Prison Overhaul Patched (LE)

[worik]

Maybe we should get a wiki somewhere to put all that informative stuff, otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll have to repeat yourself in the future

 

I did not realize there were a confusion as to what a stackdump is though, so I may have not express myself correctly.

​

​A very good idea! I for myself would like to read up more about mods, that use e.g. cloaking spells. Either to avoid them or to find out which features are affected and if I can turn them of.

​All for the sake of a stable playthrough

​

@Wax: ​And thank you very much for that very good explanation!

​

[Reesewow]

 

It has made things a bit clearer, is this limit possible to expand? Or am I stuck.

I've managed to pull off another stack dump during a POP scene, which seems to consist of 99% POP scripts. Which makes me wonder if I have something set too low if a single mod caused it to overflow.

 

I also started another new game without touching POP, no stack dumps and the file size is drastically different.

 

I've also tried to limit cloak scripts to an absolute minimum in every single one of my playthroughs and whenever I do get an issue, it is exactly because of a mod that uses too many of them.

 

 

The biggest issue is that if you are trying to recover your save that has had many many stack dumps (it was likely doing it way before you posted your log), so the script environment POP is trying to run in is pretty broken.  Even if you remove the troublesome mods that might have started the whole thing, other mods that are normally low impact may be having issues now that clog up the stack.  You can't really *clean* a save like that, you can just try to keep the bugs to a minimum (and probably forgo heavily script based mods like POP).

 

Unfortunately since we are talking about Oldrim and not SSE, even a very powerful system doesn't help that much when it comes to avoiding stack dumps.  The scripting system can only use a certain amount of your computer's power to do it's work.  Your framerate might be buttery smooth, but the old scripting system is choking itself.

 

The only real solution if you really want a save file to never get screwed up while running lots of scripts is to watch your papyrus log like a hawk and check it after every play session for stack dumps and errors.  If you had a stack dump you would need to reload a save before it happened and avoid it if you can, or reduce your script load.

[Yuuen]

 

 

It has made things a bit clearer, is this limit possible to expand? Or am I stuck.

I've managed to pull off another stack dump during a POP scene, which seems to consist of 99% POP scripts. Which makes me wonder if I have something set too low if a single mod caused it to overflow.

 

I also started another new game without touching POP, no stack dumps and the file size is drastically different.

 

I've also tried to limit cloak scripts to an absolute minimum in every single one of my playthroughs and whenever I do get an issue, it is exactly because of a mod that uses too many of them.

 

 

The biggest issue is that if you are trying to recover your save that has had many many stack dumps (it was likely doing it way before you posted your log), so the script environment POP is trying to run in is pretty broken.  Even if you remove the troublesome mods that might have started the whole thing, other mods that are normally low impact may be having issues now that clog up the stack.  You can't really *clean* a save like that, you can just try to keep the bugs to a minimum (and probably forgo heavily script based mods like POP).

 

Unfortunately since we are talking about Oldrim and not SSE, even a very powerful system doesn't help that much when it comes to avoiding stack dumps.  The scripting system can only use a certain amount of your computer's power to do it's work.  Your framerate might be buttery smooth, but the old scripting system is choking itself.

 

The only real solution if you really want a save file to never get screwed up while running lots of scripts is to watch your papyrus log like a hawk and check it after every play session for stack dumps and errors.  If you had a stack dump you would need to reload a save before it happened and avoid it if you can, or reduce your script load.

 

I've been told that disabling logging helps to avoid stack dumps. Which fits my experience of having none of the issues people speak about before I enabled logging for this issue.

[bicobus]

What is important here is that as soon as you get one stack dump, chances are it will snowball because other scripts will be waiting for the result of something that got removed. Or nothing bad will occur and you won't notice anything wrong. And to top it all, you're trying to edit your savegame to make it work again, which is doable but a bad idea and possibly a waste of time.

