Question about Legacy of the Dragonborn

[Tiress]

12 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

That "some people seem to be sensitive to it" are people with a bad game configuration.

The "script-heavy" or "script-intensive" not exist.

I don't think it has any actual relation to game configuration, it's just a term established by the community. In general, when you have a mod that uses a lot of scripting to function, it can be considered script-heavy. When you have many of them, you have a script-heavy setup etc. That's at least what I ment.

 

Both - script-heavy and script-intensive - mods DO exist. It's really strange to read that they don't especially from the very author of one of them.

Notice that I'm not saying it automatically means they break the game, but as long as your mod can put a lot of stress on the scripting engine, or it just does a lot of scripting stuff in general, using these terms makes sense.

[GenioMaestro]

1 hour ago, Tiress said:

I don't think it has any actual relation to game configuration, it's just a term established by the community. In general, when you have a mod that uses a lot of scripting to function, it can be considered script-heavy. When you have many of them, you have a script-heavy setup etc. That's at least what I ment.

 

Both - script-heavy and script-intensive - mods DO exist. It's really strange to read that they don't especially from the very author of one of them.

Notice that I'm not saying it automatically means they break the game, but as long as your mod can put a lot of stress on the scripting engine, or it just does a lot of scripting stuff in general, using these terms makes sense.

I try change the "comunity rules" because a lot of them not have any fundament. Read my historic of post and you can understand it.

 

The "comunity rules" has been made years ago based in how the game works in the year 2012, 2013 and 2014. No rule has been changed from theses years and the mods and the utils has been advanced a lot.

Some of that rules not have any thecnical fundament and are based in bad concepts, bad experiences and a lot of people saying "yes, i had that problems time ago" and that rummors has been end in a "comunity rule" that really not have any support in any web page, not have any thecnical fundament and any advanced user can demostrate that the rule is false.

 

Read my blog and learn how really works the scripts and how the game manage it. Have a lot of scripts not have any relation to "script-heavy" because, really, the "script-heavy" mods not exist. Is one of the "bad concept of the comunity". Have a "script-heavy setup" is another "bad concept of the comunity" because if the the "script-heavy" mods not exist, you can not have a "script-heavy setup".

 

Take a look to my recent mod list in this post. At least half of my mods have scripts and more than 50 of them are considered "script-heavy" but i not have any problem in my game.

If your really think that the "script-heavy" mods exist you must change your mind.

 

Normally, when a player have problems in the game, are caused by a bad configuration or a bad mod. Never the problems can be caused by the simultaneous execution of mods with script. The mods and the scripts not break the game and not give any problem to the game.

 

For years, the "experts players and big modders" has said that "execute a lot of mods whit scripts give problems to the game and the only solution is reduce the mod charge and reduce the script charge because the game not support it" but that not have any sense. Do you see any web page or thecnical document that support that idea??  Is one of the "invented comunity concept" that not have any sense or techical support.

[Tiress]

38 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

At least half of my mods have scripts and more than 50 of them are considered "script-heavy" but i not have any problem in my game.

If your really think that the "script-heavy" mods exist you must change your mind.

You are assuming that by script-heavy I mean problematic, where by script-heavy I mean "It has a lot of scripts.". Just that. There isn't any hidden meaning behind it.

So based on the above, yes, I really think that script-heavy mods exist and I'm not changing my mind on that. In my opinion the term is still valid even if it gets interpreted wrong.

 

Instead of claiming that there is no such a thing like script-heavy mods, it might be better to say that they might not be as harmful (or not harmful at all) as people believe them to be.

[GenioMaestro]

6 minutes ago, Tiress said:

You are assuming that by script-heavy I mean problematic, where by script-heavy I mean "It has a lot of scripts.". Just that. There isn't any hidden meaning behind it.

So based on the above, yes, I really think that script-heavy mods exist and I'm not changing my mind on that. In my opinion the term is still valid even if it gets interpreted wrong.

 

Instead of claiming that there is no such a thing like script-heavy mods, it might be better to say that they might not be as harmful (or not harmful at all) as people believe them to be.

Please, when i say read is for a motive. A lot of players have very bad concepts and the only way of know it is, first, admit the posibility of have a bad concept, and second, read the documentation and verify it.

https://www.loverslab.com/blogs/entry/8312-chapter-1-number-of-scripts-in-a-mod/

 

The scripts are really harmless because the scripts can not give any problem to the game. That mean that the concept of "script-heavy" not have any sense and, by extension, the "script-heavy" not exist.

