Sexlab Adventures

[Recoilsuave]

I like the idea of long term consequences. One I'd like to see is a severe debuff to XP gain for a configurable amount of time to imitate a character's reluctance to actually go adventuring for a while. There could also be skill debuffs as well. I don't know if it's possible, but a way to cure debuffs by actually leveling a skill up indicating your character has overcome their trauma.

 

I absolutely hate DD dependencies. Even a soft one becomes a hard one when you have multiple mods with them which then requires you to download and install the DD assets. Besides, there's already Deviously Cursed Loot, which I tend to consider Adventures as a non-DD replacement for it. Once combat rape is in, it practically will be, and quite a welcome replacement in my opinion.

 

I used to use Defeat, but it hasn't been updated in years, and crashed far too often for my tastes. I like how it handles rapes though. It handles followers, NPCs, and the PC; rapes can be triggered immediately on surrender or bleedout or after combat ends depending on settings. My favorite feature is that it allows your character to rape other NPCs when they go into bleedout. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, after all

 

Robbery scenarios tend to bug out when dealing with non-unique NPCs, so having it as optional would be nice. Another post defeat scenario could be forced prostitution. Your skills (except Speech) are floored, you're sent to a random city, and forced to whore yourself out until you acquire enough gold to buy your stuff back from your rapists. Afterwards you get your stuff back from a spawned in pimp who follows you around to make sure you don't go back to a respawned dungeon where the original rapists have vanished. Oh, and your original gold is gone, all configurable, of course.

[General Neondaze]

1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

I am generally in favour of doing things differently than other mods, so it would be nice if Sexlab Adventures could put its own spin on this, although I am not quite sure how. One way could be to not actually focus on the preventing death / health threshold part, but to focus on the other ways to get defeated. So the whole point of the feature is not to prevent game overs. That doesn’t mean there could not be any health based ones though. Examples could be all hits dealing at least X damage, taking x damage within 5 seconds or even any health damage taken at all. Although you might want to ask “why not just have all of this?”

As a solution for the immediate game over, is it possible to use a delay mechanic so that the rape can take place, and once over, the game over continues? This will simulate death by rape!

 

1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

One potential issue here are hostile NPCs and creatures that walk into the area of the gangrape and how to track them. We don’t want them to cause a riot.

Is it possible for a cloaking spell be used for the duration of the rape that places any 'new' actors temporarily into the same faction as the rapists?

 

1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

A cool thing would of course be enslavement or captivity, but that looks to be rather complex on its own. Besides, it has similar issues concerning what happens afterwards. The player must escape somehow for the game to continue after all.

Enslavement could be linked to existing slave mods. If there are no slave mods installed, then a consequence similar to jail time, or add a lock pick to inventory.

 

1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

Long-term consequences

This is definitely a player choice scenario. Apropos2 has a consequence mechanic within wear and tear, so either tap into that or have some drastically different consequences.

[tuxagent7]

1 hour ago, HexBolt8 said:

Teutonic, I think your idea of not actually preventing defeat could be the way to go.  Instead of competing with DA, Defeat, or Dragonborn In Distress, you'd supplement them by adding the possibility of an early end to combat.  Adventures would work alongside a combat defeat mod. 

Yup i would really like that

[HexBolt8]

Nazzzgul666's comments got me thinking.  Speaking only for myself of course but I'm actually quite happy with Defeat.  Despite its age it works very well for me; it's feature-rich and loaded with customization options.  To me it just has two shortcomings.

 

Only one method of defeat works for me.  I can't get knockdown and bleedout to work reliably together.  I must choose one.  If another mod, such as this one, could kick in prior to Defeat's bleedout outcome that would offer another way to lose.  I think the large majority of people will want Adventures combat rape to replace rather than supplement combat defeat mods, and I respect that, but Teutonic expressed the desire to do something different and not necessarily prevent player death so a rape loss, somewhere short of outright defeat, could "stack" with other mods.  

 

Of Defeat's various post-loss outcomes, it's missing any sort fucktoy scenario -- something like Nazzzgul666 described above.  That's nagged at me.  If you blunder into an enemy's lair and get defeated, while don't they keep you for a while?  With the interesting possibilities for escape or eventually getting sold if that's not possible.  I've been looking at DiD as an alternative, but it's almost Defeat's mirror image.   It has the fucktoy outcome but no alternatives besides rescue, and little customizability.

 

Customization is key for me.  Defeat lets me choose the probably for theft.  I have options for which items are taken.  (I prefer the value-based one.  A bandit won't want mountain flowers and my smelly unenchanted shoes but he'll take anything that sells for more than a few coins.)  It leaves quest items untouched so it doesn't break quests.  I can pick whether there's a time limit before my stolen items disappear and what that time period is.  If I want my stuff back I have to fight for it (I'm not a fan of the thing where your stuff gets "sold" to a merchant and you can buy it all back for free sex or a tiny fraction of its value).  That's a lot of stuff for a replacement to take on, assuming that it wanted to.  

 

For me, personally, if Adventures takes the replacement route then it would have to surpass Defeat and the many features that it offers, a large undertaking.  That said, if it did so it would be truly great, and offer players a defeat mod that's being maintained.  But doing something different, supplementing and enhancing rather than replacing, seems better to me.

