel might as well buy an AMD and get a 20% boost average frame rate compared to any 30XX without ray tracing.

plz no bully. I was fortunate to somehow in this timeline get a RTX 3090 from BestBuy at MSRP. I have been rocking back an forth thinking about processors and ram for the last 3-5 months.

 

(watching the Gamers Nexus - Tech Jesus talk about chips.. very disappointing) Honestly, don't know if I should do the AMD route. AND all industries are suffering the magic cooked sand problem. (I will be honest, I don't want a fucking IPAD/Surface tablet with GPS in a MidClass truck. but all the manufacture's are doing it.) NVidia gobbling up ARM was the work of the DEVIL! Samsung and Apple can eat shit. hmmm..

 

Oh yeah, LTT, happen to mention I probably need a Ekwb back plate and front plate and have to bend tubes and shit around because the 1 fan on the FE. And paying MSRP was NVidia's way of saying "We are going to punch you in your reproductive organs but you get to say you will be first and "cheaapar", we will not mention you'll probably fist your own ass to get good tech to get the performance promised.. After all you fucking bought the 970 didn't you.".. 

 

Yes, yes, I did. I sadly did, I bought a 970 then had to wait 3 to 5 years for the second card (thanks btc miners)... First was the disaster of "it's not really 4Gb you stupid chump for not getting the 1080"... Second after I got the second *shrug* re-fuckered 970 to SLI. I found out? YIPPEE, "SLI just means we MIRROR the memory! ALSO PUNCH YOURSELF IN THE BALLS AGAIN! BWAHAHAHA! You can't run Apex Legends and OBS unless you use 640x480!"

 

 "well fuck it nvidia. at least I can use" "YOU CAN'T USE SOLIDWORKS EITHER BECAUSE WE DID A BACK ROOM DEAL WITH Dassault Systèmes and DELL SO A GRID CARD is REQUIRED AND WE WON'T TELL YOU WERE YOU CAN FIND THE PATCH TO RUN RENDER AGENT."

 

 Fine, you've forced my hand. Literally, At least AI-Shoujo work wonderfully on these cards. (Only to find out the girls "agent code" was making my i7-4790k go crazy if there were more then 4 girls on the island. even with 32Gb on the Z97 Mobo.) 

 

*snapping back to reality* so I probably need the Ryzen 9 5950X? I do like it.. the sticker price meh. I mean I shoved the RTX 3090 down my throat. Will have to get the water block, hope I don't fuck up my first water loop build that isn't a AIO solution, also hope the pump doesn't fail AND to top it off I won't be able to do any kind of linux DOM0 iGFX passthrough.

 

I'm not mad at you 27XX, I'm just venting and mocking myself. You know what really sucks? You try to get wiser the older you get.. Only to find those old expressions don't "stick" so well anymore. I mean I learned my lesson in "less is more" aka 1 beefy GPU aka the 1080/1080Ti/Titan is better then 2 970s.. But this "You get.. what you pay for. If you pay for quality you get quality!" is a utter lie these days. I mean I knew Windows 10 was going to be shit.. I never played a CoD game before CoD Blackout.. Only to find out from everyone, it's shit. it's always the same. Just like all those other triple A companies.

 

Honestly, I am really curious only about one thing these days; how many TONS of YAYO/COCAINE do these Accountants, Lawyers and C-class Executives use per week. Because this is dystopian levels of insanity.. 

 

I pray everyone is smart here.. And BACK UP ALL THE POSTS and FILES. Never know when the psycho will show up and say "you are having fun and I'm not responsible? You'll have fun the way I say you can have fun and charge you even more!" Sheesh.

[SimulatedFantasyHero]

3 hours ago, legendarytoyou said:

Kat is absolutely right.  Gamebyro based games, which Bethesda is renowned and ridiculed for, are more dependent on DRam than VRam really.  I'm sporting a new 6700xt backed with a Ryzen 5 and 32gig's of RAM and I'll still see stuttering from Fallout 4, a game that is now over 5 years old.  Bethesda is always getting flack from people on retiring the ancient Creation Engine which hopefully will happen after their merger with Microsoft.

 

Gamebyro needs to be taken out back and shot. ?

 

I bought Fallout 3.. Hoping it would be good. Didn't pre-order. But got a Physical copy. saying to myself, well.. I understand it's not FO1 or FO2 but maybe.. JUST maybe it's okay. It was.. The music is good.

