Devious Followers - Continued

[Lupine00]

3 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

Only talking about the scene selection

You mean the sexlab animations for the PC giving oral?

[Lupine00]

4 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

Aye. Thats nothing this mod needs to solve? 

I'll put it on the very long list...

 

The defaults for Weird Potion are changed for 2.07, 9 deals for normal, 12 for forced.

 

I think that's a better setting. The idea of it is to clear the slate when you get into a situation with an unrecoverable amount of deals.

At six deals you wouldn't need to do that.

Also doesn't have silly 0 days default durations any longer.

 

It should only select valid followers as sources now, so even the forced version is usable.

[HexBolt8]

7 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

Add a new feature that forces a deal onto you when youre having low willpower (e.g. being below 7 willpower, you have to have at least 1 deal or the follower makes you one - by forcegreeting you /// being below 5 willpower, youre forced into another one ///being below 2 willpower and you get a deal regulary until youre at 5? 6? deals). This "forcing" ignores debt thersholds. Willpower being the only variable that triggers this event

Idealy, the dialouge shouldnt be "make a deal" but "Id love to see wearing those boots, why dont try it?"

With a feature like that, you could add random events that do nothing but dropping willpower and the mod would still start doing its things

 

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If you find you aren't getting deals, or not getting in gold control, it's not because of your constant high willpower, it's because you have too much money.

Lupine00, I took your quote out of context since you were replying to Zaflis, but I think it applies.  I believe that Zagzaguel's idea is to open up forced deals to more than just lack of money.  Lowered will could come entirely from wearing restraints and insufficient sleep, which would then trigger the deals content.

 

The debt model works well for what it is but for me it got stale, so it would be good to open up deal taking to more than high debt.  By stale, I mean that I have to keep tweaking payment amounts and interest rates so that I'm always in debt.  That ended up spoiling my enjoyment of the game, because gaining loot and making money became pointless.  I'd have to give all to the follower anyway, and I got that way by raising the payments whenever I started to do well financially.  Since I actively worked to defeat myself, I just couldn't get into the mental mode of being driven to pay the follower. 

 

I decided that I like the rewards of looting and actually having some money.  But that closes off a lot of DF content.  An optional willpower-based path to forced deals would let the player have both money and deals.  You'd still have to trigger willpower loss, presumably through DD, but it would be a different way to get into deals. 

 

This concept is probably what made the idea of permanent willpower loss appealing to me, to make getting forced into deals more likely without having to be broke.  New events that cause normal (temporary) lowering of willpower would further extend that kind of play, a "nice to have" but not necessary.

[Lupine00]

16 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

The debt model works well for what it is but for me it got stale

I got there a long time ago. With DF as it is, it's not so easy to make broad changes. A lot of mechanics are implemented as a whole boatload of dialog conditions on a whole mountain of different dialogs. If you multiply all those boats and mountains you end up with Noah's ark!

 

Willpower was designed to work a certain way, and you can't easily mess with that without having to check every dialog in the mod to be sure it isn't based on Willpower in some unexpected way. Not quite, but almost.

 

That doesn't mean there can't be mechanics to allow for forced deals, forced followers, new ways to lose willpower, and new ways to make followers happy... It just means that certain ways of getting to those things make more sense than others, especially if you want everything to be optional.

 

DF's cash mechanic was never about realism, it was about focus on simple mechanics that worked without destroying vanilla playability.

Only dealing in cash is limiting, but I've thought about other ways to please and annoy followers, and it's hard to come up with things that have much gameplay to them.

 

Over the life of DF, I've suggested various things, and for everyone that loves one of them, somebody else hates it.

I have a tendency to head towards mechanics where if you throw one switch in the MCM it's a VW beetle, and if you throw the other it's a giant yellow robot that shoots lasers. That lack of a single clear flavour confuses some players.

 

I need to fix a few serious bugs before I can take the time to make real new things, and even then it's likely the first thing to add will be new deals:

• Milk Deal
• Spanking Deal
• Sex Deal

 

Beyond that it's a mostly binary decision between improving the slavery and improving the non-slavery part of the mod.

 

I do want to do something good for spouses, and that may tie into a way to make all of DF work without depending on cash so much but again ...

