The right of mod users

[Ixum]

Thank you all for your input, it has been refreshing to see so many voice their opinion. As a result of this I think it is fair to say EULAs are not wanted and not legal. Another thought is the wishes and needs of mod makers.

 

I feel I respect VP too much to go against his wishes, even if I do not understand his reasons to single me out. I love this community, I have donated to animators, I have commissioned animations (more WW coming soon bitches), and I feel that I have been an active member of this community. One thing that worries me is the president that this brings a long. When does Ashal feel that he doesn't like certain kinds of sexual interactions? When does Leito86 forbid gay characters from having sex using his anims? I have a tattoo overlay mod for RaceMenu, who thinks I should reduce the right to use it to gay ppl only? 

 

As I said before I respect VP,  I do not appriecate the can of worms he has opened with his user ban.

[shane4244]

 

Thank you all for your input, it has been refreshing to see so many voice their opinion. As a result of this I think it is fair to say EULAs are not wanted and not legal. Another thought is the wishes and needs of mod makers.

 

I feel I respect VP too much to go against his wishes, even if I do not understand his reasons to single me out. I love this community, I have donated to animators, I have commissioned animations (more WW coming soon bitches), and I feel that I have been an active member of this community. One thing that worries me is the president that this brings a long. When does Ashal feel that he doesn't like certain kinds of sexual interactions? When does Leito86 forbid gay characters from having sex using his anims? I have a tattoo overlay mod for RaceMenu, who thinks I should reduce the right to use it to gay ppl only? 

 

As I said before I respect VP,  I do not appriecate the can of worms he has opened with his user ban.

 

 

I'm happy you settled on what your going to do in this situation

 

I don't think you need to worry about Ashal deciding something is not to his taste and not allowing it on the site. He has already stated he doesn't care for creature stuff yet he still updates and includes it in SexLab and does not remove other mods based on personal taste. So as a site you have nothing to worry about. Individule mod authors decisions have nothing to do with the community as a whole

 

Are you suggesting we as a community impose rules that force content creators to include features in their mods they don't like or force them to allow others to do what ever they want with the mod? For someone who has brought up censorship this is a much worse form of taking away freedom. I don't think many mod authors would hang around in a community like that.

[Impulseman45]

I am a mod author and as one I know that once my mods and their assets are uploaded to the internet that I will from that point loose any and all real control of those assets. VP knows this all to well and attempting to do what he is doing is unprecedented in the game modding community as a whole. To tell someone that they not only can't use the mod and its assets in public view, but that he can't even use the mod on his computer in private by stating that he revokes the license and any further use will be met with action is deplorable. He knows he can't make this stand up in court, even if he tried. The moment he hit the upload button it went knowingly out of his control. Now he wants to try and tell people that they can and can't use something he posted publicly for everyone to use. This is crux of the issue. Of course he may not have realized that someone may use his assets to make art in a form he personally does not like or approve of. If he had, he should have made some very clear written statements to the effect of how the assets could and could not be used. But he didn't. And trying to apply a retroactive EULA is not going to cover him on this in the least. All that it originally stated is that he head to be credited for the work, no one could claim the assets as there own and re-upload somewhere else and he stated that,  the mod , was to be available on only certain websites. No mod author as far as I know has tried to do anything like this before. I get that he feels that this is his hard work, but than he really should have just kept it to himself and be done with it. He knew full well he can't control the usage of the assets. And what is he going to do about the underground and fridge sites that take mods from other sites and change the ELUA and the .esp files to cover other languages. If he gives them a take down they are just going to laugh at him and keep on going and offer the mod as usual. Good luck on that front VP, I wish you luck.

 

So here we are, with a pretty well known mod maker, taking an action that has not been done before. How this effects him, and those who use his mod and assets is yet still to be seen. I for one have stated that I never used his mod. I was not into the whole HVOK physic bodies thing myself. I did think the body was much better than the stock body, as stated before I always felt a strange undercurrent when it came to him and the team that put it all together. How many times did he abort SOS and SAM and hand it off to other mod makers to deal with. Yes I use a nude mod for realism. If I steal all of an NPC's belongings and their clothes they should be nude when I am done. So this will not effect me, and I will simply not ever use anything from him the future because of this whole situation. Any other mod author that ends up pulling the same thing will also go on my list of  mod authors to stay away from. What all of you choose to do is, in the end up to the individual. VP has shown that he has no ones interest but his own in this situation. He can in the next few weeks tell the whole of the modding community to stop using his SAM body mod and delete it from there computers. Will you do as he asks? Of course not. But he could try it.

