Why does everything about Skyrim modding need to be so hard? (and please don't just say Bethesda)

[Just Checking]

I was going to have a pointlessly longer post involving needless anecdotes but for everyone's sake I'll not do that.  My opinion is noobs do need to learn to use the resources at their disposal (a gentle nudge doesn't hurt if they don't know what they're looking for) just like we all did when we were new, but there's nothing wrong with holding out for eventual improvements that will almost surely one day exist.  At the moment it's mostly just wistful dreams, sadly, so the best thing to make the process easier for new users, or just those looking for help, is to direct them to the best, most comprehensive guide you can find and just hope they actually follow it.  If they're like I was, they will absolutely not, but that's just how people can be.  Also if you have an answer and aren't totally dead inside and hate humanity because of how often you've been asked a question, maybe take one for the team and answer yourself, save the others a headache.   As for actual improvements, unless you yourself have an idea of how to make the process easier and the knowledge of how to implement that idea, it's as good as it's going to get for now.

[karlpaws]

28 minutes ago, Seijin8 said:

On the other hand, maybe there are savant coders who "just do it" and produce something useful.

This is what I think, though that might be more of a fiction than anything else.

 

There do seem to be people that "just get" intellectual things either by natural inclination (very left brain or right brain, whichever) that can just intuit an answer and have to be told in high school usually to show their work.

 

I think it is less that they are savant and more that they've understood the topic enough to internalize it that they've forgotten the intermediate steps and have trouble recalling them in order to teach. The same way we feel things in our gut is more a learned reaction to stereotypes that our mind has collected information about and formed an idea without working through the rational logic that would probably get to the same reaction (at least some times or we'd never trust our guts) but much slower.

 

This though does lead back to the "why isn't this easier" problem. Some people might not fully understand how the game works but are able to create despite that lack of documentation from Bethesda. In that case the lack of understanding isn't a fault of the creator but will hamper the ability to explain and help a more novice mod user.  I also wonder just how many utility mods we have re-creating undocumented features of the Skyrim engine.  Hopefully very few.

[woodsman30]

6 hours ago, Psalam said:

Recently I've come to truly appreciate just how troublesome Skyrim mods are

Yes but the game is old and we are doing things that was never intended to be done with this game even when it was new. I myself spent a lot of time learning before I even tried to mod the game and I mean weeks. I do feel your pain dependencies can kill your game for shit you really do not even want. But, as you are fully aware and as most who read this thread know with some time and understanding Skyrim can become a game unlike any other even by today's standards. What mod authors made is incredible and the utilities and tools are off the charts with what you really can do with some understanding.

BUT, here is the real problem there are tens of thousands of mods of any and all types picking what to play is the hard part...... The struggle is real ?

[GenioMaestro]

Modifying Skyrim is as complex as you want because you put the limit.

It can be very simple if you put mods without dependencies and without collisions.

But that doesn't give us the Skyrim we want.

 

The complexity of modifying Skyrim comes from the gigantic amount of things we can do.

And logically, we want to do them.

If you want to put animations you will have to learn to handle FNIS.
If you want to change the body you will have to learn to handle BodySlyde.
If you want that mod you will have to follow the dependency cascade.

 

And the only way to do it is to learn to do it. There is no other way.
The guides can not be easier, the instructions for use can not be easier. The tools are very simple when you know how to use them. But you have to learn.

 

Magic only exists within the game. Outside it's just you and the computer. Your experience, your knowledge and your ability is what determines whether it is easy or difficult.
If you have never installed Requiem you may need days or weeks to make it work properly. But if you have installed it several times you will have no problem.

 

In addition, each person has their own limit. Not everyone can drive a Skyrim with 1500 mods. Having 200 or 300 is already complicated. At some point Skyrim's Modding will surely overtake you.

 

------------------------

 

Mod packages are not the solution. They only work as a closed system on a pure vanilla game.
You cannot put them on your modified Skyrim and you cannot use them as a modification base.
It is not easy to maintain and update a 40gb package and it is almost impossible to make it compatible with other modifications.

 

The lists or collections of mods are not the solution either. You just have to look at Step's website. The instructions are gigantic and half of the mods have "detailed instructions".
We really have a list on each page of each mod.

 

An automatic system to download what we don't have can work. Because if we don't have it, we can add it whenever we want without problems. Add mods is never a problem.

 

What cannot be done is update automatically. Usually the mods are compatible forwards but sometimes they have specific instructions for updating.
Some must be stopped at the MCM. Others must be completely uninstalled while others can be overwritten. Sometimes they add compatibility with other mods and we may need special patches of compatibility. Updating is not so easy.

