Mod Packs- Another Look

[KoolHndLuke]

@daboking You make some decent arguments, but it seems half-hearted rambling/conjecture. I can't help but agree with most everything Greg has said to this point.

 

[dagobaking]

3 hours ago, gregathit said:

what have you provided?  Red herrings, straw-men and yelling squirrel.

lol. All you have done is convince me that you don't actually understand what these terms mean. Rest is just more ad hominem.

2 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

it seems half-hearted rambling/conjecture.

half-hearted? I definitely don't think this is a subject worth cheerleading over. But, I'm happy with the case I made for my opinion.

[gregathit]

34 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

lol. All you have done is convince me that you don't actually understand what these terms mean. Rest is just more ad hominem.

half-hearted? I definitely don't think this is a subject worth cheerleading over. But, I'm happy with the case I made for my opinion.

ROFL!!!  Let's summarize this for those in the cheap seats:

Greg:  Evidence, examples, logic.

You:  Nonsense about throwing rocks and making windows, then hollering "squirrel".

Conclusion:  Yep, you won.  ROFL!!!  Like I said before, avoid debates.  You're terrible at it.  Everyone sees it now and you are just making this silly.  Move on already.

[dagobaking]

24 minutes ago, gregathit said:

ROFL!!!  Let's summarize this for those in the cheap seats:

Greg:  Evidence, examples, logic.

You:  Nonsense about throwing rocks and making windows, then hollering "squirrel".

Conclusion:  Yep, you won.  ROFL!!!  Like I said before, avoid debates.  You're terrible at it.  Everyone sees it now and you are just making this silly.  Move on already.

I think that your biggest obstacle is that anyone reading this comment can also just read the actual exchange and see that your characterization isn't true.

[gregathit]

17 hours ago, dagobaking said:

I think that your biggest obstacle is that anyone reading this comment can also just read the actual exchange and see that your characterization isn't true.

Right.  Of course.  Illusions really are fun.  Say hello to your imaginary friend while you are chillin' in your safe space.

[dagobaking]

17 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Right.  Of course.  Illusions really are fun.  Say hello to your imaginary friend while you are chillin' in your safe space.

?‍♂️

 

Looks real to me: 

 

[gregathit]

47 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

blah, blah.......

[RitualClarity]

On 9/29/2019 at 11:40 PM, KoolHndLuke said:

Makes me wonder what the description will be for modpaks with a shitload of mods together. How the fuck are they gonna explain all that shit? Oh! That's right......they won't- it'll be a surprise! 

 

If modpaks have been done before and didn't work out, then why does anyone think they'll work better now? Just seems like an angle to me. Keep the users in the dark more so you can wedge a crowbar in their wallet later sort of thing.

I hope it worked out... SMMP is a mod pack of several mods for Sexout that are basis for most of the Sexout mods.  One click, get the link and download.  If it never worked out.. then I should just kill that project. (not directed at you @KoolHndLuke more for comic relief and your quote was something I could jump from in this mess of a thread of people attacking each other)  As far as I know .. it is working out for those few that decide to use it.

 

Also there is /was a mod pack of all the SCR requirements here on LL. (not sure if it is still here. I prefer to install the requirements independently. Also, need to since I also need to check on my guide from time to time ) There have been many compilations (mod packs) for Sexout over the years. (issue with that was they needed to be updated often, not that they didnt' work out. The author just couldn't keep up with the maintenance)

 

Those are two that as far as I know work quite well from my understanding. By all means if anyone knows otherwise please let me know.

 

Wall of text below. It is based on my personal experience being someone that creates mod packs here on LL and have been doing so or assisting in such for many years.
 

