Mod Packs- Another Look

[gregathit]

2 hours ago, dagobaking said:

Why though? When we buy $60 games we expect them to work right out of the box without technical knowledge about how they were built. I don't see why that same goal shouldn't exist for mod users too.

 

Following the logic that people should have to learn more to use mods, my joke about only releasing source code would actually make sense. It would effectively force people to have to learn how to set up a Papyrus development environment, install Adobe Animate and publish swf files, etc. if they wanted to use my mod.

I assume that mod packs will have endorsements and rankings. So, if someone puts together a bad pack, it won't move up the rankings and get used as much as better options.

 

Troubleshooting mod conflicts and reading install guides isn't a very fun way to learn the skills.

But, it also puts a mod-pack creator in the position of having to support those people. I certainly plan to send mod-conflict related issues to the pack creator if one is being used.

Did you pay 60 dollars for the mod?  Then this is ridiculous and nonsensical comparison. 

There is no logic to follow here.  I mod lots of things and have never had to do anything with Papyrus, so again, this is silly.

 

That mod packs will have rankings is irrelevant.  If it makes folks lazy, what good is it to the modding community?  Why would there even be a community any more.  You just go to some site and download the list and probably never come back.

 

I had ZERO modding experience when I started.  I had ZERO coding experience.  I knew how to start the computer and how to run the game.  That's pretty much it.  I spent my time troubleshooting and reading install guides, just as you stated.  Guess what.........it wasn't fun, but that is how you learn.  I wanted to modify my game.  I experimented.  I tore other mods apart.  I made my own very simple mods.  Baby steps.  Then learned how to use the other tools and programs out there to do what I wanted to do next.  Blender to animate, gimp to modify textures, nifskope and blender to modify meshes and so on.

 

As I said, I'm all for mod tools that help ease folks into learning how to mod.  Nothing wrong with that.  I just don't see how it is going to help grow the mod maker ranks if we go to automated processes.  I'm certainly not going to fight it.  That would be a waste of time.  Folks will do what they want to do.

 

As to supporting a massive mod pack for causal users.  Fuck that noise.  I've spent quite a few years helping folks install lovers with PK mods for oblivion and talk about getting worn out.  These list makers for automated mod packs won't last more than a month trying to support those new to modding.  Been there, seen the movie.  They'll just start ignoring them.  Even if it was a giant pack that folks just had to run one exe file to install it, some will fuck that up.

[gregathit]

5 hours ago, Holzfrau said:

The casuals that are as fickle as you say weren't going to become mod makers anyway.  But the addition of automated tools could just as easily work out the other way, getting people who were intimidated by modding in the past to give it a try.

A great example of this is bodyslide.  I'm all for fantastic tools like this.  To do what bodyslide does when I was heavy into modding oblivion required firing up blender and making lattices.  Then exporting the mesh and checking the seams and back and forth to get things right.  It was horrible.  I'm most definitely for fantastic tools like this.  However, as great a tool as bodyslide is, it still requires you to do a little reading to learn how to use it and understand what it can and can't do.  

 

At the end of the day, I think you and I are not far apart here.  Neither of us wants to see mod making die.  We need new blood with new ideas to constantly refresh the ranks.

[dagobaking]

6 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Did you pay 60 dollars for the mod?  Then this is ridiculous and nonsensical comparison. 

There is no logic to follow here.  I mod lots of things and have never had to do anything with Papyrus, so again, this is silly.

The logic applies exactly the same. If your standards are higher because you paid, how would it logically be bad to achieve the same thing for free?

6 minutes ago, gregathit said:

That mod packs will have rankings is irrelevant.  If it makes folks lazy, what good is it to the modding community?  Why would there even be a community any more.  You just go to some site and download the list and probably never come back.

For three reasons:

 

A) It creates incentive for people (pack authors) who otherwise would not pitch in on support to do so.

B) Nothing about mod packs prevents authors from authoring based on their existing technical ability or simply being motivated to learn.

C) Less time needed supporting users who are content with just sticking to what packs do for them.

6 minutes ago, gregathit said:

I had ZERO modding experience when I started.  I had ZERO coding experience.  I knew how to start the computer and how to run the game.  That's pretty much it.  I spent my time troubleshooting and reading install guides, just as you stated.  Guess what.........it wasn't fun, but that is how you learn.  I wanted to modify my game.  I experimented.  I tore other mods apart.  I made my own very simple mods.  Baby steps.  Then learned how to use the other tools and programs out there to do what I wanted to do next.  Blender to animate, gimp to modify textures, nifskope and blender to modify meshes and so on.

But that isn't the only way. You could do just as well learning by taking apart mods on your own motivation or ability. Not because you are forced to change something to make it work with some other mod.

 

A broken window isn't required to learn how to make windows.