 

The tale turns dark, after discovering the modding scene. I was having a blast until one day... I said "I'm gonna do the completion play and CLEAN UP this WASTELAND!" I printed out the color map. And from starting position after leaving the vault everything that was public went for recycling. I crossed out about 15% of the sites on the map. As cleaned. Then discovered I wasn't cleaning... I was making system commits. that every bottle and can x,y coord was being stored. How did I find out? Crashing and whacking and smacking.. Uh Crashing and whacking and smacking. GOOD LORD NAH! Crashing and whacking and smacking. Every save file that hit 10 Mb and a touch over, I'm dead.

[SimulatedFantasyHero]

On 5/16/2021 at 5:26 PM, 27X said:

one game is what a fetishist does, and unless you have a rig capable of outputting 8(not 4, 8)K/60 or use Blender and Maya or Cinema 4D daily there is absolutely no reason to own a 3090

 

You are missing one important thing.. And it's probably not about anything we do here or similar forum. Nvenc.... NVenc is good. Also? Restoring old porn. you know... The kind where there were attractive women in it. Not these weird "step-mom" stories that refuse to retire. FlowFrames combined with Waifu2x-Extension-GUI-v2.58.13-Win64. 1st to take it to 60 (or 59.94) fps. 2nd to upscale, restore and use machine learning to CSI "ENHANCE!" levels of zoom and remove grain.

 

Topaz Video Enhance AI is kinda shit. They have some learning models but it's not great.

 

I suppose you could farm "coin" as in "F U NVidia on your last software update.. We will mine Etherium/Lite/Doge coin instead."

 

Truthfully, if you can find a 2080.. it means you can play videogames and use obs at the same time ON the same computer WITHOUT needing a second computer (I forget what exactly that process was called... Not KVM. NDS or NDIS? basically the second comp was a high refresh VNC with microphone input and audio passthrough I believe. Don't quite remember.)

 

A 3070 or better means the same thing. I wouldn't count on a 3060 or a 1066 or whatever they call that shit.

 

Honestly, anyone that has to deal with rendering and processing video without waiting 2 to 4 hours for 10 minutes of something youtube compatible. will benefit. Honestly, any creator will benefit from it. and when I say creator I mean even folks who do 3D printing. Most performance will be seen by people who do 3d rendered environments and good animations.. aka the Steamworks. the good shit. the D.VA chock fuck and getting pounded in the yellow changing booth standing missionary... Yeah, you know those animations. *nods* Fetish is as Fetish does. 

 

Don't you imagine if there was a loving (girl in my case) person, in most peoples case they would spend the money for a piece of fiberglass with some solder that will probably be junk in 5 to 10 years? Versus a Gold ring that will last a lifetime?

 

"They" got us.. the books they print is tiny AND not to mention the paper is almost a grey as the ink they use. now what. phone games? "don't you all have phones?" what about the trash and programming the push on T.V.? Magazines? Buzzfeed? Movies? 

 

Fucken hell man, Fetish is as fetish does. I can say most people don't want to cause waves and say "Lemme the fuck alone to enjoy whatever fucked up shit I'm into."

 

Now, I'll get back to my Rimworld Colony and continue impregnating my colony wives.. based on the cards I created in AI and HS2.. that are pale meaningless imitations of women in real life. *shrug*

 

Sorry, I mean get back to painting the insides of walls.

 

P.S. If you want to see REAL snobbery and Fetishists.. the doom9 and afterdawn forums are filled with command line monkey junkies that insist you must have every fucking frame reviewed and purviewed AND that command line settings are better then anything that is automated.

[AKM]

On 5/15/2021 at 5:41 PM, thaclone said:

the world is going crazy... and mostly thanks to those stupid miners  

 

If 'those stupid miners' you speak of are Bitcoin/Dogecoin etc. miners, I suggest the old saying: 'If you can't beat them, join them.'  I'm still not sure how it all works, but there are more than a few who have made a killing with the various 'coins'.

As for the chip shortage, that has to do with production and resources used in production, but we don't have much control over that in this neck of the woods.

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

 

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

11 hours ago, legendarytoyou said:

Kat is absolutely right.  Gamebyro based games, which Bethesda is renowned and ridiculed for, are more dependent on DRam than VRam really.  I'm sporting a new 6700xt backed with a Ryzen 5 and 32gig's of RAM and I'll still see stuttering from Fallout 4, a game that is now over 5 years old.  Bethesda is always getting flack from people on retiring the ancient Creation Engine which hopefully will happen after their merger with Microsoft.

