New move from Bethesda vs mod stealing.

[srayesmanll]

 

 

 

 

 

Is that like the way the only bad thing about "mass murder" is the "murder" part?

 

 

Yeah. As "mass creation" is better than "mass destruction"

And presumably "mod creation" is better than "mod censorship".

 

Also "crash course" is better than "crash landing", "boob bounce" is better than "boob sag" and words with negative connotations sound worse than words with positive ones.

 

So what's your point? I mean really?

 

 

 

"stealing", it sounds bad. Let's call it "spreading" instead.

Imagine if you have a cart full of apples and you want to gift it to the people, you must make a lot of effort to warn everyone that you have free apples for them... and then magically a bunch of people arrive and decide to spread your apples to other people, so your work will be smaller and you'll obtain your goal faster! wohoo!

 

 

Until the apple seller next door takes all of your free apples, gives them away, then claims that HE was the one giving them away (without telling anyone the apples originally came from you).  That would OK, right?

 

[DocClox]

"stealing", it sounds bad. Let's call it "spreading" instead.

Mmm... it's a bit like referring to "mass murder" as "ethnic cleansing" though. It doesn't sound as bad, but that doesn't mean the behavior being described is necessarily ethical or desirable.

 

Imagine if you have a cart full of apples and you want to gift it to the people, you must make a lot of effort to warn everyone that you have free apples for them... and then magically a bunch of people arrive and decide to spread your apples to other people, so your work will be smaller and you'll obtain your goal faster! wohoo!

And as far as it goes, that's fine. But maybe the apple grower is giving them away free because he wants the kudos for growing them and giving them away. If a couple of kids turn up at first light, take his entire stock and then give them away under their own banner, he's probably going to stop growing apples. Or stop giving them away, anyway.

 

Or if the kids store the apples in unhygienic conditions and then give them away half-rotten but under the name of the original grower. He gets grief while the kids get the kudos. That's another grower no longer giving stuff away.

 

Or maybe (as seems to have been happening a lot) the kids are just being deliberately rude and offensive, taking instead of asking and being deliberately rude about the grower.

 

The problem isn't so much a question of financial loss for the apple growers. The problem seems to be a basic lack of respect for people who, at the end of the day, are working their arses off so the rest of us can have nice things for free. It doesn't seem like a good way to encourage people to grow apples or to give them away. And if the apple growers stop, we'll all be worse off.

 

But yeah, "stealing" does misrepresent the process somewhat. But that misrepresentation is far from being the only problem here.

[Jazzman]

Get the impression as if the joviality of LL is misused as sideshow by those that don't have the guts to side with mod theft on the Nexus or in the Bethesda forum for that matter. I mean, every good man is free to express himself where in fact the majority of the mods in question are stored, even if his/her fate is sealed already after the first suspicious quack. I have seen scores of screaming kids walking the plank over there for much less. When will they ever learn?

[Guest]

 

 

Until the apple seller next door takes all of your free apples, gives them away, then claims that HE was the one giving them away (without telling anyone the apples originally came from you).  That would OK, right?

 

It depends. If I do give away apples because I have a suprlus of them and I like to share, I really wouldn't care. But if I'm an unemployed that still think that giving away free apples will lead a farmer to notice my gesture and the quality of my apples, and he will hire me to work on his field, then... oh boi, then everything changes, I have for sure all the rights to complain. Huh. *snort*.

 

But maybe the apple grower is giving them away free because he wants the kudos for growing them and giving them away.

 

You mean what happens if the apple grower is supposed to give apples for free and instead he's asking an implicit payback (probably it's simply "pay", not payback)? just like those websites that tell you "subscribe, it's free!" and then you find your email bombed with spam cos they sold your address?

 

What about You. Are You happy or sad if someone spreads Your mods? do You prefer that Your mod is buried, taken down, or you'd prefer take it down yourself... or allows someone else to enjoy as you enjoyed doing it?

 

That's why I said that initial sentence, I really believe that. I really believe that the modding scenery could really have better perspectives with a free roam of them mods. Hoping that this will help to purge the mod scenery from the drama. Less drama = more fun.

[DocClox]

 

But maybe the apple grower is giving them away free because he wants the kudos for growing them and giving them away.

You mean what happens if the apple grower is supposed to give apples for free

 

Sorry, "supposed" by whom? Is there some rulebook that specifies the conditions under which I may or may not release my work?