Cash checks are wired into hundreds of dialogs. Changing that for something else isn't quick or easy.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Zagzaguel said:

Btw. There still seems to be an issue with a clitoral piercing deal while wearing a harness. Harnesses dont allow this to be equipped so you end up with debt that you cant avoid

Whack-a-mole...

 

I fixed some things yesterday, but not that.

 

I'm finding that not infrequently, that the follower giving devices fails because the LDC didn't have an item set up in it that you would expect to be set.

 

Addendum:

This is a DD bug. Harness doesn't always have the DeviousBelt keyword set, but always acts like a belt in scripts, blocking piercing add/remove.

I've put in an allowance for it anyway. You won't be checked for piercings in any harness in 2.07

[A Little Kitten]

I simply like the idea that there is partner you have to pay to stay with you... conincidentaly it happens she's kinky...
This thing doesnt need stuff like Resto magicka of follower ... or TELEPORT ME HOME ... For me worked best to have there things i have to pay for (releastic needs and diseases - food drink sleep) and more releastic prices and rewards ( trade and barter ). Dont rely on some tricks like I can teleport you home but its not worth it... make it complex. Make the gold be actually needed in the game.

[Sucker343]

FNIS related Error everytime game start and crash.

Papyrus.0.log

[qtpie]

Does the potion quest really last forever?

How does it work if you want to change followers, or play without a follower for a while?

 

I like the idea, I'm just not sure I want to commit to something permanent in my save, because who knows whether this just becomes annoying instead of fun after a week?

[A Little Kitten]

2 hours ago, qtpie said:

Does the potion quest really last forever?

How does it work if you want to change followers, or play without a follower for a while?

 

I like the idea, I'm just not sure I want to commit to something permanent in my save, because who knows whether this just becomes annoying instead of fun after a week?

for me it was annoying in firs 2 minutes.. i was just about to pay the debpt anyway

[HexBolt8]

7 hours ago, qtpie said:

Does the potion quest really last forever?

Yes.

Quote

How does it work if you want to change followers, or play without a follower for a while?

I believe you'd have to keep returning to the original follower to avoid the debuff.  You could dismiss that follower, but you'd still be linked for life.

Quote

I like the idea, I'm just not sure I want to commit to something permanent in my save, because who knows whether this just becomes annoying instead of fun after a week?

I don't think it was ever intended to be "fun" even in the short term.  My recollection of the original author's stated intent is that it was a desperation option to extract yourself from a hopeless situation.  It might make sense if you're about done playing that character and just want to free yourself up to go a few more days before starting a new game.  If you plan to keep going, I don't think it's ever a good choice.  It's the ultimate devious deal; I liken it to selling your soul for money.  There's a short term gain, but it's permanent and one always regrets it. 

[LAXL02]

17 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

I don't think it was ever intended to be "fun" even in the short term.  My recollection of the original author's stated intent is that it was a desperation option to extract yourself from a hopeless situation.  It might make sense if you're about done playing that character and just want to free yourself up to go a few more days before starting a new game.  If you plan to keep going, I don't think it's ever a good choice.  It's the ultimate devious deal; I liken it to selling your soul for money.  There's a short term gain, but it's permanent and one always regrets it. 

If I remember correctly, there was always the intent to implement a "release" option for the potion quest, but it was never done due to the discontinuation of the original (or was it @Lupine00 that mentioned that?)

[Lupine00]

33 minutes ago, LAXL02 said:

If I remember correctly, there was always the intent to implement a "release" option for the potion quest, but it was never done due to the discontinuation of the original (or was it @Lupine00 that mentioned that?)

I think it was probably me.

 

If you set the duration on the potion to be tolerable (over a week), it's not that big a problem.

The pain point is that it can kick in when you're not quite expecting it.

 

Being able to track your "need" would reduce that particular pain.

 

I haven't tested whether resetting DF properly resets the potion quest, as that seems ... significant.

However, you could easily reset the potion quest from the console anyway.

It shouldn't ever become a save-breaker.

[Lupine00]

I did some work on making AFT work properly without a patch. I don't want any patches for follower frameworks, they have to go. DF should just work.

 

Adding the other frameworks isn't that much more work, but the testing will take me a good while. At least through next weekend I should think.

 

 

For EFF, I want to do something to fix that absurd infinite safe inventory.

 

Also, for all cases (using follower a framework or vanilla), I want to fix the exploits of giving your follower cash or keys to hold so they can't be taken by theft mods or DCL.

