Devious Followers - Continued

[Darkwing241]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

What? What? Does it support high heels for bikini armors too?

Heels for almost every armor in the game, each is made from the base boots and other pieces of armor so that they match the default stuff.  They would also match any of the other custom armors that are made that way (world of bikini armor, book of uunp ect.)

 

I'm an amateur, I don't know much about tagging things to get them interacting with other mods but they should match aesthetically, and they are NIoveride.  Not really sure what they would need to "support bikini armor" to be honest.

 

I have two versions of the mod one that is stand alone craftables, and one that replaces the vanilla boots.

 

I think they came out great, better than most of the options available, and it's a fairly complete list of what is supported.

 

[HexBolt8]

Deal idea:  Proper Recognition.

 

The deal's purpose is the DF's gratification and your humiliation, and to motivate the player to Do Things without cash being a necessary goal.  

 

The DF wants people to know that he/she is the real hero.  Every X days (default 7) you must praise the DF to a jarl (any one).  It's no good if you keep giving the same praise, so each time the praise must be different than the last time, and it must a different jarl.  (Not really that hard.  You could tell Balgruuf praise "A", Elisif praise "B", and repeat forever).  The DF wants to look good, and for you to make yourself look bad.  

 

The trick is triggering different praises. 

 

There's one always available, that you're lost without <FollowerName> to tell you what to do, and the jarl should consider making the DF an adviser.  Others become available depending on what you've done since the last praise.  When the next praise cycle starts, you must unlock praises all over again (no goofing off).  If the DF gets annoyed with you, the DF might shorten the time for that cycle.  Examples of things you might unlock:

 

If you clear an area or loot a boss chest, you can tell the jarl how the DF saved your life (doesn't matter if that really happened).  If the hold needs a hero, look no further than the DF. 

 

If you entered gold control or exceeded a debt threshold, you can tell the jarl that you have trouble managing your money, but fortunately the DF does that for you.  Maybe the jarl should put the DF in charge of the treasury.

 

If you killed a dragon, you thought the battle was hopeless but the DF slew the creature while you were downed.  The DF should be known as Dragon Slayer.  (If playing as the Dragonborn, it seems that you're just a receptacle for dragon souls, but you're not very good at killing them.)

 

If you got caught stealing an item of value (you don't get this one by swiping a a tomato), you admit that you can't keep your hands to yourself, but the DF made you return what you stole.  Maybe the jarl could use a new captain of the guard.  If you exceed and pay off (or serve time for) a bounty threshold for any hold, the DF made you turn yourself in.  The jarl might want to make the DF a bounty hunter.

 

Just some ideas.  The actual wording should refer to the DF by name (using an alias tag), which avoids the awkwardness of determining the right title.  ("My follower" is no good, "companion" or "friend" suggest that you're at the same level, and owner/master/mistress requires enslavement or a dom/sub relationship.)

[HexBolt8]

28 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Say you don't wear the outfit you promised to wear? What then? The follower punishes you with something else, like cash debt, or devices?

Is it immersive?

For the first pass, I suggest simply going with debt punishment.  It's not fun or interesting, but it is effective, and keeping that aspect simple lets you get the new deals in more easily.  Let people try them, and it should become clear which ones would benefit from a more appropriate punishment.

 

Unless the intent is to catch the player unawares to trigger a punishment, such as entering a city/town location without those heels you promised to wear in town (Lozeak seemed to like that), I'd appreciate a warning before punishment kicks in.  I'm not a fan of "gotcha" failures.  The point to me is having to wear an outfit or item with punishment for willful noncompliance.  If force greets for warnings are a pain, a simple notification would work ("<FollowerName> frowns at you for not wearing your heels").  Perhaps warnings could be toggled for players who like slipping up.

 

Regarding following frameworks, will Nethers at least be minimally supported?  I don't care if there are things like two dismiss options, I can ignore the one that doesn't apply, just that DFC should correctly recognize followers. 

[justbob2]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

The problem is that tails don't have a keyword, as far as I'm aware, so it checks by ID, or possibly by alias. It will be a simple condition in a dialog anyway.

 

Sex Slaves has several funny tails, including a cute bunny tail.

 

It's possible to fix, but probably non-trivial effort.

 

You can just hack the tail in Tes5Edit and make it use the AA of the item you like the look of.

