Devious Followers - Continued

[RealGesichtsfelsen]

On 7/25/2020 at 11:51 AM, Lupine00 said:

I don't have any simple answers. Mjoll worked for me last time I recruited her, but that was some time ago, and I can't recall if it was using NFF or not.

 

In the case of Mjoll, I'd say it's different to mercenaries, because she is a regular follower who just isn't in the PotentialFollowerFaction until you complete her sword quest.

 

Stenvar has been reported as buggy before, so he is on the list for investigation.

 

Is it just Mjoll and Stenvar that have problems?

 

 

Does the debug menu recruit dialog work for Mjoll?

She shouldn't be recruitable in a new game, or offer vanilla recruitment dialog. By the time you've done the sword quest, it's not exactly a new game.

 

When you say "new game", do you simply mean "game started without EFF?"

 

EFF is ... supposed ... to work, as is AFT and NFF.

 

 

Anyone else see a problem with Mjoll? Is that only in vanilla? What about with different follower frameworks?

Sorry for the late reply.

 

Quote

When you say "new game", do you simply mean "game started without EFF?"

 

By "new game" I meant pressing "New game" in the main menu, quickly setting up a test character with alternate start and then COCing to the relevant location.

In order to recuit Mjoll I used RDO to set the relationship to 4, which allowed me to recuit her. But I can see that this might break things since its technically a cheat.

 

Stenvar was recruited (well, in this case was not) normally through the mercenary dialogue, no cheats here. I'll test with some other characters and use the debug menu. I'll report my findings.

 

I tried without having the EFF mod in my load order at all when creating the character and trying to recuit the follower and with.

 

Quote

What about with different follower frameworks?

She had the same issue with the Vanilla follower system. I'd like to avoid other follower frameworks since they are either too bloating for my likings or had some issues. Which follower framework do you use while developing/playing with this mod, if any?

 

Another thing I might want to mention is that I am using a bashed patch. Since I've never had issues with this in the past I don't think that this is a likely culprit, but I thought I'd mention it regardless.

 

 

[Lupine00]

11 minutes ago, RealGesichtsfelsen said:

Which follower framework do you use while developing/playing with this mod, if any?

Dev machine has none. My normal game has NFF, but I haven't updated it in a while.

I don't really use any features in NFF besides it lets me have more followers.

If I used EFF it would mean I'd have to sort out that giant cheat that is its extra inventory space, so I just put that off!

 

12 minutes ago, RealGesichtsfelsen said:

Another thing I might want to mention is that I am using a bashed patch. Since I've never had issues with this in the past I don't think that this is a likely culprit, but I thought I'd mention it regardless.

It shouldn't break DF, but I'd say, largely obsolete.

Tes5Edit Merge Patch, or ... if you are prepared to mess with it a bit, Mator Smash both do a lot more.

 

For the sort of mod stacks people build now (many hundreds of mods) if you don't make a merge patch and tweak it manually, the results are poor.

But unlikely to be related to your problems.

 

Mjoll has various special code on her, and I suspect that is a problem for your testing.

Just put a follower that you like in Riften and ignore Mjoll  

[RealGesichtsfelsen]

Interesting. Never heard of NFF, but it looks interestly, I think I'll try it out.

 

I just tried Mjoll & Stenvar because they were the first followers that came to mind that are just roaming around in the world to test with

 

So I tried the following NPCs:

• Fandal: Works
• Sven: Works
• Marucio (merc): Works
• Vorstag (merc): Works
• Force-adding a non-follower NPC as a follower with EFF: Works
• Stenvar (merc): Nope
• Mjoll: Nope
• A random modded NPC: Nope

Some questions popped up while testing this:

• There is sometimes a substatial delay between hiring the NPC and DF initializing for it (what I assume is the "you better pay me unlike other adventures..." message) - Is this caused by script load or is there something determining this delay?
• Is there a way to recuit a follower without DF? I can image that I might want to recuit a follower that does not use the DF system at all. I saw an option in the debug menu to flag a follower as a non-DF follower. Would that do what I want?

[Lupine00]

9 minutes ago, RealGesichtsfelsen said:

A random modded NPC: Nope

??? What does this mean ???

