Mod Packs- Another Look

[Guest]

1 hour ago, dagobaking said:

Good point. These automation systems aren't much different than someone just installing mods someone else recommends. It just has the benefit of being faster and takes control of some fine-tuning to avoid mistakes.

I'm going to go for the opposite strategy and release ONLY source code. Everyone will have to compile it to use it.

You shoot your foot and your hands if you do that.
The guys who is going to compile your code is probably going to ask more money than the original coder simply to compile and share it.

Look at the current mindset, the new gen of modders are mainly converters, guys who convert stuff like clothes, clothes already stollen from others true artists before, the guys who convert do not even credit the original authors, but the put their name in big on their convert ask for money even more than the original authors, and do not give a fuck to original authors.

The modpacks and those shit are just the following of these mind fucked.
And it's simply killing the modding scene.

It's not by giving all in a pack that you're going to see people learn a bit of things, and give them envy to became a true modder to build their own stuff..
It's more going to create more thieves because some can find easy to take all the work of other to make easy money on the back of talented people yes, but it's not going to make a bigger community of artists or more serious people. 

Any people having some talent and who open their eyes, are probably clever enough to do not collaborate and give anything for modding communities, especially now.
Some new noobs ones yea, like now, convert what is already exist, convert the work of true artists or coders in their own interest and build another communities of assholes having even less respect for authors than the previous generation..
 

[dagobaking]

1 hour ago, komotor said:

You shoot your foot and your hands if you do that.
The guys who is going to compile your code is probably going to ask more money than the original coder simply to compile and share it.

I'm just kidding. Besides, I prefer to put my foot in my mouth WHILE I shoot it!

 

[KoolHndLuke]

On 9/21/2019 at 3:48 AM, gurugeorge said:

With fancy bodies, jiggly bits, interacting jiggly bits, and the Sexlab stuff, that's another layer of hellish complication again - to the extent that one could fairly say that you can turn Skyrim into an amusing porn sim, but an amusing porn sim only for reasonably high-IQ people

So.......they're mod packs for stupid or lazy people? Sure, I get that. But, all this "streamlining" modding is going the opposite direction of where I think mods should be going- and that is to help people understand more about their game and how it and mods work. I remember that music, tv, and movies were all seriously homogenized over the decades through "streamlining" the industry which sort of destroyed individual creativity, ie, none in any of those respective industries want to take a chance on anything anymore and artist became fed up and left.

 

There are a lot of really decent-good mods out there that will never see inclusion in any mod pak.

 

With this in mind, I still see mod paks as doing the community more harm than good.

[KoolHndLuke]

7 hours ago, komotor said:

And it's simply killing the modding scene.

Yeah, authors are pulling shit left and right in protest. May not be the end of modding, but it sure as hell is the end of modding as we used to know it.

 

Creation Club

Monetization of mods

And NOW!!........Mod Paks!

 

More bricks in the wall for mod authors.....

[Rayblue]

12 hours ago, DoctaSax said:

Scary thought - mods coming as .exes, scanning for whatever, writing things outside your mod install folder... I thought we were long past that.

Used to be standard practice among some MW, FO and Oblivion modders, of simply running an executable installer for one-shot ease instead of mucking around with the plugin list, back before there were really decent programs like Wrye.

 

Now I'm told it's a security concern because of how the resident genius of animation wanted to stop "piracy" in any form.

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, Rayblue said:

Used to be standard practice among some MW, FO and Oblivion modders, of simply running an executable installer for one-shot ease instead of mucking around with the plugin list, back before there were really decent programs like Wrye.

 

Now I'm told it's a security concern because of how the resident genius of animation wanted to stop "piracy" in any form.

Yeah, fuck exe installers. Don't want em. Don't need em. Convenient? Yes. Potential security risk? You bet! Not sure how piracy ties in, though. But, peeps are so fuckin lazy now that they just want to click a few buttons to install a bunch-o-mods. I really like my unique mod lists comprised of new, old, popular, sleepers downloaded from multiple sites. I can build my games how ever I want without someone else predetermining things for me.

 

Which leads me to my biggest bitch about mod packs; WHO THE FUCK decides what is included and what isn't? Yeah.......250+ mods of their choosing- not yours. Sure, modpaks will give anyone a modded game. But, because they don't go through the process of reading shit, downloading individual mods, and then sorting/patching things- they won't know the first thing about modding in general. Learning the workings of your modded game are essential for doing anything beyond the plug and play shit.

 

[Holzfrau]

15 hours ago, Rokabur said:

The dickbag has locked the comments on USLEP AND has deleted every comment since April 25, 2018.

