Are Mods that Good or are Games that Bad?

[wokking56]

6 hours ago, Captain Cobra said:

Yeah, the time gap between Morrowind and Skyrim is about 210 or so years.

I knew the 3000 number had to wrong, yet that makes my statement about how they (Daedra) being missing and forgotten all the more incredible.

 

[Mr. Otaku]

30 minutes ago, wokking56 said:

I knew the 3000 number had to wrong, yet that makes my statement about how they (Daedra) being missing and forgotten all the more incredible.

Could the events of Oblivion be the reason for it? I mean, they were kinda kicked out and stuff so maybe the daedra can't show up as easily as before? I don't know i'm just spilling hairs here i guess. My Oblivion knowledge is fairly foggy as i didn't get to spend much time with the game.

[theboringforeigner]

There's a reason I buy new games rarely at best. The industry has changed by becoming... Well, an industry. Back when I was a kid playing games in the early 90's we were in the midst of the "console wars" where it seemed like every month a new console was being released because that's where the focus was in the minds of the companies releasing them. This was obviously ridiculous, as most people at that time and even today don't want to own 9 different consoles. They want one, maybe 2 at most. Generally.

 

However what was good about that time is that since the corporate greed was focused on manufacturing the console with the most bits game developers were freer in the development of their titles so long as they were able to visually showcase the power of whatever console they were being released on. AVGN (The Angry Video Game Nerd) has a great video on this... Nostalgia shades are always warm-tinted so it's easy to just say "yeah you're just saying that because that was your introduction to gaming" but it is true that while games today are MASSIVELY superior in content to games from the past the charm, attention to detail, heart, and soul of today's titles pales in comparison to games released in the 90's. It's no wonder why some of the best games ever released were "go for broke this is our last title, fuck it guys, do whatever." such as Final Fantasy and Morrowind.

 

How does this relate to modding? Well, modding allows us to handcraft games the way we see fit, thusly adding back that lost charm, attention to detail, heart, and soul. Skyrim was cool for a while but you know what's really cool? My medieval sex simulator with flying trains and dildo arrows game set in some place called Skyrim or whatever.

[landess]

Oblivion was the first Beth game I added mods to, but it never felt 'right'. I like sexy, but most didn't even try to match materials, etc. so instead of being just 'not lore friendly' they were more of Shockingly Out of Place.

 

Lately I think modmakers 'get it'. Using the textures from the game or trying to keep things in a certain 'palette'.

 

This is why I get such a kick from the Sims 3 - create a style allows retexturing just about anything in the game, so making clothing and furniture, hell anything able to be taken into CAS a lot more fun to theme. 80's disco - no problem. 90's grunge - no problem....

[KoolHndLuke]

I was reading last night that modern games are usually coded using several programming languages. C++ for some aspects, Java and maybe Python for others. I wonder if games have become too technically challenging for devs to be able to focus on anything but making a working game anymore? There was a time when they had to release a finished product because there were no post release patches they could do. Now, they either take for granted that they can patch things later or they just don't have the time to get all they want done before a deadline. Obviously some are just milking the market with tired cliches and minimal effort on their part. But what if it's just that hard to make a brand new game nowadays?

[RW311]

On 2/11/2020 at 1:40 PM, KoolHndLuke said:

I was reading last night that modern games are usually coded using several programming languages. C++ for some aspects, Java and maybe Python for others. I wonder if games have become too technically challenging for devs to be able to focus on anything but making a working game anymore? There was a time when they had to release a finished product because there were no post release patches they could do. Now, they either take for granted that they can patch things later or they just don't have the time to get all they want done before a deadline. Obviously some are just milking the market with tired cliches and minimal effort on their part. But what if it's just that hard to make a brand new game nowadays?

 

Likely has more to do with licensing deals than technical challenges. The amount of initial investment required.. so convincing an investor or these days even the company itself that releasing this software and the development tools used, especially if you don't own the tools... it's not going to be what they care about. Does it add value and how much is this going to add to profit in the first year? This is what they want to know, and it's a risk to add that cost to the package with no guarantee of return.