[Tiress]

25 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

Please, when i say read is for a motive. A lot of players have very bad concepts and the only way of know it is, first, admit the posibility of have a bad concept, and second, read the documentation and verify it.

https://www.loverslab.com/blogs/entry/8312-chapter-1-number-of-scripts-in-a-mod/

 

The scripts are really harmless because the scripts can not give any problem to the game. That mean that the concept of "script-heavy" not have any sense and, by extension, the "script-heavy" not exist.

*sigh* I'm not arguing with you about whether scripts are harmful or not, you might be even right on that.

 

To you "script-heavy" mods don't exist because you think the concept behind it is about too many scripts being harmful.

To me "script-heavy" mods do exist because I think the concept behind it is about many scripts being used.

 

Can you really say I'm wrong?

[GenioMaestro]

18 minutes ago, Tiress said:

To me "script-heavy" mods do exist because I think the concept behind it is about many scripts being used.

 

Can you really say I'm wrong?

Again, have you read the chapter 1????  The number of scripts in the mod not have any relation.

 

But maybe you are NOT thinking in the "pure number of scripts".

 

If you are thinking on "the number of ACTIVE scripts" that can have the mod, read the blog for discover that not have any relation. My mod can run 3200 scripts at the same time.

 

If you are thinking about "the number of ACTIVE scripts that ALL the mods can have together", executing them all at the same time, read the blog to discover that it has no relation.
With my ScriptTest you can execute 200 type 2 = mathematical scripts, the heaviest I could do, without any problem. Under normal circumstances the game does not run more than 50 scripts from all the mods and can run 4 times more without any problem.

 

If you are thinking on "the FRECUENCY of the scripts", read the blog for discover that not have any relation. My mod can run 3200 scripts all at the same time in a continous loop without end and without pause and without FRECUENCY. My scripts run constanly, without a milisecond of stop, and that not give any problem. Run 50 mods with a update FRECUENCY of one second is NOT a problem for the game.

 

If you are thinking, as some players, on "the number of CLOACKS", download Multi_Cloak_Counter for see how my mod run 16 simultaneous cloacks, all at the same time, in conjunction with all the cloacks from others mods, without any problem.

 

If you are thinking in the problems caused by a specific mod or in the overcharge that a specific mod can cause is a problem limited to that mod because is bad designed or bad implemented.

The most evident demostration is that others mods not have any problem. If we have ONE mod that give problems, because their scripts are bad implemented, we can not say that, by definition, ALL the mod with script CAN give problems. The position is exactly the inverse.

 

None mod and none script give problems. If ONE mod give problems is because that mod is bad implemented.

[Tiress]

19 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

Again, have you read the chapter 1????  The number of scripts in the mod not have any relation.

I did. You analyze there impact of scripts on the game. It's an interesting reading and you make some good points there, but I'm not arguing with you about whether scripts have any impact on the game to begin with.

 

Your concept of what script-heavy means is obviously different from mine, I'll leave it at that.

[GenioMaestro]

2 hours ago, Tiress said:

Your concept of what script-heavy means is obviously different from mine, I'll leave it at that.

Try explain your concep.

[Tiress]

1 hour ago, GenioMaestro said:

Try explain your concep.

I tried that 3 times already.

 

To me script-heavy = lots of scripts. That's all.

[27X]

12 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

The rest of the limits are false or machine dependant.

The string limit is neither false nor machine dependent. A badly coded mod has nothing to do with 'script intensity', and Legacy is a badly coded mod.

[yatol]

1 hour ago, 27X said:

The string limit is neither false nor machine dependent. A badly coded mod has nothing to do with 'script intensity', and Legacy is a badly coded mod.

why are you wasting your time? the "expert" have no idea what you are talking about

you have some exemples of what is badly coded in that mod?

don't use it so no idea what the problem is supposed to be with it (a mod that is just collecting stuff.... to put it in a house i never use...)

On 4/30/2019 at 1:42 AM, 27X said:

lol no; the mod is put together tape and glue and has more hanging strings than every sexlab mod combined. Having a save fail with this mod installed is a question of when, not if.

