Tannin42 - the new head developer of NMM

[fred200]

Just for safety sake - this might be the time to clone the Mod Organizer source tree...

Virtualization is the only thing that keeps my mods usable. Believe it or not - some don't play well together.

[prinyo]

Well, it is obvious the first and probably most important decision they need to make is the hardest - what system for mod install to use. And there is no correct answer it seems as whatever they do there will be a vocal opposition. On one hand you have people who want "a clean data directory", "mod isolation" and virtualization. And there are those (like me) who want it to work the way NMM used to work before 0.6 was introduced. I guess nobody wants it to work the way NMM works now - with the virtual install and the symlinks. 

They can probably do those 2 things with no problems. Make the base manager install mods directly and provide a module that would change that to some sort of virtualization. 

If instead they choose one of those path there will be an outcry. It seems there is simply no correct answer to this except in providing a switch.

[ANGRYWOLVERINE]

Only positive for me. Both NMM and MO needed a reboot.

It means MO is dead unless Sherson, Mator or someone else takes it over.I agree it seems Tannin sold out.

[ousnius]

 

Only positive for me. Both NMM and MO needed a reboot.

It means MO is dead unless Sherson, Mator or someone else takes it over.I agree it seems Tannin sold out.

 

Anyone who has ever worked on a big software or modding project will agree, that doing what you love more compared to your previous job isn't selling out.

It's improving your life like any human should do. Selling out is when you make something or a situation worse, which isn't the case here. It's good for everyone.

[Rebel Marauder]

I was initially shocked when I read the story, this is progression and it's a good thing, competition is only good if you have the time, physical and monetary means to counter your competitors moves, which neither the nexus or tannin had so in this instance it makes sense on both personal and business levels to team up and work together to give everyone the best of both worlds.

 

 

[dinomagick]

 

Only positive for me. Both NMM and MO needed a reboot.

This is exactly my thought. And I'm pretty sure that this new mod manager can beneficiate from both sides. let's wait then.

 

 

I just recently dove into MO and though i like the details, it is quite overwhelming for the average person.   NMM was simple and easy, it got the job done and MO had more features that advanced the understanding of both the mods and how they were assembled.   But NMM also handled more than just Skyrim and Fallout.   Which MO did not.

 

But absolutely agree with the quote by ousnius and Benmc20 that both of those managers needed a Reboot.  

 

However... I completely DISAGREE with the abject vitriol being spouted by the 'MO' supporters and their ignorant comments about both Dark0ne and Tannin42.   There is no "Best", there is only what people are willing to give.  And both of those individuals have given THEIR time, money and effort to create a software to do a specific task, FREELY.

 

So "MO"/"NMM" haters/lovers, get over it.  What time, money and effort did YOU put into it?

[Twycross448]

and work together to give everyone the best of both worlds.

 

THAT remains to be seen. Time will tell. Though I, personally, think that will not be possible. Simply because there are times when you need to chose which way to go.

 

Example:

Some people want the old way of handling files that NMM has (putting everything in the actual game folder) while others want a fully virtualized system like MO has. You cannot do both (would be too expensive and time consuming to do both), so what do you do? You WILL piss off one part of the crowd regardless of what you do. There is no way around it.

 

I am happy for Tannin that he can now do what he likes full time and get paid for it, but I am not so optimistic about the results that will come of it. In my opinion, it is like this: For NMM users, it can only get better. Its development was stuck in dev hell for quite some time now. MO users, on the other side, stand to gain little and (potentially) lose much, depending on how many MO features are actually incorporated into the new NMM.

 

Of course, it CAN all play out well for everybody. But I am simply too old and skeptical to believe that. I am sorry.

[rahrahrah]

Rebel Marauder, on 14 Oct 2016 - 12:35 AM, said:Rebel Marauder, on 14 Oct 2016 - 12:35 AM, said:

I was initially shocked when I read the story, this is progression and it's a good thing, competition is only good if you have the time, physical and monetary means to counter your competitors moves, which neither the nexus or tannin had so in this instance it makes sense on both personal and business levels to team up and work together to give everyone the best of both worlds.