 

and instead he's asking an implicit payback (probably it's simply "pay", not payback)? just like those websites that tell you "subscribe, it's free!" and then you find your email bombed with spam cos they sold your address?

 

An implicit payback like having someone say "hey dude, nice work!" from time to time. Are you really going to try and tell me that is exactly equivalent to demanding an email address up front and selling it to spammers? Because I really can't see it myself.

 

What about You. Are You happy or sad if someone spreads Your mods?

I think I'd like to be asked, thank you very much. I don't suppose I'd withhold permission in most cases; generally I'd be flattered. But I think I'd like to be asked.

 

Do you have a problem with that?

 

do You prefer that Your mod is buried, taken down, or you'd prefer take it down yourself... or allows someone else to enjoy as you enjoyed doing it?

I think I'd like to be asked. And to be honest, I think if I'm doing the work, I think I should be the one who decides what additional rights to grant above those defined by copyright law.

 

That's why I said that initial sentence, I really believe that. I really believe that the modding scenery could really have better perspectives with a free roam of them mods. Hoping that this will help to purge the mod scenery from the drama. Less drama = more fun.

And, oddly enough, I don't entirely disagree with you there. I'm a free software kind of guy. On the other hand, this is a bit more complex than "information wants to be free". People are seeing others claim credit for their own hard work. Others are having their names dragged through the mud for failing to support mods on platforms where the mods cannot run for technical reasons.

 

I'm having a hard time seeing how that is going to result in either less drama or more fun.

[Numerals]

 

Until the apple seller next door takes all of your free apples, gives them away, then claims that HE was the one giving them away (without telling anyone the apples originally came from you).  That would OK, right?

It depends. If I do give away apples because I have a suprlus of them and I like to share, I really wouldn't care. [...]

 

 

That represents the view of you and you only, not all modders.

 

A good number of modders do care, and from my past experience with other modding communities, a good number of them do shut down all mod sharing activities after their (repeated) requests to take stolen mods down are ignored.

[panthercom]

 I've created a few mods; I don't really care where they end up. I don't even care if some fool pays money to

download them. I do care about being credited for my work, but even then, I'm not going to lose any sleep

because some guy in Buttfuckistan claims credit for my work. The people I care about know what I did, and

that's all that matters. Now if someone stole my bicycle I would want to track them down and set fire to their

house while they are sleeping

[DoctaSax]

I think I'd like to be asked, thank you very much. I don't suppose I'd withhold permission in most cases; generally I'd be flattered. But I think I'd like to be asked.

 

(snip)

 

And, oddly enough, I don't entirely disagree with you there. I'm a free software kind of guy.

There's a wee bit of a contradiction in that. Most free software kind of guys don't wait to be asked to share their IP. They just PD or copyleft it.

 

And I agree with AJ that the modding scene would be better off if this was encouraged more. Nowadays, due to the outrage against mod theft, it seems as if modders are all about demarbleizing, DRM'ing their stuff, or shouting at the top of their lungs that they have copyright. Sure, we do, but what of it? Let's share that too, is what I say.

[GrimReaper]

Idk. Some people like having their stuff in one place so they can update things easier, don't have to visit a couple of sites for any comments, bug reports or tech issues and so on. There's also people that mod to simply push their ego, but that's fine, too. Your choice. You might not be a big contribution to the modding scene as a whole but most people aren't so eh, who cares.

 

Wrye wrote some interesting stuff about parlor vs. cathedral modding and that's still a good read today. And yes, in the end every modder piggybacks on other people's work and information so even if you think you are gods gift to the modding community thanks to your mad skillz, be they real or imagined, you still are a small piece of the whole picture.

 

The important thing in my opinion is that you have a choice. Being forced to walk down one very specific path is not always a good solution and for the end user it's a good thing, too - if people have a choice you can ignore or make fun of the ones that are a chore to deal with.

[DocClox]

 

I think I'd like to be asked, thank you very much. I don't suppose I'd withhold permission in most cases; generally I'd be flattered. But I think I'd like to be asked.

 

(snip)

 

And, oddly enough, I don't entirely disagree with you there. I'm a free software kind of guy.

There's a wee bit of a contradiction in that. Most free software kind of guys don't wait to be asked to share their IP. They just PD or copyleft it.