Not quite.  The USLEEP comments had already been locked, but he unlocked them for the EXE change to bask in the reaction he knew it would create (per his comments on the GMAD forum on the Nexus).  The EXE change has since been reverted, perhaps because the Wabbajack developer added support for it in about 15 minutes.

 

At any rate, I think the root of a lot of the Automaton/Wabbajack hate is people misunderstanding what the tools do.  They are just automatic downloaders and installers, they don't redistribute anybody's mods.  The end goal of these tools is to deliver a completely modded Skyrim without requiring someone to invest their time and expertise into creating their own load order from scratch, so pretty much like existing modlists but with everything automated.

 

@KoolHndLuke, the plug and play audience is exactly what these tools are intended for, the kind of people who see a cool screenshot or video or whatever and want that to be their Skyrim too.

[gregathit]

10 minutes ago, Holzfrau said:

  The end goal of these tools is to deliver a completely modded Skyrim without requiring someone to invest their time and expertise into creating their own load order from scratch, so pretty much like existing modlists but with everything automated.

And this is what I view as the worst possible thing for modding.  Yes, there is a steep learning curve in learning how to mod your game.  However, it is EXACTLY what is needed in order to birth new mod makers.  If an easy button is created, that ultimately hurts the community in the long run.  It sure as heck doesn't help it.  So the causal game player doesn't get to experience a 250+ mod game.........who freaking cares about them anyway?  Most of them just play for a bit and then move on to the next game, so what is the point?   

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for tools that make things easier for both mod makers and mod installers both, but there needs to be a little bit of a hurdle to overcome to hook folks into it.  That is just my opinion.

[Holzfrau]

18 minutes ago, gregathit said:

And this is what I view as the worst possible thing for modding.  Yes, there is a steep learning curve in learning how to mod your game.  However, it is EXACTLY what is needed in order to birth new mod makers.  If an easy button is created, that ultimately hurts the community in the long run.  It sure as heck doesn't help it.  So the causal game player doesn't get to experience a 250+ mod game.........who freaking cares about them anyway?  Most of them just play for a bit and then move on to the next game, so what is the point?   

The casuals that are as fickle as you say weren't going to become mod makers anyway.  But the addition of automated tools could just as easily work out the other way, getting people who were intimidated by modding in the past to give it a try.

 

Quote

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for tools that make things easier for both mod makers and mod installers both, but there needs to be a little bit of a hurdle to overcome to hook folks into it.  That is just my opinion.

I will probably never use Automaton/Wabbajack, and I doubt you will either.  But we're not the target audience for those tools, and frankly I don't care how other people enjoy their game.  Saying we need to keep modding less accessible just sounds like pointless gatekeeping in my opinion.

[KoolHndLuke]

27 minutes ago, Holzfrau said:

intimidated by modding in the past to give it a try.

Geez, I just never understood this at all. My friends say the same stupid thing and I'm like "Stop being a baby! It ain't that hard." You have to make them want to learn by showing what is possible. Maybe mod paks are a step in that direction? But it don't feel like it.

[Psalam]

1) I don't give a rat's ass (or a skeever's tail) either way about modpacks. There are (as has already clearly been shown) distinct and distinctive pros and cons.

 

2) As I think my history on this site shows I do care A LOT about making mod using as easy as possible. I come out of a profession where I went through what, in retrospect, can only be called hazing because "that's the way it's always been done," or "we need to know how these young people can handle the stress," or any number of other useless and meaningless platitudes. Educational theory in current times clearly shows that doing this is nonsense. What it boils down to, in my humble opinion, is two things. First, having gone through the hazing of trying to figure out how to mod (both in the sense of using mods without ruining your game and in the sense of making mods) modders are reluctant to make it easier on those coming after them. You can fill in whatever excuse/reason you want for that but it seems like misplaced pride when you're on the receiving end, at least in my experience. Second, and just as relevant is that modders either are lousy teachers or they view themselves as lousy teachers and therefore don't really try to train up those who are newer to the scene.

 

3) I do believe that, statistically speaking, the more people who get into modding (in both senses) the more mods, and different mods, and hopefully, better mods will become available. Yes, it is true that many are "fickle" and just want the voyeuristic experience. That's their right I suppose. However, many will get on Support Threads and ask "why don't you..." or "why can't you..." Those who are handled as if they were reasonable, intelligent adults may become interested enough in the answers to pursue more modding. Those who are not so treated, and sadly there are any number of threads even here on LL that look like this, are going to quit and say "a pox on both your houses."

[KoolHndLuke]

27 minutes ago, Psalam said:

modders are reluctant to make it easier on those coming after them

Yeah, I get that feeling as well sometimes. Misplaced pride seems a likely answer.

