Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[Whizkid]

5 hours ago, Kimy said:

Of the larger mods, I know that Shout Like a Virgin will be ready for 4.0. Deviously Cursed Loot will see a simultaneous update release with DD4, as well. Captured Dreams will not be updated according to its author.

 

The smaller DD mods might not even need an update.

 

About ZAP 8 - I have no clue. DD4 has no reason to be tested against it as it has no longer any connection to ZAP. Cursed Loot makes casual use of ZAP furniture and -should- be ok with ZAP 8. I can't say for sure, though. Cursed Loot has been compiled against ZAP 7.

nice, thanks Kimy and team for all their hardwork making this much needed major overhaul :)

[Princessity]

3 hours ago, Techpriest said:

 

To clarify, since I think I didn't express myself clear enough: I don't think that you should integrate DD into Sexlab. What I meant was, that you should open a way to register third party users to register animations with DD, which then get added to DDs internal animation list. DD then would use its own filter to select the most appropriate animation and pass it to the places where it get played. The last step you are doing already for your own animations, so that should work.

That'd have the additional benefit of decoupling DD third party animation registration from the system that play them. Which, in turn, would help if for some weird reasons DD at some point decides to use a completely different system to play animations, since the third party developer doesn't need to be aware of the internals and the registration process stayed the same (hopefully).

 

In short the system could work like this:

1. Third party developer sets up his own animations in his own mod

2. Third party developer registers his animations with DD

// From this point the third party developer is no longer in control

3. A scene request comes in

4. DD selects the most appropriate animation for said scene

5. DD passes the animation to the animation player

 

That should work and make a nice interface for developers to register their own content with DD. I think, if feasible, this could make a great addition for v5.0.

 

 

On the download page it says, that Zap 8.0 is 100% compatible with 7.0, since apparently most of the things are added stuff.

Ummm... I understood what you said. We were talking about the same thing, where did I say anything about integrating DD into SL? ^^

[special]

@Princessity / @Kimy

 

BUG REPORT:

1, HDT Ankle Chains (or whatever you now call them) do not work, they appear as static meshes, no HDT movement.

 

2, Clipping issue with head harness gags around the sides of the mouth.

 

3, Can access Inventory even when hands / arms are bound (new restraints and old do this).

    - Allows other restraints to be added or removed even when bound.

 

4, Can still cast spells whilst gagged even with no-food mode enabled.

 

 

I have a clean install with only DD4's required mods added (latest versions).

As for the HDT issues, other HDT meshes work fine just the ankle chains and ball and chains failing.

[Stiffon]

On 11/28/2017 at 9:02 AM, Kimy said:

apparently Kimy-bashing is fun!

Maybe you could include a "Kimy NPC" in to the mod - have her bound etc. so we can all go Kimy bashing! 

 

Ignore me, I'll go back to my corner.

[Mirabo]

21 minutes ago, special said:

3, Can access Inventory even when hands / arms are bound (new restraints and old do this).

    - Allows other restraints to be added or removed even when bound.

 

I came across the same "bug" and I think it's the "manipulate the lock" function. You're able to remove manipulated restraints even with bound hands. I was unable to unlock properly locked restraints while wearing a straightjacket/armbinder.

 

 

But I came across other bugs: 

The (short) catsuit gloves float behind your ass when wearing a straightjacket. Catsuit long gloves & restrictive gloves work just fine.

 

Also, pretty much all hoods (except for the standard rubber one) and gas masks do not hide hair and I've got some nasty clipping. 

Is this a problem on my end? Looks like a pretty obvious thing and so far noone seemed to report it...

[Princessity]

46 minutes ago, Mirabo said:

I came across the same "bug" and I think it's the "manipulate the lock" function. You're able to remove manipulated restraints even with bound hands. I was unable to unlock properly locked restraints while wearing a straightjacket/armbinder.

 

 

But I came across other bugs: 

The (short) catsuit gloves float behind your ass when wearing a straightjacket. Catsuit long gloves & restrictive gloves work just fine.

 

Also, pretty much all hoods (except for the standard rubber one) and gas masks do not hide hair and I've got some nasty clipping. 

Is this a problem on my end? Looks like a pretty obvious thing and so far noone seemed to report it...