6 minutes ago, gregathit said:

As I said, I'm all for mod tools that help ease folks into learning how to mod.  Nothing wrong with that.  I just don't see how it is going to help grow the mod maker ranks if we go to automated processes.  I'm certainly not going to fight it.  That would be a waste of time.  Folks will do what they want to do.

I don't think it will change the mod author ranks either direction.

6 minutes ago, gregathit said:

As to supporting a massive mod pack for causal users.  Fuck that noise.  I've spent quite a few years helping folks install lovers with PK mods for oblivion and talk about getting worn out.  These list makers for automated mod packs won't last more than a month trying to support those new to modding.  Been there, seen the movie.  They'll just start ignoring them.  Even if it was a giant pack that folks just had to run one exe file to install it, some will fuck that up.

I don't know. S.T.E.P. has been around for a long time. It's pretty much the same thing. Just easier for the end user.

[gregathit]

17 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

The logic applies exactly the same. If your standards are higher because you paid, how would it logically be bad to achieve the same thing for free?

What?  That isn't logic.  it is called a "leap in logic".  How in the world is buying a game the game the same as downloading a mod?  And who in the hell is going to pay 60 dollars for a mod.  This is just silly.

 

17 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

For three reasons:

A) It creates incentive for people (pack authors) who otherwise would not pitch in on support to do so.

B) Nothing about mod packs prevents authors from authoring based on their existing technical ability or simply being motivated to learn.

C) Less time needed supporting users who are content with just sticking to what packs do for them.

But that isn't the only way. You could do just as well learning by taking apart mods on your own motivation or ability. Not because you are forced to change something to make it work with some other mod.

Pitch in on support?  Seriously?  You really think that a list maker is going to provide support for mods in their list.  This is so laughably funny that I'm not going to bother to respond.  Common sense is all that is needed to see this won't happen.  Especially if a mod list becomes popular.  LL is a small site.  I was worn out proving support to a couple of hundred folks when I put together the LAPF.  Multiply that times 10k and it just won't happen.  There won't be any support.  They'll just point folks towards a guide or FAQ sheet and that is that.

17 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

A broken window isn't required to learn how to make windows.

?????  Seriously?  Well if you want to go down this tangent, a broken window does get someone off their ass, especially if it is raining.  Checkmate.

 

17 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

I don't think it will change the mod author ranks either direction.

Of course you would not.  According to you, mod makers are IT graduates.  No real shocker there.

 

17 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

I don't know. S.T.E.P. has been around for a long time. It's pretty much the same thing. Just easier for the end user.

I'm beginning to think you are just writing random shit down in your responses that have nothing to do with what I am saying.  I said folks won't be providing support as it will overwhelm them.  What is the name of all that is holy does that have to do with STEP?  Good grief.  

[KoolHndLuke]

If it ain't fuckin broke, don't fix it!  Sorry, just tired of constant changes. It's a pain in the ass to keep up with.

[Holzfrau]

1 hour ago, 27X said:

Not even kind of.

 

This is dolphin = air people = air people = dolphins level mental gymnastic.

We're obviously looking at this completely differently, then.  What is the damage being done by the guys running mod lists?  Whatever it is, I suppose Automaton/Wabbajack make it worse by expanding their potential donation base, correct?

1 hour ago, gregathit said:

These list makers for automated mod packs won't last more than a month trying to support those new to modding.  Been there, seen the movie.  They'll just start ignoring them.  Even if it was a giant pack that folks just had to run one exe file to install it, some will fuck that up.

Yep, I expect we'll see a flood of shitty mod lists by people hoping to cash in like Belmont Boy when a feature complete installer hits the scene.  I don't expect them to last long either.

1 hour ago, gregathit said:

At the end of the day, I think you and I are not far apart here.  Neither of us wants to see mod making die.  We need new blood with new ideas to constantly refresh the ranks.

Agreed, and I hope I didn't imply otherwise.  Automated installers are inevitable at this point, but I think there's cause for optimism.

[dagobaking]

6 hours ago, gregathit said:

What?  That isn't logic.  it is called a "leap in logic".  How in the world is buying a game the game the same as downloading a mod?  And who in the hell is going to pay 60 dollars for a mod.  This is just silly.

A game and a mod both have user experiences:

• When you buy a game, you expect it to work without you having to learn anything technical.
• If you install mods, it is better for the user if it works like the game: without you having to learn anything technical. For the exact same reason as the game, we installed it to use it. Not to take a course on modding.

Whether or not you paid for it has nothing to do with this truth.

 

Is the logic clear now?

6 hours ago, gregathit said:

Pitch in on support?  Seriously?  You really think that a list maker is going to provide support for mods in their list.  This is so laughably funny that I'm not going to bother to respond.  Common sense is all that is needed to see this won't happen.  Especially if a mod list becomes popular.  LL is a small site.  I was worn out proving support to a couple of hundred folks when I put together the LAPF.  Multiply that times 10k and it just won't happen.  There won't be any support.  They'll just point folks towards a guide or FAQ sheet and that is that.