 

I have a substantial number of follower packs installed, dozens of followers, and never had one fail to be devious.

 

  

10 minutes ago, RealGesichtsfelsen said:

There is sometimes a substatial delay between hiring the NPC and DF initializing for it (what I assume is the "you better pay me unlike other adventures..." message) - Is this caused by script load or is there something determining this delay?

It's however long it takes the follower to say hello.

 

I left it like this because that's how Lozeak did it. Technically, they could become devious instantly if you have a follower framework.

Having it vary for vanilla is a pain, so it's awkward to fix for the two variants cases. Easier to leave it alone for now.

It's always been like that.

  

10 minutes ago, RealGesichtsfelsen said:

Is there a way to recuit a follower without DF? I can image that I might want to recuit a follower that does not use the DF system at all. I saw an option in the debug menu to flag a follower as a non-DF follower. Would that do what I want?

Most likely.

That follower will never become devious or be handled by DF.

DF will not count it towards your paid follower count either.

[RealGesichtsfelsen]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

??? What does this mean ???

 

I grabbed the first non-vanilla follower off the streets that was walking around. Clicking "Follow me, I need your help" did nothing, similar to how trying to hire Stenvar does nothing.

Without DF I can recurit both of them as normal.

 

I'll try with NFF and see if recruiting DF followers works more reliable with it than Vanilla/EFF follower system.

 

Edit: NFF has a more stable vibe to me, for example I was able to hire modded NPCs as devious followers without any issues. The two culprits Stenvar and Mjoll are still giving trouble, but I can easily work around that.

I'll start my new character in the next few days and see if it holds up in an actual playthrough

 

Quote

Most likely.

That follower will never become devious or be handled by DF.

DF will not count it towards your paid follower count either.

Okay, I see.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, RealGesichtsfelsen said:

Edit: NFF has a more stable vibe to me, for example I was able to hire modded NPCs as devious followers without any issues. The two culprits Stenvar and Mjoll are still giving trouble, but I can easily work around that.

It feels a lot like something is overwriting recruit (and possibly dismiss) dialogs in your game.

 

Do you use USLEEP?

Do you use RDO?

 

Is there any mod that could reasonably be tampering with followers?

 

If you install the absolute minimum for a working game with DF, with DF last in LO, does it work?

 

OR

 

If you load your entire LO into Tes5Edit and check the recruit/dismiss dialogs in there, can you see any overwrites?

[YojimboRatchet]

hi Lupine00,

 

i was reading about your intent regarding the "follower places his/her hand on you", and you have to say you're a slut. while i do think your suggested solution has potential, it still feels a bit incomplete to me. i have read other comments by others as well regarding this, and even then, it just feels like, trying to complicate something by trying to do too much on something that should (and could) be very simple.

 

while i don't pretend to be as creative as many here, or have answers for everything, i think this might be one of those "take a step back, do something else, and it will hit you when it hits you" kind of thing.

 

i personally think that it has so much potential right now without having to revamp it all or change how it works. besides, too much text option already when speaking to npc's / followers already based on what / how many mods someone has installed anyway. having an extra option that may or may not show up depending on which other mods are in play, as it is my understanding that there is a limitation on how many text options can be displayed (i could be wrong there, i do recall reading this somewhere though).

 

my issues with how it works now, are simple really. that the follower should say this either (1) right as you select the NPC to speak to, before the conversation options all show up, or (2) at the end of the conversation with the npc. sometimes i see this happening in the middle of one, so it does get annoying (especially when you're gagged and have to go through that whole gagged speach again lol).

 

the other issue i have is that, the results are a bit of a letdown. there are no real repercussions to this.  at least not in an immersive way. one that could use the current system you already have in place as well. it could affect the willpower completely, and / or the resistance. hell, if DF had a "self-esteem" setting, that would definitely be a way to add an immersive feel to this. i mean, if you kind of think about it, someone in real life is forced to say something like this to anyone, be it in private or worse, in a public setting, they would be humiliated by any means, a total hit on their self-esteem which affects other things too. so maybe having a system in play to reflect this, which, in turn, would give more control to the follower, when the player slowly loses their willpower and resistance.