[Nymra]

Well, the problem is, that there is nobody who tries to enfore some kind of standard, tries to keep the strings together to form a net or offer a framework concept that people can work towards and just implement their stuff.

 

There are just so many mods that do the same thing equally as bad but in a different way. That is just wasting each modders lifetime, just because he has the best idea on how to do it.

Also, most mods are just totally incompatible with each other and have zero options to change that.

 

Why is there no framework that handles player debuffs which people can use like Sexlab but just for adding debuffs? A framework that handles and caps debuffs like Sexlab Disparity but for all mods out there from Apropos to FillHerUp to Barefoot Realism (which is not covered by SL Disparity for example, as are the combat wound mods...)

 

The framework could provide basic "values" of abuse like "MOBILITY, HEALTH, STAMINA" 

So Apropos2 could just tell that framework that "mobility and stamina" abuse is now higher and the framework then increases the value and the debuffs connected with it

I think currently in my Modlist the following mods change movement rate:

1. Apropos2
2. Barefoot Realism

3. FillherUp

4. Devious Devices

5. Dragonborn in Distress

6. SM Player Essential

7. In Theory Wildcat (but I disabled wounds) 

8. Player Jump&Run speed tool (a framework could allow to modify the base values as well)

 

I bet I forgot 2 or 3... 
In the end I have like a dozen different debuffs at the same time which sometimes even nullify each other.... (and give me 100% movement even when I should have only 10%).

Stuff like that just misses, because there is no... network of modders who try to provide it or give standards to work with.
Would make the creation of mods easier and also the use of mods. 

 

Because 75% of the work that I have as a mod user is making mods compatible with each other, finding and tracking incompatibilities and try to fix them (or make the hard decision on which mod to drop...)

 

At the same time we have 2 major frameworks that handle kinky devices ... 

A Framework for BDSM that nobody uses, a Sexlab Framework that could use some update for LE and the complete absence of a true BDSM framework that could work like Sexlab but for Torture Scenes. 

 

I mean modders invest ALOT of work into making Scenes that show torture, stripping, abuse, degredation and other stuff while all of that could be covered by a respective scenes framework.

 

TL:DR: Skyrim could need a modders council that tries to promote certain standards, creates frameworks together for all modders to use and maybe create the mod packs new users need by getting all the modders into one boat. 

 

 

 

[27X]

1 hour ago, Nymra said:

TL:DR: Skyrim could need a modders council that tries to promote certain standards, creates frameworks together for all modders to use and maybe create the mod packs new users need by getting all the modders into one boat. 

 

 

 

Lol, no. Reddit already did that and it's just a clusterfuck of ego massaging, nevermind people who don't do anything without being paid anymore.

[Nymra]

5 hours ago, 27X said:

 

 

Lol, no. Reddit already did that and it's just a clusterfuck of ego massaging, nevermind people who don't do anything without being paid anymore.

that is stuff I dont know. 
My post is also just daydreaming on the topic. I dont think anything like I mentioned can or ever will be done. beause humans

I would not even mind paying/supporting something like that. 

[GenioMaestro]

8 hours ago, Nymra said:

Well, the problem is, that there is nobody who tries to enfore some kind of standard, tries to keep the strings together to form a net or offer a framework concept that people can work towards and just implement their stuff.

The problem, as i say, is on OUR side. Sometimes because we not know HOW make the things and others times because we want imposible things.

 

The problem is not in the frameworks. We have some sexual frameworks as SexLab, OSEX and Dogma. Some bondage frameworks as DD and ZAZ. Some frameworks for solve others problems as SLIF and CANS.

 

What frameworks use the developer is their decision, some use one and some use the other. That force us to have all of them installed in our game and, of course, that increase the complexity of the modding process. Because is imposible develop a mod that can works with all the frameworks at the same time.

The diversity increase the complexity and we must acept it for have the game that we have.

Sometimes we are forced to install a mod or a framework for play a mod. If we want see OSEX we must install OSA. If we want play Thief we must install Dogma. If we want play PAHE we must install SexLab.

 

But others times the decision is OURS and only OURS.

 

We can not have all the climatology mods at the same time... or all the Overhauls... Or all the LoverLab mods...

If you not know that.. learn it... Reading documentation or having problems in your game...

You can install 1000 mods if they make diferent things and not have collisions.

But you can 10 have mods and have a lot of problems caused by the collisions plus you fault of knowneledge.

 

Because the BIG PROBLEM is the combination of mods.