Oh honey honey. Oh dear...

 

._.

 

Sigh. Armour Addon priorities. I knew there was something horrible and awful I blocked out of my memory hoping it would just go away on its own.

 

Thank you for the report, I'll try to fix it tomorrow.

 

1 hour ago, special said:

@Princessity / @Kimy

 

BUG REPORT:

1, HDT Ankle Chains (or whatever you now call them) do not work, they appear as static meshes, no HDT movement.

 

2, Clipping issue with head harness gags around the sides of the mouth.

 

3, Can access Inventory even when hands / arms are bound (new restraints and old do this).

    - Allows other restraints to be added or removed even when bound.

 

4, Can still cast spells whilst gagged even with no-food mode enabled.

 

 

I have a clean install with only DD4's required mods added (latest versions).

As for the HDT issues, other HDT meshes work fine just the ankle chains and ball and chains failing.

1: Cannot reproduce. All of the HDT devices with chain physics work on my end. The problem must be with your installation.

 

2. Probably unfixable. Gags do not have tri morphs (I'm not even sure if they can). They're one-size-fits-all-(sometimes)

 

3. Not a bug. Heavy restraints no longer blocking access to inventory is an intentional design decision.

I cannot reproduce your second issue. Are the devices you're trying to add manipulated? Manipulated devices can be unlocked any time.

 

4. Gags have always allowed casting spells. What kind of spell do you mean and why do you think you should not be able to cast it?

[Annaleah]

1 hour ago, Stiffon said:

Maybe you could include a "Kimy NPC" in to the mod - have her bound etc. so we can all go Kimy bashing! 

 

Ignore me, I'll go back to my corner.

I'd like to second this >.>

[Darkpig]

1 hour ago, Stiffon said:

Maybe you could include a "Kimy NPC" in to the mod - have her bound etc. so we can all go Kimy bashing! 

 

Ignore me, I'll go back to my corner.

NPC Kimy will bash you instead. XD

[Stiffon]

49 minutes ago, Darkpig said:

NPC Kimy will bash you instead. XD

Not until I unlock her she won't lol.... if I undress unlock her...

[special]

1 hour ago, Princessity said:

1: Cannot reproduce. All of the HDT devices with chain physics work on my end. The problem must be with your installation.

- See comments below

 

2. Probably unfixable. Gags do not have tri morphs (I'm not even sure if they can). They're one-size-fits-all-(sometimes)

- Have fixed myself using a different cbbe mouth mesh

 

3. Not a bug. Heavy restraints no longer blocking access to inventory is an intentional design decision.

I cannot reproduce your second issue. Are the devices you're trying to add manipulated? Manipulated devices can be unlocked any time.

- Ok, I misunderstood how the new DD4 now works

 

4. Gags have always allowed casting spells. What kind of spell do you mean and why do you think you should not be able to cast it?

- Shouts

So Iron Chain Harness HDT work fine, it's only the Fetters that do not work, all colours, none work.

I have checked install several times, it is correctly installed.  My DD directories match exactly (with the exception of some .tri files from BodySlide) what is in the DD4 development zip files.

Like I said, all other items seem to work fine it's only the fetters that fail.

 

NOTE: I am using CBBE HDT - Curvy, I have used BodySlide to create all the meshes to the correct size.

 

Could you zip up the fetters from your data directory and send me those to test?  - Maybe your version isn't the same as the files on GitHub?


On another note, how do I remove the walk/run animations whilst wearing the armbinders?

The run / sprint looks goofy and not up to the standards of your other animations (struggles etc).

[LazyBoot]

55 minutes ago, special said:

On another note, how do I remove the walk/run animations whilst wearing the armbinders?

The run / sprint looks goofy and not up to the standards of your other animations (struggles etc).

The "01 Cedec0", "01 Feuertin Alt", and "01 MaikCG" has different alternatives for animations while wearing armbinders.

[Darkpig]

1 hour ago, Stiffon said:

Not until I unlock her she won't lol.... if I undress unlock her...

That is what you thought until she turned into a dragon! Dun! Dun! Dun!

[Princessity]

I'll investigate the shout issue. Thank you.