SLS handles those things, within some limits, but DF shouldn't need SLS to work sensibly.

 

 

For EFF inventory, I'm thinking about rendering it useless. Put stuff in there and the follower just puts it back on you.

However, if you put keys or gold, it's handled the same way as if you put them in normal inventory.

 

 

For DD keys, I'm thinking that the follower should vanish them from the inventory, but track them.

You then have a chance that they will unlock for a reduced fee, if the follower has some keys that fit that came from you.

But the follower never gives those keys back. Giving keys to a follower is thus ... not useless ... but certainly a gamble.

 

For gold that the follower is given, it will simply be removed from your debt, up to the credit cap - unless you're in gold control, in which case it's added to credit.

This means you can pay the follower simply by giving gold, which is ... sensible ... but if you want them to "hold" your gold, you need to use gold control.

 

 

I'm interested in a key-holder feature... If your will is low enough, then (on a timer) the follower searches you for keys and takes them.

If you play the key-game, the timer is reset.

If you're a slave, you can hand over keys explicitly, for a small reward, regardless of your willpower.

 

 

Wishful thinking maybe? For now I need to finish the follower framework basics.

[Lupine00]

Returning to the age old DF problem of "affordable followers" ...

 

If you can afford to pay your follower, you may never really get into trouble in DF.

If you set the follower fees to high, it's an inescapable pit, and you always end up enslaved, over and over, if you can even escape slavery at all.

 

This leads to endless fee tweaking, or boredom with DF, or both.

 

 

And if you can pay your follower too easily, you don't get deals, or stuck in devices (much) and so your willpower remains at 10.

And if you can't, your willpower tends to decline quite quickly as soon as you get a deal that gets you into sex situations wearing devices.

 

 

I think this needs at least a two prong solution:

 

1) long term payment of followers should start to gradually erode willpower, even if nothing else happens.

    This could be a simple MCM option with a slider. I can add this pretty easily; it's not much work.

 

2) DFs become frustrated if you go too long without deals and start to take more direct action.

    This needs games that can fire without device requirements, probably on sleeping.

    Also, variant handling of situations where the PC is wearing devices.

 

e.g. If  you go a week with no deals, follower has 40% chance to play a night-game every time you sleep, and the chance doesn't reset back to 0 until you have at least three deals.

 

e.g. If you go a week without paying for device removal, follower won't remove devices when you get in trouble, instead starts a game.

 

 

As for game ideas, that's another story.

But I think that if you get into a game while sleeping at home, it should involve waking up in an unexpected location, because you have too many convenient places to stash keys at home.

 

[LAXL02]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I think this needs at least a two prong solution:

 

1) long term payment of followers should start to gradually erode willpower, even if nothing else happens.

    This could be a simple MCM option with a slider. I can add this pretty easily; it's not much work.

 

2) DFs become frustrated if you go too long without deals and start to take more direct action.

    This needs games that can fire without device requirements, probably on sleeping.

    Also, variant handling of situations where the PC is wearing devices.

 

You could always combine the two: have the follower put (and keep) the PC in bondage if they have too low Willpower/Resistance, and don't have credit with them. A form of "payment assurance". Nothing major, maybe a collar or cuffs, but something to remind them of their dues (and conveniently lower willpower further).

 

Quote

As for game ideas, that's another story.

 

Well, you do happen to run a thread full of devious "followers" (sorry, couldn't help myself). Nothing too helpful comes to my mind right now, but here's one I thought up while writing this:

If you are travelling and your follower lives gets "low" (to be defined), but not depleted, have the follower "offer" (possibly with a debt addition if rejected) to restore their lives in exchange for a deal or alternatively/additionally a "sexual healing" moment. (Again, conveniently lowering Willpower/Resistance further)

[Lupine00]

50 minutes ago, LAXL02 said:

You could always combine the two: have the follower put (and keep) the PC in bondage if they have too low Willpower/Resistance, and don't have credit with them. A form of "payment assurance". Nothing major, maybe a collar or cuffs, but something to remind them of their dues (and conveniently lower willpower further).

In low willpower scenarios, this is almost never necessary.

 

DF tends to polarise in the two ways I described earlier - either you are cash positive, and ultimately it soon comes good, or the follower bills are unsupportable and repeated enslavements are likely, often coming closer together and lasting longer as problems accumulate and various resources are bled dry.