[Reesewow]

In terms of something I would use - I would likely be looking for a supplement for Defeat rather than an outright replacement.  Mostly because I'm very happy with the settings I use in Defeat and how despite its age it still functions just fine for what I use it for - the only major issue I have with it is that it can generate "impossible" combinations of creatures and humanoids in a sex scene, but that is more of a overall Sexlab problem.  However, I don't think supplement/replacement are mutually exclusive goals - with a robust set of trigger options, it should be possible for multiple combat defeat mods to function in the same environment if a user is careful.

 

1. Defeat trigger - I think it would be good for Adventures to have some "unique" trigger options, especially for those that want Defeat to cover stuff like bleedout.  However, I wouldn't ignore the more boring triggers either - they are widely used for good reason, as they often work well and make sense to users.  Some other combat triggers could be:

• Taking damage while weapon is sheathed
• Taking damage while sprinting
• Low magicka % level (mental exhaustion) and taking spell damage

 

 

3. Immediate consequences - I'm sure that what people want here will differ hugely, so this may just be best doing what you want and hope others like it.  I know from personal experience that I'm likely to just reload the game if a mod triggers a "consequence" that will take me a whole game session to work my way out of - usually I have goals in mind when playing and don't want a huge captivity scenario surprising me if I've already played through it a few times before. 

 

I think my personal ideal scenario would be something where after being defeated - the party is in a traumatized state and needs to clear a shortish mini game. 

 

That mini game could be something like the player being tied up with rope and needing to struggle out of it - but only while a guard NPC is distracted (could be via notification). 

 

Another option would be that the player needs to get X distance away from the leader NPC (possibly the one that triggered the defeat scenario), and can only move when they aren't being watched, which would make a lot more sense vs creatures.  If you fail the mini game, you trigger a new round of sex scenes and get more duration/severity on your debuffs and need to try again.  Too many fails could lead to an alternate outcome, and the game could get easier for each failure.

 

 

4. Long term consequences - I'm not a huge fan of gameplay related long term consequences, but I do love the idea of "immersive" consequences to your PC's mental state.  Things like comments the player might make to themselves, notifications after sleeping that you had a nightmare, NPCs making comments, and "flavour-text" debuffs with minor effects are more what I would enjoy personally.  Even those I think should have a duration or a way to resolve them over a long period of time just to give the player some options to clear up things they may find annoying.

 

 

Either way, good luck!

[Imperfected]

Thoughts on Combat Rape/Consequences:

 

Triggers

I think an interesting approach would be having a selection of simple (on/off, maybe percentage chance where appropriate) triggers that cause combat rape.  An example would be if the character becomes Paralyzed it could short-circuit straight to rape, whereas if the character becomes Poisoned there's a scaling chance it goes to rape.  You could have similar triggers for a variety of things (staggered by power attack, knocked down by physics effect, hit with a Shock-type effect while out of Magicka or a Frost-type effect while out of Stamina, etc.).

 

Alternately, I think what could be very interesting--if possibly over-scoped, not knowing the particulars of the game's code--would be having a completely separate discrete "combat system" for handling combat rape. I'll try to lay out an example here without waxing on too long:

 

1. Give the character a "Rape Defense" variable, which is basically a health pool for how difficult it is for someone to rape them.  There are varying ways to increase this variable--including wearing more armor/clothing, having certain traits or spell-effects (ie, being a werewolf at the time, wielding the Mace of Molaag Baal, whatever)--and quite a few more ways to decrease it, from being drunk, to being aroused, to suffering from trauma from previous events.  (This would even allow for a supplemental mod that adds "sexual" Perks/Gear or the like to interact with this.)

 

Receiving attacks from enemies in combat reduces this value.  If you wanted to go nuts, you could have moddable "Rape Attack" values, so that players can decide for themselves which creatures/factions are more "rape-y" than others, for example giving Chaurus a super high modifier, or even to have it interact with other systems (ie, a character who's been raped by Falmer might be more vulnerable to attacks by Falmer in the future, or a character wearing the Saviour's Hide might be more likely to get raped by Animals and Hunters).

 

As a bonus that's probably way out of scope for the mod, you could also make it so that as a character loses Rape Defense in combat they actually get their armor/clothing stripped, as a kind of diagetic "health bar" to see how close the character is to getting assaulted.

 

To recover their Rape Defense, a character would need time, but might not be able to recover fully if suffering from trauma...  or might even have to do special things to fully recover, if that trauma has resulted in some kind of mental condition.  (The character cannot recover fully without getting drunk, the character cannot recover fully in the dark, etc.)

 

2. Give the character a "Trauma" variable, which increases when the character gets raped and at certain thresholds results in added conditions or long-term effects.  A character that doesn't cross the trauma threshold can basically just get up and continue on with their adventure; a character that crosses the threshold gets into the "resolving event" (majorly debuffed, passed out and waking up somewhere else, captured, Game Over, etc.) territory, and also accumulates long-term consequences related to the rapist, cell location, conditions (night/day), or whatever other easy metric you can use to make it feel a bit less than completely random.

 

3. Make the "Resist" system simple: the character is given the choice to Resist, which will replenish some Rape Defense but increase the amount of Trauma suffered if they still lose, or Submit, which will cause the character to suffer less Trauma gained.   (Also note that Resisting probably shouldn't recover any Health, Stamina, or Magicka; if you keep trying to Resist when you're in no shape to fight, you've chosen a noble death, comrade.) This can, again, tie into long-term consequences and character traits: a character who Submits often could gradually lose Rape Defense but suffer progressively less Trauma gained as well, and vice-versa (a character who successfully Resists could gain more Rape Defense but become more succeptible to future Trauma, lowering the required threshold).