 

also exploiting this, like, for example, the follower puts the hand on the should forcing you to say "i'm a slut". maybe start it off as a whisper. the NPC would reply "i'm sorry, what was that, can you speak louder please, i didn't hear you" and then, the PC says it a bit louder, and again the NPC "come again, i didn't quite get that" and then out of frustration, the PC yells it out, and when the PC does, and others are around, then "everyone" has some kind of comment, the PC feels like they want to crawl into a cave and hide there for a loooong time. the possibilities are endless in how to approach this thing.

 

anyway, just though, i'd add a bit of spice to your thoughts, and hopefully it gives you ideas. if not, then thank you for reading my long winded suggestions

 

also, i have one more question. more of a relationship with Simple Slavery. not sure if this can be done, or if this is intended or not, but, when SS sends you to DF, and you haven't specified a follower to be "enslaved to" in the MCM, then SS sends you to "any" follower. this is where it gets a bit difficult, because some followers you actually have to "pay" to hire them. most are free which works fine and no issues when triggering the enslavement and the deals and so on. the problem with the "paid" followers, is that SS strips you of all your gold, so when you get to the "paid" follower, you have no gold at all, so you can't actually pay them and hire them, so they don't get to follow you at all, they will sit there as normal. you could of course cheat using console commands, or add gold through addititem, but that's kind of a lame way of doing it.

 

is there a way to make it so that only followers that are "free" can be valid for SS slavery outcome ? or is that too hard ?

 

(btw, Jarl easter egg ? lol what is that about ?)

[audhol]

14 hours ago, YojimboRatchet said:

(btw, Jarl easter egg ? lol what is that about ?)

I was given the hint so I'll pass it on.

 

Spoiler

You need to have low willpower and high debt and also have cuffs and collar but no chastity. also you need to be in the presence of a jarl. Probably best to speak to jarl of whiterun about the dragon first before trying to trigger it.

 

[valcon767]

14 hours ago, YojimboRatchet said:

(btw, Jarl easter egg ? lol what is that about ?)

Jarl easter egg (game) has specific requirements, and all MUST be met for it to trigger

 

no chastity devices
collar worn
Jarl's Longhouse/Palace location (by keyword)
low willpower (below 6 IIRC)
high debt (over half enslavement debt)
5 deals total running (1 stage 3 and 1 stage 2 would work)
approach close to Jarl (i think)

 

 

[crudo]

Just ran into a problem trying to dismiss a follower, Kjollir from Follower Pack III.  I paid off all debts and deals and got the dialogue to clear debt and follower will be dismissible.  I use EFF and in the past the only way I could cleanly dismiss a Devious Follower was by using the command wheel and selecting dismiss.  It did not work through the command wheel or through the normal dialogue.  It's been three days and Kjollir keeps following me around adding debt.  I should add that I did pause the mod once when my character was sent to prison but started it again upon release.  I know there is a debug section in the DF MCM.  I tried two options and neither worked, I forget what they were exactly, sorry.  At this point are there any suggestions to get rid of my Devious Follower.  Thanks.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, crudo said:

At this point are there any suggestions to get rid of my Devious Follower.  Thanks.

Try using the reset option in EFF, followed by rehire, followed by pay-off, then using the It's time to part ways dialog, get rid of the follower.

 

If you do not see "It's time to part ways" and instead see something like, "I don't need your help any longer" then DF does not believe the follower is eligible for removal.

I made this difference deliberately to help people diagnose this problem.

 

If you cannot remove the follower through dialogs, they will not be removed from DF properly.

 

However, if you use EFF reset followers, followed by DF reset, that may do it.

 

Also, you can pause DF, and then sack the follower through dialog, then reset DF, then unpause DF.

 

Lots of permutations to try.

 

I you find that DF dialogs do not remove the follower from EFF, then you probably did not let DF's install properly overwrite EFF, and your EFF integration isn't working properly at all.