Spoiler

 

Descriptions:

.. well what the mods are included. What is required and links included to the mod pages. Some other sources, a brief instruction to install and/or some potential issues and their solutions. That is what could be and really should be (depending on the mod pack) included in the OP. The OP or download page should have all the info needed, and whatever instructions needed to use the modpack, not unlike any other mod. The only difference perhaps is the need for referencing the authors and their original pages of the mods used. Both to give the user of teh mod pack the opportunity to use the mod pack page as a jumping point to gather up all the mods independently, but also to provide an option for additional support if questions directed to the mod pack thread on a problem indicates something specific to a mod used. The user can then go to the main thread for some added support. Also, to give a much needed and seriously required nod TO THE AUTHOR THAT WAS GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO ALLOW THEIR WORK TO BE COMBINED IN THE MOD PACK.  This is no small feat... I can assure you. They have to trust the person combining the mods to do it correctly and not add to their support calls. One bad mod pack can seriously FUCK UP THE ENTIRE GAME.  However, a good mod pack of central required mods.. can be a god send to make sure the main parts are properly installed and nothting was forgotten. How often to you authors have to tell someone to install x, y, and/or z?  Mod packs can solve this.

 

ISSUES:

Some issues that does occur is the user if new doesn't know which mod when bad or had a conflict when there is one with such a large pack. Can't really make an informed decision if they want to keep a favored mod and get rid of another one that was included. Easier if it was separate. However, that is not what this system is designed for. It is designed to provide a quick start to people with a single download with minimum clicks and muss and fuss. 

 

Another issue is some of the requirements that would be really great included can't for some reason or another. From permissions or reluctance by the author (experienced with SMMP) and I can respect that. To technical issues of size or the need to make choices in the installation. It is one thing to create a FMOD for a mod or two, It is quite a different thing to make one for a mass of mods that have many different authors making their changes independently.

 

CONSIDERATIONS:

Finally, one of the most important aspects after author respect and/or permissions and potential technical issues... that is keeping it updated.  For SMMP, Sexout is quite mature and the mods included are also very mature. Not much changing.  If there are needs for updates to the system and I am not able to merge them into the main download in a timely manner, I can post it in the OP or second post for an update. The author of the mod in question is made aware of the need for updates so if someone comes along with an older problem and mentions SMMP they can just tell them to update x mod.

 

Which leads into support. It is explicitly understood or should be, that the author of the mod pack is expected to support the mod pack. What does that mean. They need to be present and assist the user in the installation and problem solving of such. Missing requirements that have been mentioned and basic support of the mods included. You know, those common issues that occur with the included mods that have been repeated time and time again. The authors of the mods included are expected to assist where possible on this point, but more importantly assist the mod pack creator with more advanced questions that might come up. There needs to be an agreement between the authors and the mod pack creator on when to send the user to their support threads. Generally, it is when it is something that is clearly a mod specific glitch or problem not an installation, configuration and/or basic common occurrence to that mod. In general a good mod pack creator should be aware of the various issues that might come up with the mods included and inform their users on the issues and any fixes if available. Where possible the mod pack creator should be the first line / first place where questions are posted for those that use that system.

 

Becoming outdated: The mods in a mod pack can easily become outdated, especially with a system that is newer or being currently developed. The nice thing about a mod pack is the user should be able to update the independent components in a as needed situation.  I personally view mod packs as a starting point to get up and running quickly. To be able to get all the various items without having to go (as one person previously mentioned) to multiple of locations to download this and that and then then other thing. In general, if something is glitched an experienced person (or someone with support from a author or user) can just download a mod and install over to update or correct the issues.

 

As far as someone steeling shit.. well they can steal a single mod just the same as a compilation of mods. If I was going to steal something I would much more prefer to take a single mod from an author as opposed to a multi mod combination. If I have a problem with a single mod.. easier to fix! Can remove it easily from my mod list and find something to replace it.. Massive packs.. not so much. It is either a go or no go situation.