Bethesda got lucky with it, but doesn't understand what they did. Modding tools are free marketing especially if it takes off on you but you can't quantify the results so the money people don't understand it.  It's no different than any other business, do you build a good reputation and provide quality service even if you lose money sometimes or do you always focus on the quarterly report? For me it's always been more important to keep a reputable business but I don't have to answer to anyone if I lose money on a deal so I can't  judge the rest them if they have to do it the other way and I don't make games so I've never had to deal with a massive and fluctuating payroll like that.

 

[winny257]

all complain about Bethesda, but what about the newest star in the sky "CDPR"?
this company gets a thumbs down from me!

 

Reason: The Witcher 1 unplayable, The Witcher 2 unplayable and that to a high degree!
both games had to be completely new revised, for this reason I had to buy both games twice!
I know that both remastered versions were available for free download, but this did not apply to people without an internet connection.
CDPR has earned a golden nose with this campaign! 

[RitualClarity]

48 minutes ago, winny257 said:

all complain about Bethesda, but what about the newest star in the sky "CDPR"?
this company gets a thumbs down from me!

 

Reason: The Witcher 1 unplayable, The Witcher 2 unplayable and that to a high degree!
both games had to be completely new revised, for this reason I had to buy both games twice!
I know that both remastered versions were available for free download, but this did not apply to people without an internet connection.
CDPR has earned a golden nose with this campaign! 

they aren't in the same category as Bethesda. They created Witcher 1 almost from scratch, their first real release... Bethesda? dozens and dozens of releases. Witcher 2 .. there second major release and yes, it was a crapfest but it shown a great improvement over the previous edition. Same with Witcher 3 which won countless awards. So in Three major releases they go from new to Pro.. This doesn't compare to Bethesda at all. They were the Sweetheart of the industry with multiple GOTY games. They practically couldn't miss. Did they take it farther? Did they improve on their formula?  No, they started downgrading their RPG elements, what they were famous for. They stuck with an outdated engine and the same bugs game after game.

 

Yes, CDPR isn't perfect, and has tons of issues and crap that they have to deal with but... so far, they seem to be fixing things and improving.  Cyberpunk game will be another chance to show if they are still on that trend or not and going the way of the industry.  I can't compare them to Bethesda or other major companies as it isn't fair considering how new they are (in regards to content created and IP owned)  Also the fact they have continuously show they try to fix and improve.  The better companies would be similar companies with similar creations and IP ownership.

 

A year ago, I was on the CDPR fan boat.. but with some changes and such going on I am concerned they are moving toward the mainstream business practices. If this does happen, I will be in line to give the company as much shit as I do the others when they fuck up.  The measure of this is their current practices with their previous ones.  For example if Betheda actually started really putting back in RPG elements they were famous for for the next TES release (on par with Morrowind or at least Oblivion) and worked on fit and finish like they had previously, I would give them praise. Not enough and a bit late but a step in the right direction. In CDPR catagory, I'd measure up the fit and finish of the game, their practices (DLC, paid content etc) and  story content etc to their previous releases. If it measures up to (minimum) or surpasses it (desired) then I would give them praise. I don't need to like the game. I could even hate the game play and setup. That doesn't negate their work, quality and attention to details along with proper non-predatory business practices. These features can be viewed easily enough and have measurable features for proper evaluation.

 

@winny257 I am however, on your boat in that CDPR is likely to come short of expectation, short of previous quality released and essentially show no actual growth. This would be a shame.

[landess]

8 hours ago, RitualClarity said:

Three major releases they go from new to Pro

And our joy is recognized by those we fear the most, because like any good parasite, the corporate interest has noticed. Enter Netflix, which appears, like CDPR to care at the moment. The Author of the books sees $$$$$$ and goes insane because the games success was beyond any expectation.

 

I used a mod or 2 on the 1st Witcher, just to make it a bit more playable, and WAS able to finish it. The second I never did. Purchased the GOTY version of 3 after I KNEW it wasn't a hot mess. Agree it was an outstanding offering. I worry The Witcher will fall into the 'Assassin's Creed Trap', Although UBI has upped their game recently, perhaps that wouldn't be the worst thing to happen.

 

I wish there was a statistic which showed the % of players whom used mods vs those whom play it straight. Who mods Zelda? Who mods Skyrim? Then one can get a better take on what might ACTUALLY make certain games more popular regardless of corporation presence and player 'blinders'.