 

A low willpower character usually cannot shed deals, and so will be stuck in devices anyway.

If your will is low, the follower won't let you pay debt until you take more deals.

 

Of course, if you set short deal durations, or allow cheap buyouts, this is less of a pressing issue.

 

 

Balance mechanisms are needed: things that automatically reduce your cash making ability if you are making too much, and things that slow your decline, if you are falling behind.

I think that it's not uncommon for players to tweak their follower fees up and down to do this themselves, which is ultimately frustrating and starts to feel like you're choosing an outcome (whether good or bad) rather than earning one.

 

Back in the 1.X era, I did quite a bit of playing about with automated mechanics to add surprise debts, or auto-tune follower fees, and they worked perfectly in a sense - they did effectively balance your incoming and outgoings on a knife edge - but they didn't feel fun. It felt like you were less in control. Now you weren't choosing an outcome, but the mod certainly was.

 

 

The lives regain trade suggestion is a practical option, based on the condition that the PC is wearing some devices, but doesn't solve the balance problem, just gives the player a convenience feature if they don't want to head to an inn immediately.

 

 

I want DF to feel like a battle of wits against the cunning follower. The follower offers you options that may help, or may be traps. Sometimes, if you can exceed the follower's expectations, you can win. And sometimes, the surprise should be how badly you are in trouble, and just how deeply you are being screwed. And this has to be achieved with limited changes to DF mechanics, because DF was not architected to be easily altered. It is a maze of duplications and corner-cases, with several hundreds of fragment scripts that often do things in one-off ways. Some scripts check gold directly, some check against your debt, some against your credit, and some lack checks they should have. Some punishments have odd fixed values, others use the punishment gold directly, and others call the punishment debt script ... and so on. This makes a general change, like allowing ways to measure or pay debt in something other than gold coins, extremely tricky.

 

Meantime, there are just a ton of niggling bugs to fix. After this faction stuff, there's the scanner, modular deals, and the LDC to sort out.

The scanner sometimes crashes the mod, modular deals occasionally conflict, and the LDC is definitely ... buggy somehow ... it frequently fails to supply devices for no obvious reason ... and will have to be gone through with the proverbial fine tooth comb. There are likely some soft-deps that need rewriting too, so we don't get any more of those odd start-up CTDs when using things like RDO and SLIF in particular combinations and load orders.

[qtpie]

How do you solve the _DFlowForcedStart quest?

Guards say: "You there, slave what's your name [...] take me to your master"?

How do you get the guard to stop following you?

 

There is a Dialogue Topic that says "Hey are you ok? Why is that guard following you?" with a condition PotentialFollowerFaction===1,  but followers never say it, so the guard follows you forever.

 

Edit: Never mind, the dialogue fired eventually. Maybe there should be an option to ask followers too though, instead of having to wait around for the line to trigger.

[valcon767]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I think this needs at least a two prong solution:

 

1) long term payment of followers should start to gradually erode willpower, even if nothing else happens.

    This could be a simple MCM option with a slider. I can add this pretty easily; it's not much work.

 

2) DFs become frustrated if you go too long without deals and start to take more direct action.

    This needs games that can fire without device requirements, probably on sleeping.

    Also, variant handling of situations where the PC is wearing devices.

 

e.g. If  you go a week with no deals, follower has 40% chance to play a night-game every time you sleep, and the chance doesn't reset back to 0 until you have at least three deals.

 

e.g. If you go a week without paying for device removal, follower won't remove devices when you get in trouble, instead starts a game.

 

 

As for game ideas, that's another story.

But I think that if you get into a game while sleeping at home, it should involve waking up in an unexpected location, because you have too many convenient places to stash keys at home.

 

couple of thoughts.

like the idea of long term gradually eroding willpower (this will eventually lead to having to take deals hopefully).

 

if you go a week with no deals, follower has a 35% chance of game while sleeping at home (or at an Inn), or entering a walled city or Jarl's Residence,

chance does not reset to 0 until 3 deals are made.

game does not trigger if wearing quest items from other mods (example Queen Sarah's gear from Bound Queen questline).