 

27 minutes ago, Psalam said:

Those who are handled as if they were reasonable, intelligent adults may become interested enough in the answers to pursue more modding. Those who are not so treated, and sadly there are any number of threads even here on LL that look like this, are going to quit and say "a pox on both your houses."

Seen this as well. Unfortunately, unless the response falls outside the rules, there isn't much one can do about it- except dismiss it and move on undaunted. Respect is usually earned here on LL and other sites and if they can't deal with a bit of rough handling then they probably don't have the temperament for learning much about mods in the first place. I just view it as some sort of initiation, though most here seem to be courteous and helpful. 

[DoctaSax]

I don't mind these automated installs too much either - other than it being another wedge in already overly divided community. Like we need more reasons for people to insult each other - some overly entitled users on the one hand screaming that modders don't have any say over their own work, a few diva modders on the other trying to prove the reverse by using their mods, or the availability of them, to drive home their point while making the other side's for them. Everyone else forced to pick sides and getting distracted by the noise.

All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.

[gregathit]

1 hour ago, Holzfrau said:

I will probably never use Automaton/Wabbajack, and I doubt you will either.  But we're not the target audience for those tools, and frankly I don't care how other people enjoy their game.  Saying we need to keep modding less accessible just sounds like pointless gatekeeping in my opinion.

Obviously no one who knows how to mod will bother with these as they don't have any flexibility.  Which is why we learned to mod in the first place.  We like things the way we like them.  My tastes will be different from yours, even if it is only slightly.

 

I never said anything about gatekeeping, those are your words, not mine.  I want more modders, not less, so gatekeeping makes zero sense.  What I said we shouldn't waste time trying to make things so simple they are idiot proof.  Actual modding, even with the best of tools still involves a bit of work.   I don't see anything wrong with that.  If there is no work involved, there can't be any sort of accomplishment.  There definitely won't be any sort of realization of the work that went into the tools or mods.  If folks truly want things, they'll put in the work to make it happen.  I just don't see what is wrong with that.

 

I'm all for better tools, but automation tends to make folks lazy and keeps them ignorant.  Which leads to more support and hand out, mouth open attitudes.

[Holzfrau]

23 minutes ago, gregathit said:

What I said we shouldn't waste time trying to make things so simple they are idiot proof.

Who's "we"?  Not anyone involved in this conversation here, I'd think.  The modding community at large?  Well, they put out lots of stuff I'll never use, but I'd never try to claim that they're wasting their time.

[KoolHndLuke]

19 minutes ago, Holzfrau said:

Who's "we"?  Not anyone involved in this conversation here, I'd think.  The modding community at large?  Well, they put out lots of stuff I'll never use, but I'd never try to claim that they're wasting their time.

What? What? Didn't see that coming!

[27X]

3 hours ago, Holzfrau said:

 

At any rate, I think the root of a lot of the Automaton/Wabbajack hate is people misunderstanding what the tools do. 

Umm no. The hate is people completely understanding what is being done right now as we speak.

[dagobaking]

6 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

So.......they're mod packs for stupid or lazy people? Sure, I get that. But, all this "streamlining" modding is going the opposite direction of where I think mods should be going- and that is to help people understand more about their game and how it and mods work.

Why though? When we buy $60 games we expect them to work right out of the box without technical knowledge about how they were built. I don't see why that same goal shouldn't exist for mod users too.

 

Following the logic that people should have to learn more to use mods, my joke about only releasing source code would actually make sense. It would effectively force people to have to learn how to set up a Papyrus development environment, install Adobe Animate and publish swf files, etc. if they wanted to use my mod.

4 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Which leads me to my biggest bitch about mod packs; WHO THE FUCK decides what is included and what isn't? Yeah.......250+ mods of their choosing- not yours. Sure, modpaks will give anyone a modded game. But, because they don't go through the process of reading shit, downloading individual mods, and then sorting/patching things- they won't know the first thing about modding in general.

I assume that mod packs will have endorsements and rankings. So, if someone puts together a bad pack, it won't move up the rankings and get used as much as better options.

 

This will give mod pack creators an incentive to test and support issues that come up in order to improve their ranking. That seems like a good thing for users.

3 hours ago, Holzfrau said:

Not quite.  The USLEEP comments had already been locked, but he unlocked them for the EXE change to bask in the reaction he knew it would create (per his comments on the GMAD forum on the Nexus).  The EXE change has since been reverted, perhaps because the Wabbajack developer added support for it in about 15 minutes.

Where is this happening? Reddit? Nexus? I feel that I am missing an incredible drama.

