[ARTICLE] Gamestar.de about LoversLab and sex in video games

[DoctaSax]

10 hours ago, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

That would be great, but considering the amount of hate most LGBT creators get when we create mods for ourselves (anyone remember the mess of the LGBT family mod... The one where people talked about comitting genocide to gays and repeating the Tragedy in Orlando again... Or even the mess around Pride 76, more recently...) It's hard to say that "Well if you want this, why not make it" when most of the people who have tried to make it are inundated with bullshit or have people tryin to run them out for making content they wanted... 

 

It's not a lack of creators. It's a lack of creators willing to put up with the bullshit from the community at large... And Especially when uploading mods/content that doesn't cater to Either Heterosexual men or isn't about them... You can't say "Well there's no willing modders" when most of the willing modders have problems of getting ran out or inundated with hateful commentary. 

 

9 hours ago, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

In the Case of places like here or Nexus... Many of us tend to feel that Our detractors have more a place and say with moderation/hosting than we do, so Most of us tend to pull back into places where we won't deal with hateful bullshit. 

 

Like noted the commentary was very reuductive of the situation and the complexity of it. It's hard to make mods as a gay modder when you watch the shit people who made the same thing put up with to just go out there and want to make or release content knowing there's gonna be a big chance you'll get the same treatment. and with the lack of trust in moderation because it feels like they are just following the people who make them the most money rather than doing actual enforcement work, it's logical to conclude why there's such a lack... 

I can't speak to how other places handle this, but if it happens here, you give us a shout, and we bust some heads.

[prinyo]

As a gay player I don't feel any disadvantage when it comes to BGS games and would go as far as to say that we have the same options as the straight players.

There are several aspects of this. The first been that the big and universal sex mods do include gay options in the core of their settings. I don't think we rely only on LGBT modders to create gay content and I'm quite happy that we are now past the point of (self) segregation. Even an older game like Oblivion has Joburg which offers a gay preset out of the box and a very easy way of setting up sexual preferences. Something that the framework mods for Skyrim and FO4 continued to do. All of the popular sex mods for those games offer settings that will turn your game gay just with a few clicks.

 

Also, speaking of the BGS games, I haven't witnessed any backlash against gay oriented mods. Several months after FO4 was released I uploaded a big gay oriented mod on Nexus (and here on LL). I expected some sort of problems as I assumed the FO franchise is more "macho" territory but there were none. A similar mod that was released earlier (and at that point was strictly male oriented) also enjoyed a peaceful existence.

 

I believe the gay aspect is now fully accepted as part of the mainstream modding and gaming experience. You get a backlash only when it is artificially and heavy-handedly done, for example with the current Apex Legends controversy. I need to say as a gay player I find myself agreeing with the straight players whenever they are annoyed by aggressive "SJW" moves by the developers. The point of the gay rights movement has always been to gain acceptance and not self-segregation.

 

There are lots of gay oriented mods and threads here at LL and I have never witnessed any problems with them. I don't believe anybody who wants to create and upload such a mod has anything to fear.

 

Also I don't agree that there are no "romantic mods". Some very popular mods cover that (OSEX. AA, Romance, some of the main features of FG...). 

[prinyo]

57 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

A few years ago it was pretty hard finding revealing male outfits for Oldrim,

As far as I'm aware, the first male revealing armor replacers were published in June 2013. Shortly after that several updates and compilations were published here (this , this, this, this ). There is also this (also the schlong protective gear mod) - not a replacer but can be given to followers and other NPCs. All of those things were published before May 2014. Those packs cover 99% of the outfits in Skyrim.

Before Skyrim, there were Slof's outfit replacers for Oblivion and FONV for example. In my game (Obl;ivion) I have all male NPCs wear revealing armors all created before Skyrim was even released.

 

 

[dagobaking]

19 hours ago, FauxFurry said:

There is no money to be made off of not being LGBT friendly on any gaming related site out there or for that matter, on nearly every entertainment site on the internet.

I thought of this point as well. But, I don't think the modding scene, LL or Nexus, is as mainstream as Chic-fil-A or Starbucks. Considering the audience (by far mostly young, straight males) I don't think there would be a cost for this kind of scandal like there is for other businesses.

