A what level can you add/delete mods safely

[Psalam]

I've been all over the threads since I've been here and seen all sorts of answers to the question, "at what level can I safely add or remove mods?" My personal experience has been that it appears to be entirely safe up through player level 8. It is too late by player level 25. Most mods that don't affect game play (like clothes/armor replacers) seem to be safer at higher levels. Things that basically have "quests" not so much so. So, I wanted to throw this question and see if there is any consensus that has developed?

[Warlock3000]

It's not about levels, it's about what was already loaded into the world. For example, it's pretty safe to remove armor mods - but it's less safe if you or any NPCs that have already been loaded in your vicinity at least once have it in their inventories, and even less safe if they have it equipped (especially if it had some enchantment attached.)

 

It may be safe to remove a house - as long as you don't load the save where you are in it.

 

This tool can help cleanup the save after removing mods: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/52363

Delete something with running scripts - this tool can handle it.

[SkyAddiction]

It's not level-dependent at all. Any change to installed mods with scripts can and eventually will cause problems, it's just a matter of time. Whether or not you notice at all or it completely breaks your save depends upon how much was baked into your save, and generally the longer you play after the mod removal, the more problems you'll see. Clean saving will help and often cause minimal problems if done well, but it's far better to keep an intact load order for an entire playthrough.

 

Mods with just textures, meshes, and an .esp can generally be removed without issue, though. Simple texture mods are perfectly fine to add and remove.

 

Good modded game practice means developing a core set of mods you always use and building your game with that. Once you have it, make a convenient save, and only then start adding mods you intend to test or otherwise evaluate for future inclusion in your core set. This way you can simply uninstall them when you're done and revert to your save before your forked your game without having to clean save. It's cleaner and allows you to keep your game much longer, as well as conveniently allowing you to skip things like Bleak Falls Barrow for the 30th time.

 

Of course none of this matters all that much if you don't particularly care about restarting. I'm a pretty good example of that, since I rarely carry a save past level 25-30 before I get bored and start adding/removing out of curiosity.

[27X]

Has nothing to do with levels.

 

Adding mods depends entirely on conflicts. IF there are no conflicts, you can add mods literally forever til you reach the limit.

 

It's never a good time to delete mods that have scripts. Ever. Period. Ever. You can add, you can't take away anything that touches a save. Generic assets and graphics only assets are fine. Anything that touches or runs code, or in any way edits a record or a framework, you're fucking with fire and will eventually burn you.

[Grey Cloud]

So the consensus is that it has nothing to do with levels.

 

To me there is far too much worrying and general bullshit over this entire add/remove mods issue. It's a computer game - it is not life-threatening. Make a save. Make your changes. If the game goes tits then either roll-back or move on. Simple.

[yatol]

21 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

So the consensus is that it has nothing to do with levels.

 

To me there is far too much worrying and general bullshit over this entire add/remove mods issue. It's a computer game - it is not life-threatening. Make a save. Make your changes. If the game goes tits then either roll-back or move on. Simple.

it's fine if you don't crash loading the save?

because of that bullshit so many have so many problems

 

start the game with obis, cwo, requiem, anything that edit stuff that get in your save when the game start itself (quests with start game enabled, persistent stuff, leveled lists...)

remove the mod

you are able to load the save? so what?

you'll get stuck during the civil war like so many, or crash entering an area you already went (because game pick npc x from mod y leveled list, and without mod y, random result), or have negative weapon damage because of a requiem debuff that wasn't unload right

or something else you may only see weeks or months after removing the mod, so you will never figure out to no longer crash, you have to put back that mod in your load order

 

 

[Psalam]

55 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

So the consensus is that it has nothing to do with levels.

 

To me there is far too much worrying and general bullshit over this entire add/remove mods issue. It's a computer game - it is not life-threatening. Make a save. Make your changes. If the game goes tits then either roll-back or move on. Simple.

