Devious Followers - Continued

[yeahhowaboutnooo]

Hi, i think i found a bug:

 

the 

Want to join me and I'll pay you later? [Add 500 debt]

dialogue option is only available if the player has less than 20 gold, because the dialogue-conditions check against 

HirelingRandomChatterChance [GLOB:000F11B5]

instead of

HirelingGold [GLOB:000BCC96]

 

That's the case for all followers except HirelingJenassa (gold is just compared to 500, which is probably also not good, if another mod changes HirelingGold to something else than 500)

See also picture attached:

Spoiler

 

Be advised: i'm running SSE, but TES5edit shows the same issue as SSEedit

 

last but not least: Thanks for this mod ?

[Guest]

On 7/28/2020 at 3:35 PM, RealGesichtsfelsen said:

Edit: NFF has a more stable vibe to me, for example I was able to hire modded NPCs as devious followers without any issues.

I too started using NFF a while ago just for DF (old), because it was the only follower system that worked reliable with DF (old).

Guess a lot has changed since then.

[Lupine00]

12 hours ago, yeahhowaboutnooo said:

Be advised: i'm running SSE, but TES5edit shows the same issue as SSEedit

Thanks.

 

I can confirm this in my copy.

I've fixed it. Hopefully, the topic text will now substitute the global instead of always saying 500, and the conditions will all be against HirelingGold too.

 

It looks like the value was off by one in the menu drop-down, so I'd guess it was set, accidentally nudged by one, then copy+pasted, a long time ago.

 

Still needs testing, but should be fixed.

[AlphaAndOmega]

Hello, just a minor problem here.

DF seems to ignore the existence of AFT in my load order. It just says that AFT is not present in MCM. 

Neither is overwritten with anything (DF does not overwrite AFT and I find that a bit strange), load order is sorted out and there is a TesEdit merged patch for the whole load order. DF and AFT work ok separately (both dialoge trees are avaliable for the devious follower) and everything is playable but this "AFT not present" is mildly concerning. I am using the last version of DF and am not using the compatability patch with AFT. 

Looking forward for your advice.

[Lupine00]

11 minutes ago, AlphaAndOmega said:

DF seems to ignore the existence of AFT in my load order. It just says that AFT is not present in MCM. 

Neither is overwritten with anything (DF does not overwrite AFT and I find that a bit strange), load order is sorted out and there is a TesEdit merged patch for the whole load order. DF and AFT work ok separately (both dialoge trees are avaliable for the devious follower) and everything is playable but this "AFT not present" is mildly concerning. I am using the last version of DF and am not using the compatability patch with AFT. 

Looking forward for your advice.

AFT uses a .bsa, so you need to unpack that to see any overwrites.

If you unpack the BSA you should see a lot of overwrites.

DF should be allowed to win.

 

If you don't load the ESP, the BSA won't be loaded either, unless you use MO with archive management on.

Personally, I unpack all BSAs so I can always see what's overwriting what and I don't need any dumb empty ESPs - though the AFT ESP is "real" in that there is definitely stuff in it.

 

You shouldn't need to unpack, but it will help you diagnose the issue.

[AlphaAndOmega]

51 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

AFT uses a .bsa, so you need to unpack that to see any overwrites.

If you unpack the BSA you should see a lot of overwrites.

DF should be allowed to win.

 

If you don't load the ESP, the BSA won't be loaded either, unless you use MO with archive management on.

Personally, I unpack all BSAs so I can always see what's overwriting what and I don't need any dumb empty ESPs - though the AFT ESP is "real" in that there is definitely stuff in it.

 

You shouldn't need to unpack, but it will help you diagnose the issue.

So, I've unpacked the bsa. I have seen a single overwrite: by DF. DF still pretends not to see it. Actually, should be the 'Multiple followers' option be active when DF thinks that there is no way for several followers to exist (no follower framework detected)? Because for me the option is active and it creates some misunderstanding.

[Lupine00]

14 hours ago, AlphaAndOmega said:

I have seen a single overwrite: by DF. DF still pretends not to see it.

Not enough overwrites?

 

It  should look like this:

Also, the DF ESP needs to come after AFT in the LO.

 

Also, under no circumstances attempt to rebuild DF's global function shim files to the follower frameworks without first copying the "real" source into place for the one you are building. The default source files have empty functions, so it's possible to develop without achieving the impossible: three conflicting follower frameworks installed at once.