1 hour ago, special said:

So Iron Chain Harness HDT work fine, it's only the Fetters that do not work, all colours, none work.

I have checked install several times, it is correctly installed.  My DD directories match exactly (with the exception of some .tri files from BodySlide) what is in the DD4 development zip files.

Like I said, all other items seem to work fine it's only the fetters that fail.

 

NOTE: I am using CBBE HDT - Curvy, I have used BodySlide to create all the meshes to the correct size.

 

Could you zip up the fetters from your data directory and send me those to test?  - Maybe your version isn't the same as the files on GitHub?


On another note, how do I remove the walk/run animations whilst wearing the armbinders?

The run / sprint looks goofy and not up to the standards of your other animations (struggles etc).

I'm using the exact same files that you are. I redownloaded the whole DDx repo last week just to make sure I was all synced up. The physics-relevant files haven't been modified since 5 to 8 months ago so if there were any issues with them, someone else would have reported it by now. You're the first.

 

Make sure that all of these files and all of these, especially the xmls are present in your installation. If they're not, that means either Github didn't download everything (in which case try redownloading) or your mod manager ate the xml files (I heard NMM used to do that at some point in the past, I'm not sure if it still does).

 

Also please make sure that your skeleton and HDT physics setup are up to date.

 

Here's a picture of my sim taken just now, dancing while wrapped up in 4 chains, all with functioning body and floor collisions.

 

[Mirabo]

6 hours ago, special said:

Like I said, all other items seem to work fine it's only the fetters that fail.

 

NOTE: I am using CBBE HDT - Curvy, I have used BodySlide to create all the meshes to the correct size.

 

 

I'm using CBBE HDT - Curvy, too and I just tried every fetter item in DDx (steel, black steel, silver, iron ball&chain, rusty ball&chain). Everything worked without a problem.

[special]

5 hours ago, Princessity said:

I'll investigate the shout issue. Thank you.

I'm using the exact same files that you are. I redownloaded the whole DDx repo last week just to make sure I was all synced up. The physics-relevant files haven't been modified since 5 to 8 months ago so if there were any issues with them, someone else would have reported it by now. You're the first.

 

Make sure that all of these files and all of these, especially the xmls are present in your installation. If they're not, that means either Github didn't download everything (in which case try redownloading) or your mod manager ate the xml files (I heard NMM used to do that at some point in the past, I'm not sure if it still does).

 

Also please make sure that your skeleton and HDT physics setup are up to date.

 

Here's a picture of my sim taken just now, dancing while wrapped up in 4 chains, all with functioning body and floor collisions.

 

All my hdt plugins are up to date etc as is my XP32 Extended skeleton.

 

The ball and chain you have in your screen shots works fine for me, it's just the ankle chains (fetters) that do not work.

 

The files for those i assume are the ones in the expansion zap folders in which case, my data directory matches github zips.

 

I did however use NMM to install DD4 so will do it manually and see if that fixes it.

 

I have done 2 from scratch installs of skyrim and dd4 and the same thing happens each time.

 

I will do a video tonight to show you what's going on, maybe you will spot the problem from that.

 

I did also download fresh zips last night from github so they are also up to date.

 

Will be back later.

[Veladarius]

To the DD Development Team,
I want to apologize for how I have acted, often it was not not very dignified and anything taken personally was not warranted. I know you are working hard to further DD and I thank you for your work.

 

But there are reasons for my behavior, some having to do with the direction DD has headed and some not. First is the (then) optional escape framework was added to DD Min asked us our opinions on it and I said I personally hated it and disabled it immediately on the start of a new game. This is not how I wanted my DD experience to be. Second is my bi polar condition and is one of several conditions I am seeing a Psychiatrist for. Unfortunately due to my severe intolerance or resistance for most psychological drugs (and most all drugs as well) it is a condition I can not control, the last medication I tried worked but also damaged my liver faster than being an alcoholic would have and I had to stop taking it. I can't control the swings between emotions and unfortunately I lashed out at you during these.

 

I will likely support v4 with CD at some point but the more changes to my mod it requires (especially with devices themselves) the longer it will likely be before I do add support. With CD I intend to set all of the settings on the devices so they act as they do with v3.3. As far as my use of mods personally any mods that don't offer the ability to disable the new features I will drop from my load order and not consider any linking between CD and those mods. As a general rule I won't link CD to a mod that I wouldn't use myself.