Just like with regular mods, some will give support and some will not. Those that do will have improved endorsements and will consequently have their mod-pack downloaded more often.

 

This is the way it generally works already with regular mods. I don't see any compelling reason to think it won't work the same with mod-packs. There are people that don't know how to make a mod to save their life. But, they have still spent a lot of time testing combinations of mods and have a skill in that sense. This gives those people an avenue to contribute. I think that is good.

6 hours ago, gregathit said:

?????  Seriously?  Well if you want to go down this tangent, a broken window does get someone off their ass, especially if it is raining.  Checkmate.

It can't be checkmate if you haven't really challenged the actual argument. Someone getting off their ass due to a broken window does not change the point I made at all. You can learn how to make a window without someone throwing rocks through the ones you have on your house.

 

Your argument is essentially that we will not have as many mod authors if mod users don't have to trudge through hundreds of mods that don't always work well with each other. I don't think there is any evidence to back that up. The idea of making a game do what they want will still be compelling to mod authors, even when mods become easier to use in packs.

6 hours ago, gregathit said:

Of course you would not.  According to you, mod makers are IT graduates.  No real shocker there.

Where did I suggest anything remotely like this?

 

I've stated that mod authors can be people who are just motivated to learn by their own imaginations about what mods could do. Mod packs do nothing to block that.

6 hours ago, gregathit said:

I'm beginning to think you are just writing random shit down in your responses that have nothing to do with what I am saying.  I said folks won't be providing support as it will overwhelm them.  What is the name of all that is holy does that have to do with STEP?  Good grief.  

All you have to do is ask. You don't need to salt things with insults.

 

STEP is a list of mods that have been tested as working together. It was way more effort than an automated mod build would be to document and support. They have their own forum just for that one list. And it was a very popular, widely used list for many years (not sure now since I don't use Skyrim).

 

You said that people would give up on supporting a mod-pack. STEP is evidence that there are people who would support them.

[gregathit]

Sigh........

12 hours ago, dagobaking said:

Why though? When we buy $60 games we expect them to work right out of the box without technical knowledge about how they were built. I don't see why that same goal shouldn't exist for mod users too.

 

Following the logic that people should have to learn more to use mods, my joke about only releasing source code would actually make sense. It would effectively force people to have to learn how to set up a Papyrus development environment, install Adobe Animate and publish swf files, etc. if they wanted to use my mod.

This is the leap in logic I was referring to.  Buying a game which comes with an auto installer is not the same as finding and installing a mod and no you don't have to learn to code.

3 hours ago, dagobaking said:

This is the way it generally works already with regular mods. I don't see any compelling reason to think it won't work the same with mod-packs. There are people that don't know how to make a mod to save their life. But, they have still spent a lot of time testing combinations of mods and have a skill in that sense. This gives those people an avenue to contribute. I think that is good.

No it doesn't but keep believing this if you want.  There are lots of popular mods that don't provide shit for support.  Half of the top 100 nexus mods for instance.

If you can't mod to save your life, then you aren't going to be worth a fuck to test shit.  You really think that someone who downloads a 100+ mod list is going to be able to contribute anything besides complaining that it crashed?  Yep, that will be REALLY helpful.   Something tells me you haven't done much modding or mod support.  

3 hours ago, dagobaking said:

It can't be checkmate if you haven't really challenged the actual argument. Someone getting off their ass due to a broken window does not change the point I made at all. You can learn how to make a window without someone throwing rocks through the ones you have on your house.

ROFL!!!!  You can't follow a straight thought to save your life can you?  Seriously, you never had a point anyway.  WTF does that last sentence even mean?  Again with the completely disconnected rambling tangents.  This was never about how a hole was made in the window.  It is just about that there is and it is about to rain and the homeowner needs to get up and fix the window.  Translation, the mod doesn't do what you want, so you learn to mod to get it to do what you want.  So yes, checkmate.  Yelling squirrel doesn't change anything.

3 hours ago, dagobaking said:

Your argument is essentially that we will not have as many mod authors if mod users don't have to trudge through hundreds of mods that don't always work well with each other. I don't think there is any evidence to back that up. The idea of making a game do what they want will still be compelling to mod authors, even when mods become easier to use in packs.

Where did I suggest anything remotely like this?

Please don't tell me what my arguments are when you can't get them right.  My argument is that most folks will chase the mod lists, which will be very difficult to mod due to their size and the potential for conflicts, which will draw off interest in sites like this and fewer folks at sites like this will result in fewer new mod makers.  Mod lists will also discourage those who are making mods as folks will be concentrating on the list and not reading about individual mods and deciding which best fits what they want.  It will be great for those who are just casual gamers, at least for a little while.  Until something breaks.

3 hours ago, dagobaking said:

You don't need to salt things with insults.