 

when entering a walled city, Jarl's residence, or when sleeping (at a player home or at an Inn)

follower starts with devious key confiscation, device removal of all devices that follower can remove charging debt to player, followed by follower equipping player

with 1-5 devices, and moving player to random Inn (only if triggered by sleeping), and telling player they will remove the devices in X Hours.  player can buy out of

devices right offhand  (at same cost as a level 3 deal buy out), and if more than one device is added to player, the buy out requires to buyout of all devices at one

time.  number of devices added depends on followers level of frustration.

1st time  = Collar

2nd time = Collar, arm cuffs, and/or leg cuffs

3rd time = Collar, arm cuffs, leg cuffs,  boots (or leg irons) or gag,

4th time or greater  = Collar, arm cuffs, leg cuffs, boots and blindfold or gag and arm restraint (armbinder/yoke/bondage mittens/straight-jacket or pet suit))

 

if you go a week without paying for device removal (with no deals active) follower will not remove device for cash, but will for a new deal. each removal costs

1 new (tiered type if able to make it take that type) deal , time for deal needed for device removal = 1 week period starting when asking for device removal.

 

[HexBolt8]

I love the new ideas, Lupine00, particularly imposing new deals if the PC has gone too long without one. 

 

There's something I've been wanting to suggest, which might help (at least somewhat) with the gold balancing problem (having too much or too little).

 

In my games, I prefer to pay the follower in two ways, the fixed daily amount supported by DF ("base pay"), plus a share of the loot (self-tracked and self-enforced).  This removes more gold from the player (in absolute terms) when times are good, and hurts less when the player is struggling.  I set base pay lower than usual; it's the guaranteed amount the follower gets even I'm resting and recovering.  I think a follower would prefer this model, truly getting a "fair share" of loot plus guaranteed base income. 

 

What about adding loot sharing to DF?  Is it practical to hook into the barter interface and whisk away the follower's share from every item sold?  I've found that manually tracking a large selloff is tedious.  I often forget and mix in personal purchases, which throws off the net change in my gold.  It would be great if DF simply handled that.  I can also imagine a link between willpower (and possibly follower "mood" or satisfaction with your performance) and your share percentage.  "It's clear that I'm doing most of the work these days.  I'm reducing your share.  No objections?  Good."

 

Spoiler

Ideally, the follower should also get a share of cash rewards, but I can't think of a safe and practical way to implement that.  Too many mods add cash to player inventory that's not a reward.   (In Radiant Prostitution the PC collects the total pay for each job, then the pimp's share is removed when the shift is completed.  Removing the follower's share from each client's payment would wreck that.)  So I think cash rewards and gold that the PC receives outside of bartering would simply have to fund the PC's ability to make the follower's base pay.

 

[Darkwing241]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

Balance mechanisms are needed: things that automatically reduce your cash making ability if you are making too much, and things that slow your decline, if you are falling behind.

I think that it's not uncommon for players to tweak their follower fees up and down to do this themselves, which is ultimately frustrating and starts to feel like you're choosing an outcome (whether good or bad) rather than earning one.

I've posted a few times about the idea of making deals (or maybe just some deals) reward the player with a percentage reduction in follower upkeep rather than a lump sum. 

 

If the DF's upkeep is too high, a few deals will then make it manageable.  The more deals you take the more manageable it will become.  So it becomes a dance between taking enough deals to keep upkeep under control and not taking so many that it crushes the PC's willpower or disables the PC with bondage.

 

This doesn't directly address the problem of DF upkeep being too low, but that can be worked around pretty easily by having low level DF's have relatively modest upkeep that scale heavily as the PC levels. Or maybe some other mechanic can be added to specifically address under payed DFs. 

 

I admit this is kind of only a half solution, but if the game is more resilient when playing with over tuned DF upkeep, under tuned ones will occur less often, as players won't need their MCM settings to be as conservative.

[legraf]

One very simple way to have on-the-fly tweaking of difficulty, Lupine00, is to have a reactive "chaos mode".  In this mode, when values are re-rolled, they are biased upwards or downwards based on a very simple measure - the PC's current cash/credit.

 

This has the obvious advantage that costs would automatically track the player's wealth, rather than players having to manually tweak values.  This works in both directions - if the player's wiped out and hopelessly trapped, all costs plummet (assuming the player has chosen a wide enough range for possible values) to the point where the player can see the light at the end of the tunnel again.