 

Disabling logging simply put less strain on the engine, it doesn't have to write down to log or monitor thus things go generally faster. It isn't a magic cure-all though, especially in your situation of having an old patched up save file.

[Punga]

 

... snipped because irrelevant...

 

.... irrelevant..... (and probably forgo heavily script based mods like POP).

 

.....

 

Gotta have my POPs... bitch.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt6JI9gzECo

[Yuuen]

What is important here is that as soon as you get one stack dump, chances are it will snowball because other scripts will be waiting for the result of something that got removed. Or nothing bad will occur and you won't notice anything wrong. And to top it all, you're trying to edit your savegame to make it work again, which is doable but a bad idea and possibly a waste of time.

 

Disabling logging simply put less strain on the engine, it doesn't have to write down to log or monitor thus things go generally faster. It isn't a magic cure-all though, especially in your situation of having an old patched up save file.

Old patched up save?

 

I started a new game 3 posts ago and as I've said. Way. Too. Many. Times. Already.

Before this POP issue, before this whole logging exposure, I was playing a perfectly stable game. The only consistency with the stack dumps is POP and to a lesser degree, enabling logging. Since, as I just said in the earlier post, I did not have any issues of anything breaking randomly before I turned on logging. This was on a still relatively new save, but still progressed through several heavy sequences and scripted scenes from other mods with zero latency and zero hangs/frozen scenes.

[Reesewow]

 

Old patched up save?

 

I started a new game 3 posts ago and as I've said. Way. Too. Many. Times. Already.

Before this POP issue, before this whole logging exposure, I was playing a perfectly stable game. The only consistency with the stack dumps is POP and to a lesser degree, enabling logging. Since, as I just said in the earlier post, I did not have any issues of anything breaking randomly before I turned on logging. This was on a still relatively new save, but still progressed through several heavy sequences and scripted scenes from other mods with zero latency and zero hangs/frozen scenes.

 

 

Obviously you can play however you want, people are just offering suggestions to help you out.  The thing is that *most* stack dumps are invisible unless they happen at a really bad time or kill a really obvious script, but the damage they can cause carries forward and can build up in a save file.  Logging can add some stress to the system, but without it you may never know if you had a stack dump or a mod is having serious errors (and if running logging is what pushes your game over the edge, it was probably too close to it already).  

 

Its not even always mods that can stress the system, some vanilla scenes can cause stack dumps easily (having your entire inventory removed before the Thalmor embassy while being a pack-rat and the companions initiation meet-up seem to be almost guaranteed stack dumps for me on any playthrough if I'm not careful).  You could get away with a lot with script problems and have the game feel stable, but eventually a mod might be the straw that breaks the camel's back (in this case it was POP).

[Yuuen]

 

 

Old patched up save?

 

I started a new game 3 posts ago and as I've said. Way. Too. Many. Times. Already.

Before this POP issue, before this whole logging exposure, I was playing a perfectly stable game. The only consistency with the stack dumps is POP and to a lesser degree, enabling logging. Since, as I just said in the earlier post, I did not have any issues of anything breaking randomly before I turned on logging. This was on a still relatively new save, but still progressed through several heavy sequences and scripted scenes from other mods with zero latency and zero hangs/frozen scenes.

 

 

Obviously you can play however you want, people are just offering suggestions to help you out.  The thing is that *most* stack dumps are invisible unless they happen at a really bad time or kill a really obvious script, but the damage they can cause carries forward and can build up in a save file.  Logging can add some stress to the system, but without it you may never know if you had a stack dump or a mod is having serious errors (and if running logging is what pushes your game over the edge, it was probably too close to it already).  

 

Its not even always mods that can stress the system, some vanilla scenes can cause stack dumps easily (having your entire inventory removed before the Thalmor embassy while being a pack-rat and the companions initiation meet-up seem to be almost guaranteed stack dumps for me on any playthrough if I'm not careful).  You could get away with a lot with script problems and have the game feel stable, but eventually a mod might be the straw that breaks the camel's back (in this case it was POP).