 

The proper source files are included, but renamed. If you recompiled these accidentally, you may have broken them.

[AlphaAndOmega]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Not enough overwrites?

I meant that only one mod did overwrite anything. Currently, it looks like this:

Spoiler

 

But ingame:

 

 

 

(sorry for not cutting. This PC lacks the software)

 

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Also, under no circumstances attempt to rebuild DF's global function shim files to the follower frameworks without first copying the "real" source into place for the one you are building. The default source files have empty functions, so it's possible to develop without achieving the impossible: three conflicting follower frameworks installed at once.

 

The proper source files are included, but renamed. If you recompiled these accidentally, you may have broken them.

SInce I did not understand anything here, I think that I had not done that. 

[shiagwen]

18 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

AFT uses a .bsa, so you need to unpack that to see any overwrites.

If you unpack the BSA you should see a lot of overwrites.

DF should be allowed to win.

 

If you don't load the ESP, the BSA won't be loaded either, unless you use MO with archive management on.

Personally, I unpack all BSAs so I can always see what's overwriting what and I don't need any dumb empty ESPs - though the AFT ESP is "real" in that there is definitely stuff in it.

 

You shouldn't need to unpack, but it will help you diagnose the issue.

i dont have this issue with aft. but some orders from aft are ignored, like dismiss and relax here. of course not.

 

Lupine i want to thank you. i finally found your mod is my missing link.  - though not in the way as you made it and mean it !

i always had two conflicts with prostitution. first, it brought more money into economy, so carry heavy items and get overloaded is not necessary anymore. second, it was a bit too unforced. the innkeeper gets his part but in all other meanings it was free to do or not.

Now the devious follower, actually Sven, becomes the pimp. the debt is the money the pc has to whore for, every day, raising. no way around. realistic. i made him innkeeper with console, and the part for the innkeeeper in the prostituion mods, dcur and radiant prostitution plus tdf prostitution for the follower ( who has to whore for money too thanks to your debtadd for each follower).  The part for the innkeeper is zero, because he get his money by DF, not from the prostituion mods.

so this is great and has a very realistic atmosphere. thanks and go onm developing df further.

[Gods Stinkiest Monkey]

Is there a list of vanilla followers that are Devious? The npc debug option doesn't seem to work for me. 

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, AlphaAndOmega said:

Currently, it looks like this

I'd have expected more reports if it were broken in some consistent way.

When I try it in my setup ... with clean installs in MO ... it works fine, and shows a follower count as expected.

 

I wonder if there's something funny about your AmazingFollowerTweaks.esp ... the actual ESP isn't unticked in the right pane is it?

What version is the install?

 

Something I see in your screenshot, DF itself is being overwritten by something, which we can't see due to the filter.

 

What is overwriting DF?

 

 

Also, something else that is wrong... Most of your MCM is missing strings.

The translation files for all languages except English are a copy of the English one, and I update that every release.

 

So ... how come you are missing so many strings?

[AlphaAndOmega]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

I wonder if there's something funny about your AmazingFollowerTweaks.esp ... the actual ESP isn't unticked in the right pane is it?

What version is the install?

It isn't unticked. Otherwise the AFT itself wouldn't work. The version? I've redownloaded it just before writing here.

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Something I see in your screenshot, DF itself is being overwritten by something, which we can't see due to the filter.

 

What is overwriting DF?

It is overwritten by TaWoBA bodyslide files. For the CBBE armor.

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Also, something else that is wrong... Most of your MCM is missing strings.

The translation files for all languages except English are a copy of the English one, and I update that every release.

 

Well, I've got used to it. Many mods don't have translations for Russian and end up looking like this. Usuually it is either undersandable like this or I can find the explaination in the mod page (or in the mod translation files).

About the copies, they are, but the old ones. Before boredom and other stuff. I've just copied the english translation into the russian files and it now works fine. Guess I'll now go and do the same with SLAX.

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

So ... how come you are missing so many strings?

If only I new. It may be the result of the fact that this iteration of skyrim on me PC is about 1,5 years old and I am honestly afraid of doing another clean reinstall due to the absolute size of this unit. Maybe it is time, but I usually manage to tinker it into working correctly most of the time.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, AlphaAndOmega said:

If only I new. It may be the result of the fact that this iteration of skyrim on me PC is about 1,5 years old and I am honestly afraid of doing another clean reinstall due to the absolute size of this unit. Maybe it is time, but I usually manage to tinker it into working correctly most of the time.