 

Media outlets would have trouble just explaining what modding is to the general public, let alone running a campaign against tolerance issues there.

16 hours ago, GrimReaper said:

I won't deny that there's probably more hate depending on who is creating the mod and to what tastes the mod caters to, but it's an internet problem rather than the problem of a specific demographic.

This may be. But, I think TBOS' point is more that we don't have to add to the problem by overlooking it. Not that there is a demographic or site to blame.

14 hours ago, wokking56 said:

Look I can feel your pain yet there are numerous other creators on this site that make content that is not exactly main-stream. While it is true that much of this is more hetero-centric content it is none the less "not the norm". We've got bestiality, rape, torture, BDSM, slavery and the like, and I have seen negative comments about each of those.

The existence of other bad behavior doesn't mean we should just ignore other cases. I understood your point about demographic sizes and there's logic behind that. But, it didn't account for other factors and hopefully you can understand why that would be a sore subject for some people.

11 hours ago, 27X said:

You're gonna have to post proof of any of that here.

I wouldn't normally see this kind of thing as I'm not gay. But, TBOS has pointed it out on Nexus where people were upset that he made a mod that turned one of the characters gay.

 

I don't think that expecting tolerance of diverse interests on a modding site constitutes a walled garden.

[winny257]

4 hours ago, dagobaking said:

I thought of this point as well. But, I don't think the modding scene, LL or Nexus, is as mainstream as Chic-fil-A or Starbucks. Considering the audience (by far mostly young, straight males) I don't think there would be a cost for this kind of scandal like there is for other businesses.

 

Media outlets would have trouble just explaining what modding is to the general public, let alone running a campaign against tolerance issues there.

This may be. But, I think TBOS' point is more that we don't have to add to the problem by overlooking it. Not that there is a demographic or site to blame.

the reporters of GameStar do not even have at the surface of Loverslab scratched!
with insider knowledge, this report would look completely different!
here are mods that violate women's rights, human rights.
what can the press do already?
I would say, very much!

 

ever belongs *The feather is mightier than the sword*!

Spoiler

 

 

[GrimReaper]

You don't need mods for that, the base game usually has more than enough shit going on that would violate a plethora of rights. Fortunately, video game characters are pixels on a screen and not real.

[winny257]

33 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

You don't need mods for that, the base game usually has more than enough shit going on that would violate a plethora of rights.

you're right, and therefore are a lot of violence glorifying games banned in Germany. 

Spoiler

 

 

[prinyo]

4 hours ago, winny257 said:

you're right, and therefore are a lot of violence glorifying games banned in Germany

It is not just about physical violence. For example with Skyrim no mod can outdo the terrible things that are in the vanilla game. I'm pretty sure any bandit outlaw would prefer been raped by a dozen orcs/spiders/bears than been killed for practically no reason, their soul captured and then destroyed for a couple of charge points for some weapon.

It has always amazed me how people can be triggered by adult mods for a game where you regularly kill dozens of human beings just for a sword or something.

 

However I can't wait for VR to become mainstream enough so media starts to get hysterical about games like Blade and Sorcery.

[dagobaking]

6 hours ago, prinyo said:

I'm pretty sure any bandit outlaw would prefer been raped by a dozen orcs/spiders/bears than been killed for practically no reason, their soul captured and then destroyed for a couple of charge points for some weapon.

Maybe if forced to choose. But, I'm pretty sure that any bandit outlaw would prefer neither.

[GrimReaper]

8 hours ago, winny257 said:

you're right, and therefore are a lot of violence glorifying games banned in Germany. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Not anymore, really. This was the case 10 years or so ago but germany has been pretty lenient when it came to violent video games in recent time. Besides, even games banned can be legally imported and played in germany so nobody cares anyway. You're a few decades too late to paint germany as that authoritan police state you dream of, I'm afraid.

[Halstrom]

On 2/11/2019 at 6:19 PM, TheBottomhoodofSteel said:

That would be great, but considering the amount of hate most LGBT creators get when we create mods for ourselves (anyone remember the mess of the LGBT family mod... The one where people talked about comitting genocide to gays and repeating the Tragedy in Orlando again... Or even the mess around Pride 76, more recently...) It's hard to say that "Well if you want this, why not make it" when most of the people who have tried to make it are inundated with bullshit or have people tryin to run them out for making content they wanted... 