 

And I agree with AJ that the modding scene would be better off if this was encouraged more. Nowadays, due to the outrage against mod theft, it seems as if modders are all about demarbleizing, DRM'ing their stuff, or shouting at the top of their lungs that they have copyright. Sure, we do, but what of it? Let's share that too, is what I say.

 

[edit]

 

And the stupid forum message editor is on the blink again. That's the third of my posts it's eaten.

 

As a quick paraphrase: these days I'm probably more sympathetic to the Free Software ideals than slavishly adhering to Stallman's Four Freedoms. I've been trolled by too many SFS zealots for things like daring to suggest that there's nothing wrong with using NVidia drivers if you want to for that to have much traction.

 

And frankly if the the only choice on the table is siding with the copyright fundamentalists or saying "ah, do what you like! who cares what the people doing the work think?" then, reluctantly I'm going to side with the copyright nuts.

 

And I still don't see what's so terrible about calling for a little respect for these people.

[DoctaSax]

And frankly if the the only choice on the table is siding with the copyright fundamentalists or saying "ah, do what you like! who cares what the people doing the work think?" then, reluctantly I'm going to side with the copyright nuts.

That's not the only choice though. Which is precisely what bothers me about the current climate in modding post-beth.net (although that just tops off a process that's been long in the making): it reduces the copyright issue to either the people ignoring/denying it or the people insisting that they do have it, hiding their stuff or trying to drm it. I see virtually nobody saying yes, we do respect your copyright, but we cordially invite you to share it with your fellow modders. Between the stealing of stuff and the protecting of stuff, it seems as if everyone's forgetting you can just give it away too, and to encourage that.

[Jazzman]

 

And frankly if the the only choice on the table is siding with the copyright fundamentalists or saying "ah, do what you like! who cares what the people doing the work think?" then, reluctantly I'm going to side with the copyright nuts.

That's not the only choice though. Which is precisely what bothers me about the current climate in modding post-beth.net (although that just tops off a process that's been long in the making): it reduces the copyright issue to either the people ignoring/denying it or the people insisting that they do have it, hiding their stuff or trying to drm it. I see virtually nobody saying yes, we do respect your copyright, but we cordially invite you to share it with your fellow modders. Between the stealing of stuff and the protecting of stuff, it seems as if everyone's forgetting you can just give it away too, and to encourage that.

 

Why stealing in the first place, huh? Why not asking for the wanted stuff and accept the answer whatever it might be? It is quite obviously a matter of character or the total lack thereof. What I as a former modder don't like is that certain people still believe they could take whatever they want w/o much fuss according to the laws of the jungle. But the jungle is a fuckin' deadly place to be, don't they know that? What I see on the horizon are scores of ignorant people lined up for the deletion of their accounts. We have seen that before and we will see it again.

Just my 2 cts

[DocClox]

 

And frankly if the the only choice on the table is siding with the copyright fundamentalists or saying "ah, do what you like! who cares what the people doing the work think?" then, reluctantly I'm going to side with the copyright nuts.

That's not the only choice though.

 

No, of course it's not. But the vibe I'm getting at the moment is one of "if you're not with us, you're against us". And if those are the only options with which I'm presented, that's how I'm going to choose. AJ seems to think that I'm part of the problem by virtue of not being part what he sees as the solution. You don't appear to think much of my commitment Free Software because I haven't yet slapped an explicit copyleft licence on my mods. Right now, I feel like every time I try and find a moderate position, someone comes along and tells me off for Not Doing It Right.

 

I see virtually nobody saying yes, we do respect your copyright, but we cordially invite you to share it with your fellow modders. Between the stealing of stuff and the protecting of stuff, it seems as if everyone's forgetting you can just give it away too, and to encourage that.

I'm more than happy to endorse that viewpoint. If you want to plant a flag in the middle ground and argue for sanity here, I'm happy to stand by you. But I doubt we'll get much traction while there are people out there uploading other people's work to beth.net and posting going "We just stole your stu-uff! Nyaa-nyaa-ne-poo-poo!"

[gregathit]

The issue that is driving everyone nuts is there is no right answer on modding.  

 

I personally don't demand anything from folks that use my stuff.  I don't appreciate them stealing and slapping their name on it, but at the end of the day, I am not bothered enough to lose any sleep or do jack shit about it.  That is purely my philosophy and I don't expect that anyone will agree with me.  I guess you might lump me in with the free source group.....kinda.