 

EXPERIENCES:

I've made personal mod packs since the beginning. Then assisted the various Sexout Compilations by various individuals over the years on this site and there wasn't much of a problem that wasn't experienced in any other traditional mod. (Tech) Then I started making one for some of the various mods used for Sexout Breeder, Fertile Breeder and the like. More advanced pregnancy mods to be exact. There were so many pieces added to an already complex system that it was difficult for some newer (and some experienced) users to setup. This helped a lot. The authors of those mods and some that use it actually direct some to the SMMP for that very purpose.  There are very few problems. Mostly just an update to a file here and there. Recently someone asked some details on what the individual files did on the SMMP thread. (My bad.. I had omitted the info which is necessary and my responsibility being the source of the materials used from those going there. )

 

OPINION:

If done correctly, carefully crafted, reasonably supported and authors rights respected, mod packs can be a good thing. Makes it easier for some newer people to get more advanced systems up and running easier. Less support request as the system is likely be more accurate in its setup (at least along the mod pack's installation)  That being said.. Mod packs shouldn't be the "go to" or "vogue" new age solution for all that ails the user and authors alike.  There are so many ways a mod pack or system can go wrong. So many complex pieces from most likely very different authors, it can be a disaster if not approached correctly.

 

CONCLUSION:

I might not be someone that makes massive or major mod packs but I do make them. I support them along with the author's that allowed their mods to be included into the pack. So I believe I have some credibility in discussing this fact. I only read some of the past few pages and can say most of those that input their ideas are correct in many ways but I believe the whole picture inst' being properly covered.  I am not an author of mods, I do some support guides and tutorials and watch over some older mods that they author has moved on from so my words might not be important enough or along any one's personal preferences or beliefs. I am only writing form my personal experiences with mod packs over the time being part of LL and all the packs that have come through in the past before my submissions. I hope I am helping the community here on LL with my meager attempts at making things easier from combining a few mods for download or through providing assistance in support or through documents. If there is a REAL and true full reason or issue with mod packs and they shouldn't ever be used then please come to a consensus and I will be happy to remove my meager offering (SMMP) without feeling any offense. 

 

 

The above is a personal experience.  This is a hostile thread and my post isn't intended to cause offense or be hostile to anyone (especially @KoolHndLuke my bud ) Just some personal experiences and thoughts since I have done mod packs and assisted with them in the past.  I am not against proper questions (clarifying some aspect I posted above, statements to the counter, etc but ) I am not going to degrade into an argument on any aspect of the above.

 

 

[KoolHndLuke]

24 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

SMMP is a mod pack of several mods for Sexout that are basis for most of the Sexout mods

True. I didn't think of that. Your right that mod packs can be swell for new users when done as thoroughly and carefully as you and some others seem to have- with proper acknowledgement to the original authors and all.

 

32 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

For SMMP, Sexout is quite mature and the mods included are also very mature. Not much changing

And that's one of my gripes. Kudos to anyone that wants to deal with that headache for newer games. Constant updates will keep your head spinning.

 

36 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

There are so many ways a mod pack or system can go wrong. So many complex pieces from most likely very different authors, it can be a disaster if not approached correctly

Agreed. I still think that in order for modpaks to be better, mods themselves need to be more organized. It's getting there, but it's like trying to rope in a bunch of slippery eels. I still don't think the mod-tiers idea I had was a terrible one.

 

44 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

If there is a REAL and true full reason or issue with mod packs and they shouldn't ever be used then please come to a consensus and I will be happy to remove my meager offering (SMMP) without feeling any offense.

Nah. You know this is all just typical LL debate stuff. I'm not sure if any "consensus" is even achievable here (or anywhere else) on anything related to gaming and mods. Please carry on and keep up the good work! 

[RitualClarity]

1 hour ago, KoolHndLuke said:

1. True. I didn't think of that. Your right that mod packs can be swell for new users when done as thoroughly and carefully as you and some others seem to have- with proper acknowledgement to the original authors and all.
2. And that's one of my gripes. Kudos to anyone that wants to deal with that headache for newer games. Constant updates will keep your head spinning.
3. Agreed. I still think that in order for modpaks to be better, mods themselves need to be more organized. It's getting there, but it's like trying to rope in a bunch of slippery eels. I still don't think the mod-tiers idea I had was a terrible one.
4. Nah. You know this is all just typical LL debate stuff. I'm not sure if any "consensus" is even achievable here (or anywhere else) on anything related to gaming and mods. Please carry on and keep up the good work! 