 

19 minutes ago, yatol said:

it's fine if you don't crash loading the save?

because of that bullshit so many have so many problems

 

start the game with obis, cwo, requiem, anything that edit stuff that get in your save when the game start itself (quests with start game enabled, persistent stuff, leveled lists...)

remove the mod

you are able to load the save? so what?

you'll get stuck during the civil war like so many, or crash entering an area you already went (because game pick npc x from mod y leveled list, and without mod y, random result), or have negative weapon damage because of a requiem debuff that wasn't unload right

or something else you may only see weeks or months after removing the mod, so you will never figure out to no longer crash, you have to put back that mod in your load order

 

 

What I see here is a difference in gaming philosophy. As I understand Yatol the problem with GreyCloud's approach is that it often takes 10-15 levels of game play to see the problem with changing mods. If you are into the game qua game then, so what? You enjoyed 10-15 (or more or less) levels. Just go back to the initial save and do something else. However, if I understand Yatol (and I may just be projecting here because it tends to be the way I think) I tend to look at achieving things in Skyrim as "goals." When these goals are made unachievable by CTDs or game freezes or whatever it dramatically lessens my enjoyment of the game. Therefore, if there is a consensus guideline I would love to hear it (or any other advice as was given above). ?

[Uncle64]

As other says, dont remove mods during game, you can remove and add textures.

 

And dont use that old save cleaner on modern mods that creates temp script it cant handle them well.

Use FallRimTools or PdtWrapper instead.

[Grey Cloud]

54 minutes ago, yatol said:

it's fine if you don't crash loading the save?

because of that bullshit so many have so many problems

 

start the game with obis, cwo, requiem, anything that edit stuff that get in your save when the game start itself (quests with start game enabled, persistent stuff, leveled lists...)

remove the mod

you are able to load the save? so what?

you'll get stuck during the civil war like so many, or crash entering an area you already went (because game pick npc x from mod y leveled list, and without mod y, random result), or have negative weapon damage because of a requiem debuff that wasn't unload right

or something else you may only see weeks or months after removing the mod, so you will never figure out to no longer crash, you have to put back that mod in your load order

 

 

Yes but it is still only a computer game. Is someone's life going to be ruined because they can't complete the civil war quest for the 7 zillionth time? Myself I have never done the vanilla game, I prefer a more free-style approach. If my game crashes or whatever I either fix it or move on.

 

30 minutes ago, Psalam said:

it often takes 10-15 levels of game play to see the problem with changing mods

At that remove, how can you be sure it was the mod change which caused the problem? Not saying you can't, just asking how. I actually see this the other way round. Sometimes I make a change which causes my game to wobble for a while* and then it sorts itself out.

* nowhere near 10-15 levels, more like a few hours of gameplay or a week or two of Tamriel time.

[Psalam]

14 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Yes but it is still only a computer game. Is someone's life going to be ruined because they can't complete the civil war quest for the 7 zillionth time? Myself I have never done the vanilla game, I prefer a more free-style approach. If my game crashes or whatever I either fix it or move on.

 

At that remove, how can you be sure it was the mod change which caused the problem? Not saying you can't, just asking how. I actually see this the other way round. Sometimes I make a change which causes my game to wobble for a while* and then it sorts itself out.

* nowhere near 10-15 levels, more like a few hours of gameplay or a week or two of Tamriel time.

In my case it goes back to that save game you suggested (and I have also done for years). I load it (from before playing a "new" mod) and play 20-30 levels or more without the problem. Eventually I'll tire of that game and go back to the save and try something else. Having said that, my question then becomes, since my experience is that the further I am into a game, how far can I go before making that "baseline" save. My "goto" save is just after completing Helgen, but, as a rule, my first 15-20 levels of gameplay always involve doing (roughly) the same things. An "ideal" place for me, for a "baseline" save would be at about level 20-25. As I've mentioned, I've had no success with that. 

[Uncle64]

If your save that you use is free from mods you can play up to 8-9 lvl. Around there do the DLC:s start. Heartfire starts at LVL 1.

My self uses one male lvl 64 that have done vanilla Skyrim. Works fine that to. Easy to change Sex and stuff. You can lose some progress but you get that back fast.