 

So, basically if you wanted, you could play a bikini-clad warrior who easily submits to enemies but walks it off like it's no big deal afterwards...  or a fully-armored knight who fights off rapists tooth and nail, but gets horribly traumatized if it ever happens.  You could also track these values and use them in other places in the mod (for example, having characters gain flags like "Submissive" or "Broken" that make non-combat rape events more likely to trigger, or just using Rape Defense to make probability checks for events).

[HexBolt8]

Adding to Reesewow's list of possible combat triggers, losing X percent of total health from a single hit (physical or magical).  Ideally any trigger would only have a configurable chance of firing.  

 

I like the idea of nightmares as flavor text.  If you had a bad experience with draugr, you probably have bad dreams about them (text could mention the subject of the dream). 

[Darkwing241]

5 hours ago, Teutonic said:

4. Long-term consequences

 

Considering it is often “not that bad” in combat rape scenarios (for us, it is mostly just another sex scene, which is kinda the point), I have been thinking about real consequences that will actually impact the game and it is something I refer to as traumas (the name is not final though). These are permanent debuffs that will stick with you for the rest of the game. I envision them as being somewhat reminiscent of the event that triggered them and somewhat varied. For example, if you get raped in a creepy dark place, you get terrified of creepy dark places and get lower movement speed for example or are forced to sneak if in a creepy dark place. Or if you get raped by a pack of wolves, you get terrified of wolves and get some sort of combat debuff against them, for example. Occasional nightmares will make you uneasy, slowing down your skill growth, analogous to the well-rested effect, etc.

 

I like the idea of phobia's but sweet Jesus can we do literally anything other than speed debuffs?

 

a 10% debuff is a bigger combat debuff than a 50% skill reduction.  On top of that, slow walking simulator is not fun skyrim gameplay and its certainly not sexy.  Speed debuffs are also the single most used debuff in kink mods and they stack incredibly poorly.

 

Race/species specific trauma's would work great though.

 

-get raped by an imperial

-gain "imperial phobia" 

-talk to/fight an imperial 

-trigger a temporary -X debuff to a skill

-now the PLAYER is "afraid" of that category of enemy, and will actively avoid them as a normal part of game play.

-Skyrim game play is still possible

 

You could add a ton of diversity/explorability/replayability with this system by gaining different types of "phobia" with each defeat selected at random and giving them flavorful names.  

 

Nervous Twitch: You magic gestures are impaired -X to one category of spells

Panic attacks: Your sudden gasping breath gives you away when sneaking  -X to sneak

Stutter: You can't get your words out clearly -X to speech

Forgetfulness: You learn less from your mistakes -X% xp gain

Blurred vision:  -x archery

Claustrophobia: You feel panicked struck in this metal shell -X heavy armor

Loss of Faith: your faith in your god is diminished, how could they let this happen to you? -X restoration, or maybe block shrine bonuses?

 

 

You could also mix at match back at the phobia level as well.  Maybe the phobia could trigger based on location type or something else?  Maybe sometimes its a specific phobia, and then sometimes its just a random generalized anxiety.

 

-Places: dungeons/taverns/whiterun

-Creature type: Draugr/Wolves/Nords

-Sex: Male/Female (this one probably wouldn't be much fun, I don't you could actually play to avoid these, and it would just turn into an "always on" debuff)

-Anorexia: food/potions

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Corsayr]

A couple of people have mentioned the idea of making something that wouldn't replace mods like defeat but would add other types of "unsuccessful combat resolutions". 

 

I worry that this idea would be very buggy. Trying to get two unsuccessful combat resolution mods to work and play nicely together has never been very successful in the past. (like Defeat and DA).

 

my preference would be for a full replacement path so you only need the one mod. 

 

Just my 2 septums on that topic. ?

[worik]

6 hours ago, Teutonic said:

Occasional nightmares will make you uneasy

Longterm.... Nightmares....

 

?

How about making them a radiant questy thing? Something like sleepwalking? Randomly forcing you (teleport) into a strange location and finding your way out?

Something like the journey into dreamworld of mad Pelagius? You can't die but you have to find your way out? Maybe a clock ticking?

I could imagine some kind of escape game, but that would require a lot of work to design the "dreamland" .

 

Now, that I think about it, it sounds too much for just one feature.

 

[MasterPiece300]

Hmmm here are my thoughts on combat defeat:

 

1) The defeat mod basically has everything perfected when it comes down to combat rape. Other mods that implemented this feature is simply a variation of the same mechanics with different twist as to what happens after defeated.

 

My suggestion would be that if you must implement a combat defeat system in the mod would be to add your own twist to it. Here are two possible scenarios:

 

- Escape mini game: as others suggested, you can implement a scenario where PC is tied down and must make periodic attempts at escape. The scenario would have it that the PC “finds” a sharp object (sharp rock?) on the ground or something have the player tap the activate key (A button on a controller) to escape. The captors would immediately turn hostile and the scenario would repeat itself. Of course immediately after being defeated the PC would be gangraped. The problem with this scenario though is that there would have to be a designated location in which the PC is taken in a dungeon or current location which would get complicated. Followers either get auto defeated or must fight until defeated.