I'm not experienced in Tes5Edit, but I opened the DeviousFollowers.esp file and saw 3 instances of the Cute Pony Tail. (_DflowPonyTailInventory, _DflowPonyTailInventory2, and _DflowPonyTailDealInventory)  Do I need to edit each of these?  And can I just change the FormID or do I need to change each instance in the file? (for example ARMO:6B028AC9)

 

I'm not asking for a full tutorial, I'm just trying to determine the difficulty to see if it's worth the effort.  After all, it's just a minor cosmetic change to the game.

[legraf]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

The question I'm still struggling with in terms of alternate payments, is what do alternate debts look like? How can the PC be punished?

 

When it's pure cash, it's simply. Debt = punishment, and it's effective. You do not want it.

 

With non-cash, when you're paying in fetch quests and promises of sex, or wearing slooty outfits, how can you be punished in a way that is ... effective ... but not too hard to create?

 

The solution, I think, is to track something like follower's "Dissatisfaction".  After all, in the current debt-based system, "debt" itself is really just a way of tracking how deep the PC's hole has become - adding debt isn't itself a punishment but a deepening of the hole, with possible triggering of events (gold control, enforced deals, selling items, potions) when it gets too deep.  "Debt" is currently an arbitrary number, requiring various actions by the PC to erase before the DF will be content.  It just so happens that those actions involve gaining, then turning over, gold to the DF.  But don't think of "Debt" in terms of gold, think of it as a game statistic that is influenced by turning over gold.  Replace "Debt" with "Dissatisfaction" and you still have a stat reflecting the PC "owing" the DF something or being out of the DF's good graces.

 

There's nothing wrong with keeping a debt system in parallel perhaps, but if the intent is to push debt & gold-sink aspects to the side as peripheral to the relationship, it could be separated entirely from the real tracked statistic that matters to the DF, their satisfaction/dissatisfaction.  As is the case for debt now, it may sometimes reach a point where the DF requires action now to get a little ways  back into their good graces.  All of the same options as currently available would be present.  Gold control is a little less organic this way, though not necessarily: I can imagine one way Dissatisfaction regularly accumulates is when the DF sees themselves as "not equal partners" (language which will change as the relationship evolves)... the PC keeps deciding where they're going, and keeps deciding how their "shared" loot shall be used.

 

So, daily Dissatisfaction rises a bit - that rise can be reduced by turning over gold control, by wearing items for the DF's amusement, or lowered by accepting the DF's occasional suggestion as to which quest to tackle next, or to take on a DF-assigned quest.

 

Debt can be retained, and high debt will surely result in more dissatisfaction - but dissatisfaction, not debt, is then the trigger for events.

 

Dissatisfaction of course increases when the DF is knocked down or worse.

 

This replaces my earlier thoughts on "mood", though I could imagine, pie-in-the-sky fashion, a slow-changing Dissatisfaction stat and a short-term Mood stat working together.

[legraf]

3 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Deal idea:  Proper Recognition.

I love this idea so much.  A few thoughts come to mind:

• Check out Troubles of Heroine's "Real Dragonborn" follower for ideas, it has obvious parallels.
• It would be so nice if Skyrim's Dialogue system wasn't so dangerous to touch.  It would be amazing if a gagged PC could speak through their follower, and have their words appropriately twisted.  But just glancing at the complexity of the Dialogue system, and knowing how many mods may be competing to modify Jarl-related dialogues especially, it frightens me.  One almost needs an entirely separate system for "gagged/speak through followers" using scripted scenes, but that's even more frightening.
  • Of course there was an old "speak through followers" mod for gag-speech, but it didn't actually do anything but permit ordinary dialogue when gagged.
• Having to use a different praise than the last time is an excellent complication (and by tracking just the last time, not TOO complicated), I love it.  I think "to a different Jarl" shouldn't be a requirement though.  Or perhaps "to a different Jarl" could fulfill the "not like last time" requirement?  I don't see the advantage in making the Dragonborn and the Dragonslayer (ha!) have to move holds every week, when instead the DF can be thoroughly impressing one Jarl.   And maybe they even do get some titles, honorary or not, which the PC then randomly uses when addressing the DF, or has to use occasionally?  A nice reminder of the effect of their deception.
• I would suggest some possible consequences to some of the dialogues.  None of these should be automatic, but should have some random chance to occur (coin flip?):
  • For your "got caught stealing" example, the Jarl might recommend the DF shackle your hands to be on the safe side, and insist you agree to it then and there.
  • Perhaps the "can't handle money" dialogue can be available without being in gold control, but the Jarl then very sensibly recommends the follower take care of your gold, and you enter gold control?  If already in gold control, perhaps the Jarl recommends lowering the maximum daily limit?
    • Ooh... perhaps the Jarl not-so-subtly requests a bribe, or the DF simply offers one ... using your gold/debt, of course.  A special "tax" for the common good.
• Other possible unlockable conversations, some with possible risks of further action:
  • If the PC was raped (regardless of whether the DF was), the PC admits the follower saved them from this terrible fate, and the Jarl recommends (and provides?) chastity devices?  I'm not really a fan, but some people like these.
  • If a bandit camp/forsworn encampment/other was cleared, it was the DF's idea, and perhaps they should be an officer of militia
  • If work was done on a Hearthfire home, the follower should be recognized as a civic leader and a pillar of the community.  Perhaps the PC is tasked with assisting the DF in carrying out further improvements?  (Not sure how this can work in terms of tracking - simply hand over x units of lumber, firewood, clay, mined stone, etc.?  Ideally, while the DF sandboxes in a tavern!)
  • If any quests were completed, the PC now confesses that of course the follower was the inspiration, the instigator, and the main mover in seeing it through.  The PC tried not to get in the way more than usual.  It may not be practical to intercept the quest reward and give it to the follower, alas, though perhaps the PC owes the DF something in lieue?
• It would be interesting if the follower could be the one designated Thane in response to some quests - functionally (for simplicity), it could continue exactly as now, with the PC being recognized as "Thane", but only when they are with the follower.  Without the follower, the Thane designation is removed, though there's no way to take back other rewards.  The guard dialogue for minor infractions still works fine - they are just acknowledging the Thane follower, not the Thane PC.

 

[Darkwing241]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Say you don't wear the outfit you promised to wear? What then? The follower punishes you with something else, like cash debt, or devices?

Is it immersive?

 

Yup, that's the big whammy there.

 

I personally don't care much about enforcement.  I kind of just do the things my character agrees to do.  I'm always going to be able to outsmart skyrim mechanics if I really try.  I think what's important is that the enforcement is interesting, not that it's effective.

 

So here's a take that might work.

 

I think the core of DF gameplay is the progression PC as Leader>Equal>PC as Follower>PC as Slave.  And I very much think the mod is at it's best towards the beginning and it's weakest towards the end.

 

What if somewhere in the middle there was a distinct handoff to the PC being a follower. 

 

stage 1: The player is the leader, pays the DF in gold (DF as we know it, maybe with high tier deals limited/disabled)

 

stage 2: The DF begins to assert him/herself taking control of holding money, but still technically providing a service to the PC (still really just DF as we know it)

 

stage 3:

-The PC is bankrupt, but the follower is doing great financially. 

-The DF makes note of the fact that she no longer needs the PC

-The DF "quits" but offers the PC employment as the DF's follower and is given a daily stipend/salary.

-The PC is assigned the "bankrupt" tag and can no longer sell items. (add skyrim lore-ish "banking guild" w/e)

-The DF offer's raises/bonuses for taking deals, assigns simple fetch and travel quests and gives other orders

 

We know longer have to play the money grubbing game, at this point trying to weasel money out of  merchants should be getting old for the player anyway.  The PC has regular income and the player gets to go back to playing all the parts of Skyrim.  Shopping, Looting, fighting ect. all still works. (just not selling).  The players only gold income is the follower (and picking up coins and quest rewards)

 

-Change the rules for how DF "lives" work.  Lives no longer restore on rest, but on completion of quests, playing games and on acceptance of deals.

 

An employer tries to keep their employee happy by giving them breaks, making sure they are rested and paid on time, and by keeping them safe.  An employee keeps their boss happy by doing as they are told, doing it well and in a timely fashion.  

 

-The PC can go along with the DF as long as she wants until her willpower collapses or she fails to keep the follower happy in either case she moves along to stage 4

 

stage 4: slavery

-basically stage 3 but without pay

-lots of bondage?

-sex scene hell?

-bad end?

 

There isn't really any need of an enforcement mechanic once you hit stage 3.  The player wants their salary and they have to work to get it.  Taking away a reward is just as effective as a punishment, particularly in a world where the PC is no longer allowed to sell items.

 

"Quitting" at stage 3 could be easily handled as well.  After a while the PC (with no income, shes still bankrupt) will likely seek a new job with a new employer.  All followers in the game are now "employers" and offer pay and a "contract" consisting of some number of deals.  It might even be fun to go job hunting looking for acceptable deals ("oh hey this DF only wants me to wear heels, a bikini and nipple piercings!").  A few lines of pre-canned dialogue and you are right back into it.