 

What you can do is do the first Dragon quest so you get the first shout. Dont do anything more.

After that you can play the game as you like and you can collect all words and dragon souls as you like, dont start civil war or any other main quest lines.

Kill some bears/bandits and stuff for lvl, dont pick up any named things.

And you will have one good base save.

 

[Psalam]

2 minutes ago, Uncle64 said:

If your save that you use is free from mods you can play up to 8-9 lvl. Around there do the DLC:s start. Heartfire starts at LVL 1.

My self uses one male lvl 64 that have done vanilla Skyrim. Works fine that to. Easy to change Sex and stuff. You can lose some progress but you get that back fast.

 

What you can do is do the first Dragon quest so you get the first shout. Dont do anything more.

After that you can play the game as you like and you can collect all words and dragon souls as you like, dont start civil war or any other main quest lines.

Kill some bears/bandits and stuff for lvl, dont pick up any named things.

And you will have one good base save.

 

Thanks. That's basically what I've been doing lately except that I have started the Companions questline - and it seems to be stable. Most of the generically enchanted items like long bow of fire (or whatever it is) don't seem to cause any problems either. So level 8-9ish confirms my experience. Thanks a lot Uncle64! ?

[Grey Cloud]

Interesting. I would never have thought of using a save that way. My saves are more for when I die than technicals. I don't really use a baseline save either. I use Alternate Start LAL and save in the prison once all my MCMs have loaded. Maybe do another one once I've configured the MCMs. Next one is on arrival at my starting location then it's whenever I remember or feel the need.

I've done it differently in my current game but usually I start in Markarth as it is handy for the Lover's Stone. As a rule I wouldn't leave Markarth until about level 10 as my Skyrim is a very violent place and I don't use followers. Once I get the Lover's Stone blessing I might head toward Whiterun for some training (from a mod) and depending upon how brave I'm feeling I will travel on foot or take the bus (I very rarely fast travel and I don't use horses).

 

Edit: Just seen the last couple of posts. I don't do much of the vanilla stuff so 'not applicable'. I use 'Timing is Everything' and a couple of other mods to fix when, or if, things kick in. 

[Uncle64]

1 minute ago, Grey Cloud said:

Interesting. I would never have thought of using a save that way. My saves are more for when I die than technicals. I don't really use a baseline save either. I use Alternate Start LAL and save in the prison once all my MCMs have loaded. Maybe do another one once I've configured the MCMs. Next one is on arrival at my starting location then it's whenever I remember or feel the need.

I've done it differently in my current game but usually I start in Markarth as it is handy for the Lover's Stone. As a rule I wouldn't leave Markarth until about level 10 as my Skyrim is a very violent place and I don't use followers. Once I got the Lover's Stone blessing I might head toward Whiterun for some training (from a mod) and depending upon how brave I'm feeling I will travel on foot or take the bus (I very rarely fast travel and I don't use horses).

That works to, but then you have saved all your mods in the game already. And if you load that save later whit other mods your will not be able to play wery long before you will run in to trouble as Yatol did say to.

 

And you cant do anything about it, perhaps some first aid that works for some time but no more.

[valcon767]

well this is just one persons opinion and it is in 2 parts

 

1 - if you use ANY mods that REQUIRE a new game start for them to work correctly (AS-LAL and a few more do this) there is NO possible base save game possible.

     these mods do things during the time between when you select new game (at main menu) and when you first appear in the game, and this only happens once in 

     a game.  once you have appeared in the game they cannot do those things properly anymore.

 

2 - if you are not using those style mods what i would do is do the main quest up to completing "Before the Storm", do not actually do Bleak Falls Barrow (so you can

     choose to have dragons in your game if you want but they are not automatically there).  do NOT start any other major questlines (Companions, Civil War, etc).

     muck around killing general stuff (bandits, critters) and maybe some base item crafting until you hit a level you like.  if you have a known issue (such as the 

     Hearthfires bug that can prevent you becoming Thane of Falkreath) also do what is required to avoid that, provided it does not require a major questline start.

     use that as a baseline save.

