Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[chaimhewast]

1 hour ago, naaitsab said:

The scripts are still within DD (which we can also cleanup when we know what scripts are used by the Deviants ESP, there should be ways to check this).

The prefix "zadd" was used for most of those scripts, and I think the TIF__07xxxxxx scripts are all from it as well? You'd probably have to check their respective form IDs to make sure, though - either manually or by writing an xEdit script to extract the script names from the dialogue topics.

 

40 minutes ago, Min said:

By all means, feel free! I'd enjoy seeing those old quests come back to life. The Sergius questline always felt a bit awkwardly implemented, but some of the others were pretty fun I think. The only quests I've ever written, heh.

Devious quest mods have certainly come a long way since they were first written, but it'll be nice to have the old classics back again. I remember getting Zed's quest early game and then cursing when I realized how hard the dwemer dungeons were at low levels.

 

Also, I went digging in the thread and  found this for you @Min, from the 5.2 beta1 changelog:

On 10/25/2021 at 1:50 PM, Kimy said:

Technically, a new game shouldn't be needed if upgrading from DD5.x, but I'd still appreciate if people would test DD 5.2 on a new and clean savegame, just to make sure.

 

[Min]

37 minutes ago, chaimhewast said:

Also, I went digging in the thread and  found this for you @Min, from the 5.2 beta1 changelog:

 

Awesome, thanks for digging that up. Cheers.

[hellagain]

Is there a current active download for SE 5.2 Beta 6? The mega link a few pages back reports broken. The SE link is broken.

[chaimhewast]

7 minutes ago, hellagain said:

Is there a current active download for SE 5.2 Beta 6? The mega link a few pages back reports broken. The SE link is broken.

Cannot reproduce, SE beta 6 download is working fine here. Try a different browser.

[zarantha]

13 hours ago, Min said:

And yeah, I'm on SE. Is this the latest build?

 

Yes, that's the current beta conversion for SE.

[zarantha]

3 hours ago, hellagain said:

Is there a current active download for SE 5.2 Beta 6? The mega link a few pages back reports broken. The SE link is broken.

 

The mega link is working. If you're having trouble with mega, there's a google drive link just below it.

[naaitsab]

9 hours ago, Min said:

 

Another way that I could see doing it would be having keywords like "zad_ShowSlot32" that you could put on devices to override the device hider's behavior for it.

 

By all means, feel free! I'd enjoy seeing those old quests come back to life. The Sergius questline always felt a bit awkwardly implemented, but some of the others were pretty fun I think. The only quests I've ever written, heh.

 

The Sergius quest was a bit strange indeed  did you have/had any plans on the table to further the Forbidden Tome quest?

 

8 hours ago, chaimhewast said:

The prefix "zadd" was used for most of those scripts, and I think the TIF__07xxxxxx scripts are all from it as well? You'd probably have to check their respective form IDs to make sure, though - either manually or by writing an xEdit script to extract the script names from the dialogue topics.

 

 

Yeah I got the files separated. I made a xEdit script some time ago which shows which script is used on which entity in a mod. mostly for searching dialogue scripts. It's painfully slow however. If someone knows a fast way to batch check this we could cleanup all the scripts which are no longer used.

On the basis of the file naming and searching within the script files with 'Everything' on specific keywords it's sorted now. Are 86 scripts so cleans DD itself up quite a bit.

 

@Kimy did you make script changes for the next beta? Otherwise I will post the script files separated here that remove the scripts that are only used by Deviants.

[Min]

8 hours ago, naaitsab said:

The Sergius quest was a bit strange indeed  did you have/had any plans on the table to further the Forbidden Tome quest?

Zadil and I had talked about it, but didn't have any solid plans. I look forward to seeing your take on it.

[BYJE137]

Just to figure out if I understand how the relationship between this framework and its dependencies work: I should not expect new assets added in the latest beta version to be applied in-game by any of the device-mechanisms linked to mods developed prior to this beta version being uploaded, right? So (for example) the latest version of cursed loot should not be expected to apply any of the new devices added until the cursed loot (for example) mod is actually updated to also reference the new assets in the most recent version of the framework? Is this correct?

[hungvipbcsok]

9 minutes ago, BYJE137 said:

Just to figure out if I understand how the relationship between this framework and its dependencies work: I should not expect new assets added in the latest beta version to be applied in-game by any of the device-mechanisms linked to mods developed prior to this beta version being uploaded, right? So (for example) the latest version of cursed loot should not be expected to apply any of the new devices added until the cursed loot (for example) mod is actually updated to also reference the new assets in the most recent version of the framework? Is this correct?

wrong. Cursed Loot equip items from a list and new DD version simply add more item to the list. So there is no problem for DCL to equip new item with newer DD framework. Others mod that call generic list is also equip new item no problem at all.