No horse in this race since I've never used either, but to nit-pickingly correct the text I bolded in your quote, nexus is now *employing* 3 full time developers if I'm not mistaken, not sure about other paid staff, so no, he does have money, quite a lot I'd imagine hence how he could basically buy out MO.

[lordkabal26]

 

 

I wish Tannin all the best and good luck. In all likelyhood, he will sorely need it.

Though I admit I'll be amongst the mob with the pitchforks screaming bloody murder if the (now enhanced) Nexus team thinks they could get away with a NMM v2 instead of properly incorporating MOs advanced features (like TRUE virtualization, for example).

 

That's the exact feature that makes MO such a PITA to use and it's almost totally useless to people who don't want to make excessive use of multiple profiles (which I dare saying is probably the vast majority of all Skyrim users). As I said above, people who want to use MO, can. There is no point in making NMM to be just like MO, though. Choice is a good thing. NMM and MO cater to completely different needs and different preferences. It's a good thing that they are BOTH there and that's how it should remain.

 

I'll be honest, Kimy, I don't really see the problem people seem to have with MO's virtualization, even if you only use a single profile. It keeps your game installation clean, it allows easy juggling of mods, patches for mods etc. without having to re-install them in order, easy deinstallation without having to worry about leftovers... what is so bad about it?

 

They may be here NOW, but since MO/MO2 won't be updated any longer, it is only a matter of time before they break, be it because of some windows update or because new games come out they cannot recognize because they aren't maintained anymore. And then, there will be NO choice anymore.

 

What people are seemingly ignoring is the fact that Tannin is now the LEAD developer for NMM, which basically means he has the power to incorporate everything that made MO so powerful and the top choice for many of us.

 

Take this line from the original post into consideration: The base application will then be a very simple tool with only the necessary functions. When you need an advanced feature you add the appropriate extensions.

That sounds as if the data folder virtualization will more than likely be incorporated into NMM as an extension for it.  All in all I think that this is probably going to be a major boon for not just Skyrim modding but modding any game that NMM currently supports and will support in the future.

 

[Rebel Marauder]

I'll start off with a quote "The possibilities are endless"

 

Choosing a path needn't be as cut and dry as that though, just because there is a left path and a right path does not mean that one of those paths has to be chosen, the best path to any success is always the one that is made and not followed.

 

Some people dislike change, others embrace it but that's the way life works. Making everyone happy is ultimately never going to happen, but this isn't about making those people happy, it's about giving the community / communities the best from each which can be done in a few ways.

 

There is the option of allowing the mod manager to be open for customization so that in the future extensions could be written to include new features like those that the MO crowd are used to, with their fully virtual folder structure while maintaining a basic function that NMM users are comfortable with, in such a way that without extensions it would function much the same as NMM would do now or in previous versions, and when extensions are installed it becomes much more, this is hopefully the versatility that Tannin and the dev team can include within the mod manager.

 

 

Another option would be to allow a switchable menu style featuring a basic / advanced option, where the basic would feature functions more attuned to NMM and the advanced option would be more attuned to MO, this is the harder of the 2 to implement simply because it requires everything be installed in one singular package which while it may appeal to some not only makes the download huge, but it places a huge pressure on the dev team and tannin and the updates to it would be insurmountable and it would eventually end up as stagnant as NMM has become with it's development cycle.

 

 

 

Rebel Marauder, on 14 Oct 2016 - 12:35 AM, said:

I was initially shocked when I read the story, this is progression and it's a good thing, competition is only good if you have the time, physical and monetary means to counter your competitors moves, which neither the nexus or tannin had so in this instance it makes sense on both personal and business levels to team up and work together to give everyone the best of both worlds.

No horse in this race since I've never used either, but to nit-pickingly correct the text I bolded in your quote, nexus is now *employing* 4 full time developers if I'm not mistaken, so no, he does have money, quite a lot I'd imagine hence how he could basically buy out MO.

