Devious Followers - Continued

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

I think the problem there was that many people, including me, read that as being part of the sly behavior of the "regular" DF who tells you you're incompetent even though you're not, as opposed to a strong follower intended for a truly weak PC.  You've mentioned that some (or much) of the feature discussion is actually to go into a separate mod, so we're just a little confused about what will go into DFC versus the other mod, that's all.  These kinds of clarifications help us understand. 

If it wasn't super-clear, the musings are musings and the plan is the plan  

 

The plan has not changed much; it's been a quite consistent set of items:

• Fix disparate small bugs.
• Fix follower frameworks.
• Tweak willpower/resistance/debt-gain mechanics to encourage taking deals and make a reasonable spread of willpower values more likely.
  • Willpower fatigue accumulates if not enough deals.
  • Pay off deals to remove fatigue.
  • Make donations to remove fatigue.
  • Deals kept after min duration reduce costs by percentage.
  • A new game that can occur with no device requirements, only if no deals for long enough.
• Fix soft-dep issues that break compatibility with mods like RDO.
• Fix the scanner.
• Fix LDC.
• New loot/cash handling features. (Keys and gold particularly). Follower can sell loot for you.
• New deals and games:
  • Skooma deal (SW users only)
  • Milk deal (MME users only)
  • Spanking deal (STA users only)
  • An offer sex deal
  • Exclusivity deal
  • Pony deal
  • Skooma games 1 and 2 (SW users only)
  • EC+ game

 

And that's roughly the order. I adjust the order as things turn out to be quick or easy, but it's roughly that.

Currently working on follower frameworks. Did EFF last night. Maybe I'll manage NFF today.

I'm also adding the stuff for willpower fatigue at the same time.

 

If you have a deal idea that got brought up earlier, then feel free to report it with a one or two line summary (don't describe the whole deal again), so I can give a clear answer whether I think it's worth adding to the list (some deals may be good ideas, but too time consuming).

 

 

Also, as a result of random discussion, the following ideas seem likely to go somewhere:

• A mode where follower takes all or most of the loot.
• A mode where the follower sets the "direction" by means of a radiant quest (you can still ignore, but will be punished).
• A mode where cash debt is disabled (but you can't dismiss the follower) and where a (time-limited) quest is required to clear it.
• Deal(s) where the follower requires you to perform some daily action or perform fetch quests, with disposition stat determining if you are achieving your goals or failing.
• Followers getting into player home chests to pay debts or enforce punishments.

[pihwht]

Had a curious experience this evening. I paused a well developed game which had begun crashing to try an SS beginning. That went fine, but after I finished the first run with the Markarth housecarl I noticed I had dialog options to dismiss the follower who purchased my character. Of course we did it immediately while wearing the yoke. We ran away and managed to get to Whiterun. In Whiterun the owner's disembodied voice began appearing. I was expecting thugs or slavers, but instead we got a disembodied voice offering the player's services. When we finally got out of the Whiterun POP jail and accumulated a little money, we went back to confront the villain in Markarth. No confrontation occurred, of course. Instead the disembodied voice slapped us in a yoke and confiscated our possessions. Very unsettling, that voice.

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, pihwht said:

Had a curious experience this evening. I paused a well developed game which had begun crashing to try an SS beginning.

SS is all kinds of broken. I'm not even going to try and guess what happened.

[Lupine00]

Started on NFF support. Yuk. Remembered why I hate NFF.

 

I'm only going to support the minimal install.

 

Extras, like the Interesting NPCs support and the overwrite all scripts option, and other oddities just aren't worth it.

 

Is this a big problem?

[pihwht]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

SS is all kinds of broken. I'm not even going to try and guess what happened.

SS worked perfectly. I'm in windows 10 and most of the mods I want work well. I was having quite a good time until Vorstag's disembodied voice started manifesting. I got out of the yoke, got weapons and enough money for a ride to Markarth and went to confront him. His putting a yoke on me without even waking up irritated me enough that I used the console to get rid of him.

 

By the way, DF has been working very well.

[user9120975435]

45 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

There seems to be a CTD causing conflict with Dangerous Nights 2

Had it happen 2 (out of 2) times that if DN2 triggers at the same time DF wants to start an event (after sleeping), the game will crash

 

Sexlab Adventures also have sleep rape and at least IMHO are a much better mod than DN2.

[HexBolt8]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Started on NFF support. Yuk. Remembered why I hate NFF.

 

I'm only going to support the minimal install.

 

Extras, like the Interesting NPCs support and the overwrite all scripts option, and other oddities just aren't worth it.

 

Is this a big problem?

