Mod Packs- Another Look

[KoolHndLuke]

So I see BigBizkit (admin) has launched a poll to get opinions on mod packs. Isn't this the very thing that authors were railing against not too long ago? I guess the reason is because where it was being done did not ask anyone's permission. Still, wouldn't mod packs (packages of mods known to work together without conflicts and compliment each other in one easy download) sort of reinforce the mod theft that already occurs? I mean if they start offering packages, then everyone on the net will start uploading packages- throwing whatever fuckin mods they want into them because "hey, Nexus is doing it too!". I'm not sure if this is a good idea. What do you think?

[Mr. Otaku]

Mod packs can be helpful for beginner users who just want a small amount of mods for their games that run efficiently, i doubt it is of any help to people that wanna invest more and more time into modding and learn how to troubleshoot issues and do heavy amounts of mod management. As for the theft issue, i don't know really, theft or unauthorised posting/usage is done regardless, and i think the ones that do won't feel any significant benefit in mod packs since a lot of them package mods together and distribute them by themselves.

 

Where's this poll by the way?

[27X]

BigBizkit doesn't give a shit about mod authors other than hyping the hype for nexus as the defacto idiots and their money are parted.com, as mods go away and only certified™ mod providers™ are monetarily authorized™ to provide authorized™ mods™ for just the lowly price of give me all your fucking money™ per month™:

 

I'm sure this was entirely coincidental to three large franchise games launching that will probably also coincidentally receive vortex support completely coincidentally.

 

also case in point:

https://www.patreon.com/Belmont_Boy

 

The smart play here is Belmont only communicates via reddit and his personal discord, so anybody who doesn't want their mod used thusly just for some reason can't seem to get in contact with him to get him to remove their mods from his list. Of shit he's never created. 3K a month for a text file. Lazy ass vulture capitalism at its finest.

[gregathit]

The reasons against mod packs are pretty obvious:

1. Who is going to fix all the conflicts in the mod pack to begin with?

2. Who is going to get permission from all the mod authors?

3. Who is going to update the mod pack every time one of the mods is updated (or stops working because the game updated)?

4. Who is going to choose what mods go into the pack and what are they going to do when folks complain about this being in instead of that?

5. Who is going to provide support for those who can't even install a freaking mod pack?

 

Sounds like a full time job and absolutely no fun at all!

[KoolHndLuke]

2 hours ago, Mr.Otaku said:

Where's this poll by the way?

For MAs when you log in over there it gives a link. As far as the easiness of install of a mod pack, I'm not seeing it at all. But, then I know how to install my mods easily anyway.

 

2 hours ago, 27X said:

BigBizkit doesn't give a shit about mod authors other than hyping the hype for nexus as the defacto idiots and their money are parted.com, as mods go away and only certified™ mod providers™ are monetarily authorized™ to provide authorized™ mods™ for just the lowly price of give me all your fucking money™ per month™:

 

I'm sure this was entirely coincidental to three large franchise games launching that will probably also coincidentally receive vortex support completely coincidentally.

 

also case in point:

https://www.patreon.com/Belmont_Boy

 

The smart play here is Belmont only communicates via reddit and his personal discord, so anybody who doesn't want their mod used thusly just for some reason can't seem to get in contact with him to get him to remove their mods from his list. Of shit he's never created. 3K a month for a text file. Lazy ass vulture capitalism at its finest.

Vortex handles mod packs? I saw someone else do it through MO in a vid and it looked rather complicated.

 

47 minutes ago, gregathit said:

The reasons against mod packs are pretty obvious:

1. Who is going to fix all the conflicts in the mod pack to begin with?

2. Who is going to get permission from all the mod authors?

3. Who is going to update the mod pack every time one of the mods is updated (or stops working because the game updated)?

4. Who is going to choose what mods go into the pack and what are they going to do when folks complain about this being in instead of that?

5. Who is going to provide support for those who can't even install a freaking mod pack?

 

Sounds like a full time job and absolutely no fun at all!

Well, like 27X said, for thirty grand a year I would compile/maintain mod packs (provided I suddenly didn't have a conscience). I know I've asked about mods being public domain in the past, but I do think that the mod's creator should have control over their mod and what it might be used in/for. Mods with open permissions (which I love!) are fair game though.

 

 I would never make/install a mod pack for most of the reasons you listed. Besides, I shy away from LARGE installs in my game such as super-mods (mod packs made by one author with all their stuff) because of how much it will change. I like stand-alone for this reason whenever it's available or individual mods that add a bit of content at a time.

[Mr. Otaku]

30 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

For MAs when you log in over there it gives a link. As far as the easiness of install of a mod pack, I'm not seeing it at all. But, then I know how to install my mods easily anyway.