 

 

 

I am only aware of 2 coders on board for NMM and I cannot confirm if they are indeed paid of if they're doing it voluntarily, however stating that Robin himself has the money to buy out MO is rather a ludicrous statement to put out there. Anyone assuming that MO was bought out is not only degrading MO but their degrading Tannin as a person and as developer/author/modder.

[rahrahrah]

Rebel Marauder, on 14 Oct 2016 - 02:51 AM, said:Rebel Marauder, on 14 Oct 2016 - 02:51 AM, said:

 

 

 

rahrahrah, on 14 Oct 2016 - 01:46 AM, said:rahrahrah, on 14 Oct 2016 - 01:46 AM, said:

 

Rebel Marauder, on 14 Oct 2016 - 12:35 AM, said:Rebel Marauder, on 14 Oct 2016 - 12:35 AM, said:Rebel Marauder, on 14 Oct 2016 - 12:35 AM, said:

I was initially shocked when I read the story, this is progression and it's a good thing, competition is only good if you have the time, physical and monetary means to counter your competitors moves, which neither the nexus or tannin had so in this instance it makes sense on both personal and business levels to team up and work together to give everyone the best of both worlds.

No horse in this race since I've never used either, but to nit-pickingly correct the text I bolded in your quote, nexus is now *employing* 4 full time developers if I'm not mistaken, so no, he does have money, quite a lot I'd imagine hence how he could basically buy out MO.

 

 

 

I am only aware of 2 coders on board for NMM and I cannot confirm if they are indeed paid of if they're doing it voluntarily, however stating that Robin himself has the money to buy out MO is rather a ludicrous statement to put out there. Anyone assuming that MO was bought out is not only degrading MO but their degrading Tannin as a person and as developer/author/modder.

 

Now 3 full time coders and all are paid positions - as stated when he invited people to apply for each one.  He also states in his recent forum post about NMM/MO that he made sure he had enough money to cover a years wages for Tannin before bringing him in..

As for degrading? nope.  If he can get a good wage for doing something he was previously doing on his own time then good for him.

[SexyTop69]

I think the big issue is trust between the 2 organizers. Heard NMM can be really intrusive, so I didn't use anything really until I found MO. I have had good luck with it but seeing as MO won't be developed until hopefully someone continues it kinda has me feeling down. It seems like an good Idea to have him working with them since he seems to be exceptional with his craft. However until this "better" NMO comes out I'll simply be expecting the worse situation possible until it comes out that way if it happens to be so it won't be so disappointing, but it happens to be really good it will be surprisingly impressive to be so. 

[Piratez]

I highly doubt file virtualization and profile system will be supported as NMM supports wider variety of games. If this happens to be true, I'm going Wrye bash for sure.

[27X]

 

 NMM and MO cater to completely different needs and different preferences.

 

Not sure what NMM does on your planet but on planet earth it loads mods, which is exactly also what MO does.

 

 

[squares]

Not sure how to feel about it. As long as my Skyrim folder is isolated from mods MO style, I'm fine, I guess. My only fear is that there will be no option no more and this can go bad places, especially with Dark0ne incharge.

[ANGRYWOLVERINE]

 

 

 

Only positive for me. Both NMM and MO needed a reboot.

It means MO is dead unless Sherson, Mator or someone else takes it over.I agree it seems Tannin sold out.

 

Anyone who has ever worked on a big software or modding project will agree, that doing what you love more compared to your previous job isn't selling out.

It's improving your life like any human should do. Selling out is when you make something or a situation worse, which isn't the case here. It's good for everyone.

 

Not necessarily so.It give the Nexus control over what will be the only real mod organizer there is.

I think Taninin should have come to the community and offered MO first and asked if anyone would take it, disclosed his plans before he took the job and  and then moved on.

 

[DoctaSax]

Not necessarily so.It give the Nexus control over what will be the only real mod organizer there is.

I think Taninin should have come to the community and offered MO first and asked if anyone would take it, disclosed his plans before he took the job and  and then moved on.