But I can see from your pictures that you are using MO, so translation files should only be in MO modules.

 

When you install a new DF, you should get the new translation files automatically, and then you disable or delete the old install and it's always up to date...

 

When you put your latest version of DF in, did you make a new mod install, or upgrade an old one?

Maybe there's something funny about upgrades?

 

I never use the MO upgrade feature and always give new mod install a name that has the version in. I enable the new install. position just below the old one in the left pane, enable the new mod, then disable the old one. The right pane shouldn't need a change because the new ESP overwrites then substitutes for the old one, keeping its position.

 

 

If you had to do something special to fix your translation files, it's possible you have some similar problem for scripts, and your scripts are thus some mix of old and new ones?

 

Because MO keeps things so isolated, my setup is around three years old. Once or twice I have had to repair the base Skyrim install, but the MO config has not needed anything like that, it's almost entirely textures and meshes though.

 

Sometimes it's worth repairing the underlying Skyrim, but MO should be able to stay the same. If a mod causes problems, delete just that mod and re-install it.

 

 

Anyway, maybe best thing is delete your current DF mod install from MO completely, then install DF 2.12.2 clean.

Put the ESP near the end of your LO, definitely after AFT.

Make a new game. See if AFT is now recognized.

 

If that fixes the problem, then you can possibly fix your old game with save cleaning. It's not always reliably, but it's a shot.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, MachineGunLuke said:

Is there a list of vanilla followers that are Devious? The npc debug option doesn't seem to work for me. 

They all are unless you disable them from being devious using the ignore option in the Debug menu.

This includes vanilla hirelings (though some are not working reliably, especially if you lack the 500 to hire then properly).

Jenessa works fine, as I use her for testing all the time - assuming you have at least 500.

 

If none are becoming devious for you, there's a problem in your install.

[AlphaAndOmega]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

But I can see from your pictures that you are using MO, so translation files should only be in MO modules.

 

When you install a new DF, you should get the new translation files automatically, and then you disable or delete the old install and it's always up to date...

 

When you put your latest version of DF in, did you make a new mod install, or upgrade an old one?

Maybe there's something funny about upgrades?

 

Well, the easiest way to find out is to check the DF archive that we download and look at the translations folder. Everything that is not english is 5 months older.

Spoiler

 

And I actually won the fight with AFT. Something that I've always believed to be impossible had happened. LOOT had messed up. I've moved both DF and AFT to the very bottom (just above TesEditMerged and RequiemPatch) and restarted. It now works for both AFT and DF.

 

 

With the load order, proposed by LOOT something wasn't letting AFT to work.

Spoiler

I tried asking TesEdit (while using LOOT's load order), but I didn't find anything. Do you know where else should I look for to find the problem?

 

Spoiler

HirelingQuest from the AFT point of view

 

The hireling dialogue from the DF point of view

 

[Xiaron]

On 7/25/2020 at 10:22 PM, Lupine00 said:

On 7/25/2020 at 4:46 PM, Trill0 said:

New one: after modular deals triggered, the modular deal screen went "blank?" except for the word "disabled" in one place.  I have never seen this one before.  The follower still lists a buyout price and allowed buying out of whatever deals I had (I had no idea what they were), ah also the front page did not list whatever deals I have as modular, it just said Bear Deal, and had a 0 or something where it usually describes them.

 

Neither have I.

Probably needs some kind of way to reproduce it before spending any time looking for that.

 

I actually have seen this bug, but only when I botched a clean update after installing a new version over an existing one, since you mention the Bear Deal being set, I'm assuming that was the case @Trill0. I can even reproduce it if I update versions with a modular deal active, which I believe is on the list of things not to do when updating and possibly why @Lupine00 hasn't seen it?

[aspirine2]

when guards force pc to find their master ...and after pc convince npc follower..how can pc get rid of the follower ...there is no buying freedom or paying debts lines in the dialog ..how can pc be free again !?

[Lupine00]

40 minutes ago, aspirine2 said:

when guards force pc to find their master ...and after pc convince npc follower..how can pc get rid of the follower ...there is no buying freedom or paying debts lines in the dialog ..how can pc be free again !?

That's bugged. Follower should become a regular DF.

 

Debug Menu...

Pause DF

Remove follower with vanilla dialog.

Reset DF

Unpause DF

 

Re-hire follower. See if they become devious. If not, DF broken in your game.