 

I will leave it up to everyone else to take away from this whole thing what they want. But in summary, Ixum used SAM, a male nude body mod, to make some very racy art, he got told to stop, and then was told the license to use SAM, that mod, was revoked and he had to completely stop what he was doing and if he didn't he was looking at an all out attack on all of the art that was made with the SAM mod, meaning most likely a DMCA take-down notice. He also went as far as to turn Ixum in for mod theft at the Nexus. He got Ixum band from the site and all his character presets and textures taken down, while all the other textures for SAM by other mod makers were allowed to stay up. Maybe because those other textures can also be used on the other male body mods he had no issue or grounds to attack them and ask for there removal. So this makes this a very clear case of a precision attack on Ixum. VP still could do an all out attack again and send a DMCA notice out of spite, and I would not be surprised that shortly he will. He has some kind of a personal vendetta against this Ixum. All the evidence shows what this guy is all about. He likes to give us mods and then take them away and or hand them off to other to deal with. If he doesn't like what someone is doing with his mod and assets he attacks them. Enough said.

[windpl]

If he is so awful, no one will make dependency on his mod in future, no?

Community will always clear itself after some time.

[DocClox]

There's just one faction in life that tends to hijack everything for the sake of the propaganda of the own agenda - zealots. In this case the uncompromising zealotry is directed against the company policy of Bethesda which turns the 'settler campaign' into a religio-political one that denies any dissent from the agenda.

Takes two to tango, Jazz.

 

On topic,

 

As a result of this I think it is fair to say EULAs are not wanted and not legal. Another thought is the wishes and needs of mod makers.

Unwanted, certainly. Illegal, not so much. The way VP tried to impose one on you, retrospectively: that lacked any sort of legal standing. On ther other hand, you can legally do something like the GNU Public License which says "you are not required to accept the terms of this licence, however nothing else gives you the right to use this software".

 

Of course, that's not what happened here, and even if it were, it wouldn't apply retroactively. I just wanted to make the point that they're not all without legal standing.

 

As I said before I respect VP,  I do not appriecate the can of worms he has opened with his user ban.

I sympathize entirely.

[Guest]

Small note to everybody: Use the NEW SITE (new.loverslab.com), or all your recent posts will just disappear.

[guk]

As windpl mentioned already, IIRC the Bethesda EULA / ToS already revoke any possible claims of copyrights from their modders. This is common practise for all games and in particular modding tools shipping with them.

And even a blind person can see that the SoS + SAM bodies are directly based on the vanilla assets, when comparing the meshes and textures / UV maps. The scripts also require the Creation Kit, so that's that.

 

Also i'd like to know the legal facts, wether a mod can actually be regarded as "software". To my knowledge, the only software here is Skyrim which is required to have the data files (mods) do anything in the first place. Again the use of these mods fall under jurisdiction of Bethesda's EULA, anything we talk about permissions is pure courtesy and done voluntarily. Abuse of the DMCA system is another story.

 

That being said, my personal opinion is that everyone should respect the wishes of mod authors. I don't know the motives of VectorPlexus, perhaps he noticed that he gets older and does no longer want his mods be used in conjunction with things that are unacceptable to the public?

We all don't know what we are going to do in 20 or 30 years, but if private investigators or journalists dig up stories that a mod of yours was used for bestiality porn or worse, you can say goodbye to your political career or whatever the future might bring to you.

 

Although after visiting the link to his site with the statement of LadyM, there must have been some long-time drama going on that i am neither part of nor do i want to know anything about. It's sad when things end that way, this is supposed to be our hobby and brighten our daily life. Instead of causing hatred and drama.

 

 

One thing that worries me is the president that this brings a long. When does Ashal feel that he doesn't like certain kinds of sexual interactions? When does Leito86 forbid gay characters from having sex using his anims? I have a tattoo overlay mod for RaceMenu, who thinks I should reduce the right to use it to gay ppl only?

Oh that is already the case, anything that can be perceived as "underage" is entirely banned here. Not just from SexLab, but any mods that contain any form of non-barbie textures or uncensored body meshes that could be used for underage-perceivable game characters.

 

Reasoning for this is that such mods are highly illegal in certain countries like the UK, Canada or Australia which have abandoned basic human rights about the free expression of art. Basically to prevent forum members from those countries going to jail or at least be under close surveillance for the rest of their lives.

However the same illegality is true for depiction of homosexuality in a large number of countries, so if the protection of forum users is to be taken serious, then gay modders would be on thin ice here as well.

 

That is of course, just hypothetically speaking. We all know that underage + sexuality is the one big moral taboo in our western societies; and nothing will be banned because of gay content here on Loverslab any time soon. Well unless Trump becomes president, the NATO and EU are being disbanded and the russians + chinese can invade half the world, but that's another story ;-)

[Cema]

This Eula thing looks like a lot of horseshit to me.

 

There is a difference between having people respect you to the point of not stealing your work because you deliver good mods and acting like a little dictator who wants to have everyone obey his rules. This second category will in the end lose everything : respect + the property of their mod.