I've not insulted you, I've called out your tangents and illogical thoughts.  Don't quote me if you don't like it.

3 hours ago, dagobaking said:

STEP is a list of mods that have been tested as working together. It was way more effort than an automated mod build would be to document and support. They have their own forum just for that one list. And it was a very popular, widely used list for many years (not sure now since I don't use Skyrim).

 

You said that people would give up on supporting a mod-pack. STEP is evidence that there are people who would support them.

Don't fucking make me laugh.  Everyone on this site knows what STEP is.  You trying to be high handed explaining it is asinine.  

Folks making these lists are never going to be anywhere near what STEP is.  Their lists are nothing but cash grabs and ego boosters.  

 

The difference here is experience.  I've seen what happens with stuff like this.  AIO's (all in one) mod packs used to be a thing with Oblivion.  It sounded like wine and roses to a lot of folks.  Casual users especially.  It turned out to be a steaming shit sandwich.  It takes one game update and half your mods are broken. Or someone updates a mod and now you have a conflict with another mod on your list.  God forbid you see a mod that you want to add to your list and find out it isn't compatible.  The saga goes on and on.  Support will be a nightmare.    

 

But hey, we clearly have different opinions.  Time will tell which one turns out to be right and further speculation is pointless.  At the end of the day, neither one of us wants the community or mod making to die out.  As long as that doesn't happen, then all will turn out fine in the end.

[dagobaking]

10 hours ago, gregathit said:

Sigh........

Awesome!

Quote

This is the leap in logic I was referring to.  Buying a game which comes with an auto installer is not the same as finding and installing a mod and no you don't have to learn to code.

The logic of my argument has absolutely zero to do with your observation that buying a game and installing a mod have differences. They do have differences.

 

However, despite those differences, the fact remains that installing software that works without further tinkering is considered a better user experience. That is true for both games and mods.

Quote

No it doesn't but keep believing this if you want.  There are lots of popular mods that don't provide shit for support.  Half of the top 100 nexus mods for instance.

Some mods don't need much support. Neither do they require any kind of configuration. So, absolutely nothing is gained for the community to have thousands of users click more times to install it.

Quote

If you can't mod to save your life, then you aren't going to be worth a fuck to test shit.  You really think that someone who downloads a 100+ mod list is going to be able to contribute anything besides complaining that it crashed?  Yep, that will be REALLY helpful.   

I've seen it first hand with AAF. Several users who are not mod authors have pitched in to help others who are stuck after they figured out how to install related mods/patches. This is valuable and mod-packs give them a way to directly share what they have spent time figuring out.

Quote

Something tells me you haven't done much modding or mod support.

? Something tells me that you haven't checked my post history.

Quote

 ROFL!!!!  You can't follow a straight thought to save your life can you?  Seriously, you never had a point anyway.  WTF does that last sentence even mean?  Again with the completely disconnected rambling tangents.  This was never about how a hole was made in the window.  It is just about that there is and it is about to rain and the homeowner needs to get up and fix the window.  Translation, the mod doesn't do what you want, so you learn to mod to get it to do what you want.  So yes, checkmate.  Yelling squirrel doesn't change anything.

Again, if you don't understand my point, you can simply ask me to clarify rather than make personal insults.

 

You claimed "checkmate" as if you had refuted my argument that people don't need to fix mod conflicts or change existing mods in order to learn how to mod. You still haven't addressed that point.

Quote

My argument is that most folks will chase the mod lists, which will be very difficult to mod due to their size and the potential for conflicts, which will draw off interest in sites like this and fewer folks at sites like this will result in fewer new mod makers. 

Why would installing things correctly in one action instead of from a list that someone recommends here (or anywhere else) cause any change in users interest in content on this site? There will continue to be content only available here and users won't be less interested in it due to an automated installer at Nexus.

Quote

Mod lists will also discourage those who are making mods as folks will be concentrating on the list and not reading about individual mods and deciding which best fits what they want.  It will be great for those who are just casual gamers, at least for a little while.  Until something breaks.

The mod-pack model is similar to common software distributions that have thrived for years. For instance, Linux essentially includes a giant list of independently maintained mods. The "flavors" of Linux are like different mod-packs with different mods pre-installed for different goals.

 

It has not seemed to discourage those communities that users of various Linux flavors don't read the git readme of every piece of software installed. The "mod authors" pitch in with their various niches with the common goal of a good over-all user experience of the OS (including the install process).

Quote

I've not insulted you, I've called out your tangents and illogical thoughts.  Don't quote me if you don't like it.

You absolutely have insulted me multiple times now. Obviously, I am trying to explain my points on this subject and you keep characterizing that is being silly, rambling, etc. There's no other way of interpreting that other than being insulting. Disappointing, coming from a moderator.

Quote

Don't fucking make me laugh.  Everyone on this site knows what STEP is.  You trying to be high handed explaining it is asinine.  