 

Implementation-wise, it could take the roll of a single variable, costMultiplier, which is adjusted based on player wealth, and which applies to all DF costs (dailies, fees, penalties, etc.).  The player sets a range of "wealth" over which this variable changes linearly (its range also player-defined), very much like your SLD buffs/debuffs.  For extra dynamism, there can be an option to vary exponentially instead, or any other trick to really bump values at extremely high/low wealth.

 

It would probably lead to a bit of an up/down rollercoaster, since I'm not proposing an intelligent wealth tracker that averages things out over time, but a simple snapshot.  But with small multiplier ranges this serves as just an automatic tweaker, and with large ranges it does lead to really easy periods that give way to really challenging ones, which in turn swing back.

 

One could elaborate on the idea - have ramping up/down (limiting instantaneous cost changes in some fashion), or have a more intelligent wealth tracker that samples repeatedly rather than all at once.

 

Example values:

Wealth range: 0 ... 10000 (above 10000 triggers something extra, maybe another doubling of costs)

costMultiplier range: 0.1 ... 10 (a broke player pays 10% of usual costs, a player who has saved 10000 pays 1000% of base costs).

Ramp: 0 (costMultiplier not limited) or someNumber (costMultiplier can only increase to (currentCost * Ramp), or decrease to (currentCost / Ramp).

The player sets the recalculation schedule but it varies from 50% - 150% of their intended (min would be "next payment due" frequency, max a week?)

 

Of course the system can be gamed.  To start, I'd make the "re-rolling" frequency somewhat variable rather than on a fixed schedule to reduce easy gaming... but I wouldn't worry much about that, since anyone with access to the console can already "cheat" all they want, and that's fine.  It's their game.

 

I do love the idea of followers getting a bit more pro-active if the game is "dull" (for them and the player), and finding new ways to undermine will and resistance even when the player is swimming in gold, but this relatively simple change might save some players from boring tweaking.

 

edit: OK, I was ninja'd by both Hexbolt8 and DarkWing241, and both of them have good ideas!  I particularly like this from HexBolt8:

 

Quote

 I can also imagine a link between willpower (and possibly follower "mood" or satisfaction with your performance) and your share percentage.  "It's clear that I'm doing most of the work these days.  I'm reducing your share.  No objections?  Good."

A more interventionist follower is, I think, a very good thing (based on willpower and mood) - I know some people want DF to be entirely under player control, but I think some unilateral adjustments by a follower (who has good reasons to want a better deal, or their mood/lives wouldn't be low!) would be nice.

 

[drunken toad]

Hey Lupine00, Have you considered adding spouse reactions to the characters situation with their follower? Something along the lines of (A friend of mine told me he saw you being led the streets naked on all fours... care to explain?). Having someone treat their spouse like that in public would be pretty humiliating, I think it'd be a cool feature. Could be done based off of specific deals- then maybe after a 24 hour period of activating the deal the players spouse would have a random chance of speaking new dialogue to you? Just a thought, thanks for picking up this mod. 

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

I've posted a few times about the idea of making deals (or maybe just some deals) reward the player with a percentage reduction in follower upkeep rather than a lump sum. 

I must have missed that, but it's a simple and effective idea. I will definitely add an option for it for the next version.

 

5 hours ago, legraf said:

One very simple way to have on-the-fly tweaking of difficulty, Lupine00, is to have a reactive "chaos mode".  In this mode, when values are re-rolled, they are biased upwards or downwards based on a very simple measure - the PC's current cash/credit.

That's kind of one approach I had a while back, and it had the problems I described. It does the balance job fine, but it feels unfair.

Existing Chaos mode can be challenging, but feels fair because you don't know if it will be good or bad - if you set it up with enough range - it might reward or punish you, but it does so impartially.

 

I have several ideas that I think will help, and which are simple to implement.

I'll be adding these as quickly as I'm able. Some will be in the next version.