 

Asking if anyone in particular would take it would probably be against the terms of the licenses MO is released under, which state that anyone whatsoever can take it. NMM uses similar licenses. Both existing programs will continue to exist, they just won't be developed any longer by the people doing it now. Others who want to, are allowed.

[MorePrinniesDood]

 

Not necessarily so.It give the Nexus control over what will be the only real mod organizer there is.

I think Taninin should have come to the community and offered MO first and asked if anyone would take it, disclosed his plans before he took the job and  and then moved on.

 

Asking if anyone in particular would take it would probably be against the terms of the licenses MO is released under, which state that anyone whatsoever can take it. NMM uses similar licenses. Both existing programs will continue to exist, they just won't be developed any longer by the people doing it now. Others who want to, are allowed.

 

 

That's the beauty of open-source licenses. Anyone can start a fork of them without needing to ask permission.

 

[Numerals]

I think this event may split the community into two camps, the Nexus camp favors NMM+MO the other camp favors WB as the ultimate mod manager.

 

This reminds me about the heated mods paywall discussion last year that split the community into two groups.

 

A mod installer/organizer preference split doesn't blow up a mod community.

[D_ManXX2]

Dont be so surpriced, it almost exploded already when bethesda tried to introduce payed modding.

[Guest enip]

Mod managers are not as critical as paid mods where modders work are stolen upload by the thief and making profit off of it. Seeing as how well bethesda manages the mods on their site right now with console mods, it would of been a disaster. I wouldn't say it's as severe, but a AIO mod manager is not the solution.

 

People are going to want it to be more like MO and others are going to want it to be more like NMM. There is no win out of this for either sides. It was best to leave it the way it was and just let Tannin give someone else permission to take MO over who has the time and energy to do it. Or let someone with the time and energy collaborate. But there are other alternative solutions for mod managers, it's just that there isn't nothing else out there like MO, otherwise we would of migrated over to that instead.

[ratrace]

My first gut feeling was a big and desperate "NOOOOOOOOOOO". After a while I felt a bit of hope that with Tannin getting paid for his work he can invest more time and effort in his programming, so progress would finally go on. Let's face it: MO 2 development was pretty much on a hiatus, progress was creepingly slow if there was any at all. I seriously doubted that we would see an out-of-beta-release ever.

 

I just hope that Tannin will port his code over to NMM and make it as powerful as MO was. Robin Scott, from his point of view, imho made a good move to hire Tannin. This shows that R. S. finally understood that the old NMM was next to unuseable and that installing mods needs more than just one-clicking the install files. Engines like the Creation Engine are so unstable and bug out so easily that this "click-click and be happy" attitude just doesn't do it. Modding a game like Skyrim just needs a good chunk of knowledge. If you're not willing to learn, let it be.

 

At Tannin, if you ever read that: please, PLEASE don't cut out any MO features. All of them had their reasons to be there and were essential for responsible and headache-free modding. I've rarely seen a program that was so well-focused on what needs to be there without burdening it with useless crap "features". Don't go for the "one click does it all" bullshit that we last saw in previous NMM versions.

 

The only reason why I didn't use NMM was that it was just crap. It couldn't do what I needed it to do, it couldn't handle large load orders, couldn't sort mods and esps independently from each other for example, didn't elaborately show mod conflicts (the actual files that conflicted), it didn't allow to integrate Wrye Bash for the Bashed Patch (I came from Wrye Bash) and so on, so I used MO. I have no dogmatic "no Nexus stuff" attitude. If the new NMM is as good as MO, I will use it.

 

Nevertheless, I am still quite worried.

[prinyo]

Well, the first piece of bad news is already here it seems. 

So on one hand you have MO users who hope the virtualization will exist in the new tool. On the other the advanced NMM users who want a stable manager that works the way 0.56.1 does. One thing those 2 groups have in common - they hate the way NMM currently works. 

And both will be unhappy when reading this post by Tannin from this morning:

 

"The default setting will probably work similar to what NMM is doing currently, using symlinks or hardlinks into the game directory because this is simply more robust and doesn't upset antivirus tools as much"

 

 

 

 

And here is an earlier post to put things into perspective.