Folks making these lists are never going to be anywhere near what STEP is.  Their lists are nothing but cash grabs and ego boosters. 

I wasn't trying to let you know what STEP is. I was explaining the aspect of it that is comparable to mod-packs and why it backs up my point.

 

Why would the lists never be the same? The goal is the same. Why would the STEP folks not use a tool that accomplishes their goal for users in an easier way?

 

Apart from the meager earnings from Download Points, I don't see cash being a big motivator on Nexus. And it seems to me that insisting everyone read a mods install notes is more ego-driven than those who don't mind their work being part of a pack.

Quote

But hey, we clearly have different opinions.  Time will tell which one turns out to be right and further speculation is pointless.  At the end of the day, neither one of us wants the community or mod making to die out.  As long as that doesn't happen, then all will turn out fine in the end.

Yeah. Different opinions.

 

I think that environments where people are insulted over technical disagreements does more harm to the modding community than mod-packs ever will.

[maddadicusrex]

12 hours ago, gregathit said:

Sigh........

This is the leap in logic I was referring to.  Buying a game which comes with an auto installer is not the same as finding and installing a mod and no you don't have to learn to code.

No it doesn't but keep believing this if you want.  There are lots of popular mods that don't provide shit for support.  Half of the top 100 nexus mods for instance.

If you can't mod to save your life, then you aren't going to be worth a fuck to test shit.  You really think that someone who downloads a 100+ mod list is going to be able to contribute anything besides complaining that it crashed?  Yep, that will be REALLY helpful.   Something tells me you haven't done much modding or mod support.  

ROFL!!!!  You can't follow a straight thought to save your life can you?  Seriously, you never had a point anyway.  WTF does that last sentence even mean?  Again with the completely disconnected rambling tangents.  This was never about how a hole was made in the window.  It is just about that there is and it is about to rain and the homeowner needs to get up and fix the window.  Translation, the mod doesn't do what you want, so you learn to mod to get it to do what you want.  So yes, checkmate.  Yelling squirrel doesn't change anything.

Please don't tell me what my arguments are when you can't get them right.  My argument is that most folks will chase the mod lists, which will be very difficult to mod due to their size and the potential for conflicts, which will draw off interest in sites like this and fewer folks at sites like this will result in fewer new mod makers.  Mod lists will also discourage those who are making mods as folks will be concentrating on the list and not reading about individual mods and deciding which best fits what they want.  It will be great for those who are just casual gamers, at least for a little while.  Until something breaks.

I've not insulted you, I've called out your tangents and illogical thoughts.  Don't quote me if you don't like it.

Don't fucking make me laugh.  Everyone on this site knows what STEP is.  You trying to be high handed explaining it is asinine.  

Folks making these lists are never going to be anywhere near what STEP is.  Their lists are nothing but cash grabs and ego boosters.  

 

The difference here is experience.  I've seen what happens with stuff like this.  AIO's (all in one) mod packs used to be a thing with Oblivion.  It sounded like wine and roses to a lot of folks.  Casual users especially.  It turned out to be a steaming shit sandwich.  It takes one game update and half your mods are broken. Or someone updates a mod and now you have a conflict with another mod on your list.  God forbid you see a mod that you want to add to your list and find out it isn't compatible.  The saga goes on and on.  Support will be a nightmare.    

 

But hey, we clearly have different opinions.  Time will tell which one turns out to be right and further speculation is pointless.  At the end of the day, neither one of us wants the community or mod making to die out.  As long as that doesn't happen, then all will turn out fine in the end.

For a moderator maybe you ought be moderated for acting impolite. Everyone, but you have been civil in this conversation.  Just what is your problem with acting like a decent human being...

[gregathit]

3 hours ago, maddadicusrex said:

For a moderator maybe you ought be moderated for acting impolite. Everyone, but you have been civil in this conversation.  Just what is your problem with acting like a decent human being...

I've debated someone's ideas.  I've not insulted them.  Are you 18?  This is an adult site you know.  We can have frank conversations here.  If you can't handle adults debating ideas, then perhaps you should stick to watching nickelodeon.

[gregathit]

6 hours ago, dagobaking said:

Awesome!

The logic of my argument has absolutely zero to do with your observation that buying a game and installing a mod have differences. They do have differences.

 

However, despite those differences, the fact remains that installing software that works without further tinkering is considered a better user experience. That is true for both games and mods.

Whether it works for a better user experience was never the point.  Does it introduce folks to modding or is it an easy button.  This is the whole problem with you.  You don't stay on track. 

6 hours ago, dagobaking said:

Some mods don't need much support. Neither do they require any kind of configuration. So, absolutely nothing is gained for the community to have thousands of users click more times to install it.

How is this relevant to what I was talking about?  Oh wait, it isn't.  Congrats for another tangent.

6 hours ago, dagobaking said:

You claimed "checkmate" as if you had refuted my argument that people don't need to fix mod conflicts or change existing mods in order to learn how to mod. You still haven't addressed that point.