 

let's check if i am supposed to have problems using that mod

 

many worship step, so they are supposed to be ok with that

https://forum.step-project.com/topic/10257-srle-extended-string-count-testing/

Quote

Brief summary:

"This issue(save corruption) has been determined by vyper00 to be caused by an overflow of the strings table in the savefile. The strCount field which indicates how many string are in the table is 16 bits (unsigned), so the maximum value is 65,535. When the numbers of strings exceeds 65535, the game continues to run without issue except for numerous errors in the Papyrus logs and savegames that are unreadable . Even Script Scalpel and SaveTool can't load them, they are COMPLETELY unrecoverable."

 

Quote

Just as example here are some of user observations:

 

Interesting NPCs (3400)

Legacy of the Dragonborn (4000)

Campfire and Frostfall (1000)

1200 - Frostfall & Campfire

2700 - Ultimate Deadly Encounters (Sands of Time)

    28 - Revenge of the Enemies

      0 - Inconsequential NPCs

  560 - Skyrim Immersive Creatures

  790 - iNeed

    00 - OBIS

    41 - Moonpath to Elswyr

1300 - Helgen Reborn

4000 - S.T.E.P. Extended

  670 - Falskaar

  930 - Holidays

helgen reborn? 3dnpc? falskaar? have a save with all that, let's check

it's useless to wait for that string problem, it can never happen

that took 950 hours of trying new mods to get bored of having mod x door inside mod y castle

how much string left without most of those quests mods

all those quests mods were 11 000 strings

the ones that have that string problem pick mods that suck, that's all

 

 

[27X]

If you're not actively advancing the quests' state(s) it's not going to do shit yatol, we've already had this conversation, if you want to to talk to yourself about it again knock your self out. If your save state  isn't actually advancing concurrently through various iterations that are writing to the table, it isn't going to do anything. I can hang out in Qasmoke forever with seven thousand quest mods and well no shit nothing will happen, and why would cell mods have jack shit to do with that. Cell asset insertion mods crashing or not crashing is an entirely different argument.

[yatol]

11 minutes ago, 27X said:

If your save state  isn't actually advancing concurrently through various iterations that are writing to the table, it isn't going to do anything.

you are saying that to someone that have a working save with everything done?

 

you don't even know what those strings are

what do you have in quests? variables

it's that your strings

 

coc qasmoke with summerset, that take more time

not because of that mod quest, there isn't much

because of that mod persistant stuff, persistant, that mean it's always load

 

it's also because of that i have more performances with my everything done save, than with my outside of helgen save

i no longer load civil war persistant stuff, those quests are no longer active, that stuff lost its persistant flag (you can see the performance impact when you remove a dozen of quests mods, or when you compare enderal to skyrim)

[Myst42]

Just now, Tiress said:

To me script-heavy = lots of scripts. That's all.

Just now, GenioMaestro said:

(...)

There seems to be a large confusion on what "script heavy" means, and as I've been reading these past few weeks... ther is not even a standard definition of what, exactly, that is. It's mostly reduced to speculation and personal belief.

In a world where everyone has their own definition of what a concept means, there can never be a final concensus on terms, unless people start agreeing on their definitions.

 

The way I see it, Genio says that "script heavy" doesnt exist, and I tend to agree mostly, if looking at the concept through his definition.

Especially after running lots and lots of tests on my own and achieving a near perfect state of stability in my own game.

 

But that doesnt mean mods cannot give problems and cause "corruption" cause it happens.

What I've discovered so far kinda goes like this:

 

1.- The number of scripts a mod, or many mods have, is irrelevant to the game's stability or performance. The game only uses scripts when it needs to call them, and it has a very large range of tolerance to how much stuff it can run simultaneously. IE, scripts attached to magic effects, only run on actors who have the magic effect present, or else, it is as if the script doesnt even exist. I don't know if there is a limit to simultanous scripts, but my bet is if the game is exceeding that threshhold, assuming it exists, then something almost impossible just happened since no normal setting is even capable of overloading the system with that much of a critical number of scripts.

2.- Number of scripts =/= number of script calls. This means many different scripts can work just fine with no problems, but other times, the game calls a single script, multiple times or "instances". This is relevant because the times I've seen the game fail, it's not because it has too many scripts, but because it's making too many calls on the same one.

3.-Related to the previous point, this also means that one does not need multiple mods to crash a game. All it takes is one bad apple. A single mod can break the game on its own, with no help.

4.-Some events are dangerous to use if not treated with precaution. I'm talking about events that generate lots of calls per second, stuff like OnMagicEffectApply() or OnHit(). A lot of the times, I've seen my game fail on tests, it has something to do with these kinds of events. These, I think are potentially dengerous because a lot of problems, happen when the game finds itself taking a larger number of script calls than it can answer in time. Normally, these get queued and solved with a delay, which in game translates as "script lag" as I call it. It's not really harmful, and all one has to do is wait untill things calm down and call excess gets naturally reduced because you're no longer in a battle with a dragon, a bear, a sabercat and 3 bandit mages using concentration spells near solitude.