If we install a group of mods that make similar things we are searching problems.

We can not request a perfect compatibility of all mods with all mods. That is imposible.

A developer can not make compatibility patch with every mod that collide with their mod.

Can make some and solve the most common problem caused by the mods used by hundreds of peoples.

Other times not make the compatibility patch and alert of the incompatibility in the web page.

But the list of mod is gigantic and we can not have a complete list of incompatiblities and problems. For that we have the forums.

 

 

The number of problems that we can have is infinite. As more mods you install more problems, more collisions and more incompatibility. And the problems are not caused by the mods. Each mod works perfect alone. The problems are caused by the combination of mods.

 

The problem is on OUR SIDE because we install hundreds and hundreds of mods.

If you not want problems reduce your mods list.

If you want have that mod list you must learn how to solve the problems caused by your specific combinations of mods.

If that mod list give you problems i not know WHY you have that mod list.

 

Select carrefull what mods you want play and forget the idea of you can play ALL the mods at the same time. A lot of them make similar things and, of course, cause incompatibility, colisions and problems.

[Nymra]

20 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

 

I disagree, not completly, but the core thing that it is "our problem", I disagree with.

 

It is the same with gaming companies. The games market is abysmal because companies suck at making games. They try to copycat stuff or make new concepts or try to reinvent the wheel instead of making solid concepts that are thought through, offer much for different types of users and just plane work on release.

 

With mods its the same. Every modder has its idea on how to solve EVERYTHING. and so we have alot of mods that do alot and the same thing also.

 

It should be perfectly possible to create a devices framework that offers both DD users and ZAZ users options and functionality. Like for example I can disable the DD locking function for my game when I want and just use the DDs cosmetically. But no, it does not work. Now ZAZ cannot even detect DD gags anymore for playing gag sounds, wtf.

 

At the same time, one mod author reduces the possibilities because he sets boundaries for his framework (bestiality for example). That way the framework is very focussed on one thing and offers little for other users. 

Why not create a framework where you can just toggle creatures. Well... 

I understand modders create stuff they love, because it is their free time and motivation. But as a user, on nexus and on loverslab, I also feel as useless, ignored and frowned upon as in the big forums of game developers when providing constructive feedback and suggestions. 

We are the ones who have to make the mods work, we provide feedback, we playtest, we spread the word. 
 

I would really consider patreon if I found something I can get 100% behind. But whenever I feel close, I get repulsed by "I cant make that" "I wont make that" "I dont make that anymore" comments. So I am back at square 1. 

I dont want to say the modders have no right to do that. They have and I respect that. But at the same time I really feel like crying because of the missed opportunities and possibilities...

 

Thousands of hours of work lie in Loverslab mods and all that would be needed here and there is someone who just finishes what is already there and allow us to integrate (looking at you, Slaves of Tamriel, Wolf Club etc.) 

 

 

 

[Grey Cloud]

18 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

The problem is on OUR SIDE because we install hundreds and hundreds of mods.

I have hundreds of books on scores of different subjects. If I can read one I can read them all without any need to constantly learn anything about how this or that particular book presents the information or without any further tools.

[Seijin8]

Nymra... I disagree with essentially everything you just wrote.

1 hour ago, Nymra said:

but the core thing that it is "our problem", I disagree with.

Group A creates things, group B has trouble making the things work.  Group A does not have a problem.  The "problem" lies solely with group B.

1 hour ago, Nymra said:

It is the same with gaming companies. The games market is abysmal because companies suck at making games.

If this is true (and it demonstrably isn't), then who is making "good games"?  Not-game-companies?  Is nobody making good games?  You would have to play a hell of a lot of games every week to express that opinion with any credibility.

1 hour ago, Nymra said:

With mods its the same. Every modder has its idea on how to solve EVERYTHING.

Those damned modders and their damn ideas...

 

Its almost like those modders have five mods in their load orders that only do one thing that they want, so they decide to integrate those things to lighten the load.

 

The nerve!

1 hour ago, Nymra said:

It should be perfectly possible to create a devices framework that offers both DD users and ZAZ users options and functionality.

Suffice to say, some problems require you to make an A or B choice, and doing both at once isn't useful or functional.  One group does A, the other does B.  Both choices make sense for their intended goals, but they don't integrate well afterward.  That's life.

1 hour ago, Nymra said:

At the same time, one mod author reduces the possibilities because he sets boundaries for his framework

Because they shouldn't need to invest hundreds of hours of their time in things that don't interest them.

 

You are acting like mod authors are negligent companies that supply deficient products...