(Edited the quoted post slightly adding numbers for clarity and easy of reading. The rest of the quote is as it was when I responded. )

1. Having a basic "framework" mod pack can be very useful for newer users. I believe the concern was that Nexus is using this approach. I am not sure if I am comfortable with that aspect. Unless it is curated by someone that is experienced and present often for support needed. When you create a mod pack, you are adding all the issues with each of the mods to your offering. Compounding the support needs and requirements for your mod. Even if you only support the basic issues along with the installation and per-requirements mentioned above.. that can be massive and increases each and every mod you add to your pack. This isn't for the faint of heart or the random member to start to take up and do. I do have a concern that "bad actors" in mod pack creation will give a general bad feeling and over all negative community feeling on such systems, and this will be shame considering if done correctly, can be a very useful tool in my opinion
2. Yes, constant updates will keep your head spinning.. The key is to be working with a team of authors that are genuinely involved in the mod pack. With this they can keep you in the loop and assist with some of the basic support. This really helps cut down on the headache. (for both the author of the mod(s) and the author of the mod pack) In reality, the actual combining of mods to create the mod pack with and experienced individual  isn't really that hard. You know the order the mods need to be installed. The headache occurs in the download of the mods (time) and more importantly.. the upload. god.. the upload. The last time I updated SMMP it took over an hour. (not sure how much as I just left my computer and went to work and gave the link later when I came back home) god.. the time to update a large mega mod pack... That is the headache. Heaven forbid you forget a file. Then you have a choice to create a "patch" (and look like a dumb chump) or be the champ and re-upload your patch. (of course if you are the hero doing such a thing as a mod pack, this is a given) This isn't even talking about seriously active mod authors updating their mods. Fortunately, SMMP is mature, so a patch, or a mod update to the download is easy enough. That is the blessing of SMMP. New mods like AAF and their framework and animations.. Don't even think of it.
3. You are 100% accurate there. having an excellent relationship with the author(s) of the mods only go so far. If you have a mod pack with many different mod authors and they are also of the different opinion of directions and paths to follow etc. etc.  You are in a bad time.  Another thing that I forgot to mention but related to this subject... is if the author does a major revamp of their mod... (with the paths and such changed .. essentially a new mod code wise) that that really sinks your ship in a mod pack. You have to redo the pack over. The files are changed in their location means you can't just patch the mod pack. The ENTIRE MOD PACK NEEDS TO BE REMADE AND FOR THE USER RE-DOWNLOADED. That is a very bad thing. Very possible in your example. Also, really needs to be done ASAP or you need to pull your mod pack from downloads upsetting those most in need of your work.
4. I doubt a consensus would be formed and even if it was.. the rule covers for mod packs and such lol. My offer was mostly due to the nature of the discussion. If people didn't like or want what I had to offer.. then it isn't worth offering it .. at least here for the mods used.   Might not be the "cup of tea" for this site but could very well be for another site or situation. Basically, if a group isn't digging or wanting what you have to offer, there are many others out there that you can go to, that will appreciate your efforts. This goes for mods, mod packs, guides, tutorials, support, even membership.  So many opportunities and options it isn't worth pushing something that isn't desired. That is the nature of that last comment I made.

Thank you for your positive comment on my work on this site. I appreciate it. 

 

Thank You for an interesting question of concern for discussion. Shame it degraded into shambles, but, it happens. Hopefully some new info can be obtained by those that read this thread (minus the hostilities) that will give them some new idea, insights or thoughts. In recent years I have tried again and again to get into the habit of gaining more understanding and "clarity" if you will of the world around me.

 

My avatar name isn't rituaclarity for nothing!  LOL.

 

 

[KoolHndLuke]

8 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

rituaclarity

Actually, I think Jack of the Khans made a new drug named this (courtesy of one lone courier that stayed high atft!) 

[RitualClarity]

31 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Actually, I think Jack of the Khans made a new drug named this (courtesy of one lone courier that stayed high atft!) 

He was one of the most enlightened individuals in Fallout NV
LOL

 

I am also a
 

Spoiler

 

  Love that song.. along with Creep. I guess that states alot about me ...   LOL