5.-Here is where stuff gets tricky and we stop talking facts and start talking speculation... The script system is stable and logic, but sometimes stuff I still find illogical, happens. Why? Fuck knows why. It literally makes no sense that a mod starts calling OnHit() when there is no battle and no one is hitting anyone, on a character that's alone, low level, with almost no magic, on a quiet cell like qasmoke. Sometimes it happens. Mods that are stable and fine like XPMSE or in my case AFT incurr into the call-loop bug and start making nonsense calls for whatever reason. other less stable mods like Beeing Female are way more likely to generate that kind of behavior, at least in my experience.

 

One thing I do know for sure, is this kind of behavior doesnt seem directly related to the number of mods installed or the number of scripts mods have, but an anomalous behavior instead. It doesnt even relate to the dreaded "stack dumps", though those do appear as well when the bug happens. In that case, the stack dumps are an indicator of the system getting a larger number of script calls than it's able to answer. To distinguish between a "harmless" stack dump that will go away when the stressful situation in game stops (IE using a concentration spell longer than you should), and a lethal stack dump that does not go away because it is caused by the call-loop bug, is crucial to understanding how to get stable games and making better mods.

The first difference between one an the other is that one always goes away, since it's a temporary thing, whilst the other, does not. Keep in mind both produce the dreaded "save bloat" as it can be seen with save editing tools, but again, but one of them goes away and the other, stays.

 

In short... I have not seen problems caused by "a script heavy setting" consistent on lots of mods and/or mods with lots of scripts.

However, I have seen mods singlehandedly corrupt my game. Mods what when uninstalled or fixed, stop giving problems, even if the rest of the game is still near 255 mods with tons of scripts.

And I still have not reached a perfect understanding of what causes true "corruption" A lot of times, it's about complicated mods, some others, it's about badly designed mods, but sometimes, even inoffensive mods can bug out.

MAYBE... it is about bad luck and the bug happens only in certain circumstances... I have a theory that what I called "script lag" as defined previously, is a fertile breeding ground for lethal bugs to happen. If the game is processing stuff on "past time" as the delay happens, it may be more prone to acquire wrong variables, use nonexistant forms, get incorrect timers etc.. that result in bugs. But we have yet to find a plausible explanation for this that can be proved and recreated by evidence.

And maybe I never will, since talk on this subject also goes to dlls and stuff that goes deeper and deper into coding areas that are beyond my understanding for now.

But who knows.

 

Just 2 cents.

[GenioMaestro]

14 hours ago, 27X said:

The string limit is neither false nor machine dependent. A badly coded mod has nothing to do with 'script intensity', and Legacy is a badly coded mod.

The string table bug has been solved by Crash Fixes more than 3 years ago. 

 

Can you explain why Legacy is "badly coded"??  Where is, exactly, the problem and why??  What problems can cause to the game or to the savegame??

[GenioMaestro]

1 hour ago, Myst42 said:

There seems to be a large confusion on what "script heavy" means, and as I've been reading these past few weeks... ther is not even a standard definition of what, exactly, that is. It's mostly reduced to speculation and personal belief.

In a world where everyone has their own definition of what a concept means, there can never be a final concensus on terms, unless people start agreeing on their definitions.

Because, really, they do not exist.

 

When the game has a problem, the web pages, such as STEP, CK, Wiki, Reddit, Nexus ... explain the problem and give the accepted definition for the problem and establish the necessary concepts.

 

When the problem does not exist, we do not have a definition and each one explains it as it can, usually based on bad past experiences. Many players had problems in the past and, when they do not know WHY they had the problem, they give their own explanation. Sometimes, that absurd explanation has become law without any technical support, based solely on the bad experiences of the players.

 

For example, some players think that scripts are the worst part of the game and they break the game and are the cause of many problems and CTD in the game. But all that is false.

The scripts are strictly necessary. The game can not work without scripts. The base game has 10k scripts.

 

1 hour ago, Myst42 said:

But that doesnt mean mods cannot give problems and cause "corruption" cause it happens.

Of course, because the only real problem is the bad mods that are poorly developed and poorly implemented.