1 hour ago, Nymra said:

I would really consider patreon if I found something I can get 100% behind.

... Products you are apparently unwilling to pay for, yet still feel the need to criticize.

1 hour ago, Nymra said:

But at the same time I really feel like crying because of the missed opportunities and possibilities...

There are exactly TWO possible solutions to this problem:

1) Pay a skilled modder to make everything sing for you.  For someone expressing all the qualities and skills you need, $100/hr should cover it, and they will likely need a few weeks of full-time work to make it all perfect to your specifications.

2) Learn to mod.

 

If you don't have a few thousand dollars to spend on hiring a modder, then #2 is really your only option.  Thankfully most of the programs you will need are free and have tutorials that can detail exactly what you need.  It will take time, but Bethesda's games are all quite similar, so whatever effort you spend learning one will translate to the next.

 

Because returning to:

1 hour ago, Nymra said:

but the core thing that it is "our problem", I disagree with.

It absolutely IS YOUR PROBLEM.  Nobody else's, and nobody else is obligated to fix it for you.  The tools are available, the training is available, it costs nothing but time and nobody is stopping you from doing it.

[Nymra]

1 hour ago, Seijin8 said:

 

Hmm, I think you missed my point completly. 
 

I just wanted to express that with a little more planning/cooperation/community wide standards alot of modders could save themselves a damn lot of time because instead of inventing the wheel over and over again they all could draw from the same resources to achieve their modding goals.

 

That way they could maybe focus more on the quests, content, looks etc. of their mods instead of complex functionalities, that, as I said, often already exist. 

 

Supporting on Patreon is not paying. I am creating free stuff myself, just not for Skyrim and I dont mind not beeing paid for that. 

But I mind feedback, it is worth gold for me since I can build on that, get new ideas, fix my stuff (I m writing rule systems for tabletop and roleplaying games)

Patreon support would just allow me to direct more time to my projects from my everyday work. 

 

And I honestly dont know why there is no kickstarter yet to fund making a framework or sth
Just kidding. Maybe the range of LL mods is just too small because the barrier to start using mods is so high. But wait, that is exactly the topic here no? 

 

I mean on the other hand:
Imagine you could download a LL-modpack that is virtually a big FOMOD that does everything for you. And if you can, say, multiply the users of LL mods by 10 that way. Imagine that would not maybe lead to an increase in patreons for modders also? 

Or even would make people pay for that mod pack with the money then distributed to the mod authors? 

 

[Seijin8]

1 hour ago, Nymra said:

I just wanted to express that with a little more planning/cooperation/community wide standards alot of modders could save themselves a damn lot of time because instead of inventing the wheel over and over again they all could draw from the same resources to achieve their modding goals.

That is a fair thing to wish for, and there are many such systems already.  But no one system -- no matter how well-developed -- can anticipate the needs of the community years from now, nor the technical breakthroughs that may render the framework obsolete.

 

The notion of "if they could just get together and do it right one time" is fantasy.

 

You continue to approach this as a project management issue, where the project is headed by people with no expertise to lend, and requires the efforts of many people who have no incentive to participate.

 

Modding is a hobby, not a job.  Most of the great mods and frameworks were headed by a single, talented individual.  Very very few team modding projects have gone anywhere.  Most die unfinished.

 

If you put all your modders into one group to "do the thing", and they disagree on the best way to accomplish it, what then?  If they leave the project half-finished, what then?  Fact is the sporadic fits-and-starts process the modding community engages in is probably the best way it can be done.  If you could get a group together and pay them, maybe something could come of it.  Maybe.  But the amount of money it would take to attract that talent is far more than any Patreon is going to cough up.

[tweetbotter]

1 hour ago, Seijin8 said:

Modding is a hobby, not a job.  Most of the great mods and frameworks were headed by a single, talented individual. 

This is seriously the one thing that a lot of people tend to forget. Not only is it often just one person, but more importantly it is one person who created it for their *own* personal use, and are generous enough to share it with others.

 

I am amazed and gratified that some modders are willing to expand/add/ change features based on user requests, especially if it is a direction they are not personally interested in. But I certainly don't expect them to put in the tedious extra work just to deal with every single personal quirk someone might demand, or constantly maintain compatibility with some third party mod they have no interest in using themselves, not to mention ten or twenty other mods. 

Although that also opens up the benefit of open permissions-allowing other modders to do so is great. 

 

 

[Nymra]

2 hours ago, twitterbutter said:

This is seriously the one thing that a lot of people tend to forget. Not only is it often just one person, but more importantly it is one person who created it for their *own* personal use, and are generous enough to share it with others.