 

A trauma state could be implemented here but should not be something permanent and should last some 8 hours or the whole day (game time). The trauma state would obviously reduce combat abilities and accumulate with repeated defeats to a maximum value.

 

- Game over rape: a more simpler scenario (as you suggested) in that all those in combat with the PC would perform a gangrape on the PC (and followers if any) followed by a game over. Additional NPCs or so could be spawned in to add to the duration or complexity of the gangrape. This scenario would also work best with multi actor animations of which the defeat mod does quite well. Alternatively, you can make it so that PC and followers are simply transported to the start of the dungeon. You can also make the game over part be chanced based with a simple message saying that the PC was enslaved and some other interesting bit of story explaining what happened to PC.

 

- Rescued: some legendary hero or powerful warrior could just come in and save PC of which the PC can offer sex or gold as a reward. Of course the hero could just be a mercenary there plundering the dungeon and just sells off the PC as a slave which of course would lead to enslavement scenarios. This of course could tie in with the escape mini game

 

2) As for the gangrape scenario, when encountering enemies simply scan the area for hostiles and either add them to the gangrape if they are not hostile to the rapist(s)’ faction or if they engage in combat with the PC or rapist the scenario is simply interrupted with the PC having a chance to escape. Once again the defeat mod does this well.

 

3 and 4) While my previous suggestion would indicate immediate consequences of what would happen after a gangrape, for long term consequences that would go more into enslavement scenarios. Anything too simple for long term consequences would just not be as entertaining.

 

Final thoughts: I don’t see a point in adding combat defeat since the defeat mod does that feature quite well unless of course you plan on elaborating more on that mod’s idea. Enslavement scenarios could be a feature added to the mod but may be best in a separate mod, ultimately its up to you.

[TwiceSwords]

Spoiler

---I like a simple being essential and having a treshold which will be %1 for me. With defeat i almost always die before getting into action with %20 treshold i had to set it %50 to get into action and i don't like it that high.

 

---I like defeat but i always wanted more than just the same dialog, the humiliation is missing.

 

---I want a lot of dialog variety for the same situation if possible.

 

---what the mod must have is to disable option all the long aftermaths for the people dont like them.

 

---for the long term consequences i think being naked without anything to force the character to find a single piece of cloth so she has to enter a city naked is along is huge. And on her way to a city she will be naked a vulnerable target to encounters for this i am again being pushed to play a mage because i will have my base magicka pool and spells but if i am a warrior i will only have my fists or starter spell to hit with undeveloped destruction skill so maybe a magicka debuff for a little while to balance things out.

 

---i would love long term consequences against creatures to be just stop and cry when you see a spider for example (character was used by a spider before and have a debuff now that she will stop and cry unable to think some sort of arachnophobia). Then spider will just come and take what he wants. A primivite instinct and a primitive fear results in a primitive act. Defeat had an animation where the player character will scream and cover her head while crouching. I assume you can make something like this by forcing player to sneak and lock move. I don't know how to feel about literal sneak. But maybe you can use blackout as a faint when feared creatures come a little close, just to wake up to be fucked by the nightmare of character and reset the debuff timer to its max or just add another same one if it is easier for you.

 

---Nazzzgul666's comments is perfect for me. It can also be like this;

   

    +++The bandits will tie the character up on the road but not for show this time, instead it will be a trap for the ones fool enough to think this bitch is abandoned and they can have fun with her. You can spawn some people (another bandit group, adventurer group, or just one random person.). They will encounter the tied up player on the road and the chances;

            ***the captors will be hiding nearby. If something attack them while the encounter is happening, if it is quest breaking maybe you can spawn them instead of hiding to ambush. Not immersive but i can get behind.

            ***they will have fun then get ambushed by the captor bandits.

            ***they will stop and consider their morales in order to get fun or rescue with some dialogs, they will get ambushed while the dialogs or after the result.

            ***they will try to rescue and get ambused (sometimes they will rescue even while taking hits it will cost their lives to rescue you just so you can escape naked.), if the rescuer is female they will also capture her. The enslavement of another npc can be buggy so i am not asking for this part, stable is what i prefer the most.

            ***MCM to set chances for the encounter type would be good.

   

    +++For the vampires (Vampire drain sex animations is good use for this one. Vampires will drain you as food and drain you sexually, there can be a speech debuff with timer after they are done because you are not charming anymore drained like that untill you eat food drin water and become health once again.);

           ***For every turn they have with player character will lose %10 percent health.

           ***After reaching %20 health the vampires will consider the character "not food anymore" and they will simply leave the character in the middle of a dungeon. Being left in the middle of a dungeon naked might be too much and pushing player to play as mage because they can not steal your spells away from you and you will have a raw desturction power with your raw magicka pool. Instead they can left the consumed body to ocean so character can face frostfall and try to find a shelter in the nearest place without any money. This scenario can lead brutal survival condition. I don't know why they would bother to drop the body to ocean but it is a decent outcome to me rahter than simple dialog and rape. For immersion they can drop the body simply in front of the cave as outcome.

   

    +++For imperials and stormcloaks;

          ***Lets say you are stormcloak and defeat by imperials.

          ***You will be spawned into a imperial camp to be used to stress relief untill one of them with good morals release you while it is his watch or something. I don't think it is possible to make all sleep except one, there is not even enough bedroll. So instead you can make one simply release the character with dialog. After release they will talk with each other;

                         Releaser imperial to character: "Don't talk just go."