Not a problem for me.  Minimal support is fine.  Out of curiosity, which follower framework do you prefer, Lupine00?  I was quite happy with NFF in its early days, but I'm concerned that it's going to get killed by feature bloat. 

18 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Spanking deal (STA users only)

Might there also be a non-STA spanking deal, presumably less interesting but still available?

[SkyAddiction]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Started on NFF support. Yuk. Remembered why I hate NFF.

 

I'm only going to support the minimal install.

 

Extras, like the Interesting NPCs support and the overwrite all scripts option, and other oddities just aren't worth it.

 

Is this a big problem?

 

Not a problem. NFF, at least the core of the mod, is excellent. All the cotton candy additions are pointless as far as I'm concerned.

[legraf]

On 10/18/2019 at 8:33 PM, Lupine00 said:

ModEvent: DF-ResistanceLoss

Could you please put this in the mod description (with details in a a spoiler), Lupine00, so other modders can readily find it?

 

Also, I'd like to know... does DFC provide any feedback when it receives this ModEvent?  And does it always "accept" it, or might there be circumstances when it overrides the resistance loss "request"?  I ask because I'd like to know if my calling mod should give the player feedback or count on DF doing so, and if the sending mod does give feedback, should it be "xx resistance lost" or "xx resistance loss sent to DF".

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, legraf said:

Also, I'd like to know... does DFC provide any feedback when it receives this ModEvent?  And does it always "accept" it, or might there be circumstances when it overrides the resistance loss "request"?  I ask because I'd like to know if my calling mod should give the player feedback or count on DF doing so, and if the sending mod does give feedback, should it be "xx resistance lost" or "xx resistance loss sent to DF".

Resistance loss has historically always been silent.

If it results in willpower loss, that is reported.

 

The only time it would fail to remove resistance is if you hit don't have any left to lose.

It should probably check the mod isn't paused. I can't recall if it does - but if it doesn't that should be fixed.

[Lupine00]

13 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Out of curiosity, which follower framework do you prefer, Lupine00?

I you look at the source, and the quality of engineering there. EFF stands so far above any other follower mod that they're almost in different worlds.

 

And in practice, EFF is fast, reliable, and has extensive features to fix up broken situations that arise due to this or that mod doing something strange.

 

The wheels though ... not everyone loves those wheel menus. EFF doesn't do some things that NFF does now, but it would have been better to add those to EFF as plugins than write a new follower manager. Unless the reason is just to have it named after yourself?

 

In comparison, NFF is like a rehash of old AFT code, but messier and more limiting. In many ways NFF feels like a step back from both EFF and AFT. 

The only thing it has in its favor is being written long after the popular custom followers and 3DNPC followers it supports.

It has the benefit of hindsight, but it's not created in a methodical way; it's a haphazard accumulation.

 

 

I think it's generally a sign that if there are a lot of options in a FOMOD to patch for this mod or that mod, or the other mod:

a) the author can't understand soft-deps, or,

b) there is too much ESP dependency to start with

 

It's a horrid problem with weather, climate and lighting mods. Patch for this, patch for that, patch for the other. And the mod that you're patching for also has patches. You end up with patches on patches and patches and no clue what order the patches need to go without crawling through every record of it in Tes5Edit, and even then you might not be sure whether some records should be merged or not. That's where NFF is headed.

[Tiress]

On 12/15/2019 at 1:53 PM, Lupine00 said:

Started on NFF support. Yuk. Remembered why I hate NFF.

 

I'm only going to support the minimal install.

 

Extras, like the Interesting NPCs support and the overwrite all scripts option, and other oddities just aren't worth it.

 

Is this a big problem?

Probably not, it's hard to say without knowing what the impact might be, but I never had any issues even without the patch so it might be fine.

[Katie schnurr]

ok i kinda have a problem i run this with troubles of the heroine ok i have bruiser as a devious follower he put a heavy yoke on me but says he cant remove it.how do i get it off then????struggle does no good i have been trying to struggle 5 in game days every hour and am still stuck in it at this point i think my game is just destroyed and forced to start over. the problem im having is i cant open a map and am in the woods just stuck running circles and not on purpose he has me blind folded to so sight is not what it could be of course no option to ask him to remove the blind fold.

[legraf]

On 10/18/2019 at 8:33 PM, Lupine00 said:

ModEvent: DF-ResistanceLoss

 

Implemented as:

Function HandleResistanceLoss(String eventNameUnused, String strUnused, Float resistanceToRemove, Form sender)

 

Set the Float parameter to the amount of resistance that you want to remove (a positive amount).

Negative amounts will be ignored.

 

Could you please make a complementary DF-ResistanceGain event, or accept negative inputs to DF-ResistanceLoss?  Sure enough, I have an application for the gain.