 

I am amazed and gratified that some modders are willing to expand/add/ change features based on user requests, especially if it is a direction they are not personally interested in. But I certainly don't expect them to put in the tedious extra work just to deal with every single personal quirk someone might demand, or constantly maintain compatibility with some third party mod they have no interest in using themselves, not to mention ten or twenty other mods. 

Although that also opens up the benefit of open permissions-allowing other modders to do so is great. 

 

 

 

That depends on what your goal is as a modder. 
As I said, I dont mod but I also use my freetime to provide a product. And I want the users to like it because it drives me. It is not correct that you as a modder do not get something in return for releasing it, even when its not many.

I also do not want to be ungrateful or overly critical. 

I appreciate the work that is done on LL and honestly, Skyrim mods virtually changed my life a good bit. 

 

But I also (often) think that some things towards more compatibility/common standards would be quite easy to do, but nobody steps up.

I m running projects, I can make concepts, plans, create ideas for compatibility and such, but I cannot provide coding myself. But since I cant do that, nobody will listen to me, because I m not one of them. That is just my experience from the 3 years here. 
Sadly, that is all I can do at the moment, since starting to mod... I even lack the basis for that. 
But threads like that always point me in that same direction:
- START TO MOD YOURSELF

 

I would love to but the first thing I would try to do is fixing mods that are already there. For example create a big slavery ring mod based on Simple Slavery, just to provide some form of punishment for a period of time for PCs until they can escape, are bought free or the owner just gets bored. 

But then on the other hand, that is maybe not even possible because no source code or no permission or what not. I dont even know

[Holzfrau]

2 hours ago, Nymra said:

But I also (often) think that some things towards more compatibility/common standards would be quite easy to do, but nobody steps up.

Could you expand on how you think this should work?  It doesn't sound easy to me.  Who would determine the common standards?  How would that person (or persons) be chosen?

 

If you just mean somebody making their own framework, how do you expect to convince other modders to adopt it?

[Nymra]

18 minutes ago, Holzfrau said:

Could you expand on how you think this should work?  It doesn't sound easy to me.  Who would determine the common standards?  How would that person (or persons) be chosen?

How did it work with Sexlab? Or Devious Devices? It just kinda grew itself I think. And others mentioned correctly: most of that was driven by the talented Mod Creator himself or by people who picked up the work. 
And when something is very active, it draws people who build up on that. 

From what I see, we already have some mods that form a bigger framework.

 

Sexlab provides scenes and its framework allows to add more animations, triggers etc.

Arousal creates a hidden stat that is used by alot of mods

 

But then it ends.

Simple Slavery provides a framework for alot of mods to tie into. But most of those mods dont work or are abandonned. 

Many new mods do not get included and none of those mods get created with simple slavery in mind. So a great opportunity for a framework is missed for example.

 

Many mods try to handle sexual abuse and trauma, but there is no mod like SL aroused that is the core of it all (Apropos2 maybe comes close)

 

There is also no mod that handles psychic trauma and addiction like Arousal does. There are just many mods who try to. 

 

And for example (that is my favourite) there is no mod that allows the implementation of Torture/BDSM Scenes thate are not only centered on sex.

Just see Cobalt Animations. They run with Sexlab which is very sad. They have unsuitable sounds, leave no marks. The whole framework of Sexlab is unsuitable for such things.

At the same time modders invest alot of time to recreate torture scenes which is alot of work I believe.

Also we have the ugly and immersion breaking and often not correctly working whipping via basic and power attacks instead of a framework that allows the implementation of whipping scenes.

 

I made a lenghty thread about that, but people just basically ignored it or said it is not necessary. 

 

 

My hope was that someone would pick up on that. Sexlab is nice, but with such a framework and all the talented animators, BDSM mods could get to a whole new level.

 

 

[Holzfrau]

10 minutes ago, Nymra said:

How did it work with Sexlab? Or Devious Devices? It just kinda grew itself I think. And others mentioned correctly: most of that was driven by the talented Mod Creator himself or by people who picked up the work. 
And when something is very active, it draws people who build up on that. 

I don't know the history of SL or DD real well, but it's my understanding that the frameworks came first, and then people made mods using them.  What you want to do is a little different - retrofit a set of standards onto existing mods, which causes a few problems:

1. Mod authors who want to use the new framework will have to rewrite the parts of their mod that will use it.  This may be a large enough task that some modders just won't do it.
2. Mod authors may be reluctant to tie their work to a new, unproven framework.  Will they be screwed if the framework's author stops maintaining it?
3. It becomes yet another requirement users need.  Remember, this thread was started with a complaint about complicated requirements.