[RitualClarity]

42 minutes ago, landess said:

And our joy is recognized by those we fear the most, because like any good parasite, the corporate interest has noticed. Enter Netflix, which appears, like CDPR to care at the moment. The Author of the books sees $$$$$$ and goes insane because the games success was beyond any expectation.

 

I used a mod or 2 on the 1st Witcher, just to make it a bit more playable, and WAS able to finish it. The second I never did. Purchased the GOTY version of 3 after I KNEW it wasn't a hot mess. Agree it was an outstanding offering. I worry The Witcher will fall into the 'Assassin's Creed Trap', Although UBI has upped their game recently, perhaps that wouldn't be the worst thing to happen.

 

I wish there was a statistic which showed the % of players whom used mods vs those whom play it straight. Who mods Zelda? Who mods Skyrim? Then one can get a better take on what might ACTUALLY make certain games more popular regardless of corporation presence and player 'blinders'.

That is my worry that they (CDPR) will go the way of others as they gain fame and fortune and forget where they came from.  I knew that the other Witchers were problematic but I bought them on sale once I discovered that I enjoyed Witcher 3 very much to support the studio. I am a late comer to Witcher as this type of game isn't what gets my juices running normally.

 

If there was stats, lets face it, Bethesda games (TES Fallout) would have the highest portion of the pie. I can't see anyone, except those playing on an xbox (previous editions) not using at least a few visual mods.

 

As for Witcher 3, sure there was a few mods that I might like to have, I used the command a few times after several play though to add some spice to the game but in general it was playable from day one without much if any improvements through mods. Of course this is my opinion.

 

 

LOL

[FauxFurry]

On 2/13/2020 at 5:26 PM, landess said:

I wish there was a statistic which showed the % of players whom used mods vs those whom play it straight. Who mods Zelda? Who mods Skyrim? Then one can get a better take on what might ACTUALLY make certain games more popular regardless of corporation presence and player 'blinders'.

An easy to use method of figuring out a rough percentage of players who use mods would be collecting the results of simple polls made available on official company sites, fan sites and well trafficked gaming news sites and game download services such as Steam, Good Old Games, Origin, UPlay and even Epic Launcher.

Of course, that would only account for those who bother answering or notice the things regardless of how flashy they were made specifically to catch the eye when glimpsed from the corners of said eyes or even if their colors are so vibrant as to be visible through shut eyelids.

[NickNozownik]

I mod games that are worth modding in order to make them even better and remove dumb restrictions. Like CK2 for example, it will randomly decide that your character is too good so it removes positive traits such as brave or diligent, or your character gets robbed because you have too much gold.

You can switch characters mid game and play as the emperor of the HRE, but when you switch to the pope it's UH OH, OH SHIT, IT'S THEOCRACY MAN GAME OVER, YOU CAN'T DO THAT :((((99((( :sadfaic;

 

Other games such as Assault Squad 2 have a shitload of potential, but lazy devs prefer to use the same assets over and over again. They added Japan in a patch long time ago, while modders added like 7 more nations plus a lot of new vehicles, all with custom textures, models, sounds, effects and voices in a single mod. Imagine devs doing that. Humanity would be extinct by the time they're done.

 

There's also Skyrim. Modding it proves that polishing a turd can make it better. Kinda. Sometimes. To a certain degree.

[KoolHndLuke]

With the release of some much anticipated games on the horizon, I think about this subject. What makes a good game? Only two criteria come to mind as essential:

 

Is it interesting? And more importantly, does it hold the player's interest? 

 

 Recently I finished The Last of Us. A few posts and the upcoming sequel sparked my curiosity. Soon, I was literally locked into this game as I could not tear myself away from it. I binged on it right to the end and what kept driving me was the writing plain and simple. The combat and other aspects were decent (if somewhat frustrating) for the most part and had the game been centered around it, it would have been just another survival game. But, the story was brilliant since it teased you and built things up as it should to the point of boiling with anticipation and emotion. I HATED my enemies and took much pleasure in each of their deaths for being the vile scum that they were. The ending did not disappoint, leaving a juicy controversial secret and wetting the player appetite for more. Please more!