 

But that's not really the case, POP seems to do it by itself. On a new game, Alternate starting straight into a POP scenario, it stack dumps during a cage sequence. I check the log, 99% of the dumped stacks are from POP, so it couldn't have been anything but POP.

And again, I don't have script problems. It's not that "I don't see them" or "They're building up and then something suddenly sets it off", these issues are just not there. I don't understand why people don't understand that. It specifically only happens within a POP scene. On another new game after, where I don't touch POP there is no stack dump, despite still going through some heavy sequences.

[Reesewow]

 

But that's not really the case, POP seems to do it by itself. On a new game, Alternate starting straight into a POP scenario, it stack dumps during a cage sequence. I check the log, 99% of the dumped stacks are from POP, so it couldn't have been anything but POP.

 

And again, I don't have script problems. It's not that "I don't see them" or "They're building up and then something suddenly sets it off", these issues are just not there. I don't understand why people don't understand that. It specifically only happens within a POP scene. On another new game after, where I don't touch POP there is no stack dump, despite still going through some heavy sequences.

 

 

People were talking about the case of turning logging on after having issues with a mod and seeing stack dumps, which very likely means you were stack dumping before you started logging.  If you have a save from before you installed POP, and it wasn't having script issues before that, your file may still be fine script-wise (or a lot less messed up anyway).  If you can uninstall POP and fall back to that save file and see no problems in your logs for awhile, the save may be fine.

 

If a new save file with your load order + POP causes stack dumps while running POP scenes, then unfortunately POP might just be too script heavy for your load order.  That happening basically means your background of script load is being processed too slowly for the heavy load during that scene to be dealt with fast enough.  Especially if you can run the same load order without POP with no problems in the log.  Others can run the mod without issue but they may be using less other scripted mods than you or the mods they use don't run many scripts while POP is doing its thing.

 

At that point if it was my game, I'd be making the decision if I wanted POP in my game enough to remove several other script-heavy mods.  Hope that helps.

[bicobus]

If you have a proper log, can reproduce the problems, and suspect there is an issue with POP itself then please attach your log to a message with a summary of how it happened. Only doing so will enable us to have a closure.

 

Keep in mind that we don't know how your game plays like, nor do we know the load order (I haven't seen it nor looked for it). All this time I mostly have been guessing around

[Yuuen]

 

 

But that's not really the case, POP seems to do it by itself. On a new game, Alternate starting straight into a POP scenario, it stack dumps during a cage sequence. I check the log, 99% of the dumped stacks are from POP, so it couldn't have been anything but POP.

 

And again, I don't have script problems. It's not that "I don't see them" or "They're building up and then something suddenly sets it off", these issues are just not there. I don't understand why people don't understand that. It specifically only happens within a POP scene. On another new game after, where I don't touch POP there is no stack dump, despite still going through some heavy sequences.

 

 

People were talking about the case of turning logging on after having issues with a mod and seeing stack dumps, which very likely means you were stack dumping before you started logging.  If you have a save from before you installed POP, and it wasn't having script issues before that, your file may still be fine script-wise (or a lot less messed up anyway).  If you can uninstall POP and fall back to that save file and see no problems in your logs for awhile, the save may be fine.

 

If a new save file with your load order + POP causes stack dumps while running POP scenes, then unfortunately POP might just be too script heavy for your load order.  That happening basically means your background of script load is being processed too slowly for the heavy load during that scene to be dealt with fast enough.  Especially if you can run the same load order without POP with no problems in the log.  Others can run the mod without issue but they may be using less other scripted mods than you or the mods they use don't run many scripts while POP is doing its thing.

 

At that point if it was my game, I'd be making the decision if I wanted POP in my game enough to remove several other script-heavy mods.  Hope that helps.

 

I've already decided to get rid of beeing female for now, as it's not so much script heavy as it is, kind of broken.