[Mickster]

This is some high school tier drama.

 

One one side pulling the rug from under someone like this over pixel porn seems pretty silly to me.

 

On the other I ask myself if it's really worth the headache of dealing with this mess.

 

[Ixum]

This is some high school tier drama.

 

One one side pulling the rug from under someone like this over pixel porn seems pretty silly to me.

 

On the other I ask myself if it's really worth the headache of dealing with this mess.

 

Well, if I only used the body mod for playing I would just ignore this, but since I run a fairly popular blog and my Skyrim vids are the more popular content I feel my blog followers might be dissapointed if I do not even try to resolve the issue. Sadly I've had to take it up on this forum since the mod author will not discuss it, and that way maybe get some clarity on what is right and wrong in this particular situation, for me and my followers.

[Shadowscale]

I feel that you should still continue doing what you wish to do. The development on SAM Recoded at LadyM's site is staying on that site (from what I gather) unless the coders wish to move it. So technically speaking it isn't part of his EULA. He's singling you out for some reason which probably is likely the popularity you have he may feel jealous of or he's planning on charging money for SAM's later versions.

[srayesmanll]

The development on SAM Recoded at LadyM's site is staying on that site (from what I gather) unless the coders wish to move it.

 

Just checked there and all of the SAM Recoded stuff is gone.  I'm trying to look through the forum there to see any additional news, but it looks like it's gone.  So only available on VP's site apparently.

[Shadowscale]

 

The development on SAM Recoded at LadyM's site is staying on that site (from what I gather) unless the coders wish to move it.

 

Just checked there and all of the SAM Recoded stuff is gone.  I'm trying to look through the forum there to see any additional news, but it looks like it's gone.  So only available on VP's site apparently.

 

 

It seems its on ladymograine's forums instead of download section.

 

Edit: http://www.ladymoiraine.com/index.php?/forums/forum/303-hymnarus-skyrim-mods/

[Arhon]

Lets make peace and some loving.

 

Then back to work.

[Numerals]

 

The development on SAM Recoded at LadyM's site is staying on that site (from what I gather) unless the coders wish to move it.

 

Just checked there and all of the SAM Recoded stuff is gone.  I'm trying to look through the forum there to see any additional news, but it looks like it's gone.  So only available on VP's site apparently.

 

 

The SAM section on HoT is invisible unless you're a registered user, in which case it is under Bethesda Games. That's the extent of the paranoia I've mentioned.

 

Really, the next logical step is to stop releasing it to the public altogether, and just circulate among a very-closed group while posting screenshots to tease the entire world. I've seen people doing that before and I know all too well how it isn't really that far from the current situation of that mod.

[srayesmanll]

 

 

The SAM section on HoT is invisible unless you're a registered user, in which case it is under Bethesda Games. That's the extent of the paranoia I've mentioned.

 

Really, the next logical step is to stop releasing it to the public altogether, and just circulate among a very-closed group while posting screenshots to tease the entire world. I've seen people doing that before and I know all too well how it isn't really that far from the current situation of that mod.

 

 

Actually they may have been in the middle of reorganizing things.  When I went there initially, I looked throughout the "skyrim mods for males" forum and it's subforums (including Hymnaru's subforum), and there was nothing there.  Now when I check it, the downloads are available in the Hymnaru subform.  However they are removed from the regular download section currently.  Just to be clear, I'm not a member there & they appear to be downloadable without logging in.  I wonder if they will reappear in the downloads section under Hymnaru's named section.

 

 

You know, 1 person I'd love to hear from about all of this is B3llisario.  He was supposed to be taking over the scripting for SAM like he did for SOS, and that's supposedly why he has had a reduced presence here on LL.  He may have some more insight/info about this if he's had more contact with VP. 

[prinyo]

It is the Top Download in Downloads. And in it's own download category as it has been for the past months.

[Impulseman45]

My real and final post on this.

 

VP's timing of this new EULA is right in line with the E3 announcement of Skyrim Enhanced and mods on console for it. So I believe this his attempt to lock down and hold control of SAM from being ported to consoles in any form. That is his prerogative of course. But throwing out a new EULA and trying to make it retroactive is not going to muster him any love and or support. 

 

The other main issue is his case against Ixum, It will not stand up in any way, and VP is the one that is the wrong here period. This is why.