 

 

There is definitely a (fairly uncommon) bug that means that a follower will never be eligible for removal, and I have repro for it. I just need to debug it and work out the underlying problem. In this case you pay off the follower so they are dismissable, but the dialog never changes from "no longer need your help" to "part ways". And if you don't see part ways, the follower will not dismiss.

[crudo]

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Try using the reset option in EFF, followed by rehire, followed by pay-off, then using the It's time to part ways dialog, get rid of the follower...

Thank you for the lengthy reply.  I will give these ideas a go and see what happens.

[Clea Strange]

You know that see through outfit that you get for Frostfall, would it not be possible to also give the see through heels to go with it

[Lupine00]

5 minutes ago, Hiderius said:

You know that see through outfit that you get for Frostfall, would it not be possible to also give the see through heels to go with it

It depends what heels you are thinking of.

If the heel model is free for use, or already in DD assets or extension, then it's certainly possible.

 

It might confuse some people, making them think they must be worn. I guess that can also be overcome.

I'll have a look, but it feels like the sort of think I'd leave until I clean up all the DD interfacing.

[crudo]

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

However, if you use EFF reset followers, followed by DF reset, that may do it.

 

My follower was dismissed after I tried the above.  Thanks!

[twsnider1138]

20 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

There is definitely a (fairly uncommon) bug that means that a follower will never be eligible for removal, and I have repro for it. I just need to debug it and work out the underlying problem. In this case you pay off the follower so they are dismissable, but the dialog never changes from "no longer need your help" to "part ways". And if you don't see part ways, the follower will not dismiss.

I am having this problem with Lydia right now as well but I’m using ATF for my follower management. I had “part ways” available but I can’t dismiss her until I paused the mod and dismissed her that way. However that caused another problem as pausing the mod then locks me out of all the Devious Followers menus, I literally cannot click on anything and make it work. In fact it seems to lock the entire MCM as I can’t even access another mod’s options like DCUR. I’m checking if it’s just because I’m impatient and giving it 5 minutes to catch up to me, which might JUST be the problem ?. The only thing I did to modify Lydia after installing DF was to get Bijin Warmaidens to alter her appearance to something more pleasing.

 

With a bit more experimenting, I can confirm the glitch is continuing with Lydia and I cannot remove her without pausing the mod and ejecting her that way. I removed the mod and made a clean save file before reinstalling it. I didn’t have this problem with DCUR’s Chloe but I’ll have to try it with another in game companion.

[Lupine00]

On 7/30/2020 at 5:14 AM, YojimboRatchet said:

also, i have one more question. more of a relationship with Simple Slavery. not sure if this can be done, or if this is intended or not, but, when SS sends you to DF, and you haven't specified a follower to be "enslaved to" in the MCM, then SS sends you to "any" follower. this is where it gets a bit difficult, because some followers you actually have to "pay" to hire them. most are free which works fine and no issues when triggering the enslavement and the deals and so on. the problem with the "paid" followers, is that SS strips you of all your gold, so when you get to the "paid" follower, you have no gold at all, so you can't actually pay them and hire them, so they don't get to follow you at all, they will sit there as normal. you could of course cheat using console commands, or add gold through addititem, but that's kind of a lame way of doing it

This was changed so that the first follower you fire will be a default SS follower.

 

The hire process shouldn't apply with enslavement, so that's basically a bug.

 

Regarding the slut deal; the intent of the existing code covers more or less everything you describe, except the escalating humiliation, which would be hard to do convincingly. Just putting [whispers] in front of some dialog doesn't really "sell" the feeling of a whisper.

 

The delay in the blocking dialog is a Skyrim problem; there's no trivial fix for that.

There's a condition in the dialog but it sometimes takes Skyrim a long time to process it.

That problem would be solved by not using blocking dialogs.

 

Blocking dialogs cause other problems. They need to be used very sparingly, and too many LL mods are trying to use them at the same time now, with amusing results. I believe there is some kind of condition problem at the moment that is causing the sex to not happen.

 

If the sex happened as intended, the change in events at low willpower values would escalate quickly. This was really something of a problem before, where slut deal + armbinder quickly led to zero willpower in just a couple of conversations.