 

Sometimes the problem is not exclusive to a single mod and the problems are only shown when we mix an exact mod with another exact mod, because they are incompatible. But that only happens to users who have both mods. For other users, those modifications, independently, work perfectly.

 

1 hour ago, Myst42 said:

To distinguish between a "harmless" stack dump that will go away when the stressful situation in game stops (IE using a concentration spell longer than you should), and a lethal stack dump that does not go away because it is caused by the call-loop bug, is crucial to understanding how to get stable games and making better mods.

The first difference between one an the other is that one always goes away, since it's a temporary thing, whilst the other, does not. Keep in mind both produce the dreaded "save bloat" as it can be seen with save editing tools, but again, but one of them goes away and the other, stays.

All the stack dumps are 'harmless' and none of them are 'lethal'. 

 

The stack dumps are one alert for the developer. Not more. The user must not look it. The log is disabled by default for a good motive. Because the user can not know if the things that appear in the log are a problem or not. The only person that really can know that is the developer.

 

The stack dumps are not permanent and of course must not be constant. If you have constant and repeteated stack dump are caused by a problem in a mod. The game not generate the stack dump for fun. Generate it for alert of a problem. If the game generate a lot of stack dump is because a mod had severe problems and you must try locate the mod and report the problem to the developer.

 

Of course, you can not report a problem related to stack dumps if you not have the log. But you not need a log for report a problem. Because the problem is not in the log or in the stack dumps. The problem are in the mod.

The stack dumps are totally harmless and not cause any problem to the game.

The cause of the problem is the mod.

 

And of course, a mod with problems can cause 'save bloat' but that, normally, is part of the problem.

[Grey Cloud]

1 hour ago, GenioMaestro said:

, that absurd explanation has become law without any technical support, based solely on the bad experiences of the players.

e.g. Never use quicksave and disable autosave.  (I wish I had a £ for every time autosave has pulled me out of a hole).

[yatol]

23 minutes ago, Myst42 said:

The way I see it, Genio says that "script heavy" doesnt exist, and I tend to agree mostly, if looking at the concept through his definition.

script heavy it's whatever you want

 

you'll find some useless scripts in the updateoffsets1, load your save in savegamecleaner and check

 

that's stuff like the serena script, that check every 2 seconds if i remember right, if it's time to make serena follow you, say something or whatever (even if you didn't start dawnguard yet or there's no serena around, you have dawnguard, you have that in updateoffset, all the time)

some fail scripts like the one from the cavern with a crown south of winterhold, that aren't unload, so the game keep running them (check what you have running and kill the useless ones)

 

there's also the heartfire garden script, that crap check oncellchange if it's time for the plant to grow, oncellchange? that's also done when you are in mod x worldspace? why not only do that when you enter the fucking garden of that house?

the siege scripts have lines of xxyyyyy.disabled, that stuff is incomplete, there are some left when you enter whiterun, solitude or whatever, after the civil war is done (war is over, you are loading that for nothing, that should be add to the xxyyyyyy.disabled)

 

a few of them, you won't see the performance impact

with mods you can get hundreds of them, and that's another storie

 

 

 

there's also the broken scripts that are... broken

there's a reason for all those topics about the civil war, stack dumps during a siege, it's the same as stack dump during helgen start (your chance or avoiding problems is very low)

 

script is waiting for you to kill npc x to open the door, you killed npc x while the scripts were dump, he is dead, you can't re kill him, you are stuck

you don't know that's the problem so you won't think about reviving him to re kill him

you find some console command to open that door with google, since you aren't the only one

then you also get stuck because npc don't give the next quest

the script that is waiting for npc x to die, didn't set globalvalue siege1 done to true, and that's the condition of the next quest dialog

it can't be quest siege x done, because you may get siege y or siege z, the siege you get set the next quest condition to true (that wasn't done, so you don't see the dialog)

 

 

just reloading earlier save can be enought to break scripts

and that's easy to see in game

 

save the game when you enter a draugr crypt

look for a tomb with the script that wake up a draugr from it

reload the save

go back to that tomb, nothing wake up

if you die during a siege, and you get stuck, it can be the same

 

 

there's that kind of stuff too

 

while x == false

end while

stuff that is waiting for x

 

script 1 is waiting for script 2 to do its stuff, before doing whatever

that small thing is fine?

script 2 broke, x wasn't set to true

last frame stay on screen, fps drop to 0, cpu is too busy checking x to do something else, that's those topics about "freeze"

 

[monsta88]