It came up a bunch in the first stack dump also. The background load doesn't feel like the issue, I said before that it is more a sign of broken mods.

Since my outdated version of XMPSE had over 1600 instances in that stack dump and beeing female had a good portion of the rest. Since I updated XMPSE, its presence in my logs has become scarce so it only made sense to remove the other. I'll enable logging again later and try the game out, I have a good feeling my issue is fixed. As even removing just a couple of those trouble mods and updating XMPSE the game has become much more responsive with certain things, but like beeing female, they weren't necessarily "heavy" as they were broken, so that's what I've been targeting.

[Yuuen]

If you have a proper log, can reproduce the problems, and suspect there is an issue with POP itself then please attach your log to a message with a summary of how it happened. Only doing so will enable us to have a closure.

 

Keep in mind that we don't know how your game plays like, nor do we know the load order (I haven't seen it nor looked for it). All this time I mostly have been guessing around

I replicated a stack dump during POP twice, which after looking through, you guys might be right but not exactly, it may not specifically be POP. "Broken" mods are being the problem, not necessarily the script load in general. If XMPSE was working right, it wouldn't have put 1600+ script instances in at once to be dumped out, same with beeing female that also had a large number in that dump, despite my constant restriction of the plugin's script weight. I've updated one and things got a lot better, I've removed the other and I'm going to see how it goes.

 

My load order is quite massive, 237 plugins on the surface with 4 merged plugins which consist of about 10-20+ each. I have a few big DLC sized mods like beyond reach, Bruma, Wyrmstooth and Dragonborn gallery. But I handle it fine.

load order.txt

[Inte]

Aw, too bad you don't get to run all the mods you want, but what @WaxenFigure said about it being a game engine limitation rather than a hardware one, is correct. 

Oldrim is quite limited in how many scripts it can fire at once although if you run 237+ mods ... I mean c'mon what do you expect? 

[Inte]

 

Let's see,

 

1. Remember this? http://www.loverslab.com/topic/46551-prison-overhaul-v033-patches/page-57#entry1516727 

 

3. If it is a quest item, then the corresponding MCM option in DDe must also be activated. You know ... the one behind a password. 

 

4. That is by design. 

 

 

1/ Soz... I totally forgot about that (it's me age dear ), I'll test it out. Probably got skewed again when I upgraded to ZAZ 7

EDIT: Yep that fixed it

 

3/ I've probably not been clear, it was just a generic chastity belt not a quest item but the message that it cannot be removed still appears on screen even though it has actually been removed by the Jailer

EDIT: I just tested on 8s and it does it there too, removed the chastity belt but still displays the message it can't be removed. I've just not tested it that way before. Not an issue as it's cosmetic though a little misleading

 

4/ Could we have a toggle for that please if it's easy to implement

EDIT: Tested back on 8s and it seems the keys are only removed if the pc is actually wearing a device. I usually remove devices asap so never noticed it before

 

 

3. I will test that, because that should not happen. 

 

4. It's super easy to implement, but I rather not - it's a feature I will never use and It's way more immersive that the captor will keep those rare and hard to make restraints keys.   

 

 

... snipped because irrelevant...

 

.... irrelevant..... (and probably forgo heavily script based mods like POP).

 

.....

 

Gotta have my POPs... bitch.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt6JI9gzECo

 

 

Damn you! Now I have to watch Breaking Bad again.   

[Yuuen]

Aw, too bad you don't get to run all the mods you want, but what @WaxenFigure said about it being a game engine limitation rather than a hardware one, is correct. 

Oldrim is quite limited in how many scripts it can fire at once although if you run 237+ mods ... I mean c'mon what do you expect? 

I mean, I don't know what you're talking about. I can run whatever I want, my load order proves that. POP is the one that occasionally wont run coz it blows itself up. If i get close to the plugin limit, instead of ditching plugins I just merge them down and I will continue to do so. As literally everything works just fine.

Does suck that it's an oldrim limitation though, as it seems like SSE isn't really going anywhere.