I see. Overall i don't see mod packs as a worthwhile.

[DoctaSax]

Technically, the idea is probably not that you install a pack containing the mods, but subscribe to a list (comparable to S.TE.P.) and then Vortex will download and install it all for you. The mods themselves remain separate, avoiding wrangling over copyright and permission (unless they add another box to the perms tab). So it's most likely not exactly a pack at all, merely an automated install process. There are still things you can have against that ofc - people are already not reading the OP, this only makes that worse, imo.

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, DoctaSax said:

Technically, the idea is probably not that you install a pack containing the mods, but subscribe to a list (comparable to S.TE.P.) and then Vortex will download and install it all for you. The mods themselves remain separate, avoiding wrangling over copyright and permission (unless they add another box to the perms tab). So it's most likely not exactly a pack at all, merely an automated install process. There are still things you can have against that ofc - people are already not reading the OP, this only makes that worse, imo.

That does make more sense. Like you say though is that the problem of users not reading shit and not knowing what they're getting into would be compounded by a whole slew of mods installed for them......and them adding individual mods to the mix later. I don't see it working tbh. People need to know more about their games and how they work- not less.

 

This overhaul and long, detailed ini I just changed for Oblivion is a good example. I just got through going over it and making the changes I wanted and now I have to test. If people can't be bothered to read a few paragraphs, then they'll be absolutely lost with mod packs.

 

I proposed an alternative idea one time (that was ignored) where mods are classified according to their complexity (ease of install/use) and their potential for causing conflicts with other mods. I still think it's a good one. The problem with this is that many mod makers have different ways of doing things- which would make their mods difficult to classify without a better system of doing things.

[Adviser69]

From the looks of the documentation over at Nexus, it seems that these "modpacks" will be handled in a way the modpacks for more updated Minecraft versions are after Twitch took over Curseforge; with a profile list that draws on a download repository. Now with MC the modpacks are premade. But since Nexus has a management program in house, chances are this profile list will have a string of MM download functions set up to draw from the Mod Manager download link of each individual mod page, possibly with multiple downloads running at the same time depending on user status, bandwidth allocation and the user's own connectivity. That's one guess at least.

My other guess is the creation of a new download tab that can be opt-in for the mod authors, and this tab is specifically for downloading the mod for a certain pack.

[KoolHndLuke]

30 minutes ago, Adviser69 said:

My other guess is the creation of a new download tab that can be opt-in for the mod authors, and this tab is specifically for downloading the mod for a certain pack.

I guessed this as well. But who would determine what goes in which mod pack? Nope. Bad idea because of too many complications. If mods- in how they're made, free of errors, type of mod or what they changed and how they changed it, etc- followed more of a singular, streamlined design then maybe. But mods are anything but and more akin to a potpourri of different approaches by people with wildly varying skill levels. I agree with Gregathit that it would be a fuckin' nightmare to sort out.

[Adviser69]

4 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I guessed this as well. But who would determine what goes in which mod pack? Nope. Bad idea because of too many complications. If mods- in how they're made, free of errors, type of mod or what they changed and how they changed it, etc- followed more of a singular, streamlined design then maybe. But mods are anything but and more akin to a potpourri of different approaches by people with wildly varying skill levels. Like Gregathit said, it would be a fuckin nightmare to sort out.

Oh, no doubt. I was simple speculating on the current mindset of the Nexus admin, but in reality, the logistics of trying to implement such a system are near beyond surreal. With the immense size and complexity of just the back catalog of mods for dozens of games, not to mention the dozens if not hundreds of mods that are submitted every day, even if you did have the go ahead of every single mod author, to get them streamlined and verified so that they are suitable for a modpack without outside program support is a pipe dream. I say this as both an avid user and an author.

[DoctaSax]

I'm guessing anyone who wants to will be able to draft the config file for any 'mod pack'.

Notes from the survey:

Quote

A few key points to note:

* We are not set on the name "mod packs" though, in the context of this survey, we will be referring to the system as such.

* Our "mod pack" system will NOT allow users to pack / zip up various mods from other authors into one download.

* A "mod pack" would be closer to e.g. a configuration file that will prompt the download of a number of mods (depending on the mod pack) and automatically install them thereafter.

* It would be akin to various “mod lists” compiled by users (such as STEP, GEMS etc.) complete with instructions regarding the mod setup - only that the process of setting the mods up would be streamlined and automated - where possible.

* The idea is to preserve the exact (or as close to it as possible) mod setup the mod pack author had created locally on their machine including mod (installer) options, file conflict resolution, load order rules etc.