I claimed checkmate on the point I made.  The posts are there, go read them.  I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over and you misapplying it to your random tangents.  I never claimed there is only one way to learn to mod.  Folks get into it from all sides of the mountain.  That was never disputed, nor could be.  Wait...........didn't I make that point in my second post.........yep.  I did.  You claimed folks had to learn to code and I stated I never had.  Checkmate.

6 hours ago, dagobaking said:

Why would installing things correctly in one action instead of from a list that someone recommends here (or anywhere else) cause any change in users interest in content on this site? There will continue to be content only available here and users won't be less interested in it due to an automated installer at Nexus.

The mod-pack model is similar to common software distributions that have thrived for years. For instance, Linux essentially includes a giant list of independently maintained mods. The "flavors" of Linux are like different mod-packs with different mods pre-installed for different goals.

I told you clearly what would happen.  If you disagree, that's your opinion.  I'm telling you what happened based on actual experience with AIO packs in the days of Oblivion.  It did not help the mod scene or LL.  It drew traffic away and kept folks in the dark as to learning the basics of modding.  

Linux.  You want to bring Linux into the conversation?  What is this minecraft?  Now I'm just laughing my ass off.  Sorry, I'm not chasing the white rabbit here.  I forget what tangent number this is.

6 hours ago, dagobaking said:

It has not seemed to discourage those communities that users of various Linux flavors don't read the git readme of every piece of software installed. The "mod authors" pitch in with their various niches with the common goal of a good over-all user experience of the OS (including the install process).

Other than a few mod authors here and at the Nexus, there is no common goal of anything.  That goes back to the cathedral argument and all that.  Yes, I wish all mod makers would openly share their content and work together, but that time has passed and it doesn't look to be coming back.  Very sad.

6 hours ago, dagobaking said:

You absolutely have insulted me multiple times now. Obviously, I am trying to explain my points on this subject and you keep characterizing that is being silly, rambling, etc. There's no other way of interpreting that other than being insulting. Disappointing, coming from a moderator.

No I haven't.  I've simply pointed out when you introduced nonsensical counter arguments and won't stay on track.  If you are bothered by me not taking the bait when you yell squirrel, too bad.  If you can't handle your ideas and what you type being critiqued, perhaps you should not debate folks.  Especially if you are going to introduce straw men, red hearings and easy to spot tangents.  As to your comments about me being a moderator and acting a certain way...........WTF does that have to do with the debate?  Seriously.  Oh yea, nothing.  ROFL!!!!

6 hours ago, dagobaking said:

I think that environments where people are insulted over technical disagreements does more harm to the modding community than mod-packs ever will.

Thank you for this.  I haven't laughed that hard in a while.  Seriously?  One little debate and what....folks are mass exiting the site.  Give me a freaking break and put on your big boy pants. 

6 hours ago, dagobaking said:

I wasn't trying to let you know what STEP is. I was explaining the aspect of it that is comparable to mod-packs and why it backs up my point.

Why would the lists never be the same? The goal is the same. Why would the STEP folks not use a tool that accomplishes their goal for users in an easier way?

Right......sure.  You were just being condescending for the heck of it.  And no, your comparison is just as silly now as it was then.  STEP is the product of tons of folks with years of work behind it.  Cash grab lists won't be the same thing at all.  If you can't see that, then I can't help you.  So yea, goals not the same.  

As to STEP users using cash grab lists........really?  The whole point of STEP is to teach folks about the modding process.  It isn't to mass download and throw a bunch of shit into your mod folder and hope for the best.  That you could allude to this makes me think you really aren't familiar with STEP at all.  Say hello to Captain Obvious.

6 hours ago, dagobaking said:

Apart from the meager earnings from Download Points, I don't see cash being a big motivator on Nexus. 

Cash or no cash, lists take the focus away from looking at mods and seeing what you think you want to personalize your game, to a fetch quest of go get this and that.  Sure it is easier, but it sure as hell isn't as informative.  This is the whole point regarding potentially killing communities.  Folks on a fetch quest aren't going to stick around beyond them fetching what they need.  Why would they?

6 hours ago, dagobaking said:

And it seems to me that insisting everyone read a mods install notes is more ego-driven than those who don't mind their work being part of a pack.

Wow.  Really?  Thanks for invalidating everything you said to this point.  To say something like this makes me think you've never provided direct support for a mod with a lot of casual modders.  That you could even utter words like that clears a lot of things up.  Ego has never had anything to do with insisting folks read the readme or the install instructions.  What it IS about is removing frequently asked questions (FAQs) from clogging up the support section.  Also it is about cluing folks on the new features, bugs that have been resolved and so on and so on.

[DoctaSax]

I do think dagoba's had some experience providing support for AAF... Let's keep it friendly, guys. Like I said earlier, It's  just another thing people will choose to fall out about because that's what we do, isn't it.