 

just my personal opinion there.

 

be aware that Dawnguard starts at level 8, and Hearthfires actually starts sending stuff to PC at level 9.

[Nazzzgul666]

54 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Yes but it is still only a computer game. Is someone's life going to be ruined because they can't complete the civil war quest for the 7 zillionth time? Myself I have never done the vanilla game, I prefer a more free-style approach. If my game crashes or whatever I either fix it or move on.

 

At that remove, how can you be sure it was the mod change which caused the problem? Not saying you can't, just asking how. I actually see this the other way round. Sometimes I make a change which causes my game to wobble for a while* and then it sorts itself out.

* nowhere near 10-15 levels, more like a few hours of gameplay or a week or two of Tamriel time.

One of the rare cases where i agree with Yatol, actually not beeing able to load a save imho is the second best outcome (after working fine ;)). What's much worse imo is when you uninstall a mod and notice that something else (like script updates for quests, or just some features) doesn't work anymore 50 hours later. I didn't do the civil war 7 trillion times, i did it once.^^ Same for most other vanilla quests and quest mods either, with few exceptions. I hate to do the same stuff* again and again, but when a quest required to see the story i've never seen before broke 30 hours earlier... no way around that. Or features i definitly want to have in my game like cursed loots rape mechanics and at some point i notice they don't trigger anymore.

 

*stuff here means rather stories than minor actions. Obviously i don't stop hitting a bandit with my sword after the first strike just because it becomes repetetive.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

I can speak from experience that removing mods after exploring a lot, or meeting a fair number of NPCs of any type, almost always causes problems that ruin the save. No matter how well I clean it up. Adding new mods, so long as they don't cause critical conflicts with other mods, is usually safe. Emphasis on "usually." Skyrim, even with every patch, tweak, and fix possible, is not terribly stable when you begin adding mods. It's not even that stable without mods.

[Psalam]

2 minutes ago, valcon767 said:

well this is just one persons opinion and it is in 2 parts

 

1 - if you use ANY mods that REQUIRE a new game start for them to work correctly (AS-LAL and a few more do this) there is NO possible base save game possible.

     these mods do things during the time between when you select new game (at main menu) and when you first appear in the game, and this only happens once in 

     a game.  once you have appeared in the game they cannot do those things properly anymore.

 

2 - if you are not using those style mods what i would do is do the main quest up to completing "Before the Storm", do not actually do Bleak Falls Barrow (so you can

     choose to have dragons in your game if you want but they are not automatically there).  do NOT start any other major questlines (Companions, Civil War, etc).

     muck around killing general stuff (bandits, critters) and maybe some base item crafting until you hit a level you like.  if you have a known issue (such as the 

     Hearthfires bug that can prevent you becoming Thane of Falkreath) also do what is required to avoid that, provided it does not require a major questline start.

     use that as a baseline save.

 

just my personal opinion there.

 

be aware that Dawnguard starts at level 8, and Hearthfires actually starts sending stuff to PC at level 9.

So we come back to level 8. Why not start the Companions (Jorrvaskr is my go to place for storage early in the game) questline - at least the VERY beginning? I admit most of my earliest stuff if killing bandits in the general vicinity of Whiterun (Halted Stream, White River Watch, etc.). Other than the Companions I would be happy to wait (unless you know of another safe place to store stuff early?

[Psalam]

2 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

I can speak from experience that removing mods after exploring a lot, or meeting a fair number of NPCs of any type, almost always causes problems that ruin the save. No matter how well I clean it up. Adding new mods, so long as they don't cause critical conflicts with other mods, is usually safe. Emphasis on "usually." Skyrim, even with every patch, tweak, and fix possible, is not terribly stable when you begin adding mods. It's not even that stable without mods.

You. YOU. YOU!!! You've ruined me. You're advice is sound but I can't even say Bugthe.. I mean Bugme... never mind, the people who made Skyrim. All that comes out is Bugthesda and it's all YOUR fault. (This is going to require some serious therapy).  ?