 

Gamebyro needs to be taken out back and shot. ?

My current build actually runs the game pretty smoothly (I'm guessing based on a few peeks I've taken of the frame rates that I get a pretty consistent 35-40 frames around down town Boston though it's mostly in the 30s).. unless I turn on SSAO in my ENB then any time I get into an absolute clusterfuck of a fight with flames and nukes going off left right and center my computer will just freeze and never recover from it (I usually have to bring up the task manager and close the game), what's funny though is if I turn off SSAO apparently I have juuust enough resources the allow the computer to break through the freeze (after maybe 10 seconds) and continue on..

 

None of the other games I play have those kinds of issues...

[legendarytoyou]

50 minutes ago, Z0mBieP00Nani said:

My current build actually runs the game pretty smoothly (I'm guessing based on a few peeks I've taken of the frame rates that I get a pretty consistent 35-40 frames around down town Boston though it's mostly in the 30s).. unless I turn on SSAO in my ENB then any time I get into an absolute clusterfuck of a fight with flames and nukes going off left right and center my computer will just freeze and never recover from it (I usually have to bring up the task manager and close the game), what's funny though is if I turn off SSAO apparently I have juuust enough resources the allow the computer to break through the freeze (after maybe 10 seconds) and continue on..

 

None of the other games I play have those kinds of issues...

Same my current system runs FO4 fairly smoothly.  The occasional twitching doesn't isn't a huge issue, it doesn't make the game unplayable but it is a valid point that the Gamebyro/Creation Engine REALLY needs to be retired at some point.

[KoolHndLuke]

7 hours ago, legendarytoyou said:

Same my current system runs FO4 fairly smoothly.  The occasional twitching doesn't isn't a huge issue, it doesn't make the game unplayable but it is a valid point that the Gamebyro/Creation Engine REALLY needs to be retired at some point.

I mean.... it really does. But that also means we won't be modding anything Beth for some time the way we do now. Hard to say. And performance issues in their games are due as much to lazy or incompetent world building as anything else. I mean this is Bugthesda we're talking about here, lol. So even switching to a newer engine won't solve everything. Might even make things worse because of their long time reluctance to switch from Gamebryo and the learning curve associated with something else.

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

5 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I mean.... it really does. But that also means we won't be modding anything Beth for some time the way we do now. Hard to say. And performance issues in their games are due as much to lazy or incompetent world building as anything else. I mean this is Bugthesda we're talking about here, lol. So even switching to a newer engine won't solve everything. Might even make things worse because of their long time reluctance to switch from Gamebryo and the learning curve associated with something else.

I thought I heard via leaks that they are going to most likely be switching to an Unreal based system with their next titles or maybe it wasn't Unreal based but it was supposedly something that 3D artists and such are more likely to be familiar with so modding could potentially become easier.. provided they do in fact intend to keep modding around in their games, I don't know though. Their recent Microsoft acquisition may have given them a bit of a fat head and now they may feel like they don't really need us anymore, but that's just my paranoia speaking.

[KoolHndLuke]

2 hours ago, Z0mBieP00Nani said:

Unreal based system

That would be cool. Both Unreal and Unity are free to download and use from what I understand. I was going to download Unreal for some modding, but haven't yet because I couldn't find the version I needed.

[legendarytoyou]

8 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

That would be cool. Both Unreal and Unity are free to download and use from what I understand. I was going to download Unreal for some modding, but haven't yet because I couldn't find the version I needed.

Yeah only real issue is that Unreal, Unity and even Frostbite are designed with First-Person Shooter emphasis in mind.  Remember what happened with Mass Effect: Andromeda??

But I don't think Bethesda is that haphazard.  That was all Bioware and they landed on their face with that epic fuck up.  I like to believe that Bethesda isn't that stupid but when we look at Fallout 76 we have to take a moment to recollect.

 

There's a VERY good chance they'll just update the Creation Engine again, but with some updates from Microsoft backing them MAYBE Fallout 5 will have a fully refined engine because we all know that most of their game worlds are rushed.  You're not fooling anyone Bugthesda; there's a reason there usually is an Unofficial Patch with every released game not to mention the absolute MANDATORY need for a Script Extender, Texture remodel etc.  They are notorious for half-assing most of their architecture.  The literal MANDATORY need for FO4Editor to clean out ESM files is proof of that.