                         An imperial to releaser imperial: "What are you doing ?!"

                         Releaser imperial to an imperial: "What ? Are you going to kill me over a whore ? Is that it... She is not our enemy. Enough of her pain."

   

    +++For necromancers:

          ***He will say "I will fill you with negative energy then you will be my black soul gem!" Rapes the player to darken her world then player will be teleported into soul cairn.

          ***If there is multiple necromancers they will attack each other first to have the power to themselves. The winner gets the black soul gem.

          ***In Soul Cairn; If player get to there in dawnguard quest line she can escape herself OR:

                        >>>If you can make player a part of soul cairn (won't be attacked by skeletons there and a soul like sm essential), there will be a soul waiting for you. A quest will start to show his place. Character will be sexually assaulted by any soul on the way (if you think this breaks vanilla you can spawn souls to do this). When character finally reaches him, he(strange soul) will say "souls here are always hungry and thirsty in all ways, i am sorry i can nothing do about their touch upon you. But this is the least i can do" He will save you from soul cairn. You are going to be spawned at a random place or where you were captured.

                       >>>If not, wait a little in soul carin then will be spawned some random place and find the necromancer dead under your feet. He will be defeated and the black soul gem is broken that is how you could escape. It was very short time for you because you were in soul cairn.

   

    +++For forsworns:

          ***They will say "You are in our territory, you need to be marked. Luckily we have just the pack for that."

          ***Character will wake up to a pack of wolfs and the forsworns. The dialog goes on as: "Have fun lads. Mark this bitch."

          ***After the wolfs are done it is forsworns' turn.

          ***After they have their turn and humiliating dialogs they will say "Now we will let you go if the bear at the entrance of the cave does. [Grins]"

                                                                                                                "Here have this axe and wear this [gives you forsworn armor]"

                                                                                                                "If you can make it to outside with what you have, people will know you survived us."

          ***At this point if player is strong enough try to sluaghter them all or just try beat the bear and run away and come back when equipped properly to have her belongings back. A quest marker for that bastard stole would work for this. If the player fails to beat the bear;

                       >>>bear will rape the character then character goes into blackout with dialogs like "this bitch is dying..." "how fragile..." "don't let her rot in here.. GET HER OUT!".

                       >>>character spawns in front of the cave or near an ocean to face brutal survival conditions or somewhere near the cave. I think situations like this it is best to be thrown to near to the cave because right in front of the cave there is sometimes a little camp and some bandits or forsworns.

 

[chipstick]

11 hours ago, Teutonic said:

I am going to share my thoughts on combat rape now. Feel free to share your input. Mostly I am interested in 

• What do you want to see / what do you expect
• What is nice to have, but not must-have
• What is something you are not interested in / would leave deactivated (Mostly in regards to what I am suggesting or what other mods have done. You don't need to tell me you don't want pink flowers growing out of your ass.)

  Reveal hidden contents

SNIP

Hey Teutonic,

 

That's a lot of detailed feedback you are receiving! It's a lot to digest. Hope I won't be adding too much to the existing mountain. Really excited you've worked your way to this current feature.

 

1) Re: short-term consequences

I would have to disagree with the belief that there MUST be some short-term consequences that prevent further engagement/combat rape. As you mentioned, the sex scenes are the draw of the mod, and sometimes we don't want it to end straight away (even if its teleportation to simple slavery etc). For example, my dream mod would mimic Goubo's SexlabDefeat to the extent that you are allowed to get back to your feet if other consequences are disabled (with a few seconds grace period before further hostilities), but with an additional feature where we can layer combat debuffs. So the result is a bit of a downward spiral where it gets progressively more difficult and you may have to withdraw from the dungeon, likely getting defeated and abused several times over before exiting.

 

The above would be achievable with the addition of Sexlab Disparity, or with your own addition of defeat debuffs (temporary or permanent). Please do consider allowing us to customise our defeat outcomes, rather than going with the position of it being a no-brainer that the player can't get up to try fighting again. Particularly since:

1) all that would be needed is the option of disable other outcomes via MCM tickboxes (I think! I'm not writing the mod myself after all);

2) it can still be "meaningful" by adding debuffs from either SL Adventures or other mods;

3) some of us would like to be able to have progressive downward spirals or just experience repeated sex scenes within the same dungeon.

 

2) If/when other aggressors stumble upon a combat defeat scene, please allow them to join in using  SL Adventures' existing functionality? I'd love if aggressors who join in this way are allowed to exceed the current 25-person limit, but I don't know the technical side of it.

 

3) Is there any way to start incorporating 4P and 5P gangbang scenes in addition to the currently supported 3P scenes? Again, I don't know how complicated this would be.

 

4) I quite like the idea of long-term or permanent debuffs, if configurable.

 

5) Re: supplementing rather than replacing other combat defeat mods

My initial thoughts are that  supplementing other mods is always a potential can of worms with regards to compatibility, depending on what you're trying to achieve. I do believe there needs to be a core that stands up by itself and hence could replace other combat defeat mods as needed.  This is a very broad thought I'm having, so probably not that helpful...

 

PS: Have I already mentioned several times before about how great SL Adventures is, plus how grateful I am its still continually being worked on, and goes well with simple in-place upgrading on existing saves? Yes? I must mention it all again then.