[El_Duderino]

13 hours ago, special said:

2. Probably unfixable. Gags do not have tri morphs (I'm not even sure if they can). They're one-size-fits-all-(sometimes)

- Have fixed myself using a different cbbe mouth mesh

I ran into this with my own gag models and I don't think anything can be done about this. The DD gags all match the Skyrim female head tri shape perfectly, but when the player creates more "extreme" head shapes in RaceMenu (or ECE?) on their char's head, clipping can occur. The only thing the modeler of the gag can do about this is to make the model very loose fitting, but then it looks horrible on average shaped heads in the game (huge gaps between straps and skin).

[Veladarius]

7 minutes ago, El_Duderino said:

I ran into this with my own gag models and I don't think anything can be done about this. The DD gags all match the Skyrim female head tri shape perfectly, but when the player creates more "extreme" head shapes in RaceMenu (or ECE?) on their char's head, clipping can occur. The only thing the modeler of the gag can do about this is to make the model very loose fitting, but then it looks horrible on average shaped heads in the game (huge gaps between straps and skin).

Zadil ran into the same issue when making the original gags. At the time there wasn't anything to readily reference and even if there was making the gags adjustable was far more work than he was willing to put into them.

[Skullered]

2 hours ago, El_Duderino said:

I ran into this with my own gag models and I don't think anything can be done about this. The DD gags all match the Skyrim female head tri shape perfectly, but when the player creates more "extreme" head shapes in RaceMenu (or ECE?) on their char's head, clipping can occur. The only thing the modeler of the gag can do about this is to make the model very loose fitting, but then it looks horrible on average shaped heads in the game (huge gaps between straps and skin).

It's funny, because Oblivion used to have such a system, using .egm files, which deformed headgear depending on your face's morphs.

Why this wasn't included in Skyrim as well is a mystery, and if it is, I've yet to find out how to use it.

[Kimy]

3 hours ago, Veladarius said:

To the DD Development Team,
I want to apologize for how I have acted, often it was not not very dignified and anything taken personally was not warranted. I know you are working hard to further DD and I thank you for your work.

Apology accepted. I understand where this was coming from. Probably a bit better than you think.

3 hours ago, Veladarius said:

 

But there are reasons for my behavior, some having to do with the direction DD has headed and some not. First is the (then) optional escape framework was added to DD Min asked us our opinions on it and I said I personally hated it and disabled it immediately on the start of a new game. This is not how I wanted my DD experience to be.

I understand that not everyone has the same preferences. Which is why we listened to the feedback we got about the new escape system and introduced that global difficulty modifier. No, it doesn't let you disable features entirely, but on the easiest setting it makes them barely noticeable. I believed and still believe that's a reasonable compromise between letting the modders decide how their devices should behave and allowing the user to still have some control over their gameplay experience. It's also way easier to use than dozens of different toggles and sliders affecting different parts of the escape system.

 

3 hours ago, Veladarius said:

I will likely support v4 with CD at some point but the more changes to my mod it requires (especially with devices themselves) the longer it will likely be before I do add support.

There is only one "hard" backwards-compatibility issue between 3.x and 4.0, and some others that -should- be addressed. The list:

 

- You NEED to change the device keyword for all armbinders and yokes to zad_DeviousHeavyBondage. That's a must. Your devices will no longer work properly if you don't. Keep zad_DeviousArmbinder and zad_DeviousYoke as secondary keywords on the rendered item.

- You REALLY SHOULD make all armbinders and yokes use zadEquipScript instead of the old armbinder and yoke scripts. You might also have to check the effects applied by your devices (if they are using only framework effects you're good!) Check any framework armbinder or yoke for a reference as to how to set this up (e.g. how to fill properties). If your devices use custom code you cannot reproduce with the new escape system, make a new script inheriting zadEquipScript and add your custom code there. There should -rarely- be any need for this. The old system still works, but is marked deprecated and will be removed down the road.