 

Is it fun or satisfying?

 

No matter how good a story is, the gameplay itself needs to be fun and challenging. I remember reading an interview with one of the lead devs for Halo and his answer to what makes it fun to play. He said something like "What it basically comes down to is making each encounter in the game as fun as possible for those 30 secs or however long it lasts" and added "That is the core of the game". It's the sights, the sounds, the madness of each encounter that drives you to the next. Often have I read a thank you to game dev after a crazy, unique encounter that could happen no where else but in the game. Some would argue that this is more important that the story.....and I would have to agree given the many beloved games that have a very weak plot/characters.

 

If a game dev satisfies one of those two then they might have a good game. If they satisfy both, their game will be remembered for as long as there are gamers. 

[RitualClarity]

20 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

With the release of some much anticipated games on the horizon, I think about this subject. What makes a good game? Only two criteria come to mind as essential:

 

Is it interesting? And more importantly, does it hold the player's interest? 

 

 Recently I finished The Last of Us. A few posts and the upcoming sequel sparked my curiosity. Soon, I was literally locked into this game as I could not tear myself away from it. I binged on it right to the end and what kept driving me was the writing plain and simple. The combat and other aspects were decent (if somewhat frustrating) for the most part and had the game been centered around it, it would have been just another survival game. But, the story was brilliant since it teased you and built things up as it should to the point of boiling with anticipation and emotion. I HATED my enemies and took much pleasure in each of their deaths for being the vile scum that they were. The ending did not disappoint, leaving a juicy controversial secret and wetting the player appetite for more. Please more!

 

Is it fun or satisfying?

 

No matter how good a story is, the gameplay itself needs to be fun and challenging. I remember reading an interview with one of the lead devs for Halo and his answer to what makes it fun to play. He said something like "What it basically comes down to is making each encounter in the game as fun as possible for those 30 secs or however long it lasts" and added that "That is the core of the game". It's the sights, the sounds, the madness of each encounter that drives you to the next. Often have I read a thank you to game dev after a crazy, unique encounter that could happen no where else but in the game. Some would argue that this is more important that the story.....and I would have to agree given the many beloved games that have a very weak plot/characters.

 

If a game dev satisfies one of those two then they might have a good game. If they satisfy both, their game will be remembered for as long as there are gamers. 

Different strokes for different folks. that is the issue with game development. Trying to get the folks properly satisfied for a genre of games. While trying to get others included in that will enjoy, (perhaps not love) to raise the bottom line.

 

Replayablilty is a big thing for me. If you want the max $$$ from me (new purchase etc) I have to be able to see that I can replay it many, many times over. Mass Effect is such a game. Get board of it for awhile and then return a few years later to relive the game. Same for Witcher.

 

Gameplay. I have to have a vested interest in the characters and interactions and story. It has to make sense and follow logic .. it can be an illogical world but .. the rules must follow that worlds logic and it has to be believable while I am playing it. I believe it was suspension of belief.

 

Newest addition to my desires related to game play. I want to purchase from companies that are doing generally a good job. Treating their customers with respect and producing a reasonably polished game. Then work hard to finish the polish ASAP after release as possible. this is the company that I will generally not be concerned with the cost of the game (reasonable price) and purchase the game often times when it is new or at least newer. This is a rare situation for me as I haven't done that for a long time.  It only really applies to the newer games in this situation as older games pretty much stand on their own. If they have entertainment value and priced right, I will likely get them. Not a big deal to get a previous AAA game for 10 dollars to play one time through. If I am surprised and find it is great.. a few more play through etc it is just gravy. I still have to do my research or face having to kick myself in the ass for a stupid purchase   At this point, the game is pretty much done and polished as much as it will ever be and all the additions have been done etc. no surprises (generally)  I have many such games on my Steam list waiting for the right time for me to get them

[KoolHndLuke]

31 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

Replayablilty is a big thing for me. If you want the max $$$ from me (new purchase etc) I have to be able to see that I can replay it many, many times over. Mass Effect is such a game. Get board of it for awhile and then return a few years later to relive the game. Same for Witcher.