 

But all of that is sort of irrelevant now that I've removed a couple problem mods and it has already shown improvements, since they had broken scripts.

I was holding onto them because I liked them knowing they were broken, so I will accept that fault. But either way I'll see how things go.

[worik]

​

 

 

(..)

4. That is by design.

 

​(..)

4/ Could we have a toggle for that please if it's easy to implement

EDIT: Tested back on 8s and it seems the keys are only removed if the pc is actually wearing a device. I usually remove devices asap so never noticed it before

 

(..)

4. It's super easy to implement, but I rather not - it's a feature I will never use and It's way more immersive that the captor will keep those rare and hard to make restraints keys. 

​

​As an opinion: I feel totally ok with the confiscated DD keys. It makes them the same forbidden items as stolen things.. It feels natural that way

​

​As an idea:

• confiscate DD keys always (with the exception of quest items of course!)
• store them somewhere in a container in or near the jail (e.g. in the room of the steward)
• now the player has the option to try to "steal" them back or leave without.
• If the container gets resetted with the associated cell, there they go ... "Dear Player, be quicker next time.."
• ​Maybe  throw in a devilish dialogue to make the player aware of the confiscation ...something like "Oh, I almost forgot. Scum like you has no need for keys. They are now the Jarl's property."

[bicobus]

DD keys don't exist naturally in the world, they are added either by DCL or could be purchased through captured dreams. If you plan to confiscate DD keys, as a balance you should also plan to give some to the user. A small shop, or add them to the fences shop list or something. I mean, it make sense that thiefs would possess keys to escape restrains right? It's just a question of where to hide them.

[worik]

DD keys don't exist naturally in the world, they are added either by DCL or could be purchased through captured dreams. (..)

​

also  "​DD for the masses" and maybe even some others .. So they become quite natural, depending on the active DD mods

​It's just a question of balance and what the player prefers on how frustrating it should be to get them ... and to loose them ... or to see them in sight  but still unreachable

[bicobus]

DD for the masses hasn't been updated in a while and has some issues though. If I recall correctly, males would get items even though you made them exempt. Here I take the point of view of if the user do not have a simple way to get new keys. If the user has to travel across skyrim to get some keys, that'll just be simply and plainly annoying.

[worik]

Oh, I am not suggesting to remove them ... i am suggesting to put them a bit farther away as in my own pocket. And of course with the idea in mind: Don't get caught by the guards with DD keys in the pocket. Almost the same as with stolen goods.

I travelled all of skyrim for a key? So I use it now, hide it somewhere safe or must not get caught for a crime.

But maybe I am far too much a sneaky thief  to see a problem in that.

[Bane Master]

 

DD keys don't exist naturally in the world, they are added either by DCL or could be purchased through captured dreams. (..)

​

also  "​DD for the masses" and maybe even some others .. So they become quite natural, depending on the active DD mods

​It's just a question of balance and what the player prefers on how frustrating it should be to get them ... and to loose them ... or to see them in sight  but still unreachable

 

 

Deviously Enchanted Chests  - oh and something new once the dD team finish the new version of the framework 

[Slorm]

 

​

​As an opinion: I feel totally ok with the confiscated DD keys. It makes them the same forbidden items as stolen things.. It feels natural that way

​

​As an idea:

• confiscate DD keys always (with the exception of quest items of course!)
• store them somewhere in a container in or near the jail (e.g. in the room of the steward)
• now the player has the option to try to "steal" them back or leave without.
• If the container gets resetted with the associated cell, there they go ... "Dear Player, be quicker next time.."
• ​Maybe  throw in a devilish dialogue to make the player aware of the confiscation ...something like "Oh, I almost forgot. Scum like you has no need for keys. They are now the Jarl's property."

 

 

That's a good idea. The container would need to be somewhere where the pc has a chance to steal them without being seen.