- You SHOULD convert your items to use the new escape system. While the old system will still work in 4.0, it's marked deprecated and will get removed as well. It's also confusing for users to deal with two very different escape systems.

- I'd RECOMMEND removing ZAP keywords from your devices for consistency. They are no longer needed for any DD feature, and might lead to unintended effects when people still use ZAP's animation filter. You can otherwise still use ZAP the way you always did. ZAP and DD are still fully compatible, except for its bondage device code, which I strongly recommend any DD mod to no longer use. Treat ZAP as the furniture bondage mod and DD as the wearable restraints mod.

 

Feel free to ask for assistance if you need help! :)

3 hours ago, Veladarius said:

 

 any mods that don't offer the ability to disable the new features

 

That's honestly not all that easy to do, as the parameters of the new escape system are set at design time, and hard to influence at run time from outsides the framework. And content mods cannot override framework features from their end. Difficulty customization in DD content mods will probably look more like in DCL, which users can influence features of the mod (e.g. how likely certain quests are to trigger, or what chances to get certain NPC reactions are), but not necessarily features of the devices. As an example, in DCL you can influence how often you get locked in High Security devices, but once locked in one, that item always behaves the same way. That's how this system is intended to be used. Mind you that the modder can still allow the global difficulty modifier even for custom/quest devices.

[Veladarius]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

There is only one "hard" backwards-compatibility issue between 3.x and 4.0, and some others that -should- be addressed. The list:

 

- You NEED to change the device keyword for all armbinders and yokes to zad_DeviousHeavyBondage. That's a must. Your devices will no longer work properly if you don't. Keep zad_DeviousArmbinder and zad_DeviousYoke as secondary keywords on the rendered item.

- You REALLY SHOULD make all armbinders and yokes use zadEquipScript instead of the old armbinder and yoke scripts. You might also have to check the effects applied by your devices (if they are using only framework effects you're good!) Check any framework armbinder or yoke for a reference as to how to set this up (e.g. how to fill properties). If your devices use custom code you cannot reproduce with the new escape system, make a new script inheriting zadEquipScript and add your custom code there. There should -rarely- be any need for this. The old system still works, but is marked deprecated and will be removed down the road.

I only have 1 armbinder that is a quest device and that is the unremovable one. There are some other places where I do set armbinders to 'locked on' and are not escapable though they are usually used with standard armbinders.

 

- You SHOULD convert your items to use the new escape system. While the old system will still work in 4.0, it's marked deprecated and will get removed as well. It's also confusing for users to deal with two very different escape systems.

Only custom items use a custom script that extends the original device script are made to override the equip script menu and replaces it with my own so they can only be removed via script. Standard items use the standard scripts the devices from DD used.

 

- I'd RECOMMEND removing ZAP keywords from your devices for consistency. They are no longer needed for any DD feature, and might lead to unintended effects when people still use ZAP's animation filter. You can otherwise still use ZAP the way you always did. ZAP and DD are still fully compatible, except for its bondage device code, which I strongly recommend any DD mod to no longer use. Treat ZAP as the furniture bondage mod and DD as the wearable restraints mod.

I guess that means I get to modify a few hundred devices.

 

That's honestly not all that easy to do, as the parameters of the new escape system are set at design time, and hard to influence at run time from outsides the framework. And content mods cannot override framework features from their end. Difficulty customization in DD content mods will probably look more like in DCL, which users can influence features of the mod (e.g. how likely certain quests are to trigger, or what chances to get certain NPC reactions are), but not necessarily features of the devices. As an example, in DCL you can influence how often you get locked in High Security devices, but once locked in one, that item always behaves the same way. That's how this system is intended to be used. Mind you that the modder can still allow the global difficulty modifier even for custom/quest devices.

I suppose I will have to look into it further myself.

 

[Laura]

Glad to see things are going better.

I greatly respect both sides and it pained me to see you turned against eachother.

Not having to split the community between the DD/DCUR users and the CD users is good.

Keeping the biggest mods adult themed mods compatible seems really important to me.

 

This feud was bothering me more than it should.