 

• Accumulating "fatigue" that adds a slowly increasing penalty to your resistance, each morning.
• Remove chunks of "fatigue" by paying off deals (means you first have to take deals).
• Deals reduce recurring fees by a percentage.
• Gold control reduces recurring fees by a percentage, so more incentive to enter voluntarily.
• Any device removal request also starts gold control.
• Take deals in exchange for immediately leaving gold control.
• Significantly increase default deal costs, and credit required to leave gold control.
• Take deals in exchange for fast-travel from wilderness or dungeon locations to walled cities.
• Take a deal in exchange for for immediate follower life regain.
• Take deals to remove some tough devices, such as those that require multiple specialised keys.
• Better per-level fee-scaling mechanic to reduce wealth runaway at higher levels.
• Donate chunks of cash to temples to remove some "fatigue". Much less efficient than paying off deals.
• Make "confessions" to follower for large fatigue increase, plus lingering percentage fee reduction, plus deals (if you don't already have them) - high advantageous to confess if you have the deals already.
• Follower ultimatums after periods without any deals, make a choice:
  • increase recurring fees for this follower, or,
  • pay them out on the spot, or,
  • take a deal.
• Follower scams - some complex rules for how followers may cheat you of your cash if you seem to be accumulating it.
• Offer follower increased fees - regain some fatigue and improve follower honesty (less rip-offs).
• Hire more followers to improve follower honesty.
• Follower demands you hire their buddies - if you have a follower framework, frustrated follower can hire friends to "help", only occurs if extra followers have a cost
• On getting a new DF, choose to reduce fatigue in exchange for increased fees.

 

As for this...

6 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

What about adding loot sharing to DF?

I've wanted this myself for an age.

It's definitely one of my big wishes - like follower driven Radiant quests - but it's a bit complicated.

It's definitely something for later, because it means a variety of new work, and it might be a bit incompatible with some mods. i.e. it might let you cheat past SLS license rules unless I do extra work to support them.

I have a basic model for how I think it might work ...

 

Open a dialog option, "I have some loot for you..."

You get a gift menu to transfer items to the follower.

The follower destroys the received items and turns them into cash immediately, but that cash total is "secret".

When you enter certain shops, the follower will start a scene with the vendor. They do a deal and the secret cash total becomes known (or does it?)

A percentage of the "secret" cash value comes off your debt, depending on the situation.

 

This is a cheat, in that you can loot an infinite weight of items, so I might track that and do something with it, but I don't see the weight being capped.

Downside of the cheat is that the follower takes a percentage of the cut, and the lower your willpower, the higher that percentage is.

With multiple followers, the percentage for the player is always reduced. Would make "hires buddies" much more effective.

 

I can see a possible mechanic where you trade a cut of the loot for a fixed-value reduction in recurring fees. Good at low levels, but as you level up, a problem.

Makes sense you could do the reverse too, trade a fixed fee increase for an increase in loot cut. 

I think these would have to be agreements that you lock-in early with the follower - only during the minimum contract period for example.

 

 

I think "Confessions" will be a really neat mechanic, and people will enjoy using them. I'm not going to explain them now. When they go in you will have to experiment  

 

But overall, I think the best way forward is to make fees much more difficult to meet from the start, so they are completely unfair unless you do things to reduce them by percentage.

You'll still have to determine how much is too much yourself, but the idea is to simply aim for that. If you haven't hit that point, the scams/thefts will "fix" things for you, to the point that agreeing higher fees will seem like a win.

[Lupine00]

6 hours ago, drunken toad said:

Hey Lupine00, Have you considered adding spouse reactions to the characters situation with their follower?

I'd like to do ... something ... but I'm primarily interested in ways for the spouse to be a DF without demanding money or using the wrong sort of dialogs ... an in a way that might work with PetProject.

 

Reported humiliations ... it's sort of sexual fame stuff. It's nice, but how does it fit, what are the mechanics? Is it just flavor?

 

I think that spouse stuff is a way off for now, as it needs new ways to "pay" and new kinds of "debt" that work ok with as many existing features as can be contrived.

[HexBolt8]

I'm excited about the Confessions.  C'mon, can you give us a hint?  Is it like confessing to having a fetish?

 

I like your idea for linking follower "honesty" with satisfaction with pay.  There's an advantage to paying the DF well. 

 

I also like your concept for implementing loot sharing.  If the DF is going to refuse to carry stuff (I think that's where you're heading), that largely offsets the weightless loot.  To limit abuse, you could implement a minimum value/weight ratio so you can't pay the DF with junk.  That ratio might increase with level.  You might also disallow DD items, which tend to be overpriced and hard to sell.  I suggest a min/max MCM option for the loot percentage range, even if it's only available at the time of hiring. 

 

If you get really ambitious (this would be much further in the future), there could be a configurable list of prized items that the DF will simply take from you and credit you for "sharing".  A mage follower might take all scrolls, a thief might take all poisons.  The player would have to configure it so as not to destroy the game.