 

Me, I rather prefer people read my descriptions. Then again, I usually make overly complicated nonsense, and actually reading the description doesn't help them entirely either

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, DoctaSax said:

Me, I rather prefer people read my descriptions. Then again, I usually make overly complicated nonsense, and actually reading the description doesn't help them entirely either

Makes me wonder what the description will be for modpaks with a shitload of mods together. How the fuck are they gonna explain all that shit? Oh! That's right......they won't- it'll be a surprise! 

 

If modpaks have been done before and didn't work out, then why does anyone think they'll work better now? Just seems like an angle to me. Keep the users in the dark more so you can wedge a crowbar in their wallet later sort of thing.

[dagobaking]

4 hours ago, gregathit said:

I've debated someone's ideas.  I've not insulted them.  Are you 18?  This is an adult site you know.  We can have frank conversations here.  If you can't handle adults debating ideas, then perhaps you should stick to watching nickelodeon.

Wow. Where I'm from, you wouldn't have survived adolescence believing these are not insults.

4 hours ago, gregathit said:

... blah blah blah ... insult ... blah blah ... simple flailing ... blah ... hissy fit ... blah blah ... childish arguments ...

I guess I was just mistaken about what constitutes civil debate on this site. I can act in kind and do not mind doing so.

 

I really don't give two shits what your opinion is on the subject. Others have argued against mod-packs much more intelligently so are more constructive to address. I'm just glad that these systems appear to be being built and am curious to see how they turn out.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I mopped the floor with your ideas and the above exchange demonstrates it for anyone trying to be objective and/or has the intellectual courage to second-guess the initial "side" they chose. Call it condescending if you like. But, the dick-waving party going on before I put in my (apparently upsetting) 10 cents speaks for itself.

3 hours ago, DoctaSax said:

I do think dagoba's had some experience providing support for AAF... Let's keep it friendly, guys. Like I said earlier, It's  just another thing people will choose to fall out about because that's what we do, isn't it.

 

Me, I rather prefer people read my descriptions. Then again, I usually make overly complicated nonsense, and actually reading the description doesn't help them entirely either

I appreciate this. And I think that my earlier input shows a default toward civility. However, at some point, I'm not going to just take insults without defending myself in kind.

[winny257]

I personally do not need mod packs, because to the first: I do not that wants to use what others me keep in front of my nose!
second: I want to modify my own game even if it can become a cramp.
third: Mod authors work very long on their mods, then comes such a bum and packs everything in mod packs, what happens then is obvious, nobody will download the original mods and the mod authors support!

 

some come up with ideas, which are not really sustainable, but that's just my opinion! 

[KoolHndLuke]

2 hours ago, winny257 said:

I personally do not need mod packs, because to the first: I do not that wants to use what others me keep in front of my nose!
second: I want to modify my own game even if it can become a cramp.
third: Mod authors work very long on their mods, then comes such a bum and packs everything in mod packs, what happens then is obvious, nobody will download the original mods and the mod authors support!

 

some come up with ideas, which are not really sustainable, but that's just my opinion! 

It'll blow over after a few months. I swear if Nexus pulls much more shit, I'm thinking of closing my account there. They've already banned several of my good friends for silly fuckin' rule violations.

[winny257]

42 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

It'll blow over after a few months. I swear if Nexus pulls much more shit, I'm thinking of closing my account there. They've already banned several of my good friends for silly fuckin' rule violations.

Whom you say that, you will me on Nexus not find, at least not more officially!
There the staff is very fast with banishments, it is enough to say justified criticism of Nexus!
Now I'm untouchable for Nexus, they can never banish me again. 

[Holzfrau]

6 hours ago, winny257 said:

third: Mod authors work very long on their mods, then comes such a bum and packs everything in mod packs, what happens then is obvious, nobody will download the original mods and the mod authors support!

This is not how the new systems like Automaton and Wabbajack work.  The mod "packs" these programs use are mod lists with installation instructions for each mod, which the programs automate as much as possible.  Each mod is still downloaded from its usual source (Nexusmods in most cases).  This does mean fewer people visiting the original mod page, but Wabbajack is getting a slideshow feature which is supposed to help that issue.

 

The direction the modding scene is moving isn't really toward "mod packs", which are traditionally bundles of mods distributed together, it's toward automated downloading and installation.  Calling them something like "automated mod lists" is more accurate.

[winny257]

29 minutes ago, Holzfrau said:

This is not how the new systems like Automaton and Wabbajack work.  The mod "packs" these programs use are mod lists with installation instructions for each mod, which the programs automate as much as possible.  Each mod is still downloaded from its usual source (Nexusmods in most cases).  This does mean fewer people visiting the original mod page, but Wabbajack is getting a slideshow feature which is supposed to help that issue.