 

[LazyBoot]

14 minutes ago, Veladarius said:

- I'd RECOMMEND removing ZAP keywords from your devices for consistency. They are no longer needed for any DD feature, and might lead to unintended effects when people still use ZAP's animation filter. You can otherwise still use ZAP the way you always did. ZAP and DD are still fully compatible, except for its bondage device code, which I strongly recommend any DD mod to no longer use. Treat ZAP as the furniture bondage mod and DD as the wearable restraints mod.

I guess that means I get to modify a few hundred devices.

This sounds like something that could easily be automated in tes5edit.

[Kimy]

2 minutes ago, Veladarius said:

- You NEED to change the device keyword for all armbinders and yokes to zad_DeviousHeavyBondage. That's a must. Your devices will no longer work properly if you don't. Keep zad_DeviousArmbinder and zad_DeviousYoke as secondary keywords on the rendered item.

- You REALLY SHOULD make all armbinders and yokes use zadEquipScript instead of the old armbinder and yoke scripts. You might also have to check the effects applied by your devices (if they are using only framework effects you're good!) Check any framework armbinder or yoke for a reference as to how to set this up (e.g. how to fill properties). If your devices use custom code you cannot reproduce with the new escape system, make a new script inheriting zadEquipScript and add your custom code there. There should -rarely- be any need for this. The old system still works, but is marked deprecated and will be removed down the road.

I only have 1 armbinder that is a quest device and that is the unremovable one. There are some other places where I do set armbinders to 'locked on' and are not escapable though they are usually used with standard armbinders.

 

This will take you 5 mins to do, then. Mind you that the standard framework armbinders are escapable though, so if you want the player to stay in there, you should equip her with an inescapable one (escape chances properties set to zero).

 

2 minutes ago, Veladarius said:

 

 

- You SHOULD convert your items to use the new escape system. While the old system will still work in 4.0, it's marked deprecated and will get removed as well. It's also confusing for users to deal with two very different escape systems.

Only custom items use a custom script that extends the original device script are made to override the equip script menu and replaces it with my own so they can only be removed via script. Standard items use the standard scripts the devices from DD used.

 

If you are fine with the default values for the escape system, you don't need to do anything, then. Btw. you no longer need to override the base DD restraints script for this purpose anymore. All you need to do to make a standard framework item inescapable, clone it in your mod, and set the three escape chance properties to zero. Soooo much easier with the new system! :)

 

2 minutes ago, Veladarius said:

 

 

 

 

- I'd RECOMMEND removing ZAP keywords from your devices for consistency. They are no longer needed for any DD feature, and might lead to unintended effects when people still use ZAP's animation filter. You can otherwise still use ZAP the way you always did. ZAP and DD are still fully compatible, except for its bondage device code, which I strongly recommend any DD mod to no longer use. Treat ZAP as the furniture bondage mod and DD as the wearable restraints mod.

I guess that means I get to modify a few hundred devices.

 

 

It's nothing you -have- to do at this point, mind you. You can do this down the road. I marked it "recommended" for a reason. :)

2 minutes ago, Veladarius said:

 

 

That's honestly not all that easy to do, as the parameters of the new escape system are set at design time, and hard to influence at run time from outsides the framework. And content mods cannot override framework features from their end. Difficulty customization in DD content mods will probably look more like in DCL, which users can influence features of the mod (e.g. how likely certain quests are to trigger, or what chances to get certain NPC reactions are), but not necessarily features of the devices. As an example, in DCL you can influence how often you get locked in High Security devices, but once locked in one, that item always behaves the same way. That's how this system is intended to be used. Mind you that the modder can still allow the global difficulty modifier even for custom/quest devices.

I suppose I will have to look into it further myself.

Making DD items resilient against influence from other content mods was a design criteria for the new system, mind you. This way, each modder can create devices the way he or she wants them to be, without having to take into consideration what -other- mods might do. Mod A can make cosmetic items that don't hamper you at all. Mod B can offer hardcore items for people who love to struggle their way through Skyrim. No setting for any device affects another. Players can use these mods according to their personal preference. In additional to be a generally more detailed and interesting escape system, that's exactly what the new system was meant to do.

[VirginMarie]

Kimy, you said... "set the three escape chance properties to zero"

If I want an item inescapable, I've got BaseEscapeChance set to 0. What are the other 2 and can they just remain at their default of "<default>"?