 

Is it possible to block selling but not buying?

How difficult is it to make the follower assign some really basic quests?

If not it would probably be possible to obtain a similar feel with just deal making and maybe something else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HexBolt8]

2 hours ago, legraf said:

I think "to a different Jarl" shouldn't be a requirement though.  Or perhaps "to a different Jarl" could fulfill the "not like last time" requirement?

My purpose was to drive the player to do things besides acquiring gold, a very light and flexible variation on the idea of having the DF tell you to go clear a certain dungeon.  The Proper Recognition deal compels you to do stuff (so the DF can take credit), but leaves what that is up to you.  Clearing an area (any area, your choice) will suffice to unlock the "saved my life" praise.  But you can't spend a week in town earning money through prostitution, alchemy, or whatever.  The DF wants you off your ass and accomplishing something.  If the deal doesn't motivate you toward a goal, it's just window dressing.  That's okay, many of the proposed deals are like that (wearing heels in town), but I was driving toward something a little more. 

 

In "immersion" terms, the deal should be inconvenient enough that you feel like the DF is bossing you around, without the complexity of a radiant system.  Each week you must (1) accomplish something (even if that's a notable failure), and (2) move around, at least to the next hold.  Even the failures mostly come from trying (tried to steal a pricey item, or got caught committing a serious crime) and are a consolation for making the attempt.

 

I had the "I'm a loser" line be always available so that you're guaranteed to have something to tell the jarl.  But you get punished if you use it twice in a row.  If praising the DF to another jarl removes the requirement to use a different praise each time, then one could just bounce between 2 jarls always using the easy guaranteed line.  That undermines making you accomplish something.

 

Likewise, the different jarl requirement keeps you moving, even if it's simply back and forth between two hold capitals, which really aren't that far apart.  My thought is that this isn't too disruptive to normal questing, but it can be inconvenient -- which a deal should be (if it doesn't chafe a little, you're not being controlled).  The DF is making you travel when you might not want to, highlighting who's in charge.  Like the "do something" requirement, where you go is up to you.

 

Unfortunately, things like getting raped don't seem like either an accomplishment or a noteworthy failure.  It might be a rare week in which it doesn't happen.  Now a combat defeat would be noteworthy (DF rescued me from a horrible fate!), but with several defeat mods I don't know how that could reliably be detected.

 

The interval between praises should be configurable, so the player can decide how onerous the deal should be.  Make it long enough and it's trivial to satisfy.  The need to see different jarls could also be toggleable (choice is good), though I personally think that undercuts the feeling that the DF is bossing you.

[cailic]

I was always wondering why the follower doesn't whore out the PC to random people on the road?  You have the merchant deal and the innkeeper deal.  It seems it would just as easy, after debt becomes so high, to whore her out to random NPC's.  I kinda figure this wouldn't be through a deal, just a natural progression leading up to getting sold, or  dumped down a hole.  If the follower fails to earn enough gold through whoring out the PC, then the next stage is selling the PC.  It would of course be a debt threshold.  For example, max debt is 2000, debt before enslavement is 8000.  Debt of 4000 to 7999 the PC gets whored out.

[Lupine00]

19 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

I'm an amateur, I don't know much about tagging things to get them interacting with other mods but they should match aesthetically, and they are NIoveride.  Not really sure what they would need to "support bikini armor" to be honest.

Awesome...

 

Presumably, you have TAWoBA? So you know what the bikini boots look like?

 

Remarkably non-sexy in almost every case. Quite disappointing. You would not want to be seen in them. They are fit only for bandit Riot Grrrls who want to clomp.

A replacer that overwrote the AAs for TAWoBA boots would be awesome.

Mine is the version with all the slots fixed so they are sane that some industrious person posted on the SLS forum, along with some keyword changes.

 

Bikini boots that are also heels would be just the thing.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, cailic said:

I was always wondering why the follower doesn't whore out the PC to random people on the road?

Harder to write than the whoring events that there are. And DF isn't really a fully fleshed out solicitation mod by any stretch.

That's actually a problem for it in many ways. A lot of things you want to do need good integration with solicitation, and there is no killer solicitation mod for Skyrim...

Except Maria Eden ... and that is ... probably ... incompatible with just about every other LL mod made.