[BYJE137]

Thanks @hungvipbcsok - I was sort of hoping/assuming from the start that that's how it works and I had a really hard time understanding why this kind of implementation would not be possible, but I got somewhat confused because I started thinking about how I don't seem to encounter new device types in my game despite playing with the new beta. I may just have been unlucky/unattentive, I haven't played much with the new version yet.

[kurotatsu]

3 hours ago, hungvipbcsok said:

wrong. Cursed Loot equip items from a list and new DD version simply add more item to the list. So there is no problem for DCL to equip new item with newer DD framework. Others mod that call generic list is also equip new item no problem at all.

 

It is right and wrong at the same time. New boxbinders are not added to leveled lists of the Beta 6, so i had to use xEdit to add them there, both into Beta 6 esp and DCL. After that they started to drop for me.

Harnesses (new, slave no collars ones for example) are added to DD leveled lists, but never get dropped by DCL, so my guess that harness drop code is a bit picky in DCL, and doesn't uses leveled lists.

[chaimhewast]

4 hours ago, notwavman said:

Harnesses (new, slave no collars ones for example) are added to DD leveled lists, but never get dropped by DCL, so my guess that harness drop code is a bit picky in DCL, and doesn't uses leveled lists.

It's been a hot minute since I've used DCL, but from what I remember it used hardcoded lists when equipping random devices so that it could do things like "equip 3 random black ebonite devices".

[hungvipbcsok]

11 hours ago, notwavman said:

 

It is right and wrong at the same time. New boxbinders are not added to leveled lists of the Beta 6, so i had to use xEdit to add them there, both into Beta 6 esp and DCL. After that they started to drop for me.

Harnesses (new, slave no collars ones for example) are added to DD leveled lists, but never get dropped by DCL, so my guess that harness drop code is a bit picky in DCL, and doesn't uses leveled lists.

Wow. It is more confusing than I though. I assume the final DD5.2 version will include all DD items in level list.

[Xuvish]

What is the latest link for LE?

[Jimmy_Russell]

On 6/18/2022 at 3:54 PM, Xuvish said:

What is the latest link for LE?

https://mega.nz/file/6Z0GiLpA#hCtINPclbFjCezMTjfYjmRQMtficrc0HrRUxJdmdI7I 

[Mister X]

Heyho,

 

a bug/exploit report: when trying to sell locked/equipped devices (eg in Lauras Shop), the item gets removed, you get the gold and when selling the next item, the locked one reappears.

One can exploit this to just sell two locked items alternately and generate a ton of gold.

 

Would it be possible to hide locked items in barter menus altogether, so you don't even have a chance to try and sell them? I know that they aren't shown for normal shops already but there already are quite a few vendors around, that indeed do buy and sell kinky stuff, so that would help for compatibility, wouldn't it?

[hungvipbcsok]

3 hours ago, Mister X said:

Heyho,

 

a bug/exploit report: when trying to sell locked/equipped devices (eg in Lauras Shop), the item gets removed, you get the gold and when selling the next item, the locked one reappears.

One can exploit this to just sell two locked items alternately and generate a ton of gold.

 

Would it be possible to hide locked items in barter menus altogether, so you don't even have a chance to try and sell them? I know that they aren't shown for normal shops already but there already are quite a few vendors around, that indeed do buy and sell kinky stuff, so that would help for compatibility, wouldn't it?

I did know this bug from DD4 but I cannot exploit it. It kill my game in just few try.

[naaitsab]

4 hours ago, Mister X said:

Heyho,

 

a bug/exploit report: when trying to sell locked/equipped devices (eg in Lauras Shop), the item gets removed, you get the gold and when selling the next item, the locked one reappears.

One can exploit this to just sell two locked items alternately and generate a ton of gold.

 

Would it be possible to hide locked items in barter menus altogether, so you don't even have a chance to try and sell them? I know that they aren't shown for normal shops already but there already are quite a few vendors around, that indeed do buy and sell kinky stuff, so that would help for compatibility, wouldn't it?

Not really in a performance friendly way, the stores work with a specific keyword list so that's why the do show up in special shop mods and not regular shops. I'm not aware you can make a "sell-only" menu for the vendor. If so I would be willing to change it. 