 

It's not a lack of creators. It's a lack of creators willing to put up with the bullshit from the community at large... And Especially when uploading mods/content that doesn't cater to Either Heterosexual men or isn't about them... You can't say "Well there's no willing modders" when most of the willing modders have problems of getting ran out or inundated with hateful commentary. 

Its quite bizzare that happens as I try to allow LGBT options in all my mods and many other out there kinks, but can't recall receiving hate for doing so. If anything I suspect its a percentage thing as only a very small percent of my mod users ask for LGBT features I haven't provided. The biggest problem for me is a lack of feedback from LGBT users on whether my options actually work as I really don't do any field testing of male/male content.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

This whole argument about video games "glorifying violence" is sounding like the same arguments being used in Pennsylvania to justify a "sin tax" of +10% on violent video games. Let's assume that 99% of the people who play video games are not affected one way or the other by violent video games, which is actually pretty close to the actual number. It's that 1% that's suffering from serious psychological illnesses that is affected and should be monitored at all times anyway. The same people who think Catcher in the Rye was telling them to murder Jon Lennon.

 

Blame whatever you want. If it's not the core cause, it's wasted effort. And, often, money.

[Glaurung26]

I imagine that the disparity in the Sex to Romance ratio is due to the nature of how the mods are produced. As in real life, mechanically sex is a hell of a lot easier than romance. You make the character model have naked textures and you make a solo or paired animation to simulate copulation. It takes skill and effort yes but it's relatively straightforward. Romance takes sustained creativity and psychological/sociological knowledge of how people interact with each other, at least to do it well. Most romance mods I come across are a sex animations gated behind a D&D dice roll check. It takes a lot of work to give NPCs different personalities, interests, hobbies, preferences, opinions, morality, knowledge, quirks and so on. The essence of romance is the intimate social interaction between two PEOPLE. It would take a long time to code an artifice of a whole human psyche. So the answer is economy/pragmatism. Romance takes too much of a sustained investment for payoff versus sex. Also in modding

[wokking56]

On 2/11/2019 at 11:49 PM, dagobaking said:

The existence of other bad behavior doesn't mean we should just ignore other cases. I understood your point about demographic sizes and there's logic behind that. But, it didn't account for other factors and hopefully you can understand why that would be a sore subject for some people.

I in no way intended to marginalize anyone's "persecution", by rationalizing that other parties have been slighted as well. You however dropped my main point in your quotation, that being "you can't give up because of a few negative comments".

 

 

I will however make one unpopular and controversial point right here.

In our increasingly SJW world we seem to care more about feelings than the facts. Every "oppressed" group wants to be protected from the bad people.

FACT: even in these progressive times there are still numerous a**holes that are not going to like something about you. Yet anyone with even half a brain realize that they are a**holes.

FEELING: they shouldn't be allowed to say crap like that it is hurtful. We need to curtail free speech that offend "my oppressed group".

 

cry me a river, build a bridge and F'n get over it already.

[dagobaking]

5 hours ago, wokking56 said:

I in no way intended to marginalize anyone's "persecution",

I could see that this wasn't your intention. That's why I acknowledged the logic behind your statement. But, nevertheless, even unintentionally, your statement DID marginalize that additional factor. And it's perfectly understandable that those affected by that factor would be the ones to point it out.

 

It's information to learn from. Not necessary to get defensive about it.

5 hours ago, wokking56 said:

You however dropped my main point in your quotation, that being "you can't give up because of a few negative comments".

Easy to say when its not an experience you go through. This comes off as patronizing.

5 hours ago, wokking56 said:

I will however make one unpopular and controversial point right here.

In our increasingly SJW world we seem to care more about feelings than the facts. Every "oppressed" group wants to be protected from the bad people.

Not sure who you are aiming this "controversial" point at. But, I am about as un-SJW as a person can possibly get.

 

You don't have to be SJW to acknowledge factual reasons why groups of people choose to do (or not do) things.