I think the stuff you're asking for would make a lot of sense if mod authors were all employees of the same company.  Things are a lot messier when you're dealing with a community of individual volunteers instead.

 

(I do agree with you that there is room for a better BDSM animation framework, though.  It's the other stuff outlined in your post that I think would be problematic.)

[Nymra]

41 minutes ago, Holzfrau said:

I don't know the history of SL or DD real well, but it's my understanding that the frameworks came first, and then people made mods using them.  What you want to do is a little different - retrofit a set of standards onto existing mods, which causes a few problems:

1. Mod authors who want to use the new framework will have to rewrite the parts of their mod that will use it.  This may be a large enough task that some modders just won't do it.
2. Mod authors may be reluctant to tie their work to a new, unproven framework.  Will they be screwed if the framework's author stops maintaining it?
3. It becomes yet another requirement users need.  Remember, this thread was started with a complaint about complicated requirements.

I think the stuff you're asking for would make a lot of sense if mod authors were all employees of the same company.  Things are a lot messier when you're dealing with a community of individual volunteers instead.

 

(I do agree with you that there is room for a better BDSM animation framework, though.  It's the other stuff outlined in your post that I think would be problematic.)

You are not wrong

As I mentioned earlier, I was just daydreaming. 
 

But just to daydream a bit more:

 

1. Existing mods, well... they would still work without the framework, but could expand and use it for further updates. For example Prison Overhaul could just replace the normal whipping with Framework whipping

 

2. that is where I think a community of modders could step in. I understand that many people are already busy with existing frameworks, so maybe a group could work more reliably on such a thing.

 

3. that is true, but it would also expand the BDSM part of Loverslab (which has quite the demand) by alot. And it would even allow more vanilla stuff for Nexus, like non-sexual torture scenes, forced interrogations or something as simple as paired dancing, lol. 
 

As for the core argument of this thread of many requirements: I think this could only be solved by prepacked mod-packs for people to install. 

I honestly do not understand to this point why such a thing is not possible.

 

Komotor when he ragequit LL (is he back btw?) wrote something like "I will sell Mod Packs on Patreon with all the mods of all you people" and well, I really dont see why Loverslab modders could not do the same. 

 

I could virtually upload my complete Mod Profile from MO to a server and people could download, copy paste and virtually start playing instantly. Even saves with preset MCMs could be provided. 

[Seijin8]

9 hours ago, Nymra said:

But threads like that always point me in that same direction:
- START TO MOD YOURSELF

 

9 hours ago, Nymra said:

But then on the other hand, that is maybe not even possible because no source code or no permission or what not. I dont even know

I'm sorry Nymra, but the reason people keep telling you this is because the nature of your observations/questions makes it clear that you don't have the foggiest notion of what you are talking about.

 

Regarding "source code arguments":

 

All scripting and assets used in mods posted on Loverslab have to be exposed to the public.  If you had ever bothered to look, you would have seen that.  Exposing these assets is done expressly to make it easier for other modders to see how something was done, and either improve upon it, borrow it outright, or at least have an idea how something worked.  This is PIVOTAL to why Loverslab has so many mods available for such a niche community.

 

Mods on Nexus frequently do not have such source assets packaged or available.  The community on LL is forced to do so and I think the benefits of this have far outweighed any issues it might create.  (Further, in my own experience when asking for asset use on LL I have never been turned down by a mod author.  That has not been the case on Nexus.)

 

For virtually every other things you might want to mod, Bethesda's Creation Kit site has you covered with lengthy project-based tutorials and samples and thousands of pages of indexed documentation.

 

There are Discord servers for the CK, xEdit, general modding advice.  There are several reddits where people discuss mod ideas and how to achieve them, many forums and video logs covering nearly every aspect of Skyrim modding, top to bottom.

 

And all the the tools are free to download.

 

Literally, the only thing stopping people from modding is time and willingness to do so.  There are no other barriers.

 

To be blunt (and probably unfair):  You keep telling modders how they should do their work to better benefit you, but you have demonstrated no desire to step up on your own behalf.  If it isn't worth your time to make your vision happen, it sure as fuck isn't worth anyone else's.

[Fotogen]

7 hours ago, Nymra said:

 

As for the core argument of this thread of many requirements: I think this could only be solved by prepacked mod-packs for people to install. 

I honestly do not understand to this point why such a thing is not possible.