I'm using it in a game with 237 mods, a lot of them supplementals for the LotD (mods which have items for the museum). A few examples:

- Wheels of Lull

- The Forgotten City

- Grey cowl of Nocturnal

- Falskaar

- Wyrmstooth

- More Interesting loot

- Bad Gremlin's collection mods

- Fossil mining

- Artifacts of Boethiah

- Royal Armory

- Skyrim Underground

- The Mad masker

- etc

 

I also have most os SIaions mods installed

- Apocalypse

- Wildcat

- Thunderchild

- Sacrosanct

- Summermyst

 

And also a lot of LL mods

- Sexlab

- SOS

- DDa, x, i

- ZAZ 8+

- PSQ (with Real flying)

- Prison overhaul

- Naked dungeons

- Deviously Enchanted chests

- about 9700 anims (according to FNIS)

- SL Defeat

- S_L_U_T_S

- etc

 

I'm over 240 hours in it, about 1200 items collected in the museum. I have a huge savegame (27MB atm), but very rare crashes, I think I had 1 this week.

 

I'd say it is quite stable for the Oldrim.

 

As for the original question: if you like collecting stuff, then this mod is very good for you. If you expected this to be a questmod, then you expected wrong. While it has several quests, a lot of them are tied to the museum progress. It has a very good playerhome with features like autosorting crafting materials, remote material stashing, craftlooting, etc. Also has a nice flying ship, if you are more RP-like and not just fast travel everywhere.

[Myst42]

Just now, GenioMaestro said:

Because, really, they (script heavy mods) do not exist. 

What I mean is... maybe not, but mods with messed up script design, however, do. And if I read you correctly, the term you're using for it is:

Just now, GenioMaestro said:

bad mods that are poorly developed and poorly implemented.

Imho, that, is what the term "script heavy mod" should refer to (even if it's kinda misguided). Ultimately, in the large scheme of things, it's the same thing. A delinquent mod, a "bad apple". A conflictive mod etc...

Just now, GenioMaestro said:

All the stack dumps are 'harmless' and none of them are 'lethal'.

I think thats also a technicality concept debate. The idea that the stacks per-se are all just warnings, is understandable. What I mean by "lethal" is this:

Just now, GenioMaestro said:

If the game generate a lot of stack dump is because a mod had severe problems and you must try locate the mod and report the problem to the developer.

~

Because the problem is not in the log or in the stack dumps. The problem are in the mod. 

A warning is always a warning and nothing more. But a warning can warn you of potential danger that has yet to happen, or it can warn you of something that already went horribly wrong.

A lot of times, it's just nothing, but when shit goes sideways, you can be sure as hell you're also going to get massive assloads of stack dumps.

Differentiating between these 2 is not always easy, especially if you dont know anything about logs from before, hell, I'm not 100% sure on doing it right all the times either, but it is the key to understanding if a game is just delayed or positively broken.

 

[GenioMaestro]

18 hours ago, Myst42 said:

What I mean is... maybe not, but mods with messed up script design, however, do. And if I read you correctly, the term you're using for it is:

Imho, that, is what the term "script heavy mod" should refer to (even if it's kinda misguided). Ultimately, in the large scheme of things, it's the same thing. A delinquent mod, a "bad apple". A conflictive mod etc...

You can understand it however you want, but let me tell you that, from my point of view, that is not correct.

A script should not give any problem of any kind. Although the script is complex, such as the sexlab animations and the SLSO modification. The only problem may be a bit of delay or a synchronization error.

 

A script or a mod that breaks the game can not be considered "heavy" and should be considered problematic.

A complex script can be considered "heavy" if it does not cause real problems in the game.

A script that gives problems, like exaggerated delays, that can break the game and the savegame, can never be 'heavy' because 'heavy' means something that is bearable and that does not break any.

 

If the problems caused by that script or that mod are not bearable we will have to say that it is a very bad mod that gives many problems.

 

18 hours ago, Myst42 said:

I think thats also a technicality concept debate. The idea that the stacks per-se are all just warnings, is understandable. What I mean by "lethal" is this:

A warning is always a warning and nothing more. But a warning can warn you of potential danger that has yet to happen, or it can warn you of something that already went horribly wrong.

A lot of times, it's just nothing, but when shit goes sideways, you can be sure as hell you're also going to get massive assloads of stack dumps.

Differentiating between these 2 is not always easy, especially if you dont know anything about logs from before, hell, I'm not 100% sure on doing it right all the times either, but it is the key to understanding if a game is just delayed or positively broken.