 

Those that wish to build in prohibitive measures to prevent mod theft, well, that is their choice and really none of my business.  While it seems to me to be silly to take on that much more work, it just isn't my concern.

 

We mod because it makes us happy, at the end of the day, that is really all that matters.  If adding a layer of security to your mod is what keeps you modding and happy, then do it.  Fuck anyone who wants to demand one thing or another.  When their check clears your bank THEN their voice will actually be worth listening to.  Until then, dial those folks down, crank up the music and get back to modding!!!  

[Guest]

...

I personally don't demand anything from folks that use my stuff.  I don't appreciate them stealing and slapping their name on it, but at the end of the day, I am not bothered enough to lose any sleep or do jack shit about it.  That is purely my philosophy and I don't expect that anyone will agree with me....

 

You never know...

And I have exactly your same position.

[DoctaSax]

Why stealing in the first place, huh? Why not asking for the wanted stuff and accept the answer whatever it might be?

Not sure how that relates to my post. People shouldn't take what they're not allowed to take. But I prefer to allow people to take my stuff  (with or without conditions, depending on the mod).

 

You don't appear to think much of my commitment Free Software because I haven't yet slapped an explicit copyleft licence on my mods. Right now, I feel like every time I try and find a moderate position, someone comes along and tells me off for Not Doing It Right.

Sorry about that. You do what you want of course. I still believe that an explicit license, or some note that says similar in real language, is more likely to encourage people copying off you. It's also still valid when you're not around to grant permission in person, which is a  practical concern scene-wide. I wager there are many ex-modders out there who wouldn't have a problem with people improving, patching, fixing or re-uploading their stuff, but have made it disallowed to do so by never saying they would allow it.

 

I'm more than happy to endorse that viewpoint. If you want to plant a flag in the middle ground and argue for sanity here, I'm happy to stand by you. But I doubt we'll get much traction while there are people out there uploading other people's work to beth.net and posting going "We just stole your stu-uff! Nyaa-nyaa-ne-poo-poo!"

There's clearly an issue with enforcement at the moment, and only enforcement can ever fix it. What concerns me most is how it seems to affect modding as a culture, where we seem to have no other choice but to stand behind reactions based on not or limited sharing. While it's obviously bad form to tell people what to do with their own stuff, I do think it's necessary to occasionally remind them that they can just give it away too, that the option is there and has much going for it.

 

I agree it's difficult to argue these things in the current climate. But with so many people going "don't touch my stuff", as a reaction, I just think somebody ought to still speak up for sharing our stuff, as a philosophy.

 

Until then, dial those folks down, crank up the music and get back to modding!!!

Alright, alright, back to a project that's gonna take me another year and that probably nobody's gonna want to take from me, again, no matter how much I insist. I can't even give my stuff away.  

[GrimReaper]

 Dumb people are easier to manipulate and easier to lie to.

 

Yeah like that lie that console users steal mods when in reality you need a PC and own FO4 on PC to even use the CK which you need to upload mods for consoles. Can you imagine people still believe that?

 

Or when people try to sneak in politics in their posts despite it being against the rules? Some people really are something different.

[Zor2k13]

Sorry but this time the politics thing is like right outside your door sort of thing for most people not me but still it is really really big and I can't ignore it. Trying not to post it but dammit that shit is going to be bad so I will try to stay on topic here...

 

You think those restrictions stop console kiddies and their pals from doing whatever they want? They just call up their friend that has a pc and get them to do the uploading then make a youtube video saying dumb things about how women are supposed to be screwed all the time by everyone (that one guy is crazy) and we all have to live near people like that. Dumb is spreading because other people want it to spread. The only other thing that makes sense is that a lot of this shit is clique high school behavior that goes around in modding circles and nexus is no saint either for that sort of thing.

 

 

EDIT

 

The only way to resolve this whole thing is for people to break up into like minded private modding sites like the chinese and koreans do. I really hate to say that but it is what it is.

[GrimReaper]

Sorry but this time the politics thing is like right outside your door sort of thing for most people not me but still it is really really big and I can't ignore it. Trying not to post it but dammit that shit is going to be bad so I will try to stay on topic here...