 

Some people like RP, or AP, or TDF, or Sexworker's Life ... but none of them quite catch up to ME.

[Lupine00]

So many interesting posts. I can't really respond to all that.

I find some of it reminds me of my joke post about Sexist Skyrim (I think it might be on my blog) where every time the PC does something useful or important, a man shows up to take credit, and every time a good reward is given out, the man gets it.

 

The idea of praising the follower to people of importance (no need for just Jarls, I agree) would be not too much pain to implement, and could be used for various things - probably a way to trade your 'fatigue' up in return for benefits from the follower.

 

The discussion of experiences with the follower seems very close to the mod I worked on for a while that was about a specific follower who had some DF-like qualities, but was more romantically than financially fixated on the PC, but who nonetheless had the goal of totally enslaving the PC. I got sidetracked by SLD. It never happened.

 

I've also posted, at length, in the past, about starting as the DF's follower in a weak-girl game, and specifically supporting that mode.

 

The suggestion is ... different ... to what I was thinking, but also spells out some clear ideas. I'm not sure to what extent that are easy to fit into DF as implemented. The bankruptcy idea is really the key there.

 

Compare that to the idea I proposed for "legal slave" mode, where in towns where you are legally a slave, vendors and guards have new mechanics for interacting with you. It's not the same, but it's clearly got similarities.

 

I think the idea of bankruptcy as the "word" for that mechanic is not very immersive Skyrim, not even in silly sexist Skyrim. But if it were simply a different word ... let's say that the result is the follower becomes a Thane, and the PC is their housecarl, you can be demoted to servant and then slave.

 

I struggle with the idea that the populace won't take your gold in exchange for good due to reputation, because Skyrim is a simple cash economy, but I can imagine them not believing you are the "real" source of the gold and are just an errand-girl for the DF, who they see as the real source of money and power.

 

I'm not sure if this is the idea, but if we put different words around gold control, it's now the follower's gold, and they sometimes let you hold some to complete their errands for them.

 

A different mechanic is where the DF really does pay the PC - which is what I had in mind for PC as follower - but to make that work I imagined burdensome expenses for the PC, and very little pay. The PC has to ask for advances and starts to build up a debt and ... we know where that goes. In that sort of game you really need the DF; at low levels the DF is the only thing between you and being torn to bits by a single wolf while wandering down the road. As you build up strength and confidence, you need the DF less, but the DF may find ways to stop you gaining your independence.

 

You have to add a lot of mechanics to your game for the PC to need gold if they aren't paying a follower though...

SLS is full of them. Without SLS it would probably not work.

[Corsec]

I'm getting a problem that the mod seems to be running it's usual events, like for example the follower is reminding the PC to wear items etc. But the full dialogue isn't available for the follower, so I can't pay off the PCs deals. I can still get dialogue for assisting with device removal or buying new devices, just not the deals stuff ("About my deals?" I think is the line).

 

So what's the best way to get the deal dialogues to show up again without having to reload an earlier save? I had this problem before but the dialogue showed up again after waiting a short while, but that's not happening now.

[Lupine00]

39 minutes ago, Corsec said:

I'm getting a problem that the mod seems to be running it's usual events, like for example the follower is reminding the PC to wear items etc. But the full dialogue isn't available for the follower, so I can't pay off the PCs deals. I can still get dialogue for assisting with device removal or buying new devices, just not the deals stuff ("About my deals?" I think is the line).

Sounds like you are stuck in a scene, or something like that. If you have SL Adventures it has a button to reset scenes that sometimes helps. You can also try to reset things in DF debug. Also try producing a dhlp-Resume event with something, like SL Adventures.

 

DF should have more buttons to do these kind of things. Maybe one day  

[Darkwing241]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Awesome...

 

Presumably, you have TAWoBA? So you know what the bikini boots look like?

 

Remarkably non-sexy in almost every case. Quite disappointing. You would not want to be seen in them. They are fit only for bandit Riot Grrrls who want to clomp.

A replacer that overwrote the AAs for TAWoBA boots would be awesome.

Mine is the version with all the slots fixed so they are sane that some industrious person posted on the SLS forum, along with some keyword changes.

 

Bikini boots that are also heels would be just the thing.

I've looked at TAWoBA, I'm well aware of how lame the boots are.  Most custom armor mods have really lame boots/gloves/headwear.  I was relying on Kendo 2's boots for a long time but they have a lot of issues (incomplete, not uunp, no longer supported by author ect.)