 

 https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/4940905-big-changes-for-the-nexus-mod-manager-and-the-introduction-of-tannin42-our-new-head-of-nmm-development/?p=43229950

 

"It's no rebranded MO, it's a fresh start. "Controversial" MO features like the virtual filesystem may exist as options / extensions but they will not be defaults or requirements.

With MO I was happy to develop a tool that would only appeal to a small crowd. It was always intended to be complement the existing solutions like OBMM/NMM or wrye bash, not to replace them.

Now we're writing a modding tool for all Nexus users so obviously the approach will be different. I'm not ignorant of the problems with MO but with MO I had one target audience, now it's a different one.

We try to make the new mod manager attractive to advanced & MO users through extensibility, not by doing the same again and hoping the majority of users will suddenly like it better."

 

 

Added

Well, I added my point of view here.

[Contessa]

Well, the first piece of bad news is already here it seems. 

So on one hand you have MO users who hope the virtualization logic will exist in the new tool. On the other the advanced NMM users who want a stable manager that works the way 0.56.1 does. One thing those 2 groups have in common - they hate the way NMM currently works. 

And both will be unhappy when reading this post by Tannin from this morning:

 

"The default setting will probably work similar to what NMM is doing currently, using symlinks or hardlinks into the game directory because this is simply more robust and doesn't upset antivirus tools as much"

 

 

 

And here is an earlier post to put things into perspective.

 

 https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/4940905-big-changes-for-the-nexus-mod-manager-and-the-introduction-of-tannin42-our-new-head-of-nmm-development/?p=43229950

 

"It's no rebranded MO, it's a fresh start. "Controversial" MO features like the virtual filesystem may exist as options / extensions but they will not be defaults or requirements.

With MO I was happy to develop a tool that would only appeal to a small crowd. It was always intended to be complement the existing solutions like OBMM/NMM or wrye bash, not to replace them.

Now we're writing a modding tool for all Nexus users so obviously the approach will be different. I'm not ignorant of the problems with MO but with MO I had one target audience, now it's a different one.

We try to make the new mod manager attractive to advanced & MO users through extensibility, not by doing the same again and hoping the majority of users will suddenly like it better."

 

Ugh... I mean I can't fault the guy for getting paid but that sounds like a step back in my opinion. I gave NMM a shot when it supposedly had MO's virtualization but I found it to be annoying as all hell compared to how smoothly MO's was set up.

[Kimy]

Well, the first piece of bad news is already here it seems. 

So on one hand you have MO users who hope the virtualization will exist in the new tool. On the other the advanced NMM users who want a stable manager that works the way 0.56.1 does. One thing those 2 groups have in common - they hate the way NMM currently works. 

And both will be unhappy when reading this post by Tannin from this morning:

 

"The default setting will probably work similar to what NMM is doing currently, using symlinks or hardlinks into the game directory because this is simply more robust and doesn't upset antivirus tools as much"

 

 

 

 

And here is an earlier post to put things into perspective.

 

 https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/4940905-big-changes-for-the-nexus-mod-manager-and-the-introduction-of-tannin42-our-new-head-of-nmm-development/?p=43229950

 

"It's no rebranded MO, it's a fresh start. "Controversial" MO features like the virtual filesystem may exist as options / extensions but they will not be defaults or requirements.

With MO I was happy to develop a tool that would only appeal to a small crowd. It was always intended to be complement the existing solutions like OBMM/NMM or wrye bash, not to replace them.

Now we're writing a modding tool for all Nexus users so obviously the approach will be different. I'm not ignorant of the problems with MO but with MO I had one target audience, now it's a different one.

We try to make the new mod manager attractive to advanced & MO users through extensibility, not by doing the same again and hoping the majority of users will suddenly like it better."

 

 

Added

Well, I added my point of view here.

 

Call me relieved. I totally wouldn't mind them putting MO's virtualization hackwork into NMM as a plugin or extension, but I am glad to hear that they have no plans forcing it down the throats of current NMM users who want to keep things simple and straightforward.