 

The direction the modding scene is moving isn't really toward "mod packs", which are traditionally bundles of mods distributed together, it's toward automated downloading and installation.  Calling them something like "automated mod lists" is more accurate.

I understand, but what if I do not want some of these mods from this list?
what happens then, become all other mods unplayable?
I personally do not like mods which demands a huge requirement.
around to use a mod, three, four or more, other mods need to be installed, so that only this a mod works.
that, what you have described are not mod packs, they are just simple lists for me, which mods need to be downloaded.
for me is a mod pack, very many mods which are combined in an ESP!

[Holzfrau]

20 minutes ago, winny257 said:

I understand, but what if I do not want some of these mods from this list?
what happens then, become all other mods unplayable?

As far as I know, the automated installers can only do the entire mod list, not pick and choose.  If you didn't want all the mods in a list, you'd just have to do it the same way you always have, downloading and installing the mods you want manually.

[Voldearag]

To the recurring sentiment "Yeah right who's gonna offer support for modpacks? They'll break down and users won't be able to fix it" I should say that at least in the case of Ultimate Skyrim, Belmont Boy offers that support. Ultimate Skyrim was just a greater Requiem version of a STEP-like guide for the majority of its lifetime, the tool Automaton and Nexusmods' bulk download feature are just the newest perks of an install guide that's been kindly maintained updated and supported for ages now. Belmonts made loads of video tutorials to help out users confused by his tutorials, and he seems to reply to every commenter who asks for help, he's always answered me.

[winny257]

2 hours ago, Alkpaz said:

Learn to Xedit?  I've deleted things from mods I didn't like by just using xedit. I've even replaced forms of mods doing it this way. It takes time, however, and a lot of trial and error. But, it can be done. Just look at what Steve has accomplished just by using xedit: 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1326995133 a 1,400 mod loadout for Oldrim.  Granted this took hundreds of hours to do, and probably more hair pulling than I would be used to, but it is possible. Just takes "desire".  

 

hee, if you me now also still explain how that all works, but do not forget, I have no English skills!
if you have explained everything to me, if you should ever create this, then you do not just lose a few hairs, then you have 100% a bald head. 

[winny257]

51 minutes ago, Voldearag said:

To the recurring sentiment "Yeah right who's gonna offer support for modpacks? They'll break down and users won't be able to fix it" I should say that at least in the case of Ultimate Skyrim, Belmont Boy offers that support. Ultimate Skyrim was just a greater Requiem version of a STEP-like guide for the majority of its lifetime, the tool Automaton and Nexusmods' bulk download feature are just the newest perks of an install guide that's been kindly maintained updated and supported for ages now. Belmonts made loads of video tutorials to help out users confused by his tutorials, and he seems to reply to every commenter who asks for help, he's always answered me.

very funny, what do you think I understand in these videos?
There are a lot of people who do not understand English for a word, especially the elderly, who had no possibility this machine computer language to learn. 

[gregathit]

17 hours ago, dagobaking said:

Wow. Where I'm from, you wouldn't have survived adolescence believing these are not insults.

I guess I was just mistaken about what constitutes civil debate on this site.

You've been mistaken this whole time, so what is new?

17 hours ago, dagobaking said:

I really don't give two shits what your opinion is on the subject. Others have argued against mod-packs much more intelligently so are more constructive to address.

LOL!  And guess what my take on your opinions is...ROFL!!!  I'm glad you recognize that others have come up with intelligent arguments.  You certainly have not.  Not in one single instance have you provided any evidence or logical reasoning.  But hey, I'm guessing you're one of those feelings over facts types.  Best of luck with that.

17 hours ago, dagobaking said:

As far as I'm concerned, I mopped the floor with your ideas and the above exchange demonstrates it for anyone trying to be objective and/or has the intellectual courage to second-guess the initial "side" they chose. Call it condescending if you like. But, the dick-waving party going on before I put in my (apparently upsetting) 10 cents speaks for itself.

Of course you would think that.  ROFL!!!  I've provided examples (oblivion and AIO's as well as others) and what have you provided?  Red herrings, straw-men and yelling squirrel.  Debates are all about challenging ideas.  If someone can come up with a logical and reasonable argument, especially if they back it with evidence, heck I'll be the first to admit I was wrong and change my stance.  It has happened several times on this forum.  However, nothing you've said yet comes close.  Zero logical arguments, zero evidence, zero anything but nonsensical statements.  Like this one:

On 9/29/2019 at 1:38 AM, dagobaking said:

You can learn how to make a window without someone throwing rocks through the ones you have on your house.

Yep, this is your normal response.  Can anyone connect the dots here?  I sure as hell can't.  It had nothing to do with anything I said.  If this is your version of mopping the floor with me, well.................I'm not sure how to break it to you that it isn't working.  So get butthurt if you must, but debating clearly isn't in your wheelhouse.  I'd recommend you stick to whatever it is that you are good at.  You'll be happier and look less silly.