Well that begs the question of what is worth replaying? Those two games you mention fall squarely in the rpg genre. What about fps or other types of games? There are some games that I've enjoyed, but, have no interest in playing again. The RE series is a great example. But it wouldn't stop me from buying them. I guess my point is why does it need to have replay value?

 

Edit; Although, games with little to no replay value don't work well with modding, do they? 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Well that begs the question of what is worth replaying? Those two games you mention fall squarely in the rpg genre. What about fps or other types of games?

 

Bulletstorm is always worth replaying.

 

[KoolHndLuke]

46 minutes ago, Wolfstorm321 said:

 

Bulletstorm is always worth replaying.

 

Don't really play shooters that much anymore since to me they all kinda look and play the same with a few wrinkles maybe. I like the new SotTR though it's more action/adventure. 

 

 I like strategy games for their replay value. I get a kick building a juggernaut out of nothing and then trashing enemies. Recently bought AI War 1&2 on sale but haven't played them yet. Still so many great pc games I haven't found yet. If I can mod them, then it's even better. 

[RitualClarity]

5 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Well that begs the question of what is worth replaying? Those two games you mention fall squarely in the rpg genre. What about fps or other types of games? There are some games that I've enjoyed, but, have no interest in playing again. The RE series is a great example. But it wouldn't stop me from buying them. I guess my point is why does it need to have replay value?

 

Edit; Although, games with little to no replay value don't work well with modding, do they? 

Civilization, Sims City (just got another newer copy of the type of game. had a copy of such type since 2000 of various editions)  I have enjoyed BioShock as well but not as replayable as Mass Effect but still good for a spin once in a while. (have yet to complete the last edition but no fault of the game)

 

Modding capability does add to the repeatability but not required for a great game. Witcher IMO can stand alone without any mods and the only thing I have done is turned on the console so that I can "gift" some equipment and levels etc from the start so I don't have to grind so much.  Not more than I was at on the previous play though. Most of the games that have extensive replayabliity has different paths that you can explore. (Mass Effect for example .. not sure on the last edition I stopped it was too repetitive and weak on the character development IMO) Witcher is another example and Civilization and Sims can be different each time you play.

 

I will buy an excellent linear game to play (often at 20~35% off but still buy it) if it has excellent writing or other such qualities (character development Story etc) I bought Vampire (spelled differently) where the doctor becomes a vampire. Enjoyed that. Worthy of the price I bought it for. Haven't played it a second time. Batman on sale (forget the version) it was more of a sale but still worth it for a play through.  Lesser games of course the price has to drop. 

 

Another game is the KTOR (classic version) from a long time ago. Excellent writing. It surprised me at the end which was wonderful. I usually see foreshadowing events quite easily but that went past me. Excellent.

 

Modding isn't the end game .. Oblivion and Morrow wind can be modded but It never really engaged me enough to continue even when I did mod it (Oblivion) I just fucked around with some of the mods effects in the game and eventually quit. ( I believe I had to re-image / or lost the mod setup for some reason as the reason to stop) Fallout 3 on the other hand had a xbox version (before it could be modded) and played hundreds of hours on the base game... modding only brought me over to the PC side for hundreds more.

[KoolHndLuke]

46 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

Vampire (spelled differently) where the doctor becomes a vampire. Enjoyed that

I saw a good vampire game the other day that looked pretty good. Maybe the same. I'm surprised there aren't some decent AO rated ones from indies or something. That would be fun.

 

46 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

Another game is the KTOR (classic version) from a long time ago. Excellent writing. It surprised me at the end which was wonderful. I usually see foreshadowing events quite easily but that went past me. Excellent.

Classic. I've heard rumors of a remake. I hope Obsidian is the dev.

 

46 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

Fallout 3 on the other hand had a xbox version (before it could be modded) and played hundreds of hours on the base game... modding only brought me over to the PC side for hundreds more.

That was me with Skyrim years ago, lol. I'm ashamed I played the vanilla game for as many hours years as I did. Finally saw Sexlab mods and that was when I had to switch. 

[27X]

4 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

hope Obsidian is the dev.

 

No, no you don't.

 

The people that made Obsidian great don't work there anymore, and the writing in Facebook Worlds proves that pretty handily.

[RitualClarity]

5 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I saw a good vampire game the other day that looked pretty good. Maybe the same. I'm surprised there aren't some decent AO rated ones from indies or something. That would be fun.