3 hours ago, gregathit said:

And this is what I view as the worst possible thing for modding.  Yes, there is a steep learning curve in learning how to mod your game.  However, it is EXACTLY what is needed in order to birth new mod makers.

Certainly a possibility. I feel like mod authors typically have some technical background before they found modding. Or, they were just motivated enough by their imagination to try to figure it out.

 

Troubleshooting mod conflicts and reading install guides isn't a very fun way to learn the skills.

1 hour ago, gregathit said:

I'm all for better tools, but automation tends to make folks lazy and keeps them ignorant.  Which leads to more support and hand out, mouth open attitudes.

But, it also puts a mod-pack creator in the position of having to support those people. I certainly plan to send mod-conflict related issues to the pack creator if one is being used.

[full_inu]

Nexusmods pushing an automation tool/Wabbajacks for their premium user accounts, while most mods authors were not aware / retired of modding / opted out of their donation system?

Sounds like a great excuse for everyone, who wants to start monetize their Skyrim modding efforts, right now.

[Holzfrau]

52 minutes ago, 27X said:

Umm no. The hate is people completely understanding what is being done right now as we speak.

If you'd like to enlighten me, I'm all ears.  The biggest concern I know of, Wabbajack's self-replication, is on the way out.

24 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

Where is this happening? Reddit? Nexus? I feel that I am missing an incredible drama.

Yeah, there was a pretty big dramasplosion about it, mainly on Reddit.  It's pretty much blown over now.

Thread 1

Thread 2 (If you have access to the General Mod Author Discussion forum on Nexus, Arthmoor's posts on pages 2 & 23 of the A fomod installer declaration against Mod Packs thread show that the reasons behind the exe patch are much less benign than this guy makes them out to be)

Thread 3

[27X]

37 minutes ago, Holzfrau said:

If you'd like to enlighten me, I'm all ears.  The biggest concern I know of, Wabbajack's self-replication, is on the way out.

Yeah, there was a pretty big dramasplosion about it, mainly on Reddit.  It's pretty much blown over now.

Thread 1

Thread 2 (If you have access to the General Mod Author Discussion forum on Nexus, Arthmoor's posts on pages 2 & 23 of the A fomod installer declaration against Mod Packs thread show that the reasons behind the exe patch are much less benign than this guy makes them out to be)

Thread 3

three different people are making literally thousands of dollars a month for making a text file and gatekeeping assets they don't own. Google belmont boy for a sample, the chinese dude doing the same is making three times what he is.

 

you're about six months behind the curve.

[Holzfrau]

46 minutes ago, 27X said:

three different people are making literally thousands of dollars a month for making a text file and gatekeeping assets they don't own. Google belmont boy for a sample, the chinese dude doing the same is making three times what he is.

 

you're about six months behind the curve.

Doesn't sound all that different to me than YouTubers making money off of mod showcases, just a matter of degree.  I doubt these guys are taking money that would have ended up in the mod authors' pockets anyway.

 

It's not like mod lists are a new thing, either.  What are the concerns with automated downloaders/installers in particular?  I've heard of authors concerned about fewer clicks to their mod page, but Wabbajack is getting a slideshow feature that is supposed to help remedy that.  If they're worried about the mod list creators making even more money, the horses left the barn on that one a long time ago.

[27X]

7 hours ago, Holzfrau said:

Doesn't sound all that different to me than YouTubers making money off of mod showcases

Not even kind of.

 

This is dolphin = air people = air people = dolphins level mental gymnastics.

[dagobaking]

Nexus automation would most likely put Belmont Boy and Chinese Dude out of business.

[GrimReaper]

Be careful what you wish for or something like that. I think this behavior has been invited by the recent shifts inside the modding community - monetizing mods means creating a market which means the demand for better products. A modpack is much more accessible to a much broader audience than modding your game yourself. So for the average consumer, modpacks are a blessing, just like patreon was a blessing for modders who wanted to monetize their mods. But patreon is pretty fragmented, there's hundreds of modders keeping their stuff behind a paywall. This is pretty anti-consumer to say the least, so of course there's demand for a more streamlined approach. Doesn't help that many modders hide in their very own corner of the internet, there's no centralized place to get mods anymore. Sure, there's the nexus and LL but I've gotten the feeling that the former is just for people who want to get into the creation club and the latter is more or less a billboard for 'support me on patreon plz' nowadays.

 

That the people at the very end of the process get the most money out of it is also pretty natural. Folks making money by selling animations or those who port armor mods etc. are only able to do that because the stuff that's needed for them to get to work is provided for free. It would be pretty ironic if those people now complain about someone else doing pretty much the same thing. It's only unfair if you're on the wrong side of the deal, I suppose.