 

 

 

 

 

[Vithiss]

Just a couple of ideas, not sure that they're good ones but maybe they will inspire:

 

a twist on the combat part might be something like a check at aggro-gain (configurable) so that some enemies will want to capture from the start, rather than fighting; perhaps just one "attempt" or periodic but not changing normal combat AI until/unless the capture works and the capture works or it doesn't, no struggles etc.; this might allow SLA and other mods, like Defeat, to work "together" because they aren't actually interacting

 

for those of us who don't use DD enslavement hand-offs don't work (unless there is a mod I don't know about that doesn't require DD to "enforce" the enslavement and add its minigames) but I think that SLA's crimes framework could be recruited to help with something similar - indenture (maybe using a variation of the current "is enslaved" toggle-able status) where the player must pay off a debt (maybe requiring a min gold per day payment would prevent using crafting because there's no chance to gather materials) owed to a rescuer and if they fail or try to leave the city/hold they get a whopping big bounty; if it's configurable then players could choose to use prostitution mods or not to pay they debt and get (some or all of) their stuff returned to them - hopefully this could be pretty light since it is likely to only be very appealing to those who don't use DD and the slavery mods associated with that suite,

 

a little different from ideas posted so far, and maybe not good ones (or doable ones) but I hope they help

[Sulrandir]

Haven't read through all the responses/feedback to Teutonic's recent post (that was a hell of a wall of text, looks like a ton of ideas floating around out there), so I might be rehashing stuff that's already been suggested; apologies if that's so.

 

A lot of what you're describing is REALLY similar to what's being done in Dragonborn In Distress. I'm posting a link in case you haven't seen it; it's probably worth looking at to see if you can just hook into some of it's features rather than reinvent the wheel. Otherwise, a look at how it's handling defeat and short-term/long-term consequences/trauma might give you some ideas about how to approach it, yourself.

 

 

Aside from that, I keep seeing the issue of additional enemies interrupting the gangrape, and I keep wondering: would it be worthwhile to move the player (and companions) to a custom cell, and then clone the attackers into that space to run the scene? I wouldn't call it ideal (I think we'd all generally prefer the rape to occur immediately, right where the surrender occured), but it would allow you much better control of the variables. Just a thought. Probably not a good one, but whatever.

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, Sulrandir said:

A lot of what you're describing is REALLY similar to what's being done in Dragonborn In Distress. I'm posting a link in case you haven't seen it; it's probably worth looking at to see if you can just hook into some of it's features rather than reinvent the wheel. Otherwise, a look at how it's handling defeat and short-term/long-term consequences/trauma might give you some ideas about how to approach it, yourself.

 

Yep. That was the elephant in the room here: DiD. Which already exists.

 

DiD has some nice ideas, and with the addition of the rescues, it finally has a mechanism to balance it properly.

 

The problems with DiD are around the specific implementation, which is a bit unreliable. I think that's a diplomatic way to put it. Also, the options in the MCM are both limited, and burdensome to set up. Actual useful options are few, while pointless busy work in setting up rapist count limits is essential.

 

It maybe overreaching a bit in how it tries to locate suitable prisons. Well... If I'm honest, I think it's overreaching a LOT. That part of it is what fails the most.

 

 

There is a simple solution to DiD's prison problem. Do not try to "discover" suitable imprisonment locations, instead use SD Cages, which are BUILT FOR THE JOB, and have clearly defined mechanisms to leave and enter the cages, which are well tested. There's nothing in SD Cages that really requires SD+. It doesn't require SD+ at all (look at its front page).

 

What is more, SD Patches has functional code to get you in and out of the cages. It's already done. DiD chose not to use this valuable resource, and instead tries to find places in the game to imprison you, and often picks poorly. Also, escape has got too hard now, so you need the rescues. There's no way to control the difficulty either. It's a work in progress sure, but I think that's a basic feature that should have been there from day one. Instead, as often as not, it picks a broken prison location and you're locked in cell forever unless you tcl out. Still.

 

 

So, if  you're going to do combat defeat, SD Cages is a resource that shouldn't be overlooked.

Capture. Escape. Rescue. Maybe some bondage sex. These are great things to have.

 

Addictions, nightmares, trauma... I don't know really. They feel more like an add-on mod than part of combat defeat itself.

If they're part of your combat defeat mod, at least make them a module that can be turned off with a single tickbox, the way things can in SL Adventures right now.

 

 

Making those post defeat horrors an experience worth playing is non-trivial. I'd say make the basic stuff: defeat, capture, escape and rescue run smoothly and balance well, before throwing trauma into the mix.

 

DCL combat defeat still has things that need resolving around defeat conditions after a lot of iterations. Don't assume it's an easy problem to solve. It isn't.

 

7 hours ago, Sulrandir said:

Aside from that, I keep seeing the issue of additional enemies interrupting the gangrape, and I keep wondering: would it be worthwhile to move the player (and companions) to a custom cell, and then clone the attackers into that space to run the scene?

And this takes us to SexLab Kidnapped. It tries to use locations that already exist, and as a result CHAOS. It also has support for a custom location, and this solves a lot of problems.

 

Using a custom location for imprisonment or capture scenarios is a good option if you aren't going to use something like SD Cages.

I definitely had this in mind for quest stuff I planned before I fell down an SLD rabbit hole.

[Corsayr]

8 hours ago, Sulrandir said:

A lot of what you're describing is REALLY similar to what's being done in Dragonborn In Distress

 

42 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Yep. That was the elephant in the room here: DiD. Which already exists.