You have a wrong concept. You are assuming that the stacks dumps, sometimes, warn you of a future problem. It dont have any relation to.

 

The first thing you need to know is that, at maximun, you can have ONE stack per minute.

The second thing is that, even if you have a stack dump per minute, that does not mean that the mod or the game does not work correctly.

Run any of my tests and you will see how they generate a stack dump per minute while the game works perfectly. The fact that you have a lot of stacks dumps does not assure you, with total certainty and security, that there is a problem in a mod.

Maybe, the size of the stack dump may have some relationship, but not always. If the stack dump has thousands and thousands of lines it can mean that there are thousands and thousands of accumulated scripts.
But that does not guarantee that you have a problem because my ScriptTest executes 3200 scripts and generates huge stack dumps.

 

Where you have to look to know if you have a problem is in the savegame. Open it with ReSaver and look at the Active Scripts area. If you have thousands and thousands of Active Scripts you probably have a problem with a mod. And you can see the name of the script and find the problematic mod very easily.

Normally stacks dumps are associated with problematic mods but not always. Stacks dumps are sometimes generated due to problems in the configuration of the game.

Having 10 stacks dumps in 10 minutes can mean you have a problem in a mod.
But 10 stacks dumps in 10 minutes does not mean that the game can not be recovered.

 

Stacks dumps are generated by work overload.

If the overload is punctual you will have a punctual stacks dump. (You call it harmless Stacks dumps)
If the overload is continuous you will have a stacks dump per minute. (You call it lethal Stacks dumps)
If the overload stops the game recovers. (For that you can not be sure)
If the overload does NOT stop there is no possible recovery. (And that end in a game break)

 

And that is not related to the stacks dumps. It is related to what the mods do.

[Myst42]

Just now, GenioMaestro said:

If the problems caused by that script or that mod are not bearable we will have to say that it is a very bad mod that gives many problems.

Fair enough.

But I'm not aiming to erase a concept here. I'm aiming to get a better understanding of it, and make sure we mean the right thing when we discuss things. If people say "script heavy" they mean something potentially harmful to the game... it's like talking of a big scary boogeyman we dont fully understand but we give a name to anyways. And many don't, and won't ever have the experience or knowledge to have a technical understanding of what that does even mean. Best we can aspire to, for now, is to erase the myth that a mod is "script heavy" just because it has a lot of scripts, and replace it with a more accurate concept that it means "a mod has problematic designs".

Just now, GenioMaestro said:

You have a wrong concept. You are assuming that the stacks dumps, sometimes, warn you of a future problem. It dont have any relation to.

And you misread me there, I did not mean that either.

Man, you dont have to explain this to me, I get it... stacks are a warning

I mean a warning, warns you, that something is happening

And yes, that means present time, not future.

That warning translates as one thing and one thing alone: work overload

Now when I said that said warning can mean something fatal, it means that that specific instance of work overload can be abnormal, and probably being caused by an anomaly such as stuck loops or whatever, as opposed to a warning that only means overload that passes over time.

Also again, yes, said warnings are NEVER the cause of problems, but merely a symptom.

But as a symptom, that can, and will appear, when stuff went wrong, both times, when it's serious and when it's not.

We're in agreement that this symptom, when bad, IS a rogue mod's fault, and not the warning itself's fault.

 

Anyway I think this strays way off topic and I'm not sure if OP is getting any solutions actually related to Legacy of the Dragonborn here... if you think my words are still confusing in concept, or you think something should be said in a different way, best talk this on PM or on a more proper topic where it actually helps someone

EDIT: Actually, scratch that... so many topics and I forgot what the true idea of this one was. We're still kinda off topic but no solutions are being asked here... this started discussing whether LotD is a dirty mod or not right? Well is it? What kind of problems has it caused that its design is put to the trial?

[yatol]

2 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

 

Stacks dumps are generated by work overload.

If the overload is punctual you will have a punctual stacks dump. (You call it harmless Stacks dumps)
If the overload is continuous you will have a stacks dump per minute. (You call it lethal Stacks dumps)
If the overload stops the game recovers. (For that you can not be sure)
If the overload does NOT stop there is no possible recovery. (And that end in a game break)

where did you read that bullshit?

oh wait, i know, have read the same crap 3 years ago

https://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=User:DavidJCobb/Stack_dumping

Quote

According to Bethesda's description of this phenomenon in the Fallout 4 CK wiki, stack dumping is just a warning system, and no action is taken at that stage.