In theory there could be a register for the barter menu and when it's detected it could remove all inventory items in a special way so the rendered item stays equipped. And on close add them again. But from what I can find out how the system works in the background this will be a massive performance hit as the script is attached to the inventory item. So it will lag you game to hell and make it crash like @hungvipbcsok found out   As basically you just do a remove all when the menu opens -> equip all when the menu closes

Edited June 21, 2022 by naaitsab

[Min]

On 6/21/2022 at 8:47 AM, naaitsab said:

Not really in a performance friendly way, the stores work with a specific keyword list so that's why the do show up in special shop mods and not regular shops. I'm not aware you can make a "sell-only" menu for the vendor. If so I would be willing to change it. 

In theory there could be a register for the barter menu and when it's detected it could remove all inventory items in a special way so the rendered item stays equipped. And on close add them again. But from what I can find out how the system works in the background this will be a massive performance hit as the script is attached to the inventory item. So it will lag you game to hell and make it crash like @hungvipbcsok found out   As basically you just do a remove all when the menu opens -> equip all when the menu closes

This has been a bug since the very first release. Seemed like more trouble than it was worth to fix it at the time. These days, I know it's pretty easy to hide items in barter menus conditionally via an skse plugin. That would probably be a good solution to this.

[circuit]

5 hours ago, Min said:

This has been a bug since the very first release. Seemed like more trouble than it was worth to fix it at the time. These days, I know it's pretty easy to hide items in barter menus conditionally via an skse plugin. That would probably be a good solution to this.

Could whatever mechanism is used by gags to hide potions and food from your inventory be adapted to do this?

[Code Serpent]

6 hours ago, Min said:

This has been a bug since the very first release. Seemed like more trouble than it was worth to fix it at the time. These days, I know it's pretty easy to hide items in barter menus conditionally via an skse plugin. That would probably be a good solution to this.

If this is implemented, please add a keyword or faction that allows specific npcs to buy/sell devices.

[Kimy]

On 6/13/2022 at 1:38 PM, Min said:

EDIT: Oh, also! Is the beta backwards compatible with the previously released version? I'm not on the beta at the moment.

 

Typically, I assign a new major version number if an update contains backwards-incompatible changes. You can normally assume every minor version update to be fully backwards-compatible with every same-major version patch. E.g. 5.2 is fully compatible with 5.0, and so will be 5.3, etc.

 

5.0 is -mostly- backwards compatible with 4.x too, btw. The changes required for content mods supporting 4.0 to update to 5.0 were pretty minor. 5.0 had major internal changes to make device manipulation perform a lot faster, but most of the old 4.0 API is still working. Mods need to update to the new 5.0 API if they want to make full use of the increased performance, though.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Kimy

[Kimy]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:16 PM, Code Serpent said:

If this is implemented, please add a keyword or faction that allows specific npcs to buy/sell devices.

 

Yes, if we add this feature, it needs to be well thought-out. There are numerous "kink stores" in DD content mods that rely on devices being tradable.

[Kimy]

On 6/14/2022 at 9:34 AM, Min said:

Yeah, makes sense - This seems much nicer than the old message groups we used to maintain. I'll set up my CK this week when I have time, and see about contributing a patch that adds the functionality you are looking for. Let's talk implementation.

 

How would you folks prefer this works? Using specific device keywords (Like catsuit) seems bad, because it doesn't work for future devices (I think @Kimy has been moving the framework away from this sort of brittle design). We could make a "PartiallyRevealing" keyword to put on the catsuits, and a "PartiallyExposed" keyword to put on the corsets / belts. The script would then selectively reveal devices depending on what was equipped. This seems like a reasonable solution, though of course comes with the downside that existing devices would need this keyword if you wanted them to be supported.

 

Another way of doing it would be to hook into the equip / unequip events for catsuits, and manipulate the device hider's configuration accordingly. This would be an easy implementation (I think? I remember seeing something about us moving away from the object oriented model I had originally set up. Can we still add specific logic for categories of devices?).

 

@Kimy What do you think? Do you have a preference for implementation? Do you mind if I add the functionality @naaitsab is looking for?

 

Sure thing, go ahead! You know that particular part of the framework better than me anyway. As I said above, I never really touched the device hider code after you handed DD over to me.

 

If you need to work on the ESM, just give me a holler first, so I can make sure you're working with the newest/correct version. I don't use GitHub for DD anymore, as its size is waaaaay over GitHub's free limit these days. And for most of the time I was the only one working on the code anyway, so hosting the code online isn't that much a priority anymore. People contributing code typically post code fragments here, or send me a patch archive against the newest beta version. It's low-tech, but it works!