 

Classic. I've heard rumors of a remake. I hope Obsidian is the dev.

 

That was me with Skyrim years ago, lol. I'm ashamed I played the vanilla game for as many hours years as I did. Finally saw Sexlab mods and that was when I had to switch. 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/427290/Vampyr/

is the game I am referencing. It was pretty good. Not wonderful but pretty solid. got a bit repetitive and grind at times but not half bad. I was given origin pass for a gift so that is part of it so I was able to actually play it for free so a good use of the value of the pass..

 

Obsidian should be able to put some character flavor into the game. Problem with remakes is they never really measure up.  I'd be happy with a modern work up (new graphics, rework the mechanics etc) but leave the story and everything else the same.

 

Nothing to be shame of if you enjoyed the game, you enjoyed the game. I don't understand why someone is embarrassed at the number of hours they played a game either. If you played a game 3000 hours over the period of 5 years or so then so be it.  So long as you have taken care of the rest of the items of need in your life than it is fine. I can see if you have 3000 hours in a game in a couple of months.. not having a life but still then, My only concern ... and the concern of others... should only be if you are healthy and getting your needs taken care of and it isn't due to some depression or other issue. I've put as much as 2 or even 3 hundred of hours into a game at one time in a few weeks .. quite a lot of game time. IN my case it was due to me being very sick at that time and not able to do much else.

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, RitualClarity said:

leave the story and everything else the same.

Yeah, with what every other dev is doing to the originals, I highly doubt they will do that. I'd actually be damn surprised if they leave most of it alone.

 

What I meant is that I'm ashamed of myself for playing a vanilla Skyrim and thinking it was fine. It SO wasn't. The sheer volume of quality mods just blew me away. I remember the first question I asked was why they were all free. Got about 20 different answers. 

 

1 hour ago, 27X said:

No, no you don't.

 

The people that made Obsidian great don't work there anymore, and the writing in Facebook Worlds proves that pretty handily.

Not surprising. Seems like artists and programmers are more guns for hire nowadays.

[27X]

Has nothing to do with guns for hire, quite the opposite. They were fired or quit because Feargus and his best bro removed voting by the rest of the team on projects and hired his elementary age child as a full time employee with benefits profit sharing and insurance, their new lead writer is an old Anita Sarkessian script writer alum. NV obsidian literally does not exist anymore.

[KoolHndLuke]

23 minutes ago, 27X said:

Has nothing to do with guns for hire, quite the opposite. They were fired or quit because Feargus and his best bro removed voting by the rest of the team on projects and hired his elementary age child as a full time employee with benefits profit sharing and insurance, their new lead writer is an old Anita Sarkessian script writer alum. NV obsidian literally does not exist anymore.

I've heard that before and thought it was a joke or something. You seem to know quite alot about the business, which devs/publishers do you think are doing it right? I mean CDPR can't be the only triple A game in town. What about Larian making a new Baldur's Gate?

[27X]

Larian is a really progressive company, but they're also small and not into drinking the koolaid, so you'll probably get their standard quality writing throughout, whether it fits your politics or not.

 

Judging a company, any company as an "individual entity" is a fool's errand.

 

You can only judge what the company does and is, case by case; and the idea that "these people are my tribe, now and forever" simply isn't a thing and hasn't been one since the early 90s. The idea them guys and gals gots your back simply isn't how game dev works. Case in point.

 

RE3R is designed by deliberation to be completeable  in two hours. That two hours of cheesy dialog and exploding zombies was designed by thirteen different contracting companies and literally hundreds of outside contractors. The capcom part of RE3R's production is actually rather small and most of it was in hiring and pre/post production.

 

The kind of paradigm you're talking about is basically an indie company of not terribly large size.

 

There are very very few tribes in games development, and tribal thinking simply doesn't track anymore.

 

Same thing with CDPR. They're tribal now, the chances of them staying that way is rather low. Pretty much in line with all the people on this forum thinking they're going to get sexlab in 1pp with full penetration with Carpenter Brut playing in the background. Not happening in any universe. The sex scenes are exactly that, media style sex scenes. The most you're gonna get is shifting repetition camera and some tits and ass.