 

You think those restrictions stop console kiddies and their pals from doing whatever they want? They just call up their friend that has a pc and get them to do the uploading then make a youtube video saying dumb things about how women are supposed to be screwed all the time by everyone (that one guy is crazy) and we all have to live near people like that. Dumb is spreading because other people want it to spread. The only other thing that makes sense is that a lot of this shit is clique high school behavior that goes around in modding circles and nexus is no saint either for that sort of thing.

 

 

EDIT

 

The only way to resolve this whole thing is for people to break up into like minded private modding sites like the chinese and koreans do. I really hate to say that but it is what it is.

 

In case you haven't noticed, the irony of your post is that you call other people stupid based on what you yourself do. Not only that, now you're weaving additional bullshit around a lie so you don't have to drop it and can pretend it's still true.

 

You know that software piracy in all its forms is something that plagued PC gaming since the very beginning? You know that cheats are something that can ruin any multiplayer game on PC? You know that goldfarmers, keysellers and the crimes associated with it like stealing credit card information are a thing that almost exclusively affect PC gaming? That people that play on PC need to be stupid enough to actually believe the information they provide to shady websites are safe enough to use those services? If people on PC were smarter than any other group none of these problems would be a reality right now. But they are. They always will be. There's enough people on PC, like any other group, that are stupid little fucks who don't care about anything else than that what they want right now. Doesn't matter if it is pirated games, instant gratification through cheats or uploading poached mods to gain that little bit of e-fame.

[Zor2k13]

What exactly am I doing I don't get it?

 

People do actually get smarter when they have to figure out something more complicated that turning on a console. When you take complicated things away from society and then the next generation of people come up they don't even know it existed so they don't develop the same understandings and skills needed to use that something complicated. Most people don't even want to know how to fix something now and instead throw it away and buy another one.

 

People that write cheats for multiplayer are bad yes but can you write a cheat for multiplayer? Even though what they are doing is bad they learned something complex. Even worse, the people that write viruses yeah they are some scum bags but if they did not exist then the antivirus and security software companies would be virtually non existent and terrible at security. The forever game of cat and mouse between them has pushed the development of security software and copyright protection software a lot and may even push some products like adobe flash out of the market soon and replace it with HTML5. Am I advocating software piracy? nope but do people do it? yep.

 

If nobody knew how to make a cheat or a crack or a virus it would not increase sales of software of any kind the prices of software would always cap off the market because x amount of people will simply never value software of any kind at x price or higher same thing goes for music and movies or anything else. People have their own understandings of what something is worth nothing can change that no amount of brainwashing by public schools or political BS will ever change that in anyone. Consoles don't really do anything for people except help them chill and get on youtube in some fight game tournament or whatever but computers bring about all kinds of jobs and skills and knowledge.

 

Perfect example of what people were like when they really wanted computers was back in 1995 when everyone and their grandma was lined up around every store two times over to buy a copy of windows 95. Fast forward to today and people line up for a cell phone or some ugly shoes. Computers are a burdened utility now instead of something interesting to people and they find comfort and drama on their phones instead. My point is the caliber of people it is getting worse and along with that intelligence too. This is not by accident it is by design.

[Jazzman]

 

Why stealing in the first place, huh? Why not asking for the wanted stuff and accept the answer whatever it might be?

Not sure how that relates to my post. People shouldn't take what they're not allowed to take. But I prefer to allow people to take my stuff  (with or without conditions, depending on the mod).

 

So you still believe to be in control of the situation, making exclusions, establishing conditions, if necessary... hmmm. It doesn't work that way, I'm sorry to say. The mindset of a thief knows of no negotiations /w the mod maker about his targets of interest, which mod might be granted for takeover and which one might not or at least not in full. Your crops either get harvested in locust fashion or not, depending on the thief's interest. At the end of the day everything boils down to the question what value the own mod has for oneself as the maker and what role the maker claims for himself in the process of getting harvested...

[DocClox]

I still believe that an explicit license, or some note that says similar in real language, is more likely to encourage people copying off you. It's also still valid when you're not around to grant permission in person, which is a  practical concern scene-wide. I wager there are many ex-modders out there who wouldn't have a problem with people improving, patching, fixing or re-uploading their stuff, but have made it disallowed to do so by never saying they would allow it.

Hmm... The main thing that discouraged me from applying some sort of explicit copyleft is that it seemed like a bit of a dick move in a community where everyone seems to be managing quite nicely without it. It feels like I'm saying "I don't trust you lot, so I'm laying down the law in advance".