My two biggest problems with DiD are that it doesn't fully subvert vanilla death (many factions remain that are not supported by the mod), and the traumas get a little weird at the higher end. 

 

I am not a fan of chastity devices, but more immersion breaking is the tentacle stuff... That makes no sense, how is being tentacle raped a calming effect for someone suffering actual rape trauma...  ?

 

on top of those, the captured/escape mini-game is (was? I guess there are new options that maybe fix this...) too brutal, and subverts the game to the point that a single loss means you are basically not playing Skyrim anymore... ?

 

That mechanic also basically forces you to spec stealth so you CAN escape. 

 

I haven't tried it in a while so maybe some things have changed. 

[Lupine00]

35 minutes ago, Corsayr said:

I haven't tried it in a while so maybe some things have changed.

Even specced stealth, you can't escape in most cases. The captors follow you very closely and teleport after you if you go through a load door, even if they can't see you.

 

You can get rescued. That's pretty much how you get out now.

 

I agree with all the issues raised regarding DiD. Except tentacles. They need no justification ... because tentacles! Does that all make sense now?

[Corsayr]

6 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

because tentacles!

Argued well, and won! I concede the debate. ?  

[Sulrandir]

I didn't really want to get into a whole description or critique of DiD, here, because it's NOT this mod, and it's still in development. Never meant to imply it's perfect or anything, just that it's doing some of the things @Teutonic is talking about wanting to do, and in new ways that are distinct from what we're seeing in other mods.

 

The way is see it, here, we're talking about several very distinct systems/mechanics:

 

1. Defeat - how the mod transitions from combat to some sort of consequence scenario

 

2. Captivity - the PC and relevant NPCs are removed or isolated from "vanilla" gameplay for such consequence scenarios. "Isolated" does not necessarily mean, but nor does is exclude "geographical" isolation.

 

2.a. Short Term captivity - Catch/Abuse/Release scenario such as a gangrape; mostly transitional, ultimately delivering PC to an outcome scenario (enslavement/rescue/escape, etc.). A Short-Term Captivity scenario would be, for example, player is surrounded by bandits after surrender, and gang-raped. Light--if any--interactivity, low--if any--player agency or direct use of primary/vanilla gameplay mechanics.

 

2.b. Long-Term Captivity - This is enslavement or captivity intended to be role-played for any length of time beyond a single scene, involving player agency and actual NPC/world interaction, likely with fundamental alteration to the main vanilla gameplay. Because of the length of time spent here, there needs to be interesting and/or dynamic STORY content, in order to retain player interest.

 

3. Rape - as an event/scene which occurs within a Captivity scenario.

 

4. Trauma - gameplay effects applied to the character to alter their game as a lasting consequence of events/scenes endured through Combat Defeat or Captivity scenarios.

 

Trauma's can be applied by Rape or Defeat, Rape occurs during Captuvity, Captivity is a consequence of Defeat OR a non-combat trigger (such as the existing Proximity or Sleep Rape attack systems).

 

Keeping the systems themselves independent, then hooking into them (rather than attempting to define a direct linear progression), should allow for more room for ongoing additions/enhancements, better potential for branching/dynamic scenarios, and easier/better interoperability with other mods.

 

If it's all modular, then it's also easier for the different "phases" to call back-and-forth between each other. A Short-Term Capivity scenario could deliver the player to a Long-Term scenario, which could in turn deliver the player back into a Short-Term scenario as a single scene/event within the overarching Long-Term narrative (PC is used as a party favor, for example). Trauma's linked to the individual Abuse events, rather than to the scene or scenario, and can then potentially feed back into triggering Defeat and/or Captivity scenes.

 

Too many mods will build a Defeat mechanic with a single tightly-coded Short-Term Captivity secnario involving a string of Rape events. Then it's the same thing, every time, and when the author wants to change or add something, they're forced to tear everything down or else try to shoehorn something in that the existing mechanic was never intended to do. Or else they write a Rape mod, then try to create a basic framework around that to pass the PC from rape to rape.

 

They really need to be conceptually separate mechanics which exist and function without one another, then CAN hook into one another. Any other approach, at least so far from what I've seen, ends up painting itself into a corner, eventually.

[Lupine00]

16 hours ago, Sulrandir said:

I didn't really want to get into a whole description or critique of DiD, here, because it's NOT this mod, and it's still in development. Never meant to imply it's perfect or anything, just that it's doing some of the things @Teutonic is talking about wanting to do, and in new ways that are distinct from what we're seeing in other mod

Surely, the existence of a mod with potentially major overlap is relevant?

 

Not only does it teach some valuable lessons about what works and what doesn't, but it already in existence, and so any overlapping feature that didn't improve on it in some meaningful way would be pointless, and a waste of work.

 

DiD's problem is overreach. Instead of perfecting combat defeat, then adding interesting outcomes, it added post defeat mechanics and worked backwards.

 

That is also a valuable lesson. Don't work backwards, work forwards from a stable position, and deliver working, functional releases. The core of "agile" is a working version, not scrums, or story points, or any other project management tool. A working version is also key to getting people to use your mod. If you release a totally hosed version, and take weeks to fix it, people cannot use your mod.