 

 

On 10/18/2019 at 11:55 PM, Lupine00 said:

Because actually that is a ton of work (resistance increase was allowed to rot in transition from 1.X to 2.X), and nobody seems to need it, so YAGNI applies.

 

Oh, right.  Well, darn.  Kind of written into a corner, then.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, legraf said:

Oh, right.  Well, darn.  Kind of written into a corner, then.

If you really need it, I could fix it, it's not that much work. But not worth doing without an actual application.

 

What would it be for? Let me guess? Stealing your panties back?

[Lupine00]

13 hours ago, Katie schnurr said:

ok i kinda have a problem i run this with troubles of the heroine ok i have bruiser as a devious follower he put a heavy yoke on me but says he cant remove it.how do i get it off then????struggle does no good i have been trying to struggle 5 in game days every hour and am still stuck in it at this point i think my game is just destroyed and forced to start over. the problem im having is i cant open a map and am in the woods just stuck running circles and not on purpose he has me blind folded to so sight is not what it could be of course no option to ask him to remove the blind fold.

I think there is a bug in yoke removal. I had follower refuse to remove a regular yoke that used normal keys.

I need to look into it.

[Zaflis]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

I think there is a bug in yoke removal. I had follower refuse to remove a regular yoke that used normal keys.

I need to look into it.

Some yokes may need 2 (restraint) keys to open.

[legraf]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If you really need it, I could fix it, it's not that much work. But not worth doing without an actual application.

 

What would it be for? Let me guess? Stealing your panties back?

Nah, I don't "need" it, and I imagine the user base looking to pickpocket stolen panties back is countable on thumbs.  I also pictured resistance loss/gain on failing/succeeding to fight off SLHH events, and looking for other simpler situations into which a change (up or down) in DF resistance might be injected, but these are definitely down the road, not for now.

 

You evoked YAGNI when I brought this up before, which was & is appropriate - though also said that resistance gain had been neglected so was now hard to implement.  That is more of a problem as you know, since the same XP that gave us YAGNI also stressed the importance of malleable code.  So as you're revising DF, I hope you'll consider diminishing that rigidity as you bump into it, or at minimum not extending that rigidity (I'm sure you're not, you're obviously on top of your code) which is not the same thing as implementing features before they're (never) needed.

[HexBolt8]

3 hours ago, legraf said:

Nah, I don't "need" it, and I imagine the user base looking to pickpocket stolen panties back is countable on thumbs.

Aw, I was looking forward to a small resistance bump for avenging the injustice.  If I'm just one thumb though, I can live without it.

[Lupine00]

19 hours ago, Zaflis said:

Some yokes may need 2 (restraint) keys to open.

Not relevant for removal via DD API though. And the yokes that fail don't even need that.

[Lupine00]

13 hours ago, legraf said:

Nah, I don't "need" it, and I imagine the user base looking to pickpocket stolen panties back is countable on thumbs.

It's at least thumbs. There's Hexbolt ... and me. Maybe. If I could be bothered to try and figure out who actually took the panties in the first place.

 

I think it would be fun to burgle the thief's house and steal ALL your panties back.

 

It's not that the code is hard to fix, it's just that the resistance add needs to be rewritten from scratch because the old code doesn't calculate resistance correctly.

This is by no means a great undertaking... Adding the mod event for it will be almost as much busywork. And no, not going to allow the lose resistance event to specify -ve value to add resistance, that's just perverse. It will be a new event. When I can be bothered. But it's now on my 2.07 list. Don't feel like coding NFF support today... And now I realise I missed something for AFT and EFF, so have to uninstall and reinstall both of them to test the update.

[legraf]

27 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

It's at least thumbs. There's Hexbolt ... and me. Maybe. If I could be bothered to try and figure out who actually took the panties in the first place.

Ah, then we're up to thumbs for a polydactyl, perhaps!  Radial polydactyly in this case.

 

The thief is identified if you choose that option in the MCM - rationalized as perhaps they left a clue that tips off the PC.  But it'll be a long, long while before I have the thief actually storing great collections of stolen items.

 

[Lupine00]

19 minutes ago, legraf said:

But it'll be a long, long while before I have the thief actually storing great collections of stolen items.

... Posts screenshot of a Chest, photoshopped to say "Panty Collection".

Can we have an option for "pristine" or "smelly" to determine whether the thief washes them or not?  

[HexBolt8]

I knew that perv Nazeem was hiding something.

Spoiler

 

 

 

[valcon767]

@HexBolt8

 

lol .. yeah he's a perv.  if you have DCUR and do the Chloe quest it fits sooooo well.