"according to bethesda description"...

that's not someone from bethesda that is writing that...

he is just guessing randomly, like you

 

Quote

Whenever the game engine calls a function, a call stack is generated. A call stack keeps track of the function's state -- which functions have been called (if X calls Y, Y is added to the X call stack), and what values their variables have. Papyrus can only have a certain number of call stacks running at a time; if too many stacks accumulate, some may be suspended (paused). Stacks may also be suspended for other reasons:

someone understand that?

function.... call stack.... function state... if i didn't knew what stack dumps are... i wouldn't understand anything

instead of reading useless bullshit, you just check in game what that mess is

 

load the game, coc whiterun, and press save as fast as you can (it's easy for now)

open the save in savegamecleaner

go to active script

open them

you should see some scripts without name

 

the scripts, it's what is called call stack above (why not write scripts? for nobody to understand?)

and the scripts without name, it's the useless scripts (game didn't bother saving their name, because not worth the time)

 

that can be firefly that is load oncellload() (or another one, don't remember)

game load firefly script oncellload(), you aren't near that firefly, it's not there, script can't do anything, so it do... nothing (captain obvious)

script is the same as before since nothing was done, there's nothing to save in the save (captain obvious)

because of that it have no name in active scripts, that useless script will soon be... dump (dump, stack dump, stack are scripts.... some still don't get it?)

 

"papyrus can only have a certain number of call stacks"

you are limited to x active scripts (doesn't matter what those scripts are)

to not reach x, the no name scripts are dump every y seconds (i bet it's more performance friendly to load a few, and dump them all at once, than dumping them all the time)

you get the max before the dumping time, you get a... stack dump (too many scripts-> game dump scripts, that don't make sense?)

 

 

and about blabla "warning system, no action is taken at the time"....

 

no action is taken at the time, really? thank you captain obvious

i would never have guess script a (game is still running during that dump) can't load script b during the dump

but does the game wait for the stack dump to be done to load script b? because no script b.... that can be a problem

there are timers in game, not loading script b on time, that can also be a problem

 

cpu have a limited time to run those scripts

if it use most of that to dump useless scripts, and no longer have to time to run what it was supposed to run....

that's so harmless many use alternate start because they can't even get to helgen

you don't give more time to the cpu to run your mess to ignore the problem

and you never give more than one second (that's a freeze if your mess is too much)

 

and here's the only usefull info from crap kit site

Quote

OnItemAdded and OnItemRemoved can generate a large number of suspended stacks if no inventory event filter is used.

very effective indeed

spell stack dump, that put an armor in coffer 1, with script onitemadd that add 5 armor to coffer2, with script that add 5 armors to coffer1

that's all you need to force a stack dump anytime anywhere

 

someone have a better way to get a list of all scripts with oncellchange, onhit, onequipped, onwhatever?

once you have your list, you can add conditions to not load that stuff when there's no reason to load it, or replace onlocationchange with onload, or get rid of the script if you have no use for that stuff

less useless scripts, less chance to reach x active scripts before dumping time

[GenioMaestro]

7 hours ago, yatol said:

someone understand that?

function.... call stack.... function state... if i didn't knew what stack dumps are... i wouldn't understand anything

instead of reading useless bullshit, you just check in game what that mess is

Yes, anyone with sufficient knowledge. It seems you can not understand it.

 

Follow your own recommendation and "check in game" what really happens.

The Stack Dumps are totally harmless. Scripts are never broken, never discarded and never stop.

Any of my tests generates 'Stack Dumps' intentionally. I programmed them to create 'Stack Dumps'.

Because the 'Stack Dumps' does not give any problem and does not break the game.

 

Do any of my tests to see, with your own eyes, how the game works perfectly and without any problem while any of my tests generates huge 'Stack Dumps' every minute.

Please, stop saying meaningless things. The evidence can not be denied. My tests make many 'Stack Dumps' and do not give any problem.

 

And this is totally off topic. I beg you answer me in my own post, if you want, for continue discusing this matter.

 

[yatol]

2 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

Do any of my tests to see, with your own eyes, how the game works perfectly and without any problem while any of my tests generates huge 'Stack Dumps' every minute.

 

your test of spawing some npc while doing nothing and waiting for nothing to broke?

the test it's that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0D7lILrxY

have fun spawing your npcs around the carriage, instead of just using 2 coffers with onitemadd like everyone