 

Alternately, rather than having them as stolen property just put them randomly in a container somewhere in the Jarl's palace. The caveat for this is it has to be somewhere that isn't quest locked (e.g. Pelagius Wing, Whispering Door)

 

[Slorm]

Bug Report

 

Just got banged up in Dawnstar and can confirm Punga's report that whipping leaves the pc flabbergasted, also the ceiling chain did not release the pc after punishment (though she could move around oddly). Both got cleared by the next punishment.

 

Noticed a few ctd's due to that annoying C++ runtime error, Dawnstar jail has always been a bit prone to them though

 

EDIT: Another Bug

 

Again at Dawnstar jail though I don't know if it's just specific to there.

 

I thought first of all this was just a glitch but it happened a couple of times more when testing, basically if there is a female guard then the scripts don't fire, no punishments and no release either.

 

The gender of the Jailer doesn't matter just the guard. It works perfectly with a male guard though

 

EDIT2

 

I went back to an earlier game in case it was an issue with 3DNPC but everytime I get get jailed in Dawnstar it's always a male guard now. I'm starting to get pissed off now (actually I'm getting the fucking hump), is there a way to force the guard's gender to test this properly?

 

EDIT3

 

LOL yet another edit. I noticed some glitches creeping in on other mods (Touring Carriages and DCL). DCL is pretty rock solid as a rule but I noticed I couldn't draw a weapon after a Flashbang event which I've never seen before. I've been playing the Swamp Knight quest from Interesting NPC's (not one I usually ever play) so maybe it caused a problem in some way as the game was only around 95 hours old so rather early to start getting problems.

 

The upshot is that I've dumped this game and gone back to an earlier save which I know is stable but I can't say now that there is necessarily a problem with 8t or not as I can't force a female guard and it may have just been a borked save in any case.

 

I'll keep an eye out and let you know if it happens again.

[Punga]

 

Aw, too bad you don't get to run all the mods you want, but what @WaxenFigure said about it being a game engine limitation rather than a hardware one, is correct. 

Oldrim is quite limited in how many scripts it can fire at once although if you run 237+ mods ... I mean c'mon what do you expect?

I mean, I don't know what you're talking about. I can run whatever I want, my load order proves that. POP is the one that occasionally wont run coz it blows itself up. If i get close to the plugin limit, instead of ditching plugins I just merge them down and I will continue to do so. As literally everything works just fine.

Does suck that it's an oldrim limitation though, as it seems like SSE isn't really going anywhere.

 

But all of that is sort of irrelevant now that I've removed a couple problem mods and it has already shown improvements, since they had broken scripts.

I was holding onto them because I liked them knowing they were broken, so I will accept that fault. But either way I'll see how things go.

 

Sure you can run whatever you want, your log full of stack dumps proves that.   

 

I have been running POP since forever and not once has it "blown itself up". It's got a verbose log yes, but you can turn that off in its MCM.

[Yuuen]

 

 

Aw, too bad you don't get to run all the mods you want, but what @WaxenFigure said about it being a game engine limitation rather than a hardware one, is correct. 

Oldrim is quite limited in how many scripts it can fire at once although if you run 237+ mods ... I mean c'mon what do you expect?

I mean, I don't know what you're talking about. I can run whatever I want, my load order proves that. POP is the one that occasionally wont run coz it blows itself up. If i get close to the plugin limit, instead of ditching plugins I just merge them down and I will continue to do so. As literally everything works just fine.

Does suck that it's an oldrim limitation though, as it seems like SSE isn't really going anywhere.

 

But all of that is sort of irrelevant now that I've removed a couple problem mods and it has already shown improvements, since they had broken scripts.

I was holding onto them because I liked them knowing they were broken, so I will accept that fault. But either way I'll see how things go.

 

Sure you can run whatever you want, your log full of stack dumps proves that.   

 

I have been running POP since forever and not once has it "blown itself up". It's got a verbose log yes, but you can turn that off in its MCM.

 

Way to drag up 2-day-old drama. Nice try troll.