 

"Im gonna sell all your mods on Pathreon". Copyright infringement. Don't or you'll have problems with the law.

 

Mod packs. It creates more problems then it solves.

 

1. Mod-pack has many mods. Like A, B, C, D.

2. You need permission from all mod owners to pack them together. You can download for personal use, but you can't re-upload what you don't own. Copyright laws.

3. But why not E? And why B and not X? This sucks!

4. A, B and D mod get regular updates and bug fixes. C rage quits, abandons it, or just pulls the mod out of the pack. Because! What you gonna do now? And mod-pack only makes sense if it has all 4 parts.

 

But you could try it. Pick mods. Download. Install. Write how to install so it works well together. Get permissions from all authors. Pack it. Upload it. No modding required.

 

Also don't forget about "maintanance".  You know. Bugs and people that don't read instructions and requests and ...

 

By the way, you wont see my mod(s) part of the mod-pack. The main reason is "versions". Example:

- I made a mod and make it available at "A"

- It also becomes part of a mod-pack that is available at "B"

- I fix something in my mod (that is available at "A")

- Mod-pack still has old version of my mod (that is available at "B")

- Fotogen your mods sucks! You idot! Nothing works! You broke my PC! Ah, you fix it? Im suppose to get the fix from "A". Why is it not in "B"? Manager of "B" quit? Blah, why is this so complicated!

 

 

[Seijin8]

11 minutes ago, Fotogen said:

Fotogen your mods sucks! You idot! Nothing works! You broke my PC! Ah, you fix it? Im suppose to get the fix from "A". Why is it not in "B"? Manager of "B" quit? Blah, why is this so complicated!

Exactly.

 

For the modder, this looks like a magnification to the already extant clusterfuck of mod users not bothering to read descriptions or pay attention to what they are doing.

[Nymra]

Again, I do not want nor can I tell anybody what they should do. I just try to understand the problem and why the modders themselves to what they do how they do it and how it comes to the problem of the thread as it is. 

 

The rest is just fantasizing. 

 

Towards Modpacks: 

3 hours ago, Fotogen said:

"Im gonna sell all your mods on Pathreon". Copyright infringement. Don't or you'll have problems with the law.

I just quoted what he said, I have no intention to do that myself 

Would be interesting to see if any modder would even try to get the law busy with such a problem. I would believe this to be quite hard given the nature of the mods, the international basis of the community and other barriers. I mean: I could imagine that protecting the rights you have as a mod owner might be quite hard if not impossible? 

 

3 hours ago, Fotogen said:

Mod packs. It creates more problems then it solves.

Of course it will create problems, that is always the easy part to see/anticipate and of course I agree with all your points. But the advantages could still be bigger/worth it. 

 

The biggest advantage (In theory) that I see would be that more people use mods maybe and the respective communities and modders get more attention and maybe also reward from that, maybe leading to more modders even and therefor more content, something we all might profit from. 

 

And I dont think the amount of people who post "modder, your stuff sux" in topics will always be there, its just the nature of things. I also opened alot of stupid threads, made unnecessary comments in support threads because I did not find the solution to the problem even when it was obvious. One hour later I had the bright idea, but well, I already had comments, too. People are just not perfect

 

 

[GenioMaestro]

I apologize but I think this post is deviating and I will try to focus it.

 

The origin of the publication is: Why is it so difficult to modify Skyrim?
And the answer seems to be: because we can do many things and the only way to do it is gradually, following the guidelines, downloading the required modifications and learning during the process.

 

But I think that the main question, and what many people want to know, is something different.
If that is the only way to modify Skyrim and I have been doing it for years, following the guidelines, following the instructions, being very careful, using the utilities over and over again.
I cannot lack experience. I know the method and the utilities. I learned many things and solved many problems.

 

So...

Why (hell) I still have problems?
Why don't my modifications work well?
This mod worked last week and now it doesn't work. If I reinstall it? Damn it, now it works. Why?
How is it possible that the modifications are broken?
Modifying Skyrim may not be so difficult, but I'm going crazy. Something I have to be doing wrong.

 

And my answer is: No, you are not doing anything wrong in the installation of the mods. But that combination of modifications will give you problems because the modifications collide. You can't run all those mods at once without problems. You must know that the mods can collide at different levels: files, ESP, scripts, design, functionality...

 

Can I locate my collisions?
Only you can locate yours owns problems because only you have that exact list of mods in that exact order. Disable mods until the problem disappears and enable them little by little until you find the exact mod that is colliding.

 

And when I find the problem, can I fix it?
It depends on your knowledge and the exact problem. This is where the real problem is.