 

One thing's for sure: they'll have to come up with a different name for the feature than 'mod pack'. Sets up all kinds of alarms for many people, and causes a bunch of misunderstandings about how it'll work.

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, DoctaSax said:

I'm guessing anyone who wants to will be able to draft the config file for any 'mod pack'.

Notes from the survey:

 

One thing's for sure: they'll have to come up with a different name for the feature than 'mod pack'. Sets up all kinds of alarms for many people, and causes a bunch of misunderstandings about how it'll work.

It could work I guess. Still sounds like a cluster-fuck to me, though- especially when something goes wrong. Every seasoned modder knows that you don't install "a-whole-buncha" mods at one time and expect things to go smoothly. These "mod packs" or whatever they want to call them are just another way of dumbing things down for the casual user.......and that very notion irritates me. I would like to see someone put together some LL mod packs since some of these ain't your plug and play type. 

[Zoey McKenzie]

I would love to see mod packs.

 

But it would have to be done in a similar manner to Curse Forge for Minecraft.

Where, by uploading your mod, you automatically agree that your mod can be included in a mod pack.

 

However, when you share a mod pack.

You don't actually share the mods. Just the meta data. ( As well as config overrides, and other overrides files. )

And Curse / Twitch Launcher will automatically download all the mods, and install it.

 

 

While Steam Workshop for Skyrim SE, does have a similar functionality, called Collections.

It's less of a modpack, and more just a collection of mods. Hence the name.

 

But I do think Nexus could implement modpacks fairly easy if they really wanted too. All the infrastructure is there. Just a matter of making a Mod Manager that can handle it.

And possibly update the terms of service.

[Kendo 2]

Story Time:

Years ago I made a quest mod for Oblivion.  I used various 'free to use, no need for permissions' clothing and armor mods and built my esp using their original file paths.  When I uploaded I linked all of the mods I used and I didn't repackage any of their content; those mods were required for my mod to work and users had to download them.

 

In my ReadMe I stated 'These are the mods I used and when you download them be sure to leave a comment and give a like. Let's support the modders, blah-blah-blah.'  I also made my mod free to use/no permissions; in the spirit of sharing.  The modding scene was like that back then.

 

Within two days some rando asshole took my mod and all of the mods I used.  He created a FOMOD file and an installer, not only circumventing me and my mod, but the dozen or so other mods and mod authors.  People stopped downloading my mod and all of the mods it depended on and only downloaded his version.  What he did was create a mod pack.  It was his only upload, he didn't know how to mod or provide mod support.  All he knew how to do was package files in a manager and upload them.  A no-talent douche took things he didn't create and pretended it was all his idea.

 

The End

 

Note this was before Patreon mod whoring and the 'pay me to do what others do for free' mentality was allowed to fester on this site.  Just imagine the bottom feeders rising up and taking a big bite out of modding once they get the green light to not only charge for mods, but charge for mods they didn't make.  No idea who 'BigBizkit' is and I don't care.  From what I've read here he's a greedy scumfuck if he thinks mod packs are a good idea.  And just an FYI, Dork0ne liked the idea of mod packs until the modders tore him a new asshole for suggesting it.  Why people think surrendering creative control of their content to corporations like Steam or Bethesda is a win is a fucking mystery.  Giving control to some slimy shopkeeper like Dork0ne is a joke.  But people will do it because they're sheep.

[D_ManXX2]

Kendo you forgot to mentioned all those mod users came to you with complaints why your mods where not working as intended seem the mod author of the modpacks creating it pack with different version causing more problems in the end for original mod authors..

[Guest]

This has never been well seen by any creators who have a little bit of self-esteem.

This has always existed but we arrive at a generalization, and practically the industrialization of the rottenness. It becomes the norm thanks to the help of site like nexus which cummulates all the users with the broken arms and the left hands of our dear world.
Bravo, nice shot, they will all be willing to pay if they do not have to learn anything, if they can continue to complain about "bugs" and shit about the authors because of their ignorance ..
Also it's open doors to the open bar for more guys to do like the belmont guy... 

 

The best thing to do, use our right of withdrawal and our right to make a strike.
Do not give any help, do not update anything and let the modding scene dry, when they will not have anything interesting anymore, the modpacks will have no more interest.
You make a mod for you, for fun, keep it for you, do not share.
You have talent? Move away from these communities, Do something else and pay attention to who you give it to.

 

And when the 1% of creators around these communities will stop and will not want to feed the 99% of people.
They will understand, maybe.

[Psalam]

11 minutes ago, komotor said:

This has never been well seen by any creators who have a little bit of self-esteem.