[PenBoozerX]

No idea how hard it would be to implement, but would it be possible to get a toggle for proximity rape that checks if there is other NPCs nearby, either by line of sight or radius? Basically I'd love an option in the point system to check when you're in a busy place and by your setting always or never rape if there are people withing X distance of pc. Getting targeted at the middle of marketplace in broad daylight can be a bit silly. I usually have "only at night" scenario for the pursuers on to try and keep rapes seem like discreet predatory behavior, rather than common occurrence infront of local stables everyone just passes by shrugging.

I'd like the danger to still be there during daytime too though, and some system that would check the rapers surroundings like if he could get away with it or not would be great. For example, PC is walking at Riften stalls and there is people around; too many people and rape wouldn't happen. Then PC steps at the back alley near thieves guild entrance; nobody there but PC and a patrol guard, no witnesses basically and rape event possibility would fire up again.

 

Just an idea, love this mod!

[afa]

In a perfect theoretical world the combat defeat + events issue would have been solved by a combo of Defeat and Death Alternative. In reality however there are lots of issues with this combo, rather than dwelling on the short comings let's just focus on what they could have been, and if it is possible to or how to achieve them. The recently released DiD should not be ignore either.

 

I am in favor of an essential player character/prevent death option approach which solves a lot of potential headaches, fringe possibilities that need to be address later, or scripts/events slipping through the cracks. It also works thematically base on what is being built here.

 

Second, I think followers support is important. It enables a lot of options, scenarios, and dialog to be play....with exponentially more work I presume, but keep followers constantly in mind and you can get lots of dynamic consequences/triggers.

 

Defeat in combat:

Using Defeat as a base lots of essentials are already covered. Health/magic/stamina triggers, heavy attacks, maybe add an random % here and there, along with special cases for paralyze and knock downs attacks.

I would also mirror the rape defense stat approach mentioned by someone else above. Which H/M/S stats and conditions mentioned could also be roll into. We can explore the details, but this is going to be a long post, so let's just keep it relatively short with that.

Defeat has the option to have followers keep fighting after PC has fallen, I think it is a great function. Someone else also mentioned a more immediate rape while fight is still going on approach when PC/a follower falls in battle. It could be very interesting, however implementation will no doubt be a nightmare, if it is possible I think it would be awesome.

I would drop the mini game approach in general and opt for stats/random %/MCM settings.

 

Immediate Consequences:

This is where DA's bleedout/blackout features would have been able to shine if everything works, but I think we can use that as a target (It actually has its own capture and rescue event). Rape and/or rob consequences should be fairly obvious.

An issue with teleporting PC out of the dungeon is that it could break some set pieces; some dungeons are meant to have points of no return or scripted maze like events with lever and switches, suddenly pull the PC back out could be troublesome unless it is possible to reset the area.

Handing off to other slavery mod is another option. A relatively short captured event could also work as noted by others, details of that could be work out a little later; hatching up escape plan with followers, rescue, etc.

For now an attempt to escape/left for dead event would be fine which will most likely be just PC and followers getting back up and running away with a MCM selected timer on how long enemies should stay passive. Skyrim is a pretty gear dependent game, losing equipment (from robbing) could be quite a setback from continuing adventures, especially in conjunction with some of SL Adventures existing features!

 

Long term consequences:

I like the specific trauma idea a lot even it, admittedly, overlaps with DiD; however might want to rethink the permanent nature of it. I like the debuff being link to rape defense or other sexual related context rather than actual combat stats...movement speed debuff is also terrible when it comes to quality of life. Also flavor text and dialog goes a long way, again followers involvement.

 

There is quite a few features in Defeat and DA that I won't miss if they aren't recreated (player aggressor, prostitution, bleedout vs black out), and the rest of Adventures' non combat line up is more than enough to make up for it, I could also see some of Adventures existing features inter-playing with these new ideas: Trauma gaining from current SLA trigger events. SLA can now starts using brawl/combat and ties into combat defeat. SLA triggers could jump to short capture events, etc.

[Lupine00]

Personally, I think the best approach to defeat would be a small, very focused mod, that dealt with defeat and nothing else.

It would recognise defeat and ensure you don't die. That is all.

 

Post defeat would then be handled by add-in quests that work entirely be responding to mod events, and use StorageUtil to negotiate who gets to handle the defeat, possibly allowing multiple handlers to fire in sequence.

 

They should register with the main mod so it can provide MCM entries to turn them on and off, and possibly set certain parameters. For those with lots of parameters, they'd have their own MCM.

 

These handlers could include mechanics like trauma, addiction, or whatever you like.

 

Then, not only can the defeat mod's author add outcomes, but others could add them too, and outcomes could be updated individually.

[DonQuiWho]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Personally, I think the best approach to defeat would be a small, very focused mod, that dealt with defeat and nothing else.

It would recognise defeat and ensure you don't die. That is all.

 

Post defeat would then be handled by add-in quests that work entirely be responding to mod events, and use StorageUtil to negotiate who gets to handle the defeat, possibly allowing multiple handlers to fire in sequence.

 

They should register with the main mod so it can provide MCM entries to turn them on and off, and possibly set certain parameters. For those with lots of parameters, they'd have their own MCM.

 

These handlers could include mechanics like trauma, addiction, or whatever you like.

 

Then, not only can the defeat mod's author add outcomes, but others could add them too, and outcomes could be updated individually.

Agreed, with the rider that follower handling needs to be included both for the knockdown phase, and passing over to the optional Post Defeat plug-ins