[YojimboRatchet]

9 hours ago, aspirine2 said:

when guards force pc to find their master

 

oh, is this a feature from DF ? i always thought that was from Cursed Loot. it explains why i could never find how to turn this off. if this is DF, then how is it turned off in the MCM ?

[CaptainJ03]

1 hour ago, YojimboRatchet said:

 

oh, is this a feature from DF ? i always thought that was from Cursed Loot. it explains why i could never find how to turn this off. if this is DF, then how is it turned off in the MCM ?

Dunno how to turn it off, but it's only triggered when you have neither a follower nor enough willpower. If you can, get a six hour sleep before entering the city premises.

 

Can confirm the bug of not getting rid of your follower, even if you have paid all debt and tell them to bugger off ("time to part ways")

Lydia or Uthgerd keep following me like a doggie, and greet me with the "I hope you don't cheat on me like the others" starting-line after about 15 seconds.

 

Another annoyance (a bug?), which might be caused by a non-potatoe computer: When PC gets raped via DCL, sometimes stuff is forcefully unequipped. While the script is still re-applying the gag, I get punished for not wearing it.

 

BTW - did anyone report bugged piercing deals? If not, throw me a bone and I'll give you a rant ?

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, CaptainJ03 said:

Can confirm the bug of not getting rid of your follower, even if you have paid all debt and tell them to bugger off ("time to part ways")

Yes. I noted a few posts back that this is a highly reproducible bug, and is game-dependent. If your game is laggy or overloaded, or your computer is slow, you may sometimes manage to get rid of your follower. If your game is responsive, you won't be able to at all.

 

It's most definitely broken. The root cause is Lozeakian-variable-naming + laziness. I assumed that a function called DDelay() introduced ... a delay ... and did not check.

It does nothing of the sort.

 

This bug has been around since the early days of DF, it just manifested less reliably.

 

To fix it properly, I ... might as well ... rewrite the way that pay-offs work. And if I do that, I can change how recruitment works and get rid of the weird delay there.

The recruitment delay is at the root of maybe a third of the problems people have. They can't tell if recruitment is broken, or just slow.

 

However, I'm only able to work on this a little bit at a time, and I'm trying to rework the entire way that deals get offered, so that modular deals work like classic deals.

 

e.g. Instead of...

"I'll add a random rule to the Skeever deal."
> "OK."

> "No. I don't want that."

 

It would be...

"I want you to be naked in towns."

> "OK."

> "No. I don't want that."

 

I've done some new deals, but I still need to finish the milking deal and the key deal. They have some scaffolding but no real deal mechanics.

 

 

In the interim, I could release a quick patch for follower dismissal that means that if you pay-off the follower and make them dismissable, they are also dismissed, which would fix the issue most people are having.

 

[CaptainJ03]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

In the interim, I could release a quick patch for follower dismissal that means that if you pay-off the follower and make them dismissable, they are also dismissed, which would fix the issue most people are having.

Don't feel rushed by me. I can't do one of the quests from Laura's Bondage Shop (finding the thief in Solitude) but I'll just take another char for it. (after I've played through and uninstalled Devious Lore...)

 

Changing the deal dialogue from 'random rule' to actually being able to see what you're agreeing to, would make it much more immersive. Stick to that, I'll be around anyway: there are still enough other devious quests to do.

[Trill0]

On 8/5/2020 at 4:16 PM, Xiaron said:

 

I actually have seen this bug, but only when I botched a clean update after installing a new version over an existing one, since you mention the Bear Deal being set, I'm assuming that was the case @Trill0. I can even reproduce it if I update versions with a modular deal active, which I believe is on the list of things not to do when updating and possibly why @Lupine00 hasn't seen it?

I might have done that, that sounds like something I would do.

[aspirine2]

On 8/6/2020 at 6:29 AM, Lupine00 said:

That's bugged. Follower should become a regular DF.

 

Debug Menu...

Pause DF

Remove follower with vanilla dialog.

Reset DF

Unpause DF

 

Re-hire follower. See if they become devious. If not, DF broken in your game.

did so ..dismissed follower ..but when i enter mcm status ..npc follower is angry ..my pc is in debt ..!?

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, aspirine2 said:

..npc follower is angry ..my pc is in debt ..!?

I'm not clear.

What steps did you follow?

All of them?

Is this after hiring a completely new follower?

 

If so, you can reset the debt from the console.