 

I suppose we could go the DeviantArt route and have a drop-down on the mod upload form which gives a selection of licenses to choose from, and if we did that we'd get more copyleft licensing and folks like me wouldn't feel more at ease applying licenses to existing work.

 

That said, I think I'd be reluctant to mess with something that seems to be working quite well. On the other hand, the way the wider modding scene seems to be going, we might need to consider some such measures.

 

There's clearly an issue with enforcement at the moment, and only enforcement can ever fix it.

Well, if enforcement is required, can we at least agree that we probably shouldn't encourage the sort of behavior that makes that enforcement necessary? I got into this line of debate discussing the semantics of "stealing". I'm all for drawing a clear distinction between theft and copyright violation, but I still don't think the problem will go away if we redefine it as "mod sharing".

[zzz72w3r]

 

 

DarkOne, the Nexus site owner was having a bit of a rant about the situation earlier today, http://www.nexusmods.com/games/news/12815/?

 

I would not call it "a rant" - there is nothing in that article that I do not agree with. 

 

Well, the seven or eight paragraphs he spent swearing at the reader on the grounds that they might possibly be a "PC Master Race" goofball was a little bit ranty. As were all the paragraphs he spent patting himself on the back for doing such a good job in coding the Nexus, especially in comparison to Bethesda.net. I mean I too agree with most of what he said (once you filter out the swearing and the self-promotion anyway) but it's definitely a rant.

 

 

That said, I think he's wrong on one point. Bethesda definitely do claim title to the mods you make with the CK. The FO4 EULA grants them title to any mods you may make with Bethesda provided tools or resources and you can't legally use the CK without having FO4 and therefore being bound by the terms of the FO4 EULA. Bethesda have even said as much: early takedown requests were met with the response that Bethesda own all the mods on bethesda.net.

 

 

As such, it's an interesting question as to the legality of uploading someone else's mod to beth.net. If Bethesda are the IP holders and if they consent (however implicitly) to your uploading of another creators work, how is it illegal? Don't get me wrong - it's morally reprehensible and a really stupid move from Bethesda. I just think we should talk about the problem as it is. Wishful thinking isn't going to help.

 

 

That is an interesting point.  Nobody gives a crap regard the legality of mod theft on beth.net as long as mods are free, however, we all know the end game is paid mods. 

 

*I am not a lawyer. 

 

Now consider this.  If Beth claims all rights on everything that uploads to beth.net as theirs then legally they don't owe the person uploading the mod a single cent if the mod was sold.  Obviously this will result in no one ever upload mods to beth.net or even provide mods publicly for Beth games so they will have to share revenue.  However, the moment Beth does share revenue with mod creators the company concedes the uploaders' IP rights.  Since the IP technically belonged to Beth until reversion effectively Beth was in possession and sale of stolen property.  Don't be surprise if the EULA gets updated to shed Beth of such potential legal liability.  The new one likely will give Beth exclusive rights to use said mod for itself in any form and into perpetuity without claiming ownership (or the legal liability), plus a ironclad consent of non-compete surrendering to Beth.  The mod creators still own the IP but Beth has all commercial rights.  Basically we will be back to how it all was as far as EULA and IP rights of mods.

 

What is the difference you ask?  The current scheme allows the person whose mod was stolen to sue Beth if paid mod becomes a thing.  With the new, or really the old scheme, the person whose mod was stolen can only sue the person Beth hands the shared revenue to and not Beth.

 

*Again, I am not a lawyer.

[Guest]

 

Sorry, "supposed" by whom? Is there some rulebook that specifies the conditions under which I may or may not release my work?

Nexus. I mainly post there.

That represents the view of you and you only, not all modders

Yeah, cos we're here to express our opinion and not to express the opinion of the other ones, I think you too. However what I stated about apples is not much absurd, semantically speaking. I guess if it was the opinion of everyone, there was less drama and more modding, just like in the "old days", if someone still remembers them. Less people crying on corners everytime (mod picker anyone?)

An implicit payback like having someone say "hey dude, nice work!" from time to time. Are you really going to try and tell me that is exactly equivalent to demanding an email address up front and selling it to spammers? Because I really can't see it myself.