 

I personally use "The book of UUNP" it provides a good mix of normal armors/sexy armors

 

I can make a replacer for TAWoBA, it shouldn't be too much work and it has open permissions. Can you send me a link to that specific version? just to make sure I Find the right thing. 

 

I assume it's this UUNP one linked from the front page of SLS?

 

 

No promises on a time frame, I'm often busy IRL, but I should have some time to work on it around Christmas.  If you want to give it a try you can always use the craftable stand-alone version.

[legraf]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I struggle with the idea that the populace won't take your gold in exchange for good due to reputation, because Skyrim is a simple cash economy, but I can imagine them not believing you are the "real" source of the gold and are just an errand-girl for the DF, who they see as the real source of money and power.

I don't think there needs to be a problem with merchants accepting the player's gold for items - that can continue as usual.  The important thing to cutting off player income outside the DF is that the player can't sell items.  And that's very easy to rationalize, if not to implement:

 

"Right, that's 700 gold for the lot.  Hmm?  No, I'll just hold on to that until your Master comes by to collect - he/she has told everyone about your tendency to "lose" (mimes drinking skooma) any coins you handle.  Here's an IOU, be sure to give it to your Master right away, understand?"

 

Then the player can hand over these notes to improve favor, perhaps, but they still have no gold unless the follower gives it to them.  They would still have the possibility of picking up gold from loose septims and coin purses (or pickpocketing!), but that isn't likely to have much impact.  Plus the follower can still confiscate it at cell change perhaps - though in this scenario I'd suggest removing that, and instead have the follower just occasionally check the PCs "pockets", and punish them for having more gold than they were permitted.

[cailic]

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Harder to write than the whoring events that there are. And DF isn't really a fully fleshed out solicitation mod by any stretch.

That's actually a problem for it in many ways. A lot of things you want to do need good integration with solicitation, and there is no killer solicitation mod for Skyrim...

Except Maria Eden ... and that is ... probably ... incompatible with just about every other LL mod made.

 

Some people like RP, or AP, or TDF, or Sexworker's Life ... but none of them quite catch up to ME.

So sad.

[SkyAddiction]

15 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I think the idea of bankruptcy as the "word" for that mechanic is not very immersive Skyrim, not even in silly sexist Skyrim. But if it were simply a different word ... let's say that the result is the follower becomes a Thane, and the PC is their housecarl, you can be demoted to servant and then slave.

 

I struggle with the idea that the populace won't take your gold in exchange for good due to reputation, because Skyrim is a simple cash economy, but I can imagine them not believing you are the "real" source of the gold and are just an errand-girl for the DF, who they see as the real source of money and power.

 

I'm not sure if this is the idea, but if we put different words around gold control, it's now the follower's gold, and they sometimes let you hold some to complete their errands for them.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about Thaneship and Housecarls. They're titles with few benefits, even in mods, and there are plenty of in-game examples where characters of lower rank are locked in a power struggle with higher ranked characters.

 

You could tie it to willpower and low-level deals, where completely tanking willpower multiple times in a specified period while holding x number of deals means a clear change in the power dynamic. The DF isn't the one suffering disaster after disaster - it's the PC - so why not just forcibly take control to the extent the PC will allow at the time? That gives a quest which sends the DF to a specified NPC where they formalize a contract between the PC as the employee and the DF as the employer.

 

NPC: "Can I help you?"

DF: "Yes, this weak companion of mine can barely carry her own weight. She hired me, promised me a salary, and then proceeded to fail her way into my debt!"

NPC: "What do you expect me to do about it?"

DF: "You draft legal contracts accepted in all the holds of Skyrim, correct? I want you to draft one for me which puts her in my employ instead."

NPC: "Very well... Here you are. You are now entitled to the proceeds of whatever goods and services the two of you provide, and you will owe her an allowance until her debt is paid."

DF: "Oh, you added the contract fee to her debt? How thoughtful of you. Thank you for your services."

 

Then you could use gold control to take all the PC's money above a certain amount, which constitutes a combined allowance and salary of sorts. If you want to buy something which costs more than what you can afford, you'd better do it in the vendor menu when selling, or ask the DF for x amount of cash. Money taken from the PC improves standing with the DF to the point where you can eventually cancel the contract, and money asked for or the failure to produce enough over the course of a few days reduces that standing. That way you don't have to worry about buying/selling at all. So long as the player can balance the necessary ratio of money in and out for the DF, they can also balance the mod for their own modded economy.