 

Ixum has been making video and static art based on SAM for over 2 years now. Not once has VP come out said anything to him. He never said once please stop using SAM in this fashion, its not what I intended. He had ample opportunity to stop Ixum from the very beginning. He did nothing. So here it is 2 years later and after Bethesda announces that Skyrim is getting a remaster and it getting mods on consoles, VP decides its time to stomp on Ixum. His first attack was on the Nexus. He zeroed in on all of his mods reporting them all as stolen. By the way, how is making a character preset stealing anything? The textures for SAM were open to all to edit as they saw fit as long as SAM and VP were credited. No other mod author of anything SAM related was attacked. In the end VP ended up getting Ixum's Nexus account closed on false theft charges. Vp then produces this new EULA that is supposed to be retroactive and everyone that already has SAM has to abide by, not going to happen VP, its just not going to work. Then the second attack on Ixum, he is told that his license to use SAM is revoked and he can't even use it personally on his computer. Like how is VP even going to enforce this, really. He than gives him until July 11, 2016 to comply and stop using SAM in any fashion. This was a two prong attack, but I honestly and personally after talking to Ixum many times in private, do not think it is the end. I do believe that VP is going to go father and try and make all of Ixum's art go away. We all know how this can be done, and I do believe that the next step. Look I am not trying to be a fear monger here. But the facts are the facts. It took 2 years for VP to get his act together to go after Ixum. Give me a break. I honestly believe that if he addressed this issue 2 years ago this whole thing would have never happened. But all the timing in the world point to him taking action that is just out right wrong and he did all of this wrong. Attacking someone on the Nexus that is not stealing your work, but claiming they did should be an indefinable offense and Dark-one should completely ban and block VP from the site for it, and take no further attempts from him to remove any other SAM related mods. SAM had an open use policy and changing that at the 11th hour is just plain not how things are done in the modding community. 

 

This final note is to VectorPlexus if you are reading any of these posts.

 

All of this is because you, VP, decided, that after 2 years you want to shut the door on SAM. VP, you left the door open for 2 years, the cats, the horses, SAM is out the door now. Closing it is not going to put SAM back inside and make it all neat and clean again. There is nothing to put back. Everyone will just use their old copy of SAM that is not covered by your new EULA, yes even your tactic of making retroactive is not going to work. It never has, and it has been tried in various courtrooms around the world. It almost always looses, period. Yeah, Ixum may have made some questionable art with it, but it was your responsibility to have nipped it then and there, not 2 years later. And not in this way.

[Guest endgameaddiction]

People need to do what I do, when you download a mod, use a screen capture software to screenshot the whole page from top to bottom in one image and save it. I normally do it just to have it as a read me document since mod most modders fail to provide a read me text file in their archive anymore. But with this if there is anything in credits and permission you have evidence at hand in case in the future it gets modified by the author and something like this happens.

[Ixum]

In the end VP ended up getting Ixum's Nexus account closed on false theft charges

 

 

This is not true, the only thing deleted was the SAM texture mod I made. The presets and other mods are still there.

[Impulseman45]

 

In the end VP ended up getting Ixum's Nexus account closed on false theft charges

 

 

This is not true, the only thing deleted was the SAM texture mod I made. The presets and other mods are still there.

 

 

Sorry about that, When I went to the site after the news I couldn't find your account or any of your mods. So something was going on there. But its good to here that things are still up. But he still used mod theft as a means to get it taken down.

[Benmc20]

 

In the end VP ended up getting Ixum's Nexus account closed on false theft charges

 

This is not true, the only thing deleted was the SAM texture mod I made. The presets and other mods are still there.

 

Are you totally BAN in the Nexus now ? if not, try to mail/PM DarkOne and link him this very topic.

[Ixum]

 

 

In the end VP ended up getting Ixum's Nexus account closed on false theft charges

 

This is not true, the only thing deleted was the SAM texture mod I made. The presets and other mods are still there.

 

Are you totally BAN in the Nexus now ? if not, try to mail/PM DarkOne and link him this very topic.

 

 

Hmmm, why exactly? To get my texture mod re-instated on nexus? I fear that would just anger VP and make him go after my blog. Just to clarify how that went down. A moderator on Nexus wanted to know the backgrounds before possibly removing the texture mod. At the time I thought it was about reigning in the SAM assets to Ladymoiraine.com. I told the moderator to freely delete the content without any further discussion, which was done. A few moments later I hear from LM that I my texture mod will be banned from LM aswell and that I am to be removed from the site - or - to not be able to view any SAM files on LM. This was extortion on behalf of VP, either ban me from the content or he will pull all his content from LM.

[Guest endgameaddiction]

reinstate your account. It's not right to get banned over false accusations. Very unethical and unprofessional from Nexus if you ask me. But we all know how much of saints they are. Shoot first, research later.

[Ixum]

reinstate your account. It's not right to get banned over false accusations. Very unethical and unprofessional from Nexus if you ask me. But we all know how much of saints they are. Shoot first, research later.

 This is not the case at all. I edited my post above. And just to be clear, as I said in my earlier posts my account was never banned, just that one mod. Hell, they didnt even ban my nude Jesus preset, and kept an eye on the comments, so I have respect for the dudes on Nexus, they have been good to me.