 

Willpower is a representation of self-esteem. Resistance is a way of adding granularity to a system that Lozeak originally intended to be a simple 0 to 10 scale.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, twsnider1138 said:

I am having this problem with Lydia right now as well but I’m using ATF for my follower management.

I believe I can see the cause of all these dismissal problems.

 

The original code relied on a race condition to work, and other changes have shifted the timing a bit.

It is currently all but impossible to dismiss a follower. Certainly, the faster your computer the harder it is, and likely anyone without a potato has problems.

Because my dev box is a very small potato, I didn't see this immediately.

 

I'm going to have to devise a new (properly reliable) mechanic for full-payout, which isn't a bad thing as I can probably get rid of the delay on hire, which is bound up with it.

[YojimboRatchet]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Willpower is a representation of self-esteem. Resistance is a way of adding granularity to a system that Lozeak originally intended to be a simple 0 to 10 scale.

hmm

 

i think you may want to reconsider this. self-esteem and willpower is completely different, so is confidence. i don't see willpower at all as the same as self-esteem, as it goes hand in hand more with confidence. willpower being its own thing.

 

but you also have a point in, that, it would be difficult to represent things like humiliation and degradation into actual emotional impact, such as self-esteem, self-worth, self-confidence. these things are things that, a dominant follower could seize the opportunity to slowly take control over the PC, and the PC decisions, paths and so on. (i wish i could code like you do, my head's getting kinda full with things i wanna try and just using CK isn't enough lol)

 

i just wish there was  a way/system that didn't involve constant sex, and focused more on the control and immersive gameplay.

 

 

anyway, thank you for the reply, and i hope the bug fix will be in future versions

 

 

[jgold101]

When I pay my follower say 100 gold it only removes a fraction of that in debt. I just want to know is this the intended response and are there any options in the MCM to allow me to just pay in a 1 to 1 ratio. I am using the latest SE version.

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, jgold101 said:

When I pay my follower say 100 gold it only removes a fraction of that in debt. I just want to know is this the intended response and are there any options in the MCM to allow me to just pay in a 1 to 1 ratio. I am using the latest SE version.

Does it say "Your follower is tired and miscounted?"

 

You can also check with the follower as to how they feel.

If they say they are tired, that would be expected in this case.

 

If the follower is tired, it's by design. Sleep for at least six hours, then pay, it should pay off the full value.

If not, that's a bug.

[Clea Strange]

On 7/30/2020 at 7:04 PM, Lupine00 said:

It depends what heels you are thinking of.

If the heel model is free for use, or already in DD assets or extension, then it's certainly possible.

 

It might confuse some people, making them think they must be worn. I guess that can also be overcome.

I'll have a look, but it feels like the sort of think I'd leave until I clean up all the DD interfacing.

 

sorry what I mean is if you have frostfall and you tell the follower that it is cold, they will give you an Exhibitionist Suit. What I was wondering, would it be possible that the follower also give you Exhibitionist Boots to go with the Exhibitionist Suit that they give you cause its cold?

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, Hiderius said:

if you have frostfall and you tell the follower that it is cold, they will give you an Exhibitionist Suit

I only have the same answer.

 

1) I haven't checked that the reason the boots (shoes really) aren't used is because of a rights issue.

 

2) Should the player be obligated to wear these boots? Should they not? Does the mod need to explain to the player that they can choose to put on one, both, or neither of the items?

 

And is the follower required to help you out of the boots?

 

The entire mechanic probably needs review, but that isn't practical until after the bigger DD problems are solved.

 

If people aren't following this:

• DF uses the DD library to fit items.
• That library has serious flaws, even if used carefully.
• The library bugs are impacting dozens of mods, not just DF.
• The DD library calls need to be replaced with custom code to work around the DD bugs.
• DD will not fix those bugs, or at least it seems quite unlikely at this time.
• I cannot fix the problem for every other mod, but I can at least reduce the problem for devices DF adds.
• I want to minimize new device functionality until this and the LDC are overhauled.

[bubba999]

I have a suggestion. Could you add support for these spanking animations? They are really good.

 

Thank you!

 

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, bubba999 said:

I have a suggestion. Could you add support for these spanking animations? They are really good.

I've commented on these previously.