 

Remember our discussions about our respective follower mods? This is the basic model I was using for the player-follower economy, except there wasn't a battle of wills with the follower over cash. I think the cash would have to be front and center for DFC though, because it's the heart of the mod.

 

Slavery can use the same system, where repeatedly crashing willpower while under contract just leads to the DF collaring, binding, and gagging the PC, dragging her to the contract NPC, and having a slave contract drafted.

 

NPC: "Can I help you?"

DF: "Yes! This rebellious, worthless little tramp still can't pay what she owes! In fact, she tried to run off and I had to gag her and clap some irons on her just to drag her here to state my case!"

NPC: "What do you want me to do?"

DF: "See this contract? You drafted this for me a little while ago. I'd like it updated to state she has to do whatever I think necessary to fulfill her obligations as well as forfeit her allowance."

NPC: "Very well. Should I add the drafting fee to her debt?"

DF: "Yes, thank you."

 

If you use the same buy/sell mechanic without the allowance, you get the slave effect without having to worry about adding anything beyond whatever you think is fitting (events, games, devices, deals, etc.) for the role of a slave. The "bad end" option can be the same as before, where the DF just takes all your stuff and walks away.

 

One thing I don't think needs to be addressed in any significant way here is sex. DF was never explicitly about sex, but more about power and humiliation with sexual aspects. Outside of the few, relatively rare games in DF, sex in slavery can be initiated by the players themselves. There are so many mods available which offer some aspect of sex for money that it wouldn't matter if DFC offered the same content. As long as DFC doesn't get in the way of prostitution mods and their like, players who have them will probably use them to help get out from under contract or slavery anyway.

 

I think this might also preserve the essential feel of the mod, where the battle of wills and funds allow the PC to move up and down the power scale relative to the DF.

 

I agree with others who think the back-end (high level deals and slavery) areas are the least fleshed out part of the mod, and that often doesn't leave much of an incentive or present enough of a threat to really force the player to deal with the consequences of the mod as anything other than some fun dynamic play and a cash sink, unless the modded economy is fine-tuned and crippling.

[Lupine00]

18 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

 

I assume it's this UUNP one linked from the front page of SLS?

Ah... No. I believe further updates were posted, and then I still had to fix some things myself.

I'm not sure if a "complete" ESP is available anywhere, or whether the front page one was updated. (It might have updates).

I'll investigate further.

[Lupine00]

15 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

his might sound pretty drastic but

seeing how many (minor) bugs and flaws there are and how... "hardcoded" this mod is (Cant find a more fitting word for what I mean here) 

also how the general persception of this mod changed through the last couple of months

I wonder if such making the mod from scratch might be less work in the end than fixing the current one

The idea of completely rewriting DF, or making some new mod that is substantially based off DF ideas is tempting of course.

 

There are downsides though. That's why I'm not doing it. I might make something new in the future, informed by more evolved ideas, but for now:

• DF does a fair job for a lot of people.
• DF is hard to extend, but there are things that can be added without too much pain, and many things that can't ... just have to go with what's practical.
• DF has a lot in it. It would not be quickly replaced, even with a lot of foreknowledge.

 

So I think it's better not to rush off on a new project when DF can be fixed here and there, refreshed in various ways, extended in others, and still be a useful mod that is fun for a lot of people.

 

Sure, some people who've been playing it since day one are a bit jaded with it, me included, but a new mod isn't going to fix all of that either.

 

I also have SLD and SLAX to worry about, and I want to do a bit to DF to leave it in a reasonable state while I do some work on SLD, and then SLAX.

I think some things I want in SLAX will feed back nicely into DF.

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, SkyAddiction said:

NPC: "Can I help you?"

DF: "Yes, this weak companion of mine can barely carry her own weight. She hired me, promised me a salary, and then proceeded to fail her way into my debt!"

NPC: "What do you expect me to do about it?"

DF: "You draft legal contracts accepted in all the holds of Skyrim, correct? I want you to draft one for me which puts her in my employ instead."

NPC: "Very well... Here you are. You are now entitled to the proceeds of whatever goods and services the two of you provide, and you will owe her an allowance until her debt is paid."

DF: "Oh, you added the contract fee to her debt? How thoughtful of you. Thank you for your services."

Haha. That's very good.

 

I think though that the core to any scenario where the PC becomes the DF's lackey is consent.

The PC loses her freedoms through consent, consents to those troublesome deals and consents to play some of the follower's games by the unfair rules.