Well, you asked for kudos, not someone that thanks you. A kudo on nexus is a material gesture which implies to click on the profile and *kudo* him, I thought you were referring to that. My point is that there's nothing bad on a courtesy, but there's something bad if you ask for something back when you're supposed to give and not ask anything back (which is also a nexus rule - excluding being civil of course). Being naive, I really believe that if you give you are not expecting anything back at first, or it looses its meaning.Let's open a "technical" parenthesis. If you take a look in these days on the FONV section, you'll see someone asking for a certain mod because it was taken down from nexus, and you'll see someone post it on some Mega drive. This is a scene that I've seen more than once during the years. There was even a thread with Skyrim Steam stuff if you remember. Well, without going in some debate to say what's right and what's not, let's face the reality: I doubt that those that will take the mod from there will spend one minute to even try to contact the original modder in some ways and tell him a thank you.Absurd extreme case which came out with paid mods - (someone) had 400k downloads and 4 donations, if you see a donation as a gesture to say thank you it's a very small ratio. But hey let's don't talk about money, let's talk about a banal gesture like a click to say thank you, an endorsement - absurd extreme case on nexus: even if they kick you the endorse window in your face everytime you download a new mod, still the endorsement ratio has an average of 1/10 on an optimistic case.These imho are values that can't be ignored, like... on 100 downloads you receive 1 thank you, this means that if someone steals the mod and makes other 100 downloads they will receive a single thank you that instead should have had your name on it. Is it such a bad deal? Isn't what porters usually do? *wooohoooo this was mean*A mod requires some feedback, back and forth, modder<>user, to release new features, to narrow down bugs, to expand new ideas... Now, I don't think that someone who takes a mod and releases in some other place will also take care of this. After a while, I expect: A - This "thief" will start taking care of the mod, releasing fixes on its own, which means that even under a bad start in the end you will have a gain in the community (like... 0,1% of chance?) ; or B - people will require assistance, start roaming and surfing, looking to someone that will give support to solve their problems, and all the paths will lead to the original modder. In the end, if you didn't have your mod "stolen" maybe you wouldn't have gained these people C - people who require assistance and are too lazy to surf, they'll wander on guides, and those guides won't link to the stolen mods but to the original ones for sure, to not loose delicacy in the whole delicate balance of the delicate community

generally I'd be flattered...Do you have a problem with that?

Which is why I asked you, I was feeling that. Me too.However that last sentence sounds pretty much a threat, like on movies, before that people starts beating.

People are seeing others claim credit for their own hard work. Others are having their names dragged through the mud for failing to support mods on platforms where the mods cannot run for technical reasons. I'm having a hard time seeing how that is going to result in either less drama or more fun.

Which is somewhat my point, and I feel DS' point tooI feel that the issue resides in this, in the distorted view of the "problem".First, let's change the word "work" with "hobby", because summer's coming, weather's hot and that could sound very bad to those that are melting down 12 hours a day on the highways to put the boiling asphalt on them to fill the holes.Then, let's erase all that "names dragges through the mud", it's not much serious unless we're aiming to become youtubers paid to be di*ks.

I don't appreciate them stealing and slapping their name on it, but at the end of the day, I am not bothered enough to lose any sleep or do jack shit about it. That is purely my philosophy and I don't expect that anyone will agree with me....

I do agree. It's definitely a better way to explain it compared to mine.

And I agree with AJ that the modding scene would be better off if this was encouraged more.

It's not like this is wheat from my sack, I changed my view with time. Who knows what'll happen in the future, maybe in 2 years I'll be the one crying on some corner. But I more expect I'll quit all this drama for good.At start I was completely in that very same wave, all for the "respect"... as happy user, I was thinking "I could not agree, but who am I to judge the modder's will, I respect that". Then with time I realized it wasn't such a great deal. I think one of the main factors that influenced was realizing that there's far too many people that pull the triggers of modding and noone knows them, and still everything works very fine with them ghosts.Screw the respect. More sun and water, like for plants. Or the whole modding scene withers.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

To throw fuel on to the fire, Bethesda is now releasing FO3 and FONV for XB1 that are likely going to have mod support. Like I asked in another thread, how many mods from those games use Script Extender or Master files? How will the console community react when they learn that many will never be able to be used on their systems? For that matter, how the hell does Bethesda think this is going to benefit them when console gamers learn the ugly truth about some of the most popular mods not being portable?