Sometimes, reinstalling the mod or moving the pluging in the loading order can fix the problem. But only sometimes.
Most of the time just move the problem to another site and that's why the problems never disappear.

To fix these problems you have to locate them, analyze them, find out why they happen and apply the correct solution.
Sometimes they can be fixed with Tes5Edit but other times you need to use Creation Kit and have programming knowledge.

The base of the problem is compatibility.
Mods are made for you to have fun with them. They are not made to be compatible with all others mods.
The creators fix the most serious problems and sometimes offer compatibility patches. But not always. And not for all possible collisions.

We must choose very well the mods that we install because nobody wants problems. Neither users nor creators. Many times we will have problems because one mod does not work well when you join it with another. The logical way for solve the problem have four steps:

Read the forums searching a patch.

Create your own patch, if you know how.

Remove mods

Or live with the problems acusing the mods of have problems and saying that the creators made a bad work.

 

The creators should fix it?
No. It is a problem caused by the combination of modifications. We have created the problem.
That mod was not designed to be compatible with that other mod.
If its work together, give thanks, good luck you've had.
If they give you problems, I'm sorry, choose your mods better.

Sometimes, not even a programmer can fix the problem.

[Psalam]

40 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

I apologize but I think this post is deviating and I will try to focus it.

 

The origin of the publication is: Why is it so difficult to modify Skyrim?
And the answer seems to be: because we can do many things and the only way to do it is gradually, following the guidelines, downloading the required modifications and learning during the process.

 

But I think that the main question, and what many people want to know, is something different.
If that is the only way to modify Skyrim and I have been doing it for years, following the guidelines, following the instructions, being very careful, using the utilities over and over again.
I cannot lack experience. I know the method and the utilities. I learned many things and solved many problems.

 

So...

Why (hell) I still have problems?
Why don't my modifications work well?
This mod worked last week and now it doesn't work. If I reinstall it? Damn it, now it works. Why?
How is it possible that the modifications are broken?
Modifying Skyrim may not be so difficult, but I'm going crazy. Something I have to be doing wrong.

 

And my answer is: No, you are not doing anything wrong in the installation of the mods. But that combination of modifications will give you problems because the modifications collide. You can't run all those mods at once without problems. You must know that the mods can collide at different levels: files, ESP, scripts, design, functionality...

 

Can I locate my collisions?
Only you can locate yours owns problems because only you have that exact list of mods in that exact order. Disable mods until the problem disappears and enable them little by little until you find the exact mod that is colliding.

 

And when I find the problem, can I fix it?
It depends on your knowledge and the exact problem. This is where the real problem is.

Sometimes, reinstalling the mod or moving the pluging in the loading order can fix the problem. But only sometimes.
Most of the time just move the problem to another site and that's why the problems never disappear.

To fix these problems you have to locate them, analyze them, find out why they happen and apply the correct solution.
Sometimes they can be fixed with Tes5Edit but other times you need to use Creation Kit and have programming knowledge.

The base of the problem is compatibility.
Mods are made for you to have fun with them. They are not made to be compatible with all others mods.
The creators fix the most serious problems and sometimes offer compatibility patches. But not always. And not for all possible collisions.

We must choose very well the mods that we install because nobody wants problems. Neither users nor creators. Many times we will have problems because one mod does not work well when you join it with another. The logical way for solve the problem have four steps:

Read the forums searching a patch.

Create your own patch, if you know how.

Remove mods

Or live with the problems acusing the mods of have problems and saying that the creators made a bad work.

 

The creators should fix it?
No. It is a problem caused by the combination of modifications. We have created the problem.
That mod was not designed to be compatible with that other mod.
If its work together, give thanks, good luck you've had.
If they give you problems, I'm sorry, choose your mods better.

Sometimes, not even a programmer can fix the problem.

First and foremost, thanks for getting the thread back on track.

 

Next, it isn't JUST mod using that's difficult, even if that is the difficulty all of us have faced. Making mods results in much of the same difficulty. Even uploading mods to a site can be difficult. Making patches (a good point you made there) isn't easy and obvious.

 

Finally, to quote you:

 

That mod was not designed to be compatible with that other mod.

 

Why not? I understand that not everything can be done that way but much more could be. Look at Inte and Kimy. If their public statements are to be believed they don't even like each other very much BUT they managed (with the rest of the DD team) to put together a framework that is much appreciated and used by a LOT of mod authors who had nothing to do with it's creation. I know you think I'm naive for saying so but why can't we cooperate to make Skyrim modding easier for others?