 

The PC should want to consent to an agreement to serve the follower. It's not a contract, or a piece of paper that keeps the PC in line, it's the decision that they made to serve.

[user9120975435]

Can I make a request for a mechanic to register with the mod a devious follower, so even if they're unnamed or clone of a named character, they can be found or even teleported to player after they were dismissed?

 

For example, I'm using a female hunter that I stumbled into along the way for a DF and am about to start the Thief quest mod again, which requires the player to dismiss followers, but I would like an easy way to find and rehire her when I need to later on.

[Lupine00]

I think one thing that's missing right now is a natural cycle of pressure and relief.

It becomes boring when the DF just puts more and more pressure, and even more boring when they don't really put any.

 

I want to add some cyclic mechanic that progressively ramps up pressure on the PC, and then when it starts to bite, slackens off and makes things easier.

But over time, the pressure could get more and more severe.

 

Then once you fall into enslavement and get out, it should reset.

 

 

It might make sense to link this to city visits (which are usually to sell), with each visit cranking up the pressure until you have to take some number of deals, then it backs off.

With each cycle you need one extra deal to get the follower to start to ease off for a bit.

 

 

I'm coming around to a more nuanced idea of how deals might work.

 

Accept deal = get money immediately.

Once the deal hits its pay off duration, it starts to add discount percentage. You have to keep deals past basic duration to get a discount.

Discount caps at a limit based on number of deals you have.

If you pay off a deal, the discount continues for the pay off duration, even though the deal is gone.

If you get the deal back during that time, you keep the discount.

 

You can ask for a particular deal, but you don't get any cash payment, just the discount. Time limits apply normally as above.

 

Each day you have the follower, cost per day increases by an increment. This resets if you take enough deals at once. But each time requires one more deal.

After each reset the increment itself increases.

 

After leaving enslavement, the increment and deals required are reset.

If you're sold to another follower, the increment and deals required are reset.

If you drink the potion, the increment and deals required are reset.

If you drink the potion you always get one deal worth of discount.

[Lupine00]

29 minutes ago, user9120975435 said:

For example, I'm using a female hunter that I stumbled into along the way for a DF and am about to start the Thief quest mod again, which requires the player to dismiss followers, but I would like an easy way to find and rehire her when I need to later on.

I'd just install Get Over Here.

 

Then when you want to do a quest that interferes with followers ...

Remember follower in GOH.

Pause DF.

Dismiss follower.

Do quest.

Port follower to you with GOH.

Reacquire follower.

Unpause DF.

 

Should seem like nothing much happened.

If you do lose your debt, just hit the add debt button  

 

 

But if the follower is a non-unique, I guess that might not work.

That would need a special feature.

 

I'll add it to my list. It's really easy so it might get done before TES6 comes out.

[SkyAddiction]

37 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Haha. That's very good.

 

I think though that the core to any scenario where the PC becomes the DF's lackey is consent.

The PC loses her freedoms through consent, consents to those troublesome deals and consents to play some of the follower's games by the unfair rules.

 

The PC should want to consent to an agreement to serve the follower. It's not a contract, or a piece of paper that keeps the PC in line, it's the decision that they made to serve.

 

Fair point, though quite a bit of the dialogue moves from equitable relationship (I hope you don't try to cheat me like the others) to anger (If you don't want to do that again, you should pay me!) to open contempt (Hey, slave!). There is a control element to it which I think handles the "you done fucked up" consequences aspect of the mod quite well.

 

The idea is more about staging the mod and making downward progression more transparent than how the contract dialogue would be worded. For example, it's easy enough to turn the contracts into deals themselves which become gateways for other deals:

 

DF: "Hey, idiot. Since you can't pay me because you fight like you have a kettle over your head, How about another deal?"

PC: "What is it?"

DF: "You agree to give me all of the profits from our adventures except for a small allowance until we're squared up. Deal?"

PC: "Okay, fine."

DF: "Great! I'm sure you'll have it paid back in no time!"

 

DF: "Okay you sword-carrying tart, you're a hopeless failure as a companion and I want my money! I'll give you another chance to fix this before I leave you gift-wrapped on the side of the road. How about another deal?"

PC: "What is it?"

DF: "You agree to become my little slave and do whatever I tell you to until you're paid up. Deal?"

PC: "I... fine. Deal."

DF: "Excellent! You may not have fun, but I certainly will. It's also no less than you deserve."

 

Or something like that.