This has always existed but we arrive at a generalization, and practically the industrialization of the rottenness. It becomes the norm thanks to the help of site like nexus which cummulates all the users with the broken arms and the left hands of our dear world.
Bravo, nice shot, they will all be willing to pay if they do not have to learn anything, if they can continue to complain about "bugs" and shit about the authors because of their ignorance ..
Also it's open doors to the open bar for more guys to do like the belmont guy... 

 

The best thing to do, use our right of withdrawal and our right to make a strike.
Do not give any help, do not update anything and let the modding scene dry, when they will not have anything interesting anymore, the modpacks will have no more interest.
You make a mod for you, for fun, keep it for you, do not share.
You have talent? Move away from these communities, Do something else and pay attention to who you give it to.

 

And when the 1% of creators around these communities will stop and will not want to feed the 99% of people.
They will understand, maybe.

Who is John Galt?

[t.ara]

Pump up your mod content to be very much not working for such a pack !!!! Pump it !!!

[Kendo 2]

One reason why site owners should be wary of mod packs is add revenue.

 

If I make a mod that requires 4 others to work that's 5 hits on the site.  A mod pack with my mod and the 4 required's is one hit.  At net20's that mod pack just robbed the site of 80 cents.  Spread over thousands of views that's a big chunk of revenue that just got flushed down the toilet for the sake of 'convenience'.

 

EDIT: And if Nexus is considering mod packs then Dork0ne is running an angle...and that angle is green and smells like a wallet.  Guaranteed he has scheme to bilk modders out of their creations to fund his next Mediterranean island vacation.

[KoolHndLuke]

This subject sort of brings into focus another thing about modding that I love......and that is open permissions on mods. I fuckin' love that I can go back and look at Oblivion mods and maybe use some things from them since they are open sourced. But, I can also see why everyone moved away from that since the goddamn thieving, no-talent hacks came in and shamelessly snatched up some free mods, packaged them together and passed it off as their own- while giving no mention or thanks to the original mod author.

 

It happens to everything that is shared freely. Some POS (or many of them) will come along and fuck it up for everyone. You'd think that might not be the case where there is no money involved (mostly). Evidently some just do it for the recognition and don't care that they are helping to destroy the entire modding scene! So fuck you very much to all the assholes that have taken yet another beautiful thing (free, open-source mods) and dumping trash all over it and turning it to shit! 

[Rayblue]

Welp. 

 

[27X]

46 minutes ago, Rayblue said:

Welp. 

 

 

Y'all thought I was kidding about Belmont boy I guess? He literally dodges DMCA notices. But hey paid mods is a wondrous candyland of unlimited possibilities. :960eyeroll:

[Rayblue]

Lmao Belmont. Goddamn, the drama at that forum is fucking off the scale, some are even packing up to go to Beth.net just because the Englishman "not friendly" to them anymore.

 

Honestly, in either side of the coin there are those nutcases.

[KoolHndLuke]

Reading more about this and I still come to the same conclusion; It won't work. Why? I was putting together a sort of mod pack for a friend that has released a little more than half a dozen clothing mods. I was simply doing it as a favor for him since he doesn't have a good internet connection and I like his clothing mods.....and I kinda wanted to learn from making it. I'm the kind that don't give a fuck about recognition. I feel I should just offer it to the original author because I feel that is right- I didn't make the mods. I'm just packaging them together in one download. All I want is a thanks.

 

But, the point I'm trying to make is that just combining these six or seven clothing mods together in an organized, bug-free, presentable way required quite a bit more work than I expected. In fact, I never finished it because I didn't like the quality of some of the meshes and textures. Plus, I wanted to change how some outfits worked as far as their slots on the body. Plus, there were inconsistencies between the older and newer mods that needed ironing out. Now, had I not cared and was just looking for some recognition, then I would have uploaded a piece of shit and just ignored all the user complaints that would have followed.

But, I do care.

 

Mod packs- even those from the same author- are not "easy" to make if you care anything about fixing bugs, compatibility, quality and many other considerations. And combining mods for mod packs from a number of different authors would require a lot of work TO GET IT RIGHT. These shameless fucks that are packaging mods most likely are NOT going to the trouble I did to ensure that the end user gets a quality, functioning product- and some of them are making a decent amount of money for their shit.

 

So, I'm saying that users should really only trust "mod packs" from the authors themselves- or at least with their explicit approval (and support). Anything else is all kinds of fucked up most likely and you should stay the fuck away from it!

 

Another way to explain it is this; Do you want to pay for a government "cookie cutter" house if you have the money or do you want to pick and choose as many of the materials, components, and styles for your house as you possibly can? That is the difference between downloading individual mods........ and "mod packs"- assuming they are even made with care in the first place.