[Ernest Lemmingway]

4 minutes ago, Psalam said:

You. YOU. YOU!!! You've ruined me. You're advice is sound but I can't even say Bugthe.. I mean Bugme... never mind, the people who made Skyrim. All that comes out is Bugthesda and it's all YOUR fault. (This is going to require some serious therapy).  ?

 Sorry. Just speaking the facts.

[Psalam]

1 minute ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

 Sorry. Just speaking the facts.

Not really your fault. I think they call that "speaking truth to power." Fortunately I know a good therapist with "cheap" rates.  ?

[valcon767]

13 minutes ago, Psalam said:

So we come back to level 8. Why not start the Companions (Jorrvaskr is my go to place for storage early in the game) questline - at least the VERY beginning? I admit most of my earliest stuff if killing bandits in the general vicinity of Whiterun (Halted Stream, White River Watch, etc.). Other than the Companions I would be happy to wait (unless you know of another safe place to store stuff early?

if you play through the Vanilla start (Helgen) and actually go to Riverwood with Ralof or Hadvar you have safe storage in Riverwood.  to be specific if you followed Ralof

out of Helgen and follow him to Riverwood, Gerdur gives you a key to her house, and there is 2 chests, at least 5 other pieces of furniture in there you can use.

under vanilla conditions i have never seen the furniture respawn, the barrels yes but the actual furniture no (i could be wrong here but i have not seen the furniture 

respawn ever in there under vanilla conditions).  if you followed Hadvar you get Alvor's house available (1 chest and some furniture again).

that does require you to walk from Helgen to Riverwood with whichever mutt you followed out of Helgen with.

 

 

edit 

the reason i learned these spots was due to initially playing Skyrim on console (x360), and having to find somewhere to lighten up at ASAP.

on console there is no other way (packrat tendencies) to move worth a dang.  strip Helgen of everything you can later sell, make that long slow

walk and you will FIND a way to avoid having to walk that slowly to Whiterun to finish selling junk.

end edit

 

[Psalam]

Just now, valcon767 said:

if you play through the Vanilla start (Helgen) and actually go to Riverwood with Ralof or Hadvar you have safe storage in Riverwood.  to be specific if you followed Ralof

out of Helgen and follow him to Riverwood, Gerdur gives you a key to her house, and there is 2 chests, at least 5 other pieces of furniture in there you can use.

under vanilla conditions i have never seen the furniture respawn, the barrels yes but the actual furniture no (i could be wrong here but i have not seen the furniture 

respawn ever in there under vanilla conditions).  if you followed Hadvar you get Alvor's house available (1 chest and some furniture again).

of that does require you to walk from Helgen to Riverwood with whichever mutt you followed out of Helgen with.

 

Thanks. I hate going back to Riverwood but if that helps allow me to do a "baseline" start (and have it be stable) at ~level 8 then that's what I'll do. Thank you everyone for the advice. I will continue to read here (don't know if anyone else will) and see if someone else has anything to add. ?

[Grey Cloud]

37 minutes ago, Uncle64 said:

That works to, but then you have saved all your mods in the game already. And if you load that save later whit other mods your will not be able to play wery long before you will run in to trouble as Yatol did say to.

 

And you cant do anything about it, perhaps some first aid that works for some time but no more.

I disagree. I can't remember the last time I had to abandon a game because I'd broken it beyond repair. Every playthrough I do I chop and change mods to a lesser or greater degree.

 

I'm only partly joking here but I'm convinced that a large part of my game's stability comes from me having most of the vanilla stuff turned off or ignored. No snow, ice or rain; no dragons or vampires; I don't do the Companions, TG, DB or Mage College. The only daedric I do is Dawnstar. 

[Grey Cloud]

56 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

What's much worse imo is when you uninstall a mod and notice that something else (like script updates for quests, or just some features) doesn't work anymore 50 hours later.

Fair comment but again I don't see it as something which affects me.